6L6 vrs EL34 any tone difference???????

[brianf]

Damn. I set up my Roadking channel #1 to clean and set the controls to 12:00. I had it running on 2 x 6L6.
I then set up channel #2 so it was a clone of channel #1 but running 2 x EL34.
I had my son record it. I was just playing a nice rhythm pattern over and over again and changing channels on the fly every 15 seconds or so. Did this for about 3 minutes. Sounded the same to me.

I turned up the volume and repeated this again for about another 3 minutes and no noticable tone change. I then flicked the switches so the EL 34's were running on channel #1 and the 6L6 on channel #2.
Damed if I can hear a difference.

We then listed to the recordings and neither of us could tell which was which or if there was any difference. I'll get my son to post the tracks on this thread.

brianf

[Free]

I guess I'm not too surpised of that being the case in many circuits. I hear a lot of similarity between KT77, KT66, 6L6, 6V6 and EL34 tubes - mainly the big differences (besides volume and headroom, of course) are just compression characteristics and sometimes slight variances in treble and bass response (which can be easily dialed in or out via EQ).

One tube that really seems to put it's own unique signature on amps is the el84 tube, but again, the others I mentioned have similar character. I never get what people are talking about when they say el84s are the best small tube tonal equivalent to EL34s - that I simply do not hear at all - at least not in any circuit I've heard them in. 6V6 tubes do a better low-power Marshall Plexi or JTM45 tone than el84s, for instance.

-Mike

[JamesHealey]

I can usually tell what tube type an amp has by the tone, but im pretty sure the Recto has an active tone circuit instead of a TMB passive design? I could be very wrong here? but eitherway I've found the Boogies Pre amp section colours the sound so much that it's choice of power tubes doesnt really matter.. try the same thing with a Marshall and u'd hear the difference although u'd require some modification.

[waxnsteel]

On my soundclick page, (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=420709) I have clips with all 4 channels on my RK swapping between 6L6s and EL34s, and my Budda Dual Stage 30 with EL84s and 6L6s. Not much difference. For all intents and purposes, identical. Wanna hear a big change? Change speakers.

[mesanatic]

Well that's pretty interesting and answers some questions. I know my 2 Mk series amps sound different with a pair of EL34's in the outside class A sockets. Now I keep one with all 6L6's and one mixed for a different vibe.
My Marshalls sound different too.

On the other hand I guess it has a lot to do with the circuitry because the new Fender EVH amp sounds very Marshallesque with all 6L6's and now I see that isn't that unusual. I thought it was. Still learning. Can't pick an amp based on tubes like the old days.

[EADGBE]

...6V6 tubes do a better low-power Marshall Plexi or JTM45 tone than el84s, for instance.

-MikeI read somewhere that the 6V6 was designed for early car radios. So I guess that may be why it sounds so good. It was designed specifically for music.

[tele_jas]

6L6 -
* more low end, but not as tight
* rounder, fatter sound


EL34's -
* Less low end, but tighter on the low end
* more mids
* more pronounced highs and high mids
* still fat, but not as thick as 6L6's


Over-all.... in the same amp, you won't hear much difference until you REALLY crank it up. I liked EL34's in my boogies better, especially my Roadster.

[gldtp99]

one of my 35 watt Marshall Plexi/Bogen clones was set up with cathode biased output tubes----- so switching between 6L6GC, 5881, and EL34 tubes in this amp was plug-and-play (with most sets of tubes, anyway)---- we found that the EL34's had a more pronounced midrange response with a tighter feel--- in this particular amp most preferred 6L6GC/5881's---- all the output tubes were new production; EH, Sovtek, Winged C, etc--- this was a pretty low buck/non scientific test but the difference between 6L6's and EL34's was quite obvious in this Marshall-based circuit.
This amp can be heard on the track "Die Alone" at a friend's site.
http://www.myspace.com/laddersandsnakes

The amp was recorded with no effect pedals---- guitar straight to amp for all guitar tracks on this song---- i believe that the output tubes were Sovtek 5881's ..............gldtp99

[cochese]

There are a couple of things to consider. Tubes don't sound like anything. It really has to do with the design. Marshalls were based on an American circuit that used 6L6's and they used EL34's which were more common place in Britain and hence the "EL34" Marshall tone. Now a good amp designer would be able to tweak the circuit in either direction. This is why the Rivera M100 amp I owned which used German EL34's really excelled at Fender type tones. The designers intent.

Now I only listended to your Budda clip but can tell you that with the amp running that clean you won't hear that big of a difference. If you were to turn the amp up all the way that's when you would notice a bigger difference. The EL34's would tend to compress a bit more than the 6L6's and get darker. The 6L6's should retain more upper harmonic content than the EL34's.

In the case of EL84's. They are much lower output tubes so you tend to drive them harder at the same volume levels you would be running the bigger tubes. EL84's in a typical circuit have more "chime" and upper midrange complexity. They also have more "fizz" which is why sometimes people don't like them with distortion pedals.

[Leonc]

I think it's very, very hard to describe specific differences that you'll always hear regardless of the circuit design. I.e., the context of the amp makes WHOLE lot of difference.

For example, I've historically thought of 6L6s has having more lows and more highs, more of a scooped sound and EL34s being more midrangey. But I really don't think that's accurate. I think it's a characterization of Fender vs Marshall rather than 6L6 vs EL34. I think that it may actually be the other way around in terms of the tubes' built-in capabilities.

[Free]

EL84's in a typical circuit have more "chime" and upper midrange complexity. They also have more "fizz" which is why sometimes people don't like them with distortion pedals.

That's me - I don't like el84s for OD tones in general - with or without pedals. EL84s are indeed one of the most colorizing output tube types ever. That's exactly what I don't like about el84s - that excessive chime and fizz/fuzz when driven hard. It's that overly compressed overdrive tone - even evident in the 1974/2061 Marshall circuits, not just Vox and boutique designs.

I personally like a fatter more midrange emphasized overdrive that still retains a lot of bite for leads - like a Plexi. I like brightness, just not chime, if you know what I mean. And about every single commonly used output tube, EXCEPT, el84s can get that tone optimally.

It's a personal preference - but it's also because I don't hear that el84 characteristic OD in all the great late '60s thru early '70s overdrive tones I love most. EL84's sound beautiful at clean to hairy levels with The Beatles, Badfinger, '80s - '90s Manchester bands or what have you. However, when amps are highly overdriven to levels that The Stones, Zeppelin, Free, etc often used, el84s sound like what I would characterize as "modern day boutique tone". That tone that started with the Matchless craze in the '90s - I just don't like it.

[Macaroni]

With all of these comparative considerations, there is also the issue of which brand of 6L6 and EL34 you compare. That can be a significant factor.

My Kingsley Deluxe 32C uses 2xEL84s + 2x... 6V6, 6L6, 5881, EL34, 7581A

I have the classic NOS versions of each of the above, ie: RCA 6V6GTA, RCA 6L6GC, Mullard xf2 EL34 and Amperex xf4 EL34, Tung Sol 5881, Phillips 7581A, and Mullard/Telefunken/Seimens EL84s.

If I just use 2 x EL84s it has a distinct tonal character and feel with each different brand of EL84. If I add each of the above tubes to the mix, they all impart a unique tonal character to the blend that is distinct and clearly audible in both the cleans and OD tones, as well as the feel.

And knowing the classic amps that originally used each of those power tubes, you can hear aspects of those tonal qualities, eg: the Tung Sol 5881s have a chewy, fat Tweed kind of vibe, vs the clear, glassy, up front EL34s, vs the smooth, round, punchy 6L6s, etc.

[baron55]

EL34's are more sensitive to input signal and have a wider dynamic response to playing, they compress at much lower volumes, and I always find they sound fuller than 6L6 type tubes. They add much more low-mids, which gives a thicker tone IMO.

[kmanick]

In my JSX head I heard a substantial difference between EL34's and 6L6's.
the EL34's have a much glassier tone to tnem and more of a "growl'.
with the 6L6's in there it was a much "flatter" sound. Maybe better at high volumes buta at lower volumes it sounded "muddier" to me than the EL34's.
I took the 6L6's out and put the EL34's back in, I think with this particular amp
the EL34's give it more "personality". (at least at "house" volumes)

[FastRedPonyCar]

It may depend on the amp. I noticed a HUGE change when I went from EL34's (KT77's) to 6L6GC's in my V3. The clean channel changed dramatically.

It wasn't a tonal shift though... it was a character and FEEL shift and it wasn't nearly as impactful at low volumes as it was once they started to get saturated.

[bosstone]

It seems to me that that the characteristics of the power tube become more apparent at higher power levels. My main amp, has a built in attenuator and I have really gotten into power tube distortion because I can crank hard on the power tubes without getting hearing damage. Many people have amps that are too powerful for their needs and rely on the preamp for the distortion and sustain, while the power tubes and transformers just kick back and relax. I am glad the trend is for smaller amps and solutions such as "Power Scaling", both of which get more use out of the whole amp. I don't minimize the importance of a good preamp but all amps sound even better once you have gotten the power section to work in its zone, but if you over power the room you are in, you are going to loose some of your audience.

[cochese]

That's me - I don't like el84s for OD tones in general - with or without pedals. EL84s are indeed one of the most colorizing output tube types ever. That's exactly what I don't like about el84s - that excessive chime and fizz/fuzz when driven hard. It's that overly compressed overdrive tone - even evident in the 1974/2061 Marshall circuits, not just Vox and boutique designs.

I personally like a fatter more midrange emphasized overdrive that still retains a lot of bite for leads - like a Plexi. I like brightness, just not chime, if you know what I mean. And about every single commonly used output tube, EXCEPT, el84s can get that tone optimally.

It's a personal preference - but it's also because I don't hear that el84 characteristic OD in all the great late '60s thru early '70s overdrive tones I love most. EL84's sound beautiful at clean to hairy levels with The Beatles, Badfinger, '80s - '90s Manchester bands or what have you. However, when amps are highly overdriven to levels that The Stones, Zeppelin, Free, etc often used, el84s sound like what I would characterize as "modern day boutique tone". That tone that started with the Matchless craze in the '90s - I just don't like it.

There again it still comes down to amp design. These are general observations for EL84's in a typical circuit. In the Guytron GT100FV that I use the "preamp" section uses EL84's slaved to a EL34 output section. You can get all that EL84 complexity and chime but with the FV controls you can get really dark plexi brown sounds to a 6L6 sound to a bright Marshall tone. It has more to do with the design than just the tube.

[LaXu]

I've tried swapping the power tubes in a few amps and they definitely made a noticeable difference. When I had a Stephenson LJ10 head, running a single 6V6 was smoother and bassier than running a single EL84 which was on the other hand chimier but also IMO harsher. Running both a 6V6 and EL84 at the same time sounded best.

On my Diezel Einstein I swapped the EL34s to Svetlana/SED 6L6GCs and felt the amp sounded smoother at lower volume as well as better with clean tones and lower gain sounds. The EL34s sounded a bit better on high gain rhythms and leads.

In both cases the difference wasn't night and day but definitely noticeable.

[kealiikai]

6L6 -
* more low end, but not as tight
* rounder, fatter sound


EL34's -
* Less low end, but tighter on the low end
* more mids
* more pronounced highs and high mids
* still fat, but not as thick as 6L6's


Over-all.... in the same amp, you won't hear much difference until you REALLY crank it up. I liked EL34's in my boogies better, especially my Roadster.

Thanks for posting that. I think I'll try out a quad of EL34's. My LoneStar is big on the low end. I have my bass tone off and the high at 3 o'clock.

[phalanges]

If you get the opportunity to play through a Superbaby, (Emery Sound), and have a selection of octal base output tubes, you can get a pretty good idea of what the different characteristics of these tubes sound and feel like.

[waxnsteel]

Maybe in other circuits there is more of a difference with the amps turned up, but all my tube comparison clips, the Budda, AND the Road King, were full-bore. CH 2/3/4 were "hurt me" loud, and that was as loud as the Budda would go on the 6L6 side, with the EL84s attenuated one click to match volume.

As for all the single-ended tube swappers, all you'll really get out of that comparison is, like in mine, what different tubes sound like in that circuit.

I'm pretty sure Leon's comment is at the heart of the matter. There is a pretty solid tube bias (pun intended) perpetuated particularly by guys who have played a lot of vintage amps. These guys hear EL34 and instantly think "Marshall," 6L6 "Fender," and EL84 "Vox" before they would even listen to the amp. That simply isn't the case.

The Tweed Bassman and Plexi may have been built from the same schematic, but different tubes aren't causing that big change in tone. To an extent it's transformers, maybe a little bit tubes, but to the largest extent, it's the speakers. Try plugging a tweed Bassman into a 4x12 with Greenbacks (assuming it's wired for the right impedance) and tell me that doesn't sound more Marshall than Fender. Likewise plug a 1987 head into a bassman's speakers, and you get the idea...

I can usually hear single coils and which position they're in, or buckers and they're position, but I can't often discern tube type or amp circuit type from a recording. Sometimes speaker type, but rarely will hear a clip and think, oh yeah, that's a pair of EL34s.

[waxnsteel]

With all of these comparative considerations, there is also the issue of which brand of 6L6 and EL34 you compare. That can be a significant factor.


You can often get as much variation between different brands of 6L6s. In some cases, even within the same brand.

[Leonc]

...Try plugging a tweed Bassman into a 4x12 with Greenbacks (assuming it's wired for the right impedance) and tell me that doesn't sound more Marshall than Fender. Likewise plug a 1987 head into a bassman's speakers, and you get the idea...

Boom. Spot on. Having done this before, I know that you are absolutely correct. If circuit design is held constant, speakers and cabs are FAR MORE likely to have a major impact on the sound than power tubes. Night and day differences vs subtle differences.

[Mike9]

I've tried both 6L6's and EL34's in my Frenzel and settled on a pair of NOS Tesla EL34's. They just sound best to my ears - a little thicker in the mids and nice shimmer in the top end. They sound great with single coils, P-90's and humbuckers. Bass is nice and tight, but not overwhelming. I run the power section at full and my preamp gain @ 10 O'clock w/ bass down and presence up - this works for me.

[gtrshow]

Boom. Spot on. Having done this before, I know that you are absolutely correct. If circuit design is held constant, speakers and cabs are FAR MORE likely to have a major impact on the sound than power tubes. Night and day differences vs subtle differences.


Dang, now I just KNOW that I need a 4x10!

[Masa]

It must be your amp circuit as some people suggested. About a month ago, I got my Fargen Mighty Plex back from Ben (he upgraded some parts, and updated the circuit). After I found a good combination of preamp tubes, I started trying power tubes with the amp cranked.

I tried

Mullard EL34 (not reissue)
Winged C EL34
JJ EL34
Genalex KT66
Tung Sol 5881 (reissue)
Philips 6L6GWB
Philips 6L6GC
Philips 7581
Philips 6V6
RCA 6V6

They all sounded different. For this particular amp, I liked the 7581 and 6L6GC the best. Because the 6L6GC belongs to my blonde Bassman, I kept the 7581 with the Fargen amp.

Masa

[Alias Archtop]

It may depend on the amp. I noticed a HUGE change when I went from EL34's (KT77's) to 6L6GC's in my V3. The clean channel changed dramatically.

It wasn't a tonal shift though... it was a character and FEEL shift and it wasn't nearly as impactful at low volumes as it was once they started to get saturated.

Exactly! THe differences between power tubes often has more to do with feel than actual sound.

El 34s crunch...6l6s are meaty and spongy

El34s cut like a knife for fast runs with great speed.....6l6s are beefy and great for gripping onto huge round notes

6l6s are dark and thick....el34s are bright and chimey

I never truly understood the big differences between power tubes until I had 2 of the exact same amp heads, but one was filled with 6l6s and the other with el34s. Both were exactly the same...except for the tubes. But they were VASTLY different from each other.

[scottl]

In my Glaswerks ("D" influenced circuit), there is a very noticeable and not subtle difference between 6L6, EL34, and KT77.

Fwiw, I love the KT77. Kind of mixes the best of 6L6 and EL34.

[dbeeman]

Agree speakers will often make a bigger difference than the output tubes.
Overall amp circuit can have a huge effect.

But .... having played some of the tubes in the same basic circuit and speakers:

6l6 - more glassy high end, part of the classic Fender bite or chime, due to the 'kink' in the response
el34 - more mid/upper mid focus than 6l6, sounds like it has a flatter freq response
6v6 - all about thick midrange
el84 - upper mid focus, I think a crucial part of the classic vox sound


of course circuit changes etc can blur or change these differences