Les Pauls w/P90s...Not happy. [Archive]

pjwill

07-02-2007, 03:13 PM

jetlag

07-02-2007, 03:44 PM

Stock gibson front P90s (of recent manufacture) are muffled, muddy, indistinct sounding to my ears. You usually need to replace it. The back one is okay, but around 8K. If you replace the front with a "stock" type front pup from someone like lollar or fralin, you often have a mismatch in output necessitating the back pup to be replaced as well. I really like a set of Zhang P90s (see manufacturers area) I'm using. The stock lollar front is pretty nice sounding, and very clear sounding with good response to pick attack. I like P90s that are rougher around the edges for my back pup (as opposed to lollars). Another brand I would consider would be wolfetone - RS sells them or you can buy direct from Wolf. Judging from your post, you also might consider Lollar's new 50's wind (underwound) P90s as well. Also judging from your post, you might like LP specials better than P90 LP standards - they are kind of a cross between a tele and a P90 LP standard.

Sometimes you need to replace the volume pots to get a brighter, more defined tone as well. As far as setup - it's pretty common to set your amp for a good front P90 tone, but then needing to roll some treble off the back pup in order for it to sound good. Good thing there are two sets of volume/tone controls on those lesters.

Jim S

07-02-2007, 04:23 PM

I'm quite happy with my Lollars. But the bridge P90 in an LP is a far cry from a Tele bridge. Maybe try a bolt-on alder or ash guitar with P90s for the needs you described above?

jimmyj

07-02-2007, 04:24 PM

I'm another Tele player that has more or less switched to a Historic Single cut LP Special with Lollars. The only electric guitars I own now is a tele and 2 LP Specials. My guess is also that a Special would be more of a Les Paul that a Telefanatic could love.
The Lollars are fairly bright and so is the unplugged tone of my Historic Special so, as someone who has played teles a lot, I'm getting along with the LP just fine.
I mostly use the middle position and use the volume controls to mix for a sound that I like on any given song. When I do play something that really should have a tele bridge pickup sound and switch to the bridge pickup on the LP it gets pretty snappy and I don't miss the tele. However, it is NOT what could be called twang. It's more of a snappy snarl. I will switch to the neck position for a solo on a ballad and it's not too muddy but definitely thicker than a Fender neck pickup sound. Most of the time where I would have used the neck pickup in a Fender I will use the middle position on the LP and mix the volumes rather than use the neck pickup alone. That way I don't have to have the amp set so bright that the bridge pickup sounds bad.
This is playing the LP through a Top Hat Club Royale which has plenty of highs available if needed so that may be a factor. Since this is a small tube amp that is working pretty hard the potential harsh highs in the bridge position tend to get clipped off, plus the CR has a Cut control that can be used to trim off any brittleness.

John Phillips

07-02-2007, 05:20 PM

I am a confirmed Telefanatic, but there are times when I want the feel and the thicker, rocking tone of a Les Paul. Humbuckers have never been my thing, so I have been through a half dozen Les Pauls with P90s:

90s Gem Series
R4
BB4
R6
Cloud 9 R6
LE Goldtop Standard w/P90s and ebony board

Ultimalely, they all sound "muddy/muffled" to me unless I radically adjust the tone settings of my amps (see signature). Which is fine, BUT about the time that I am fairly happy with my neck pup tone, I switch to the brdge pup and I get a very harsh/brittle tone. I want to love a
P90 equippped LP, but am having no luck.

The one thing that Ihave not done, and probably should do, is swap out the stock pups for Lollars or some other aftermarket pups. Will this help? Are the stock Gibsons just too hot or inarticulate for some one wanting a more articulate ans "open" P90 tone. Right now, I have the Limited Edition Standard with p90s and ebony board. What would a set of vintage spec Lollars (or other boutique) pups do for me?
Get a Les Paul Deluxe, or just a set of mini-humbuckers - these will fit in the same routs, although you need to make sure you get the mounting plates for them too (and you'll need to drill a couple of holes in the cavity floor most likely).

The mini-hums are actually quite similar to Tele pickups tonally, but you get the power and thickness of the Les Paul body underneath. They're cleaner and more cutting than P90s - not really 'brighter', but more defined.

AaeCee

07-02-2007, 05:25 PM

The only iteration you haven't tried is my favorite, the '54 Custom (R4 Custom) that comes with the alnico 5 'staple' pickup in the neck. An amazing, versatile pickup, and it blends really well with the bridge. IMO another factor that makes every one I've heard sound so sweet, is the solid mahogany body with no maple cap. Seems to contribute just the right amount of softness which cuts away any harsh edge. They do tend to run a little heavier though, with the average at around 9 1/2 - 10 lbs.

straightblues

07-02-2007, 05:44 PM

I think you should give up. You have tried 6 great guitars and none of them have worked. Stop trying and just stick with the tele.

I play teles and an R6. My R6 can sound very tele like so I am surprised that you weren't able to find that in the 6 guitars you have owned.

tybone

07-02-2007, 05:47 PM

Filtertron?

Pedro58

07-02-2007, 05:47 PM

You work the tone knob on your tele, dontcha? Set the amp to sound good with the neck pup and expect to pull some volume or tone off with the bridge.

CitizenCain

07-02-2007, 06:06 PM

I've got a '78 LP Pro Deluxe that has just the conditions you describe. I've been eyeing up some new pickups from Tonerider. They're a hybrid setup with one A2 magnet and one A5 magnet. I wonder what that would sound like?

soldano16

07-02-2007, 06:32 PM

The new Gibson P-90's really are awful. Definitely put good PU's in there.

pjwill

07-02-2007, 06:49 PM

I gotta say...This is why I love this place so much...Great stuff.

Aaecee...I have had the 54 Custom (I called it a BB4 in my post) and it was my favorite of all. You are right on all points about that guitaer...The staple Alinco neck pup was killer (mah=ogany top was nice, heavy as hell, too)...disliked the sound of the bridge pup though...should have just swapped it out.

The Deluxe idea is a good one, too. Had a 73 for awhile, and it was good, but not quite what I was after..although it was somewhat better for me than the P90s.

I will look into an Historic Special ('60 is singlr cut version, right)...never tried one...Like the idea of the flat slab of mahogany. Before I do that, I will try some underwound Fralins, sounds intriguing.

The advice to roll the vol. and tone off on the bridge position does help...good suggestions.

Straightblues...I know what your saying about just sticking with the Tele. Mine get 90% of the playing time, but as you can tell, I am on a mission!

Thanks again...TGP is an awesome place. Real players with real knowledged and great ears for tone.

ricoh

07-02-2007, 06:51 PM

I'm a Tele guy through and through. However I did have a period where I used a double cut LP Special. It worked out fine at the time. It was one with a tune-o-matic that they offered in the mid 90's. Really nice guitar. I wish I still had it. On the other hand you can never go wrong with a Tele or replace that great Tele sound.

mattattack

07-02-2007, 07:03 PM

Hmmm, I think a Reverend Charger 290 is the answer ;). I think a 25.5" scale might help that problem as well. I prefer buckers on a long scale precisely because I think it helps eliminate some of the mud.

nitehawk55

07-02-2007, 07:10 PM

Try a set of Wolfetone P90s. Meaner and Mean, or if you want them hotter. Meanest and Meaner. Just tell Wolfe to wind for you what he did for me. You will NOT be dissapointed.

How are they for noise ? Hey! I'm a caretaker at student res at a University :AOK

mad dog

07-02-2007, 07:41 PM

If you ever get a chance, try to hear something with 2K single coil dearmond p/us. (Such as many dearmonds, also the fender telesonic). It has a certain P90 vibe , can be cleaner, definitely twangier. Has big punch and drive if you want it. Just got my second Dearmond (a starfire special), and cannot get over how good these pickups sound. I keep meaning to get a P90 guitar, but am getting sidetracked by these cool dearmonds.

walterw

07-02-2007, 07:49 PM

Try a set of Wolfetone P90s. Meaner and Mean, or if you want them hotter. Meanest and Meaner. Just tell Wolfe to wind for you what he did for me. You will NOT be dissapointed.

that's the key. gibson makes one p-90, and they throw it in everything. you need a calibrated set, with the bridge wound to be fatter while the neck is wound clearer.

i haven't heard the wolftones, but i know the fralins and the lollars are both excellent, and are also wound to tonally balance with each other.

go7

07-02-2007, 07:57 PM

:AOKTry a set of Wolfetone P90s. Meaner and Mean, or if you want them hotter. Meanest and Meaner. Just tell Wolfe to wind for you what he did for me. You will NOT be dissapointed. I put a set of Wolfetone Vintage P90`s in my Goldtop and have :) a big smile. Enjoy!

TattooedCarrot

07-02-2007, 08:03 PM

I find that consistantly Gibson stock P90's, while possessing an aggressive voicing I like, tend to be on the thicker, muddier side. A switch to Wolfs, Lollars, Fralins, or some other style P90 makes a huge difference (as does a pot change).

karmadave

07-02-2007, 08:04 PM

I have a Lollar 5% underwound in the neck and Lollar standard wind in the bridge. My guitar is a Tokai LS-80S which is a Japanese copy of the R6 (only with a medium neck profile). The RS Historic Kit w/treble tamer seemed to balance out the pups a bit too. The neck is very sweet and articulate. Not muddy at all. The bridge is just killer!

-KD

jamhandy

07-02-2007, 08:18 PM

What you have described is the very typical muddy tone of mahogany... which Gibson seems to think belongs on every guitar they make (almost)

I have a Musicman Axis SuperSport with P-90s and it is bad to the bone... I highly recommned this blues screamer...

The body wood of my guitar is ash, which is going to sound much nicer with P-90s than the Les Paul's mahogany... then, it has a maple top, which makes it snappy and tight...

They make this model with or without a vibrato, and it has just a volume, tone and three-way toggle... but the tone controls and volume really work together to give you a wide range of tones out of this one guitar...

I had one of the Gibson Flying V's ("Voodoo V's") that came out a few years back with an ash body... holy crap... a real screaming tone machine... and oh so refreshing from the ho-hum, all-we-ever-do-is-mahogany Gibson line... plus it was light... quality control sucked, I bought it at Valley Arts Guitar in nashville (two floors up from the main Gibson final set-up shop...) and the neck had sharp edges on the frets, the intonation wasn't set... and get this... the bridge pickup was TOUCHING the strings when the salesman handed it to me off the wall... I buy very few Gibsons anymore... too many other brands who take so much more care in their quality control... but once the Voodoo V was dialed in, it was badass... and the ash wood really worked with that model's humbuckers...

The Les Pauls are pretty with the P-90s, but to my ears they all sound dull... I don't think there is any "fix-it" to it, until Gibson puts something else in them besides mahogany, mahogany, mahogany...

I wonder how the world's mahogany forests are holding up?

Give me an ash-bodied baby any day...

Here's a pic of the Musicman with the P-90s... (they call it the "MusicMan Axis SuperSport MM90") -- if you ever pick one up, you aren't going to want to put it down...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b209/asat4life/Music%20Man%20SuperSport/MusicMan-Axis-SuperSport-in-Case-1.jpg

Jam

the_Chris

07-02-2007, 10:19 PM

I have a set of Lollar P90s and have a Wolfetone Mean/Meaner set. Both are fantastic pickups in their own right. Wolfetones have a bit more output and more aggressive personality (which makes them my #1 pick for the rock band I'm playing in). Lollars are a bit more refined, I think of them as a ballsier set of Tele pickups (they're brighter and clearer than most P90s I've tried). Both sound great and have earned a place in my rig.

jda

07-02-2007, 10:29 PM

Face it - you don't like Gibsons or P90s. They just don't sound the way you want a guitar to sound. Stick with the tele.

localmotion411

07-02-2007, 10:39 PM

I was in your shoes when I bought a Thorn Junior Ninety. Incredible guitar with the most fantastic staple P-90s I've ever heard. The guitar is a great transition between tele twang tones and fat juicy Les Paul P-90 thickness. I absolutely could not be happier with the guitar. The craftsmanship, attention to detail, and service to the customer is second to none. Ron Thorn is a gem.

As a tele player, you should get along with the style of the guitar very well. I won't go back to teles now and am having a hard time putting it down long enough to play anything with humbuckers or single coils. Also, from the looks of what you've bought in the past, the Thorn pricetag shouldn't be a problem.

PlexiBreath

07-02-2007, 11:24 PM

Your idea of going with a set of Lollars is a good one, try that before you give up. If that's not what you want, Lollar makes a set of P90s with Fender style magnet poles, that just may be the ticket.

Flyin' Brian

07-03-2007, 01:41 AM

I think a 25.5" scale might help that problem as well. I prefer buckers on a long scale precisely because I think it helps
eliminate some of the mud.

I totally agree. I have an old beater Strat Plus that I converted to a Big Apple Strat with a Duncan 59 in the neck and a Pearly Gates in the bridge. The 5 way switching is really versatile and the best thing is that humbucker-on-a-25 1/2" scale thing that happens. I wish I had ordered my Heritage Prospect with a 25 1/2" scale.

teddy boy

07-03-2007, 03:27 AM

Where can I buy a st of Lollars?

Clam

07-03-2007, 06:07 AM

http://www.lollarguitars.com/

mainsale

07-03-2007, 07:23 AM

I agree that a set of Lollar's will take you a big step in the direction you want to go. They are certainly more articulate and clearer than standard Gibson P-90s. Hoveland tone caps will further enhance the clarity. A pot change to 500k pots will take you another step in that direction.

Fralin P-92's are another possibility. They are described as a noiseless P-90 and are articulate and clear. I absolutely love them and have them in a LP Florentine and several Tele's.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/Mainsale/da0273cb.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/Mainsale/P-92Tele001.jpg

WordMan

07-03-2007, 07:33 AM

You work the tone knob on your tele, dontcha? Set the amp to sound good with the neck pup and expect to pull some volume or tone off with the bridge.

Lord I couldn't agree with this more - P-90's rarely sound good for anything but screaming leads if you have the guitar's volume and tone set at 10 for the bridge p-up. I roll the volume off to 8.5 or so take the edge off and reveal the thicker tone underneath, and roll the tone off anywhere from down to 3-4 (for a damn-near humbucker beefy PAF tone) to 8 or so for more true P-90 thick-but-articulate tone.

Judging by your reply where you indicate that you might consider swapping pickups and playign with the on-board controls, it sounds like you have a ton of room for experimentation before you give up on P-90's. I grew up in the 70's, when EVH dimed everything and took the Tone control out of his guitar's circuit, so I just assumed that was the way to go. Learning to work with P-90's is the exact opposite of that mindset and took me a while to be open-minded about it - but the payoff is huge.

As for neck scale - first you have to decide if you genuinely like playing various scales or if one is your true preference. I like the snap of a Fender 25.5 scale, but really prefer playing a shorter-scaled guitar, so I tend to try to find wood type and pickup designs that sound good that way...

My $.02

Birdseye

07-03-2007, 08:00 AM

I went through a similar thing...switched from tele to a Gibson R4. I was looking for a tone like my buddy's original '53 LP. Changed out the stock pups for standard Lollars...better...still not quite always there. Just recently, I dropped in the Lollar 50s winds and there it is...much more of the Fender flavor in there. Bright enough to cut through without being too loud, no mud, a lovely set of 90s, best yet. I recommend you try these. They are underwound and demagnetized, specs to match an old P90 that Jason had from my friend's guitar for repair. Nice highs. You can always dial out some highs using the tone control, but you can't put them in if they are not there, and it's hard to get rid of muddy tone. The stock 90s and standard Lollars are nice for a thick rock tone, but if you want more versatility, the 50s are a better bet, IMO.

Good luck!

davess23

07-03-2007, 08:01 AM

From what you say in the original post, you just may not be looking for a P-90 sound. However, the range of aftermarket versions of this pickup is huge. If you sample enough of them, you're likely to find one that works for you.

I haven't tried newer Gibson P-90's, but the ones in my 10 year old R6 kick ass. I for one wasn't overly impressed with the Lollars I've compared with them.

shadco

07-03-2007, 08:18 AM

Methinks someone made these with you in mind.

http://www.thornguitars.com/jr90htm/jr90group001.htm

fast ricky love

07-03-2007, 08:18 AM

YOU MUST REPLACE THE STOCK POTS AND CAPS.

That is Gibson ownership 101. They are the major issue, trust me. Not to say the pickup swap wouldn't be a big improvement as well, because it would, but you won't be getting the right results with the crap electronics these Gibson's come with. Get a RS kit or the equivolent...

localmotion411

07-03-2007, 08:48 AM

Methinks someone made these with you in mind.

http://www.thornguitars.com/jr90htm/jr90group001.htm

Word! I have #70304, brazilian burst with tremolo, and it is just sick. Thick, rich, greasy, fat, articulate, all the keywords that everyone looks for. I was a newbie to P-90s and was really looking for a guitar that would give me tones in between a fat tele and Les Paul, and this guitar has it in spades. I am really into the tones Keith Urban is getting with his setup, and I am right there with him in that department.

pjwill

07-03-2007, 08:58 AM

OK...again, lots of great stuff. The Thorn's look very nice, but I am going to start with a set of Jason Lollar's 50s winds and an RS kit and go from there....may check into Thorns next...

Also very interested in a Lentz DL-90...anyone have experience with one of these?

plagtr2

07-03-2007, 08:59 AM

1+ On finding good pups! I have 2 Dillion LP copies with Stephens Design pups & they made a HUGE improvement. See link: http://www.sdpickups.com/
Dave makes some fine pups & would be worth a look. Good luck!

Milkman

07-03-2007, 09:06 AM

localmotion411

07-03-2007, 09:06 AM

pjwill

07-03-2007, 09:09 AM

Be careful with Thorns and Lentzs; they are so exceptional that you may become addicted.

Oh Great! That's just what I need...I am alreadyTele-addicted!:D

localmotion411

07-03-2007, 09:16 AM

P90s are not for everybody.

I know they're not for me.

Just my opinion, but I think they don't do cleans as well as a conventional single coil and don't do raunch as well as most humbuckers.

Good for blues I guess.

Personally I'll take a humbucker with coil tapping.

Do me a favor and listen to Keith Urban's "Stupid Boy" from his latest album Love, Pain, & the Whole Crazy Thing; make sure you pay attention to the clean tones during the whole thing, as well as the long killer solo at the very end. The cleans and lead parts were recorded with (I'm pretty certain) an 60's SG Junior with P-90s. The tones are some of the best I've heard, IMO. Fatter cleans than single coils and lead tones as raunchy as I'd ever need.

CitizenCain

07-03-2007, 09:18 AM

Never had a problem getting the raunch I need out of my P90 guits! I'm not a metal player, but most anything short of that is no problem.

Milkman

07-03-2007, 11:04 AM

Do me a favor and listen to Keith Urban's "Stupid Boy" from his latest album Love, Pain, & the Whole Crazy Thing; make sure you pay attention to the clean tones during the whole thing, as well as the long killer solo at the very end. The cleans and lead parts were recorded with (I'm pretty certain) an 60's SG Junior with P-90s. The tones are some of the best I've heard, IMO. Fatter cleans than single coils and lead tones as raunchy as I'd ever need.

Well that depends on how you like your cleans. I've heard Keith Urban's stuff and while he's a good player, I really don't care for the tones. The cleans are not really clean in my opinion.

The raunch I hear from P-90s or similar are sort of ratty and the cleans are mildly overdriven. That's great if you like those sounds, but like I said, they just aren't for me.

localmotion411

07-03-2007, 11:13 AM

Word.

I agree. The cleans are thick and hairy and the leads are not quite as crisp as with a humbucker. If I want perfectly clean tone, it doesn't get any better than a strat with single coils through the right amp, IMO.

P-90s are great for blues, but they are not by any means one-trick ponies. I use them for cleans, blues, rock, heavy rock, and I really like the sensitivity they have -- I can do a lot with them just by varying pick attack and volume and tone knob settings. But I don't like them through a pristine clean amp. They are hot and need a hot amp.

Tripower455

07-03-2007, 11:56 AM

+1 on the Lollars. I love them in my SG........

socalscott

09-02-2007, 05:29 PM

Send them off for a re-wind. Prolly like $40 a coil. Some AlNiCo II mags would be wise as well. I have the A2/A5 bar mix on each pup.
I actually got some re-wound with coil taps! Sweet, cuz you can have underwound and overwound. Great for variety in combo position too. Monster Tele-ish when underwound.

I know, check out Sean Castello on YouTube. In his LP, he uses underwound, by a bit. Weakened mags also.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sean+costello&search=Search

57special

09-02-2007, 06:41 PM

Pete,
I think you just need to try a good LP with p-90's. I like Specials a bit more than Goldtops, myself.... you know, a really good HB equipped LP sounds great , too.

I love teles, but not JUST teles!

localmotion411

09-02-2007, 07:48 PM

Lollars will probably be cleaner, as would Harmonic Designs. But, it may also be worthwhile to consider another make of guitar, such as a PRS with a slightly longer scale length. That would move it slightly in the Fender direction.

Thorn Junior Nineties have 25" scale (same as PRS), which sits in between Gibson and Fender. Do it. Thorn. C'mon. You know you want to. Do it. Do it.

Antero

09-02-2007, 08:59 PM

If you're a tele guy and haven't been happy with any of the LP/P90 styles you've tried, maybe that's just not the guitar for you. I mean, you say you want "the feel and the thicker, rocking tone of a Les Paul" but you clearly don't actually want the sounds that are coming out of it, so it would be much more effective to search around for other guitars that offer you thick tone and a certain feel that aren't LPs.

enharmonic

09-03-2007, 08:05 AM

Dude...Tele Jr.

Find one. Thank me later :D

fast ricky love

09-03-2007, 08:48 AM

If you like the sound of the guitar acoustically, then it'll be great once you replace the pots, caps and pickups. All 3 of those stock items suck on Gibsons...

jamhandy

02-09-2008, 09:26 PM

Just go spend $500 on one of these Warhawk 390's and you'll be satisfied... three P-90s, solid Korina set-neck construction, and all the tone you'll need...

http://www.reverendguitars.com/reverend/images/guitars/set_neck_series/hi-res/a_view/warhawk_2_390_mred_a.jpg

http://www.reverendguitars.com/reverend/guitars/set_neck_series/warhawk_2_390.html

Its always been my opinion to take that $5,000 you want to spend on "tone" you elusively never find in any guitar... and invest it in a good guitar instructor, a significant amount of time off work, and lot's of wood-shedding... you will find a LOT more tone this way, then piddling around with capacitor changes, soldering irons and potentiometers...

Jam

KRosser

02-09-2008, 10:56 PM

I have the '56 Goldtop Re-ish - I believe it's referred to as an "R6" though I don't know why?

I didn't like the stock Gibson pickups, so I put in a set of Lollars, which I love - they completely 'opened up' the guitar and are much less noisy also.

I'd give a +1 to checking out one of the Les Paul Deluxes with Mini-humuckers - those are killing guitars, and many tracks that I originally thought were Teles were done on an LP Deluxe (such as Reggie Young on Dobie Gray's "Drift Away")

tubetone74

02-10-2008, 06:50 AM

Zhang P-90's transformed my LP Special Historic.David Plummer is Mr. Zhang. zhangbucker@yahoo.com or 818-762-2623.

WordMan

02-10-2008, 07:43 AM

I have the '56 Goldtop Re-ish - I believe it's referred to as an "R6" though I don't know why?

Just a nickname for a Reissue of the 1956-style Les Paul

Tripower455

02-10-2008, 07:43 AM

Try a set of the Zhang P-90s...... Not to expensive, custom made and sound great. A HUGE improvement over the stockers and I like them better than the Lollars, which is something I never thought I'd say.

I have the Zhangs in my R4, and a set of Lollars in my PTSG......

OldSchool

02-10-2008, 08:53 AM

You need to get a Tele inspired guitar with P90's. Start with and Anderson Cobra if you have the budget. If Not get a Wormoth Tele body and go to town with P90's and your favorite neck shape. :BEER

supar6

02-10-2008, 09:44 AM

If you haven't tried one - check out a Hamer Studio with SD P-90's. They are VERY reasonable in price and in my opinion sound beautiful. Very bluesey in the neck position and total rock in the bridge. Nice guitars for about 5-700 used.

pedalcr8z

02-10-2008, 12:28 PM

I just bought a new R-4 and it smokes my 2 previous McCarty's. It gets 10's on Harmony Central but here...........the pick-ups are "just horrible". Last week I read a thread about somebody here ready to rip out the OT's from a '57 Tweed Twin and replace with Mercury's not realizing that they were standard anyway. Then he ripped out the Weber Blues and replaced them with Celestions and "now it sounds like an AC-30". What I am waxing on about here is how many self proclaimed experts there seems to be that will say, buy a LP and change it into the sound of a Strat or Tele.........WHY NOT JUST BUY THE STRAT OR TELE to begin with..........why buy a Tweed and change it into an AC-30. I'm all for improvements in tone but when one totally changes the character of something they bought into something else all together I question how wise it was from a dollar standpoint to not just buy what you want to begin with.:crazyguy

Dave Orban

02-10-2008, 12:57 PM

The new Gibson P-90's really are awful. Definitely put good PU's in there.I disagree. The new Gibson P90s in the 06 VOS Special I owned were significantly closer to the vintage P90s in my '53 175 than ANY of the contemporary boutique winds... and I've tried a bunch of 'em, including Fralins, Lollars, Harmonic Design, Vintage Vibe. The stock Lollars are brighter than most, and will get you closer to a Tele sound, IMO... But it'll NEVER be a Tele, especially if you're used to playing a Tele wide open.

If that's the sound you're going for, I don't think you'll find it in ANY P90 guitar.

pedalcr8z

02-10-2008, 01:14 PM

I disagree. The new Gibson P90s in the 06 VOS Special I owned were significantly closer to the vintage P90s in my '53 175 than ANY of the contemporary boutique winds... and I've tried a bunch of 'em, including Fralins, Lollars, Harmonic Design, Vintage Vibe. The stock Lollars are brighter than most, and will get you closer to a Tele sound, IMO... But it'll NEVER be a Tele, especially if you're used to playing a Tele wide open.

If that's the sound you're going for, I don't think you'll find it in ANY P90 guitar.

+100.............totally agree as I've compared also but obviously around here the experts label tham as "horrible"..........at least they are keeping the boutique p/u winders wallets padded!:roll:roll

brentrocks

02-10-2008, 02:40 PM

I have been through a half dozen Les Pauls with P90s:

90s Gem Series
R4
BB4
R6
Cloud 9 R6
LE Goldtop Standard w/P90s and ebony board

i had a R4 goldtop w/ p 90s also and was not happy with the sound....but gibsons inconsistant quality control may have had a lot to do with it???

WahmBoomAh

02-10-2008, 04:35 PM

I assume the goal is not to sound like a tele ... since you have that already ...hmmm , the gibson flavor you`re chasing ain`t happening with your past trails .. hmmm .I`m gonna have to say the my Koll Duo Glide (TV filtertron classic plus inn bridge and 25.5 scale ) gets me plenty of healthy twang without trying to clone a tele...and throws down gloriously with a KOT stacked into a Small Fry ....thanks Saul !!!!

Koll`s are now big bucks and a long wait .. so I`d think about a full scale with filtertrons in a mahogany or alder (????) bolt on ...good luck !
what the heck ,,,,,, throw a tele neck on there too just to fool yourself

Dale

02-10-2008, 04:37 PM

Try a PRS Soapbar II

:)

pjwill

02-10-2008, 05:40 PM

Strat-O

02-10-2008, 07:12 PM

An R4 didn't do it huh? My R4 reminds me so much of my Broadcaster styled Tele! The stock Gibson P90's sounded good, but not the kind of P90 sound I like. I had them rewound by Don Mare and they sound killer. Classic 50's P90 tone. Heck they just sound like great pickups from the 50's. Gets all the classic 50's tones.

Maybe give Don a shot at rewinding your R4 P90's. He's a master at Telecaster pickups. Cool guy too.

pjwill

02-10-2008, 08:16 PM

The R4 got me the closest to what I was looking for....Better snap and sustain from the wrap tailpiece/bridge. I may look into another and get some underwound pups for it. Thanks for the lead on Don Mare...his Tele pups are some of the best.

Tripower455

02-13-2008, 07:46 PM

+100.............totally agree as I've compared also but obviously around here the experts label tham as "horrible"..........at least they are keeping the boutique p/u winders wallets padded!:roll:roll

I wouldn't say that I am an expert OR that they were horrible. Heck, I kept the stockers in my R4 for 3 years before changing them. They sounded pretty good, but a few things bugged me from day one.

The neck was too hot and both were muddy and just lacked definition.

I put a set of Zhangligun's (Dave Plummer) P-90s and I've been happy ever since.

FWIW, I didn't like the stock P-90s in my PTSG either, for the same reasons and that one got Lollars.

I am not one to change things for the sake of change. I love the '57 Classics in my R9......

rastus

02-13-2008, 11:22 PM

I have several p90 guitars, and the only one that gets into Tele territory are my 72 goldtop with early 60's p90s, tunomatic and Bigsby-it weighs about 11 pounds. I use the lead pickup with the tone wide open, the volume on about 7 and a half (any louder and it gets thick and middy-like a Lester should) and I tend to rotate my picking back towards the bridge when copping Tele tones. I have an r4 and it's awesome, but way too fat at all settings to get any Tele type attack. My dad has a 53 Goldtop with flatwounds and he gets a pretty good Tele type sound with it. But it's more a late 50's rockabilly sound, for sure.

Diezelman

03-03-2008, 11:27 PM

You might try a Paul Reed Smith Singlecut. (NOT the SE!). Its push/pull coil tap, and design in general tend to be a nice blend say 70% Les Paul/ 30% Tele with about 20% less weight on your back than a LP Custom. Diezelman

Guitars: Tak Matsumoto LP, Neal Schon LP, Silverburst SG, Jackson PC 1, PRS Singlecut, PRS Custom 24 Artist, Carvin Koa DC 400, 1979 BC Rich Koa Mockingbird Supreme, Taylor T5C, Melancon Custom Artist T, Hamer Birdseye Newport, Hamer Rick Nielsen Ventura Explorer

playon

03-03-2008, 11:44 PM

I have tried to love P-90s many many times, just never could bond with the sound. I've owned 50s Goldtops, ES-330s, etc. The best one I ever had was a refinned LP Special from the late 50s... with P-90s I think you have to find the magic guitar, but those are few and far between. They are almost never crisp sounding that's for sure.

gkoelling

03-04-2008, 07:04 AM

Thanks, guys...I am glad that this thread has been revived. If you check my signature you can see that I have given up on P90 guitars and have gone a little overboard with Teles. I love the CS stuff of late. That being said, I am thinking about taking the jump back into something with either P90s or mini-humbuckers. Dave O. you are probably right in that I will never get a P90 equiped guitar to sound like a Tele, but I keep thinking that I want the P90 tone. I think that I will look into something with a 25 or 25.5" scale so that I still get that Fender snap.

:nono There's no such thing as going overboard with Tele's.

I can't offer any suggestions on the P90's. I have one P90 guitar and it's the only one I've ever owned. I love the way it sounds, though. The pups are SK Design.

Good luck in your search.

echale3

03-04-2008, 08:15 AM

I'm cool with stock gibson P-90s, and I love the tones I get from my lowly little Gibson Faded DC LP Special. Good articulation, plenty of raunch and grit when the amp is pushed, rich neck tones/bright bridge tones when played clean. It responds very well to pick dynamics and technique, and the tone changes radically depending on how close/far from the bridge you pick. Start playing with the volume/tone pots, and you get even more tones to play with. It's one of my favorite guitars to play--ridiculously light, plays easily, holds tuning, and the variations in tone you can get out of it when you play it right are second to none, IMO. Another great thing about it--I snagged it for $332 out the door, brand spankin' new in the box...

pjwill

03-04-2008, 08:28 AM

:nono There's no such thing as going overboard with Tele's.

Good luck in your search.

Well, I went ahead and traded off my Esquire to scuba200ft (great guy to deal with, Thanks Jeff!) for a great VOS R6 with an RS kit. The tones are almost where I want them to be, but I think that I am going to get a pair of Fralin -15/0 P90s. The bridge pup is fine, but the neck is just too hot/muddy no matter where I set the hieght or adjust the pole pieces.

57special

03-04-2008, 09:26 AM

:nono There's no such thing as going overboard with Tele's.

I can't offer any suggestions on the P90's. I have one P90 guitar and it's the only one I've ever owned. I love the way it sounds, though. The pups are SK Design.

Good luck in your search.

The neck pup on Greg's "Special" type guitar looks like a p-90, but is really more like an old Staple pup that Gibson used in the 50's. Very sweet, with less bottom than a p-90, so therefore less mud. His is also made out of Primavera, which to my ears is somewhere in between Mahogany and Swamp ash in tone.... again less mud.
Having said that, I've built a few Specials, and have got a couple in the works right now. I've yet to find one that is muddy in the neck, though i do know what you mean. I think pups are part of it, but the build process, finish and wood selection also affect tone.

rastus

03-04-2008, 12:32 PM

Hey PJ

I wanted to interject something here-p90's (as well as most single coil p/u's, in my experience) are VERY sensitive to string guages and materials. I have noticed that I prefer pure nickel strings for rounder, raunchier tones on both my p90 gibsons as well as my vintage fenders. I have been running stainless core/nickel wrapped strings on my 72 Goldtop w/ p90s and a Bigsby. The stainless really contributes to the attack, but lessens sustain a bit, speeding up the decay a bit. The transients are much faster than the pure nickel. Also I use the skinny top/heavy bottom guages on the 72, seems the bigsby works better, but it also semms to drive the pickups differently, the balance string to string seems more like the Teles I have.

Then again, maybe I just need to take up golf, and quit obsessing over guitars.....

57special

03-04-2008, 01:39 PM

Hey PJ
Then again, maybe I just need to take up golf, and quit obsessing over guitars.....

tried that approach. Now , I obsess about guitars AND golf.:dude

fuzz_factor

03-04-2008, 05:48 PM

fuzz_factor

03-04-2008, 05:55 PM

echale3

03-05-2008, 07:56 AM

Nice! Is it TV yellow? For some reason, that color has always looked attractive to me.

And I agree with what you say about the p90s; same goes for my SG Classic.

- jeff -

Mine is the faded red, but rather than being the usual dull, weak red color like most fadeds, it looks like they used the Heritage Cherry stain like is on the SG Classic. I put three thin coats of Tru Oil on, and when it was cured out, I very lightly buffed it with 0000 steel wool to soften the sheen a little. It looks killer now....

I wanted one of the SG Classics, but I didn't have the scratch for it, so I traded into a Faded Brown SG (another fresh-out-of-the-box purchase) with a 1-piece body and replaced the stock 490s with GFS Mean 90s because I love that P-90 tone. It's just a little darker sounding than my LP DC Special, but not by much. When I tweak the amp settings, I can hit that "Live at Leeds" tone, no problem. I'm also considering purchasing a RS Guitarworks kit for it to open it up some over the stock harness, so I'm interested in seeing what reply you get on that matter. I'm probably going to reuse my stock jack and switch, so I'll just go for the pot/cap/ground wire kit...

fuzz_factor

03-05-2008, 11:17 AM

Mine is the faded red, but rather than being the usual dull, weak red color like most fadeds, it looks like they used the Heritage Cherry stain like is on the SG Classic. I put three thin coats of Tru Oil on, and when it was cured out, I very lightly buffed it with 0000 steel wool to soften the sheen a little. It looks killer now....

I wanted one of the SG Classics, but I didn't have the scratch for it, so I traded into a Faded Brown SG (another fresh-out-of-the-box purchase) with a 1-piece body and replaced the stock 490s with GFS Mean 90s because I love that P-90 tone. It's just a little darker sounding than my LP DC Special, but not by much. When I tweak the amp settings, I can hit that "Live at Leeds" tone, no problem. I'm also considering purchasing a RS Guitarworks kit for it to open it up some over the stock harness, so I'm interested in seeing what reply you get on that matter. I'm probably going to reuse my stock jack and switch, so I'll just go for the pot/cap/ground wire kit...

Cool. After reading your post yesterday I went looking at the DC Specials thinking, "Maybe I should have got one of those instead of the SG..." Oh well, the grass is always greener right? I got mine brand new, but on sale through MF.

Either way, I think we both got lucky scoring quality, US made guitars for a good price, although you paid substantially less than me. :)

Have fun,

- jeff -

mainsale

03-05-2008, 11:25 AM

I went with Fralin P-92's and I'm delighted. The neck is articulate and rich with zero mud and the bridge has no thinness to it either. Lindy Fralin describes tham as a "noiseless P-90" and I agree. they just might be what the doctor ordered.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/Mainsale/da0273cb.jpg

pjwill

03-05-2008, 11:45 AM

This RS kit of which you all speak, for an SG Classic equipped with stock Gibson p90s, should I be looking at:

The Premium Vintage SG kit:

http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/product_info.php?cPath=31_60&products_id=415

or the Premium Modern SG kit:

http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/product_info.php?cPath=31_59&products_id=419

or something else?

Thanks,

- jeff -

Good question...because these are probably desinged for humbucker equipped SGs. I don't no enough about Gibson's, let alone HB equipped guitars, to know if the pot/cap values are the same for P90 equiped Gibbys. Anyone else?

saucyjack

03-05-2008, 12:32 PM

Good question...because these are probably desinged for humbucker equipped SGs. I don't no enough about Gibson's, let alone HB equipped guitars, to know if the pot/cap values are the same for P90 equiped Gibbys. Anyone else?

I put the RS Vintage kit in my Sg Classic and happy with the upgrade.

fuzz_factor

03-05-2008, 12:49 PM

I put the RS Vintage kit in my Sg Classic and happy with the upgrade.

Can you describe the differences? "Better" tone, more control, better tone w/volume rolled off, less highs, more highs, more mids, etc.?????

Thanks!

- jeff -

saucyjack

03-05-2008, 01:11 PM

Can you describe the differences? "Better" tone, more control, better tone w/volume rolled off, less highs, more highs, more mids, etc.?????

Thanks!

- jeff -

More highs/sparkle.
Better taper and "feel" for the Volume pots.Maybe a little smoother tone roll off.
I would try the RS Kit before replacing pickups.

jgyn

03-05-2008, 02:17 PM

More highs/sparkle.
Better taper and "feel" for the Volume pots.Maybe a little smoother tone roll off.
I would try the RS Kit before replacing pickups.

Are these differences apparent when the guitar volume's at 10?

itgoesto11uc

03-05-2008, 03:25 PM

+1 on the lowly LP Faded Special and also the lowly Musician's Friend $750 LP Jr. They play and sound great! I have custom shop Gibson and Fenders that I love too but I often choose the former when I head out the door to play.

pjwill

03-05-2008, 05:44 PM

Are these differences apparent when the guitar volume's at 10?

I would say yes. More open sounding.

saucyjack

03-05-2008, 06:11 PM

Are these differences apparent when the guitar volume's at 10?

Yes.
I'm sure most of it is due to the Pots being 500k.I measured the stock Gibsons and they were around 300k.

Strat-O

03-17-2008, 09:05 AM

There could be any number of things causing your pickups to sound muddy. I've had stock Gibson P90's in two guitars, and muddy isn't what I would have described them as. Lollars sound great though. Much different than Gibsons.

Shamus

03-17-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by localmotion411 http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=2666905#post2666905)
Do me a favor and listen to Keith Urban's "Stupid Boy" from his latest album Love, Pain, & the Whole Crazy Thing; make sure you pay attention to the clean tones during the whole thing, as well as the long killer solo at the very end. The cleans and lead parts were recorded with (I'm pretty certain) an 60's SG Junior with P-90s. The tones are some of the best I've heard, IMO. Fatter cleans than single coils and lead tones as raunchy as I'd ever need.

That's a Melody Maker not a Jr.

Hmmmm. In the video he's playing a vintage 50's sunburst Les Paul Jr. - note the larger les paul headstock (not the narrow MM headstock).

Here's a pic of that git-fiddle.
http://entimg.msn.com/i/LiveEarth/liveshow/SexiestPerformances/Sexy_Urban_Reuters_400.jpg

However, here's a pic of him playing a MM. I would put money that the song was recorded with that Junior and not a MM.
http://illinoisentertainer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/keith-urban-2.jpg

MVrider

03-17-2008, 12:17 PM

OK, kids, if you REALLY want P-90's to sound good, you MUST have a guitar with a LONG scale length, i.e, 25 1/2" . With shorter scale lengths (e.g., Les Pauls) the strings lose all their snap and they end up sounding like worn-out rubber bands. Couple that with the dark-sounding mahogany in the body and all the "slice" and response is gone from your sound on a short-scale guitar.

OTOH, P-90s sound MARVELOUS with the longer scale (same as Tele's, Strat's, ES-5's and L-5's use.) The longer scale length creates higher string tension which puts back all the snap that P-90's lose due to their big magnets and huge coils of wire.

Since almost no one else would do it, I even had Fender build me a long-scale P-90 Les Paul.

It looks like a Tele, Fender thinks it's a Tele (don't tell them what I/they did) but down deep inside it's a long-scale Les Paul (maple on mahogany) Or is it a solid-body ES-5??? LOL

Yes, I DO like P-90s AND I know how to make them work, thank you very much. Good luck in your quest.

Trivia: The long scale length is also what Les Paul had on his original electric guitar, "The Log", for most of his famous recordings.

HRydarcik

03-17-2008, 01:06 PM

You work the tone knob on your tele, dontcha? Set the amp to sound good with the neck pup and expect to pull some volume or tone off with the bridge.

I do that with my humbucker equiped guitars as well...I get a good neck pickup tone and then usually have to roll the tone on my bridge up down in the 3-4 range...that usually works quite nice...I very rarely have the tone all the way up on my bridge pups...not matter what the guitar.