Fuzz: cleaning up - while keeping volume constant?

[carljoensson]

Hi,
I'm a happy owner of a SunFace NKT-275 fuzz. I very much like the idea of being able to sculpt different fuzz/overdrive sounds by working the volume knob.

But, if I roll off volume for a cleaner sound - I also get a whole lot less volume? So how do I go about to keep the volume up?

Is the key to stack it with some other pedal?

Thanks for advice,

Carl

[StompBoxBlues]

How are you setting the Fuzz knob on yours?

Because, every fuzz I have played, when the fuzz is up high, is the exact opposite of your experience. In fact, I get amazed and this is one of the tests I do on new fuzzes...slowly bring down the guitar volume control, and see how low it goes before I notice any appreciable volume loss...some fuzzes get down to 2 or 3 on the guitar vol before losing volume of any notice.

Normally, if I have the fuzz knob close to max, I get super-fuzz and high volume at 10, somewhere between 7-9 it gets OD sounding, with very slight volume loss, lower it starts cleaning up more but no real loss than I had at that point somewhere in 7-9. No appreciable loss anywhere in there.

[carljoensson]

How are you setting the Fuzz knob on yours?

Because, every fuzz I have played, when the fuzz is up high, is the exact opposite of your experience. In fact, I get amazed and this is one of the tests I do on new fuzzes...slowly bring down the guitar volume control, and see how low it goes before I notice any appreciable volume loss...some fuzzes get down to 2 or 3 on the guitar vol before losing volume of any notice.

Normally, if I have the fuzz knob close to max, I get super-fuzz and high volume at 10, somewhere between 7-9 it gets OD sounding, with very slight volume loss, lower it starts cleaning up more but no real loss than I had at that point somewhere in 7-9. No appreciable loss anywhere in there.


Hi,
I run the Fuzz knob at max, and keep the internal trimpot at max counterclockwise (=max fuzz). And yes, I do find there's a volume loss. I should say I've only been trying this at home with my practise amp at bedroom levels - but I don't see what difference that would make.

I play a stock 2004 Fender American Vintage series stratocaster. What I've observed is that there's a significant drop between guitar volume 10 to 9, but it continues to drop when rolling back further.

Thanks for the input/Carl

[StompBoxBlues]

Hi,
I run the Fuzz knob at max, and keep the internal trimpot at max counterclockwise (=max fuzz). And yes, I do find there's a volume loss. I should say I've only been trying this at home with my practise amp at bedroom levels - but I don't see what difference that would make.

I play a stock 2004 Fender American Vintage series stratocaster. What I've observed is that there's a significant drop between guitar volume 10 to 9, but it continues to drop when rolling back further.

Thanks for the input/Carl

Hey...well, it may well be less noticeable at higher volumes than bedroom levels. But usually it goes the other way...I noticed when I tried to make multi-effects patches, and though I had the volumes about the same "at bedroom levels" and noticed HUGE hops or drops in volume when playing at band levels.

I'm stumped. I just plain don't experience that. I play at slightly higher than bedroom levels (I play normally these days at levels that you couldn't play if you lived in an apartment) and I just get amazed at how well volume seems to stay the same. In fact, I run into a different problem...if I want to turn off the fuzz...suddenly my clean guitar is muted.

One possible solution, a volum pedal AFTER all dirt pedals....you could adjust so that the volume pedal was 3/4 floored for your high gain sound, and if you move the guitar volume down you'd have a 1/4 again to go on the output volume to make up for it.

I would have suggested maybe it was the guitar electronics, but I also have an American Standard Strat, I did change the pickups but it was doing the same as now for me before. I haven't modded this one at all with bypass caps or anything...

Sorry, I don't have more help to offer.

[carljoensson]

Hey...well, it may well be less noticeable at higher volumes than bedroom levels. But usually it goes the other way...I noticed when I tried to make multi-effects patches, and though I had the volumes about the same "at bedroom levels" and noticed HUGE hops or drops in volume when playing at band levels.

I'm stumped. I just plain don't experience that. I play at slightly higher than bedroom levels (I play normally these days at levels that you couldn't play if you lived in an apartment) and I just get amazed at how well volume seems to stay the same. In fact, I run into a different problem...if I want to turn off the fuzz...suddenly my clean guitar is muted.

One possible solution, a volum pedal AFTER all dirt pedals....you could adjust so that the volume pedal was 3/4 floored for your high gain sound, and if you move the guitar volume down you'd have a 1/4 again to go on the output volume to make up for it.

I would have suggested maybe it was the guitar electronics, but I also have an American Standard Strat, I did change the pickups but it was doing the same as now for me before. I haven't modded this one at all with bypass caps or anything...

Sorry, I don't have more help to offer.


Well, thanks anyway for taking the time to answer! Much appreciated, maybe someone else will chime in later. Especially interesting if there's anyone with experience from a germanium Sun Face.

Thanks again,

Carl

[Mapleneck]

I have been a Ge fuzzface devotee for sometime now. Here is what I have learned. First off, in general, pay no attention to what you hear at home. It DOES make a difference. What you hear at home usually has no bearing on what you will hear on a stage. Second, notice how when you back off the volume into your fuzz three things actually happen - fuzz cleans up, a small amount of volume drop, and tone gets brighter. In a mix, it is that brighter tone that becomes the dominant feature. That brighter tone cuts through the mix very well and more than offsets the small amount of volume drop. Actually, because of its darker nature, you will find that it is the louder, full volume, max fuzz tone that you have a hard time getting to cut through a mix. When you do get it to cut through, it is great. But it doesn't happen automatically some nights. When you finally get the full-on tones to work, you will start to count on that little extra volume on top to act as an afterburner for your solos. I never have a problem with the rolled back tones being heard.

If you do continue to have problems with the rolled back tones, I have had a lot of success with my little treble booster clone. I put it after the fuzzface ala analogmans Sunlion and turn them both on. It compresses the front end of your amp enough that volume change is almost non-existant. Still have all the guitar volume cleanup though which is very cool. The down sides are the tone changes (which I don't mind because it sounds cool) and I now actually have a problem NOT getting that slight volume jump at max volume which I count on for solos. Hope you find this accurate and helpful. Happy fuzzing!

[carljoensson]

Hi Mapleneck and thanks for chiming in!

Lots of interesting and experienced knowledge there! I'll see if I'll get any wiser. Since my last post, earlier today I've gotten home and experimented a little.

I noticed this: when running the Sun Face into my OD switched on, (T-Rex Moller), the overall volume drop is lesser noticeable. The "eq" of the OD-pedal however seems to steal some of the rich dark frequencies from the SunFace.

For fun I measured the signal drop by running the pedals into my Space Echo which has a VU-meter. And yes, I'm not imagining the volume change. It shows very well on the meter.

Thanks again,

Carl

[waveydb]

Great thread- lots of useful info- thanks everyone!
What particular fuzzes "clean up" well?
Germanium cleans up better than silicon- right?

[StompBoxBlues]

Great thread- lots of useful info- thanks everyone!
What particular fuzzes "clean up" well?
Germanium cleans up better than silicon- right?

Yes! in my experience anyway. Also, as a general thing, ge fuzzes that get really sick fuzz seem to clean up better....like the more out over-the-top they can get, the better they seem to clean up. I could be wrong on that, but it seems like it.

[dad gad]

Do you have a treble bleed cap on you volume pot? That might help. I use the '69 on my tele and it actually gets a lttle louder, or should I say, clearer, when I roll back on the volume a bit.

[carljoensson]

Do you have a treble bleed cap on you volume pot? That might help. I use the '69 on my tele and it actually gets a lttle louder, or should I say, clearer, when I roll back on the volume a bit.

Hi,

You mean on the guitar? Uuuhm, well since my guitar is a stock Fender strat (american vintage series) I don't really know. Do they usually come with one or is that a mod? And if it is a mod? Why would you do it, what are the benefits and what is the trade-off, i e what would you lose by doing it?

If you have a treble bleed cap, does it mean it gets brighter every time you roll back (I mean, no matter if a ge-fuzz is connected.)?

I was going to say I'll have a look inside the guitar, but... ouch, there are really a lot of screws holding the pickguard in place. So, if anyone knows already I'd be glad to hear their information.

Thanks for the info/tip!!

Carl

[Mapleneck]

From my experience Ge fuzzface clones clean up like nothing else. On most guitars, they are pristene clean by 6 or 7 on the average guitar volume knob. If you have a treble bleed network with a couple resistors (those tend to re-slope the volume pot of your guitar) then you have to go a little farther to clean it up, but the net result is the same. If you have just a treble bleed cap, you will get even brighter than normal as you turn down, with or without a fuzz. (Pots tend to have a lot of capacitance and they roll of high end as you turn down the volume. The cap routes the high freqs straight around the pot so that they aren't attenuated. The lower frequencies can't pass through the cap, so they are forced through the pot as normal and get attenuated So the opposite of before now occurs and you get brighter instead of darker as you roll down the volume). Fuzzes brighten up as you turn down, and lots of amps will thin out as you turn down. So if your guitar brightens up also, it might be too much. I have only come across a handful of guitars that really need a TB cap IMO. Old teles with 1-meg pots are a good example. But that is another story.

Ge fuzzes tends to clean up better than Si fuzzes as a rule, but Si tends to have quite a bit more gain and fizz. I have decided that how well a Ge fuzz really cleans up depends on the gain, of course, and the tone of the particular fuzz in question. The high freqs are the last to clean up it seems. So a bright fuzz will seem not to clean up as well as a darker fuzz. As an example, I had a London and a Diaz that both had a nearly identical amount of gain (going by ear). But the Diaz was brighter than the London. At similar settings the London cleaned up a little faster than the Diaz. The fuzz that was still present on the Diaz at the same level the London became clean? The very highest frequency fizz. Both were nearly identical fuzzface circuits (the Diaz had a 2k fuzz pot and a larger output resister). Admittedly I have only anecdotal evidence from my several fuzzes through the years. You techies that have spent time in the theory of the fuzz circuit might completely dispell this belief. And I know enough to know that it could be pure coincedence that my observations led me to believe this. But that is my experience. But I think this is the case. Darker (gains remaining equal) means faster cleanup. Ooh, I just thought of a cool song title. "The Gain Remains the Same".

[Denyle_Guitars]

What you're describing is a result of the basic fuzz face design. There have been various tricks to help lessen the effect but essentially, it's the changing impedance as the volume knob is rolled back. A treble bleed cap in the guitar can help, especially if it's done with a parallel resistor. If you want to read more, check out the fuzz face tech article from Geofex. Putting a buffer in front of the fuzz sometimes helps, but of course, changes the pedal's behavior.

[dad gad]

The bleed cap alows more highs to come thru as you lower the volume. It is a mod and I would consult a tech if it seems like too many screws to loosen on the pickguard.

[carljoensson]

The bleed cap alows more highs to come thru as you lower the volume. It is a mod and I would consult a tech if it seems like too many screws to loosen on the pickguard.

:rollNo, I was just lazy! I can solder and I've got the gear. Thanks!!/C

[sandman]

I've got a TF Huckleberry - Ge/Si fuzzface with different tonestack. Strat cleans it up a lot faster than Tele with P90s. Tele's got a two vol/two tone controls configuration and some cool stuff happens with rolling off tone controls too. On certain setting with tone rolled of it gets fuzzier, rawer and get some serious edge. Chages the contour if clipping and cuts way better.

I didn't notice much of a volume drop with a Tele. It goes all the way down to sparkly cleans from full on wall of sound fuzz. Love the Huck.

[carljoensson]

I've got a TF Huckleberry - Ge/Si fuzzface with different tonestack. Strat cleans it up a lot faster than Tele with P90s. Tele's got a two vol/two tone controls configuration and some cool stuff happens with rolling off tone controls too. On certain setting with tone rolled of it gets fuzzier, rawer and get some serious edge. Chages the contour if clipping and cuts way better.

I didn't notice much of a volume drop with a Tele. It goes all the way down to sparkly cleans from full on wall of sound fuzz. Love the Huck.


Hi,
Well, another thought popped up? would it be easier to achieve constant volume with hotter pickups? Or, I guess no. Fuzz would be fuzzier with volume at max and cleanup would come later, but with the same volume drop?

Thanks,
/C

[StompBoxBlues]

I just tried again (because of this thread) last night on my Sunface.

At lower (like you mention bedroom volumes) YES...there was a much more noticeable drop in volume which evened out much more as I turned up the amp and/or volume on the fuzz.

Now, it may be only perception, but it seems like there is a certain "threshold" of loudness, that once you cross it, and it is not THAT loud but most likely too loud for apartments, things just even out a lot more.

Which is strange, because as I mentioned before, when programming multi-effects pedals I used to experience the opposite...playing at low levels I thought I had the volumes of the different patches pretty even, at higher levels it was a huge difference between them..but there too...there was some threshold where this was more apparent, just went the other way.

I can't explain it yet, but it definitely is noticeable. You ought to try playing at louder levels just to see if you get the same effect?

[carljoensson]

I just tried again (because of this thread) last night on my Sunface.

At lower (like you mention bedroom volumes) YES...there was a much more noticeable drop in volume which evened out much more as I turned up the amp and/or volume on the fuzz.

Now, it may be only perception, but it seems like there is a certain "threshold" of loudness, that once you cross it, and it is not THAT loud but most likely too loud for apartments, things just even out a lot more.

Which is strange, because as I mentioned before, when programming multi-effects pedals I used to experience the opposite...playing at low levels I thought I had the volumes of the different patches pretty even, at higher levels it was a huge difference between them..but there too...there was some threshold where this was more apparent, just went the other way.

I can't explain it yet, but it definitely is noticeable. You ought to try playing at louder levels just to see if you get the same effect?


Hi again,
Interesting! I'll certainly try that. Thanks//Carl

[KagakuNinja]

I will just chime in and say that I use a Sunlion (which is a Sunface + Beano Boost), and I don't really notice the volume drop. As others say, there is a small drop as you roll off the volume, but it doesn't bother me. I keep the fuzz at max, and the sun knob at 12:00

The experience of "less volume drop" when playing loud is presumably due to compression as the amp is pushed harder (and maybe the non-linear response of the human ear). Try a compressor after your dirt pedals.

I also use a volume pedal after my dirt. This enables me to do volume swells without problems due to the way the fuzz interacts with the guitar. I found that a normal guitar volume pedal (high impedance) didn't work so well. I am using a buffer in front of a low impedance volume pedal.

Fender Jaguar -> Sunlion -> Teese RMC3 -> Rat -> Micro Buffer -> Boss FV-500L