Amps, pedals and crutches

[fierce_carrot]

Wife and I went out last night and saw 3 different bands and when watching them play, I saw that some things with guitarists never change. There is far too much reliance on pedals and especially distortion/overdrive devices as crutches.

All of the guitarists had pedal boards and of the 3 bands, only one used the pedal board as a true "effect" to enhance the tone, actually playing into and with the effect to achieve a result, the other bands stepped on the pedals and the only thing that changed was that their tone went from bad to worse.

Each of the guitar players was talented in playing the guitar, but not in playing the effects. The one player who had it all figured out was using the smallest amp of them all, and his tone was clear and singing. The pedal added to the tone, and then he changed his playing to correspond to that tone.

The others were way too overdriven and then when solos came up, they stepped on their boost/overdrive pedals and the tone instantly went buzzy and turned to fecal matter.

I enjoy the sounds of effects when used correctly but you have the be able to hear the nuances of them. Heavy distortion hides that and just washes tone out.

Do yourselves a favor, go out and see other bands, listen with a critical ear, then apply that same critical ear to your own playing. If you have a Master Volume on your amp, try dialing out alot of the preamp distortion and cleaning your tone up. Your pedals will come alive if you do.

[rwe333]

Wife and I went out last night and saw 3 different bands and when watching them play, I saw that some things with guitarists never change. There is far too much reliance on pedals and especially distortion/overdrive devices as crutches.

Well, that's too bad. Can't say it echoes my experience, however.
Lots of fine players w/ great sounds locally and otherwise - some w/ no pedals other w/ tons.
So, no generalization applicable here.

[VaughnC]

I agree. I hear so many players set up for one sound (like a Strat on position 2 or 4 with heavy chorus) and never change anything from song to song. This is what I call a crutch. However, sometimes it takes several years of playing to figure out the best way to approach a song and how to use effects properly to enhance it. Personally, even though I have an FX pedal board, I like to use the minimum amount of "add-on's" to get the job done and focus more on my tone and how I'm sitting in the overall mix. But, it took me 40 years to figure all this out....so maybe there's still hope for those "other Guys" ;).

[TieDyedDevil]

Do yourselves a favor, go out and see other bands, listen with a critical ear, then apply that same critical ear to your own playing.


Where do you think these guitarists are getting the inspiration to play over-gained solos in the first place? :jo

[John Hurtt]

Tone is all subjective, we bash this about all the time. What you call crap another player might feel is perfect for his playing and the song. Then there is the entire guitar/amp group vs. the effects group....

[Lucidology]

On the opposite end of the spectrum..

I've heard far too many guys plug straight into an amp
or maybe with just an overdrive pedal... achieve very little,
if any musical tone change all night long ...

Wishing, as a listener for some kind of variation please ...

Taking the easy way out by plugging straight in without any pedals,
is just as much a crutch as any other approach...

[pbradt]

"I mean, I like the sound of a guitar player who makes that sound come out with his fingers, not with seven boxes he's got on the floor. A motherf*cker who can make it fuzz without a fuzz tone is a guitar-playin' motherf*cker."

Can I get an AMEN?

These days, the only pedal I use besides A/B boxes is a Fulltone Fat Boost and it's on all the time.

Nothin' on the floor, the fat boost is stashed behind the amp. Set and forget. Leave it on.

[pbradt]

On the opposite end of the spectrum..

I've heard far too many guys plug straight into an amp
or maybe with just an overdrive pedal... achieve very little,
if any musical tone change all night long ...I resemble this remark. I get tone changes by switching pickups and finger-picking, or yanking on the tone knob.

Teles have a zillion tones in them, in the hands of the right player. Chorus, delay, flangers and such are for girls.

Sorry, man.

[Lucidology]

I resemble this remark. I get tone changes by switching pickups and finger-picking, or yanking on the tone knob.

Teles have a zillion tones in them, in the hands of the right player. Chorus, delay, flangers and such are for girls.

Sorry, man.

But Pete.. that's exactly what I meant a lot of cats
don't have the talent to do, when at least they can change it up with a pedal or two..

What you resemble my friend is the rare exception, Ala 'natural' skll ..
(i.e. true talent.. takes a lot of talent to switch it up like that ...)

I'm one of those wusses who simply likes the girly shit
tones you can just change with your foot ...

By the way, I gave my Fatboost to the bass player he loved it so much ,,,
__________________

[The Golden Boy]

There's a certain amount of gain that I feel that I need to feel good about playing.

There are people that feel they need reverb, chorus, delay, wah pedal... or whatever to be able to function. Not for effect, but to be able to play.

I don't really understand that- but looking at it as equivalent to my "need" for gain it makes a bit more sense to me.

[fierce_carrot]

There's a certain amount of gain that I feel that I need to feel good about playing.




Noting wrong with a certain amount of gain, but when there is TOO much gain, it smothers the effects. When the preamp volume is dimed, the pedals just aren't going to work like they are supposed to.

David Gilmour of Pink Floyd is the perfect example of how to dial it in.

[Slideman]

Great thread... I find that when I get on an effects kick I go overboard and I'm "dancing" on my pedals more than I'm playing -- time to go back to basics -- I plug straight into an amp with my tele -- sounds great and refocus on my playing with just what I have in my hands .... great for awhile and pretty liberating.. then boredom in dry tone sets in ... back to my effects.. and I'm back on my "effects addiction". What a cycle! :crazy

For me. learning from all this, I've paired down my set-up to do the effects basics, and to augment my basic tonw with what I don't have in my amp -- one boost (solos), one overdrive (lower volume OD), tremolo, reverb/echo -- and it's been a happy medium.. for now :rolleyes:

[scottywompas]

This conversation is all fine and dandy amongst us players but the reality is,the general public doesn't care what pedals we are using or if our tone is superb.

They want to hear Mustang Sally and they don't care whether your playing a strat into a twin or a paul into a monster pedal board and a two rock.

Scott:horse

[George Johnson]

There is far too much reliance on pedals and especially distortion/overdrive devices as crutches.

I don't understand how adding additional textures to your palette is considered a crutch.

[SFT]

There's a certain amount of gain that I feel that I need to feel good about playing.

damn, couldn't have said it better myself. I don't feel "satisfied" playing unless I have the right amount of gain on tap. That is why I play the electric guitar instead of acoustic. I need a rig that screams (no, not heavy smothering distortion, but natural heavy overdrive).

[Lolaviola]

Words that are bandied about on this forum like "open," "smooth," "dynamic," etc, take a certain ammount of gigging and playing experience to become able to be applied by the player, and even then he may not care to change.

[Guitar Josh]

I'm with the OP. In my mind, there is no dist or OD pedal on the planet that can match the tone a good amp can get. I use my amp's channel switching to get the majority of my tone. I use a FD2 and a vintage RAT to get those in between tones that my amp can't get without massive re-eq'ing. But when I play, 90% of the tone I get is what me, my guitar and my amp are putting out.

I spent 3 hours at Guitar Center yesterday trying out pedal after pedal (this GC has many boutique builds). I heard nothing that could beat my amp at stage volume.

Pedals should compliment, not create, your tone. There's an old story about EVH coming upon a young kid in a guitar store playing a cheapo kramer through a SS amp. Apparently the guitar was way out of tune, and EVH tuned it up for him and shot out a riff with incredible tone through the same equipment. Now I'm sure the story is at most part true and probably legend, but the moral remains true - YOU create your tone, not your effects.

[ed84246]

I can understand for the type of music you enjoy, that might not work for you but hell, pedals aside, most Boogies rely on cascading preamp stages to get a certain rounded tone and under this philosophy, I'm sure many acoustic players would say using an amp and electric guitar is a "crutch".

IMO - I think it's cool to have pedals that will give you sounds your amp can't and have more options. I have pedals that enhance the tone of my amp, but I have others that completely change it and take over. My Ibanez OD-9 and Burford Reefer Sitar simulator don't really care what amp they're being played through, yet they sound amazing to my ears and most people who hear them. And I don't do it on every song, but adding some backwards delay and the Digitech Whammy really makes things interesting - Tom Morello does a lot of this and I think he's one of the most innovative players around today.

[reticon]

I think pedals, certain guitar types, and amps could all be considred crutches... but they may also be considered an asset to ones tonal spectrum as long as its not overused. Years ago i played nothing but Ibanez RG and JEM guitars then someone handed me a les paul... they might as have handed me a flute, LOL, i was seriously limited.

Some of the coolest songs i've ever written were because of a new effects pedal i'd bought. Just kind of inspired me... but i know its good to turn 'em all off from time to time and just play straight into the amp to make sure i'm not falling behind ya know? It would really suck to realize that without a certain pedal, style of guitar, or certain amp, your less of a player.

reticon
http://www.guitarlab.org

[zachman]

IMO, it's ALL about CONTEXT. There is nothing wrong with tons of gain, a TOTAL lack of gain, using effects, or NOT etc... However; Getting GREAT tonal sound scapes is a SEPARATE art, than achieving proficiency on the guitar. ex. using a Tele and a Fender Deluxe Reverb to play Hardcore Death Metal (poor choice, IMO), OR Trying to play Joe Pass Jazz, with TONS of GAIN, and effects. (Another lame choice, IMO)

There are lots of guys who are KILLER players, whose tone is LAME as humanly possible, and there are guys who have very nice tone, who aren't particularly impressive as far as their facility on the guitar.

Sometimes, when choosing to use effects, subtlety is perfect for the job at hand, and sometimes it isn't.

Not everyone is an Allan Holdsworth, Michael Landau, Robert Fripp, Adrian Belew, in their desires for effects to be a part of their vibe, OBVIOUSLY, and therefore are content to play with little or no effects, but for those who do enjoy using tools to get textures NOT possible without them, I say go for it. Does this mean that using effects OR not is "Right" or "Wrong"? Nope, listeners will ALWAYS have preferences, which will determine the success of a given approach, on BOTH sides of the argument.

My $.02

[Lolaviola]

There are lots of guys who are KILLER players, whose tone is LAME as humanly possible, and there are guys who have very nice tone, who aren't particularly impressive as far as their facility on the guitar.

There are not really very many of these...:NUTS

[enditol]

I resemble this remark. I get tone changes by switching pickups and finger-picking, or yanking on the tone knob.

Teles have a zillion tones in them, in the hands of the right player. Chorus, delay, flangers and such are for girls.

Sorry, man.

Yeah... Holdsworth, Hendrix, Van Halen, Gilmour etc. etc. What a bunch of hacks.

[carlygtr56]

Wife and I went out last night and saw 3 different bands and when watching them play, I saw that some things with guitarists never change. There is far too much reliance on pedals and especially distortion/overdrive devices as crutches.

All of the guitarists had pedal boards and of the 3 bands, only one used the pedal board as a true "effect" to enhance the tone, actually playing into and with the effect to achieve a result, the other bands stepped on the pedals and the only thing that changed was that their tone went from bad to worse.

Each of the guitar players was talented in playing the guitar, but not in playing the effects. The one player who had it all figured out was using the smallest amp of them all, and his tone was clear and singing. The pedal added to the tone, and then he changed his playing to correspond to that tone.

The others were way too overdriven and then when solos came up, they stepped on their boost/overdrive pedals and the tone instantly went buzzy and turned to fecal matter.

I enjoy the sounds of effects when used correctly but you have the be able to hear the nuances of them. Heavy distortion hides that and just washes tone out.

Do yourselves a favor, go out and see other bands, listen with a critical ear, then apply that same critical ear to your own playing. If you have a Master Volume on your amp, try dialing out alot of the preamp distortion and cleaning your tone up. Your pedals will come alive if you do.


Cause you saw 3 guitar players, who, according to you couldn't dial in their tone, you make these broad statements?
How about supplying an example?

[RGB]

My Reinhardt Titan has the sweetest higher gain tones I've ever experienced, but to get there usually puts me in the too loud category for most of my gig situations. I mean, it sounds so great that I hate to use ANY pedals, but I rarely can run the amp loud enough to achieve that tone. This is where a great drive pedal can save your bacon and not as a crutch, but as a tool to help you get what you need for the situation. I rarely use ambient effects in the music I play, unless it's with a cleaner tone.

I've seen many players use pedals in ways that I wouldn't, but that's them and they're entitled, I guess.

[Terry Hayes]

"I mean, I like the sound of a guitar player who makes that sound come out with his fingers, not with seven boxes he's got on the floor. A motherf*cker who can make it fuzz without a fuzz tone is a guitar-playin' motherf*cker."

Can I get an AMEN?

These days, the only pedal I use besides A/B boxes is a Fulltone Fat Boost and it's on all the time.

Nothin' on the floor, the fat boost is stashed behind the amp. Set and forget. Leave it on.

Where does one draw the line on taking such a purist stance? Previous generations probably looked at the use of amplified instruments as being just as much of a crutch.

Perhaps some folks out there might look at your "high-falutin' amps, Fat Boost and A/B boxes" with equal disdain.

Terry

[michael patrick]

:horse

[RobertS.]

I'd love to see any of these "no pedal" tone purists play "Aint Talkin' 'Bout Love" with a telly into a twin minus a phaser, delay & some kind of overdrive.
Or Voodoo Chile without a wah. :D
It all comes down to the style of music IMO. I don't think the guitarist in a Johnny Cash cover band needs 3 different kinds of chorus or a Klon.
Been playing 40 years & can play with pedals or without but for my cover band, they're an absolute must!

[hudpucker]

On the opposite end of the spectrum..

I've heard far too many guys plug straight into an amp
or maybe with just an overdrive pedal... achieve very little,
if any musical tone change all night long ...

Wishing, as a listener for some kind of variation please ...

Taking the easy way out by plugging straight in without any pedals,
is just as much a crutch as any other approach...


+1

Tonal 'purity' at all costs mindset + mediocre player = boring and lame listening experience

[Guitar Josh]

My Reinhardt Titan has the sweetest higher gain tones I've ever experienced, but to get there usually puts me in the too loud category for most of my gig situations. I mean, it sounds so great that I hate to use ANY pedals, but I rarely can run the amp loud enough to achieve that tone. This is where a great drive pedal can save your bacon and not as a crutch, but as a tool to help you get what you need for the situation. I rarely use ambient effects in the music I play, unless it's with a cleaner tone.

I've seen many players use pedals in ways that I wouldn't, but that's them and they're entitled, I guess.


RGB, you make an excellent point here. This is also why I keep a distortion pedal in addition to the FD2 on my board even though I use my amp's lead channels. We played a small bar and my amp on 2 was deemed "too loud" by the manager. So I just used my vintage RAT for lead tones, sacrificed the amp's clarity and finished the show.

[Figher53]

It amazes me how people continue to insist that the type of tone that they like is the "right" tone for everyone else. Is it possible that the guitarists that were playing that night thought their tone was exactly what they heard in their wet dreams, and that maybe others in the audience were thinking the same? Or that if we set up our rigs and showed them what we thought was 'tone for the gods' that they'd think it sounded like complete ass?

Art is subjective, guys. If you don't like it, fine. But I think it's weird to be telling people that their art should be exactly like ours.

[English Jim]

I'd love to see any of these "no pedal" tone purists play "Aint Talkin' 'Bout Love" with a telly into a twin minus a phaser, delay & some kind of overdrive.
Or Voodoo Chile without a wah. :D
It all comes down to the style of music IMO. I don't think the guitarist in a Johnny Cash cover band needs 3 different kinds of chorus or a Klon.
Been playing 40 years & can play with pedals or without but for my cover band, they're an absolute must!

Absolutely.

Do I 'need' a trem pedal for 7 and 7 is or a fuzz box for Hurdy Gurdy Man to make them sound good - no, but I like it and the audience likes it too. Oh yeh anyone remember the audience? - the folks paying your wages! Ask them how they liked the grey haired pony tailed 'purist' noodling through 27 versions of a 12 bar in E useing his prized '64 335 direct into the blackface delux reverb. Witnessed this on Friday night. I wanted to kill myself after the 3rd 'song' but I had to wait to talk to the bored as hell sound guy.

Variety is the spice of life and if effects are good enough for Jimi, Holdsworth, Gilmore, EVH etc they're good enough for me.

[Andre357]

Absolutely.

Do I 'need' a trem pedal for 7 and 7 is or a fuzz box for Hurdy Gurdy Man to make them sound good - no, but I like it and the audience likes it too. Oh yeh anyone remember the audience? - the folks paying your wages! Ask them how they liked the grey haired pony tailed 'purist' noodling through 27 versions of a 12 bar in E useing his prized '64 335 direct into the blackface delux reverb. Witnessed this on Friday night. I wanted to kill myself after the 3rd 'song' but I had to wait to talk to the bored as hell sound guy.

Variety is the spice of life and if effects are good enough for Jimi, Holdsworth, Gilmore, EVH etc they're good enough for me.

:AOK:D I LOVE THIS POST !!! This to me is a thread ender if I ever saw one !!

[Terry Hayes]

Absolutely.

Do I 'need' a trem pedal for 7 and 7 is or a fuzz box for Hurdy Gurdy Man to make them sound good - no, but I like it and the audience likes it too. Oh yeh anyone remember the audience? - the folks paying your wages! Ask them how they liked the grey haired pony tailed 'purist' noodling through 27 versions of a 12 bar in E useing his prized '64 335 direct into the blackface delux reverb. Witnessed this on Friday night. I wanted to kill myself after the 3rd 'song' but I had to wait to talk to the bored as hell sound guy.

Variety is the spice of life and if effects are good enough for Jimi, Holdsworth, Gilmore, EVH etc they're good enough for me.


:D Excellent!

Terry

[John Phillips]

I've heard far too many guys plug straight into an amp
or maybe with just an overdrive pedal... achieve very little,
if any musical tone change all night long ...

Wishing, as a listener for some kind of variation please ...

Taking the easy way out by plugging straight in without any pedals,
is just as much a crutch as any other approach...
+10.

I resemble this remark. I get tone changes by switching pickups and finger-picking, or yanking on the tone knob.

Teles have a zillion tones in them, in the hands of the right player. Chorus, delay, flangers and such are for girls.Count me as a girl then :p. (I play in a girl band, so it's not such a big step ;).)


Tone and sounds aren't the same thing. It's perfectly possible to use tone variations on one basic sound creatively. It's also possible to use various sounds with the same basic tone creatively. Or both.

It's equally possible to be very uncreative with either approach, but I generally find the purist-type players with one basic sound and tone to be the most so.


Personally I use more sounds than tones, with my originals band. I rarely just stick an effect on and leave it on for the whole song though (unless the song calls for it, and then it will probably be one of several effects). Mostly I turn them on and off to accent certain parts and changes, sometimes quite short... I am the archetypal 'tap dancer' :). But actually, probably three-quarters of what I do is clean, with only one or two effects, and sometimes not even that. There are a couple of effects that only get used in a couple of places in an entire gig.

But when I recently played 'lead guitar' in a bar covers band, I didn't use any of my usual sounds, and apart from one distortion pedal, I did it all from the guitar. I didn't even have to think about it, it just obviously worked better like that.

It's very easy for those who don't use pedals (or reverb) to call them 'crutches'... perhaps it's because they haven't managed to learn how to use them. Actually I think it just needs a different - and at least as great - set of skills to use them properly. I don't use effects as a crutch, I use them to expand the range of what I can do musically, or simply because (like reverb) I like the sound of them. A 'crutch' would imply that somehow I couldn't play without them, which isn't true. I can play all my songs just as well on an acoustic guitar, so does that make an electric guitar and an amp crutches too?


Or, +1 for English Jim :D.

[lxm]

"solos" are LAME in general. write songs, NOT SOLOS!!! 'shivers' :horse

[jazzguitarplay]

i emphasize my playing first, using efx to slightly enhance what I'm trying to achieve. I like starting my live performances pretty much clean, then adding various colors as i go along to build my performance, If you play too many efx from the get go, then when you play totally clean, it can be anti-climatic. Its really like painting with notes and chords, emphasize your playing ability first, then augment what you do with effects

[ed84246]

"solos" are LAME in general. write songs, NOT SOLOS!!! 'shivers' :horse
Thank you Joan Baez.

[hudpucker]

Absolutely.

Do I 'need' a trem pedal for 7 and 7 is or a fuzz box for Hurdy Gurdy Man to make them sound good - no, but I like it and the audience likes it too. Oh yeh anyone remember the audience? - the folks paying your wages! Ask them how they liked the grey haired pony tailed 'purist' noodling through 27 versions of a 12 bar in E useing his prized '64 335 direct into the blackface delux reverb. Witnessed this on Friday night. I wanted to kill myself after the 3rd 'song' but I had to wait to talk to the bored as hell sound guy.

Variety is the spice of life and if effects are good enough for Jimi, Holdsworth, Gilmore, EVH etc they're good enough for me.



Bingo.

[GuitarsFromMars]

Gotta say I read this carefully.I understand where Pete is coming from.However,I am currently laying down/recording a LOT of guitar tracks(as many as 5-8 tracks per song-not doubling parts).I use two amps right now and will probably use a 3rd,and DI.I have a pedal board with 3 separate boost/od/compressions and 2 time based effects,as well,on it.I use whatever it takes to get the job done.Sometimes it's just the amp,sometimes it's not.

[English Jim]

Thank you Joan Baez.


Now that's funny!!!!:D

[Guitar Josh]

I went to a bar this weekend and saw a reasonably decent cover band. The guy used all five Line 6 pedals and a Boss Tuner straight into the PA. One guitar all night. Talked to him that night and he said that it was just easier and sounded better than a MEU or a modeling amp (although I'd argue that's pretty much what he was using). He said at the end of the night, it was great to just close the board, put your guitar in the case, and go home. But he got a nice variety of tones and mixed in some good effects here and there.

[Brett Valentine]

"solos" are LAME in general. write songs, NOT SOLOS!!! 'shivers' :horse

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I guess that makes me a lame girl. . . But I can write BOTH songs and solos, and I can do it with a wah pedal into a reverse echo, going into a completely wet reverb. . .
:dude:RoCkIn:JAM:D:crazyguy

[Lucidology]

"solos" are LAME in general. write songs, NOT SOLOS!!! 'shivers'

Just because someone write's original songs doesn't mean they are good songs ..

In fact by default, I cringe when the first thing someone proudly tells me is that they write songs ...
As too often it can indicate they do not play their instrument very well ...

[hawaii5_o]

I was watching YouTube vids of the 06 Guitar Center King of the Blues competition. It showed the top two guys and their final performances. They both used so much freaking distortion, it was awful. The winner was the worst. He sounded like a metal dude simulating the blues. You could tell that all that distortion was just covering up his sloppy playing. Not tasteful at all.

I think that's why I've been buying more and more "low gain" od pedals, like the LTD and even the RC Booster. The more I play live, the more I realize I don't need so much gain, and the more I turn the gain knob down.

[Flyin' Brian]

"I mean, I like the sound of a guitar player who makes that sound come out with his fingers, not with seven boxes he's got on the floor. A motherf*cker who can make it fuzz without a fuzz tone is a guitar-playin' motherf*cker."
Can I get an AMEN?
These days, the only pedal I use besides A/B boxes is a Fulltone Fat Boost and it's on all the time.
Nothin' on the floor, the fat boost is stashed behind the amp. Set and forget. Leave it on.

AMEN! All ya gotta do is listen to the Delbert Live album to hear TONE
Another thing I've noticed is guitar players who don't stop and think what music they're playing.
I just saw an otherwise very good R&B band with a great horn section and all, and the guitar player was using distortion half the time. Bruce Conte wouldn't use dirt sounds with Tower of Power...it would suck.

[Brett Valentine]

Oh man! Bruce Conte is amazing! The first time I heard that solo on the intro to "What is Hip?" I was hooked on that big, fat, "clean but searing" sound!

(. . .and just one of the sounds I reach for)

Brett

[shallbe]

On my board I have a wah, boost, overdrive, fuzz/octave, chorus, univibe clone, tuner and analog delay. My amp is a single channel Matchless with reverb and tremelo.

Seven effects, rarely more than one on at once. None on all the time. They get me all the sound I want or need. Besides the delay, there is nothing subtle about my effects. They sound huge, wonderful and rude--like something really happened--exciting for me and the audience, I hope. We play everything from funk to Steely Dan, are booked into next year, turning down gigs on a regular basis.

Do what makes you happy. I'm no girl, but I know how to make them happy. :)