To many Jazz Guitarists are using over drive

[jazzguitarplay]

of lately, too many jazz players are fuzzing out on some level. I know theres still lots of jazz cats who play clean but more and more you hear the younger bebop and jazz cats playing with overdrive and more. Where did this trend start?. Personally, I love both but say if you cant play it clean, keep od outta the scene. You cant imitate a horn with overdrive, or can you?

[Dana]

You can't?

http://www.oswego.edu/academics/opportunities/artswego/images/mikestern.jpg

[jzucker]

scofield has said in interviews he was trying to imitate saxophone. Same with McLaughlin. Lots of straight ahead players from Bollenback to Martino to Metheny have experimented with distortion.

I see no reason to mandate tone. For me, clean guitar tone and heavy strings is very period-piece(ish).

[rwe333]

...and what music/players did these young jazzers grow up on? Perhaps among their influences are guitarists that play w/ OD. Seems they're simply being respectful of their varied influences in search of their sound.
Lots of straightahead players playing clean, then/now. Why is this an issue to you? You go right ahead and play clean only.
And for certain OD tones came into jazz in part as some felt they could imitate a horn better w/ that sustain. Besides, while horn phrasing is important to acknowledge/absorb, I'm fine w/ a guitar sounding like, well, a guitar.

[CocoTone]

Slow news day??!?:jo

CT.

[Tom Gross]

That's what Stern said at the clinic I was at when somebody asked about his tone.....he acknowledged that a lot of folks think his tone sucks, just shrugged his shoulders and said "I think it sounds kinda like a horn".

[wiggumpi]

If there playing something that excites me I couldn't care less whether they are caked is dist. or super clean.

[jb70]

dude. this has been going on since the 60's. check out mclaughlin in 68 and 69. this is nothing new.

[ivers]

While I don't mind the clean hollowbody neck pickup sound, I've moved far away from seeing that as *the* jazz tone, and towards other sounds, like for instance a tele in 'fourth' position with OD, which I've been digging lately.

[Tag]

of lately, too many jazz players are fuzzing out on some level.


Agreed. Thats why I prefer listening to the guys who do not need it. Benson, Jones, Bollenbeck, Bernstein, Affif, Malone, Stryker, Johnson,van Ruler,Whitfield, Legrene,Luc.........

[Leucadian]

...it's not 1942...it's 2007...besides, wonderfully expressive playing can be achieved with a little overdrive...from the amp or a pedal...it don't matter.:AOK

...I also think a little sass aids in the bluesy side of improvising...nothing worse than some jazzer trying to bend a wound G with a kountry klean tone and no sustain...it can sound like doo-doo.:(

[lhallam]

Arguably it started with Miles and John McLaughlin.

[Doug H]

My dad has an old Wes Montgomery LP where he is flat out getting some break-up from the amp, and I don't think it's intentional. It's just due to playing loud with a tube amp in an organ combo, seemingly. It sounds pretty cool in a gritty sort of way.

I don't think a lot of the jazz giants were playing as clean as people seem to think they were...

[scottlr]

This seems to me that this is about jazz vs fusion? Traditional jazz players seem to keep it rather clean, while the fusion guys are more distorted. At least that's how I see/hear it. I like both, and want both.

[Lucidology]

Maiking music is more about feel & touch more then any kind of particular tone in my book...
If distortion, overdrive, chorus, delay or whatever
helps an individual express themselves creatively (i.e. play better)
Then I'd rather hear them use their pedals, then to be struggling without ...

[ivers]

My dad has an old Wes Montgomery LP where he is flat out getting some break-up from the amp, and I don't think it's intentional. It's just due to playing loud with a tube amp in an organ combo, seemingly. It sounds pretty cool in a gritty sort of way.

I don't think a lot of the jazz giants were playing as clean as people seem to think they were...

Wes also had quite a bit more treble to his sound than the sorta dull 'jazz' sound many use. I prefer Wes' approach, where you mellow the sound with technique rather than the tone knob.

[BBQLS1]

I like some Rock in my Jazz. I like the other stuff too though.

[Tag]

Maiking music is more about feel & touch more then any kind of particular tone in my book...
If distortion, overdrive, chorus, delay or whatever
helps an individual express themselves creatively (i.e. play better)
Then I'd rather hear them use their pedals, then to be struggling without ...


Agreed, and that is exactly why i think many of these guys use them.

[Brooks]

its all good.

[Bryan T]

Where did this trend start?

Charlie Christian?

You cant imitate a horn with overdrive, or can you?

Well, I think you can . . . But, more importantly, you can also not imitate a horn with overdrive.

Bryan

[Doug H]

I like to imitate an overdriven guitar with overdrive...

[Red Suede]

Is it cool for a guy to get bored and try something new and different? same notes, different tone. You want Picasso to paint using only red? Why should a guy be boxed in with only one thing his whole career? Just cause we love his old thing? Miles didn't do it, John Williams didn't do it, Clapton didn't do it, Brecker played with Cameo as well as Chick Corea, George Benson did some pop albums as well as playing with Tony Williams, etc......

[BBHollowbody]

why do you have to imitate a horn? why can't the guitar be considered an original jazz instrument. its been used since in jazz since the 30's.
As someone said, Charlie Christian would over drive his amp. he's pretty much the originator, right?

if the music doesn't grow, then its not jazz in my opinion. overdriven guitars is just one sign of that growth, as is the use of more modern harmony.

[jb70]

i think the whole "jazz overdrive thing" started because jazz guitar players in the late 60's were playing with drummers like tony williams, billy cobham, lenny white, etc... these guys were loud and intense. the guitar players had to turn up to be heard over the drums, electric bass, rhodes/wurlitzer. plus you had hendrix, clapton and jeff beck on the scene and i think the jazz guitar players realized that that was the kind of sound that they needed in order to match the intensity and the overall volume of the bands that they were playing in. also, i think that the guys that were around in the late 60's were looking for something different than what had been done before and using effects was a very natural progression. heck, even miles was playing thru a wah and a distortion pedal in the early 70's.

[cameron]

Next thing you know the surf players will start to play with overdrive, and then civilization as we know it will surely be on its last legs.

[Red Suede]

I read an article with some well known guitar a long time ago and he said he was trying to sound like a horn player. The note selection, not the tone. That made sense to me because the usual jazz guitar tone dosen't sustain and most jazzers don't bend notes. I never got it till I read that statement, then it made sense.

[jzucker]

Agreed. Thats why I prefer listening to the guys who do not need it. Benson, Jones, Bollenbeck, Bernstein, Affif, Malone, Stryker, Johnson,van Ruler,Whitfield, Legrene,Luc.........

Half those guys use distortion regularly...

[ToneGurus]

Too many jazz guitarists are trying to sound like piano.

Mike

[dkaplowitz]

Half those guys use distortion regularly...
Well when they do, it's probably because they "need" it. Since it's been well established that the only use for distortion (or synth guitar) is when you're not good with your instrument (see the Metheny Vs. Kenny G thread for clarification).

[jzucker]

Well when they do, it's probably because they "need" it. Since it's been well established that the only use for distortion (or synth guitar) is when you're not good with your instrument (see the Metheny Vs. Kenny G thread for clarification).

Or when you wanna break out one of your bruno amps :rolleyes:

[DejavuDave]

A voice is a voice to me; all is good as long as the voice serves the music well and doesn't overly distract from it.

[aeolian]

Howard Roberts is a very dirty guitar player, at least his tone in the 60's was pretty dirty.

I think folks heard Jimi, Jeff, Eric and company and realised that there was a world of sustain out there that they had been cut off from. Instead of limiting their musical vocabulary to short thunky notes, it was possible to utilize sustained notes as horn players did. Not that the guitar would necessarily sound exactly like a horn, but that horn like phrases were available.

Some early fuzz box/archtop playing is pretty awful. But folks eventually learned to merge the jazz guitar with the sustained tonality of rock guitar. If you want, you can force the term fusion on this, since it is a sort of fusion of previous styles with the capabilities of modern instruments. But by that logic, just about every advance in jazz was a sort of fusion. Either of new instruments, like virbrophones, or of different musical concepts, like latin or middle eastern.

[screamtone]

http://www.eldigoras.com/eom03/2003/0320/Miles-Davis-Eyes-1986.jpg

Your boundries have angered Miles.

[rorschah]

+1 on Charlie Christian, man. He's the deepest user of mild overdrive I've ever heard.

He's using teeny, tiny Gibson amps. Tons of distortion. Especially clear on his radio sessions that you can hear on the JSP box set, some other places... and I think that's the stuff that was the most influential way back when. There it is, the birth of jazz guitar, the Benny Goodman sextet, and the most glorious breakup and sing.

Even on the studio recordings, where there isn't as much obvious distortion. I was trying to copy some of his lines and I realized I couldn't get the hang and throb and sigh without a touch of OD.

-thi

[Gene]

That's right. I see way too much long hair and od boxes... Can't be a jazz (real) musician:D...

[Flyin' Brian]

Funny how things tend to get pigeon holed. If anybody's heard Howard Roberts 2 live "Magic Band cds, they combine:

Archtop acoustic with:
"Traditional " jazz tones
Controlled feedback
Huge bends (on 16s! how did he do that?)

And it's all good.

I took lessons from Henry Johnson in Chicago for a while. Great player in the Wes/Benson mold and a really good teacher but....he was dogmatic about what "jazz" was and part of it was the sound. He feels very strongly that when Miles electrified, it changed everything for the worse for jazz guitar. His list of people who he feels are "not jazz" include McLaughlin, Scofield, Metheny & Abercrombie. While I loved the stuff he was teaching me, I changed teachers because I wanted a wider more all inclusive viewpoint.

I now take lessons from Neal Alger, who is anything but traditional sometimes and very traditional when he needs to be. He's a taskmaster which is what I need and I'm lovin' it. If you're interested check out

"Gotcha" and "You Gotta Go" here:
http://http://www.patriciabarber.com/av/index.html (http://http//www.patriciabarber.com/av/index.html)

Straight ahead stuff here:
http://www.bmr4.com/audio.htm

Varied stuff here:
http://www.tymoneal.com/main.html

[KRosser]

of lately, too many jazz players are fuzzing out on some level. I know theres still lots of jazz cats who play clean but more and more you hear the younger bebop and jazz cats playing with overdrive and more.

Say it isn't so!!!! Good God, man, someone get them to STOP!


Where did this trend start?.

According to my own ears & research, Charlie Christian. That bastard ruined everything.

[aeolian]

The majority of "clean" jazz guitar I hear nowdays is within the "smooth jazz" context. When folks like Eubanks, Malone, Bollenbeck put out smooth jazz albums, it sounds like Wesbound. But when you catch them live or playing on someone else's straight ahead cut, things start dirtying up. And all of them are fully capable of playing with full on overdrive, bending strings, and playing "horn licks".

[braxton906]

It's all about the notes and what's being communicated....it's a LANGUAGE...clean, overdriven, underdriven, whatever....we have to peel ourselves away from our expectations and assumptions and truly listen to what's being said...if there's communication happening then I'd have to admit that its working...

[jamminoutloud1]

My opinion is, if one is using overdrive or distortion to cover up one's weaknesses or limits than I can see room for contraversy, but if a player sounds like he's playing great with the OD and the technique, ideas, and overall vibe is all there, than I say embrace it. I think it sounds for the most part very modern, futuristic, and relevant to today's music world anyway.
I also think that there are a lot of situations that if the player didn't use distortion or overdrive in the music, it would sound like complete CRAP.
A few guys to me who sound killin' with this type of sound is John Scofield, Scott Henderson, John Abercrombie, our own Scott Lerner, Mike Stern, and tons of other guys out there. And the way these guys seem to approach it is very tastefully, not like annoying heavy riffs and out of context ideas.
I go to a predominetely bebop school in Miami, and even I get a smile from the teachers when I use some overdrive on my sound. It's something new and fresh and anyone with an open mind can appreciate that...

[LavaMan]

TRAITORS! Say it isn't so...!:RoCkIn

[Lucidology]

Once watched a student made video of a Scott Henderson
demonstrating to his class how cool be-bop licks sound with overdrive...

He would first play a bop lick clean & then play the same lick with
overdrive which solicited immediate ohhs & ahhs from the class...

Scott even went so far as to say,
that if you want to really get a modern audience to pay attention
to your use of jazz licks in a solo, use overdrive ...

[daphil]

FWIW, I have a Charlie Parker CD called "At home with Bird" which is from the the late 40's. Anyway, the guitar player probably has his amplifier dimed to play over the drums and horns and gets the best crunchy, mean and expressive tone I ever heard.

There is nothing LESS expressive to me than the modern, muffled, flat, sterile so-called "traditional jazz guitar" tone. Bring out the mids!

[Tag]

There is nothing LESS expressive to me than the modern, muffled, flat, sterile so-called "traditional jazz guitar" tone.


:eek: You mean like this here??

http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5644304&q=hi

Yea, it sounds like he is REALLY having a problem expressing himself with that "flat, muffled traditional jazz guitar tone". :D

[Bryan T]

Tag,

Is that your playing?

Bryan

[Tag]

Tag,

Is that your playing?

Bryan

You are kidding right? Lol! One of my faves, the late great Billie Rogers. (Thanks Bill Chapin!)

[Bryan T]

You are kidding right? Lol! One of my faves, the late great Billie Rogers.

Yeah, I knew it wasn't you, but you really should mention who is playing in the description on the Soundclick page. All it said in the Soundclick window was, "Tag101 - BRB." It even lists Tag101 as the artist . . .

Bryan

[Jerrod]

In trying to decide if this was a groundbreaking debate, or a lame, tired re-hashing of "we walked to school uphill, both ways, in the snow, and always with a very clean tone," I chose door #2.

[daphil]

:eek: You mean like this here??

http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5644304&q=hi

Yea, it sounds like he is REALLY having a problem expressing himself with that "flat, muffled traditional jazz guitar tone". :D

Well...

There is actually some breakup in that tone either amp or speaker.

You misquoted me btw. I said There is nothing LESS expressive to me than the modern, muffled, flat, sterile so-called "traditional jazz guitar" tone. You obviously didn't notice that I was talking about ME, as a listener. "Traditional jazz guitar" tone is irony because what is nowadays often considered as such is so far from traditional.

[Doug H]

Those damn wild-assed jazz guitar players... What will they think of next?

[Tag]

Well...

There is actually some breakup in that tone either amp or speaker.





Then I am with you! BRING ON THE DISTORTION!! :BEER

[jb70]

billy rogers was sooo bad! it's a shame that he really didn't record anything. the only cd that i'm aware of is the one where they brought in the rhythm section to accompany his existing tracks.

[sethmeister]

I'm amazed how musically conservative some of you guys are. Music is all about change and finding new ways to express passion. I don't give a hoot if a guy is playing a 4 pickup hoozyblaster into a rat pedal through an electrimafied washing machine as long as he can make it sing.

:AOK

[jazzguitarplay]

Say it isn't so!!!! Good God, man, someone get them to STOP!




According to my own ears & research, Charlie Christian. That bastard ruined everything.

if you think Charlie Christian played overdrive?. Maybe his amp or what ever was breaking up competing with the volume of a big band but CC was a clean player

[Bryan T]

if you think Charlie Christian played overdrive?. Maybe his amp or what ever was breaking up competing with the volume of a big band but CC was a clean player

Check out the recording called "After Hours." (http://www.amazon.com/After-Hours-Charlie-Christian/dp/B00004SUFN/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/002-6988506-9773617?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1186600064&sr=8-4) It has CC playing with a small combo. The guitar amp is definitely overdriving. Check out the clip for "Swing to Bop."

Bryan

[jazzguitar]

I always get a kick out of these debates... The Django fans look down their noses to anyone who plugs in!

[jazzguitarplay]

In a way, I think straight ahead jazz guitar players have always been more concerned about technique, and in a band situation, cutting thru the loud mix of drums, bass, keys, and horn players. When I first listen to a Jazz guitar player, I'm always first most interested in there vocabulary of single notes octaves chords intervals comping and the general combination of these plus the feel emotion and connection to there audience. When you listen to sax players, you concentrate on what there saying thru there instrument and connect in that way. Of course there are exceptions like circular breathing, multi phonics, and other efx but there mostly based on there note choice to move us, with exceptions like Ornette and Coltrane and others, unless there playing thru a ewe which i never really dug that much, maybe except the late Michael Breacker. When you stomp on the od box, and start playing single lines, yea, it gives your solo more volume, zest and tone of expression, but all the greatest Jazz guitar players had to relay on reaching people thru there over all technical approach to the instrument. Its hard to take a all out octave or chord solo with od/distortion on, thus mainly turning you into a single note instrument. Again, I'm not putting this approach or evolution down, i do it to, and so do many other players. I also sometimes think a lot of players hide behind there fat over driven tone. One person here said you can grab a audience quicker if you play over driven rather then clean. Maybe thats true today, but I still think you should develop your sound thru expression of the evolution of your harmonic and melodic concepts before jumping on od or sustain pedals. With the advent of Rock and Roll, we've been conditioned to think that the clean sound of a Guitar is not legitimate compared to other instruments, thin in comparison, so we over compensate with sound efx, again, nothing wrong with. I just see too many younger jazz players counting on it a bit too much instead of developing there own clean sound before they start jumping on od pedals to over compensate for lack of good musica technique and musicall foundations. Theres always exceptions out there. Weve been conditioned to be insecure about our tone, some thinking its just dark and muddy as jazz players. Of course this is wrong cause when you combine great technique and great tone, it becomes a un stopable combination. Learn to shred clean before you shred dirty, people will know the difference

[Tag]

I always get a kick out of these debates... The Django fans look down their noses to anyone who plugs in!


:confused: Django plugged in too. Plugging in for cleans is really not much different than playng acoustically into a mic. As a matter of fact, many are STILL trying to get acoustic electronics to sound as close to that as possible.

[Tag]

Once watched a student made video of a Scott Henderson
demonstrating to his class how cool be-bop licks sound with overdrive...

He would first play a bop lick clean & then play the same lick with
overdrive which solicited immediate ohhs & ahhs from the class...

Scott even went so far as to say,
that if you want to really get a modern audience to pay attention
to your use of jazz licks in a solo, use overdrive ...


Yea, and it was all rock players in the audience. Not to many jazz players are going to be attending a SH clinic.

[Solomon]

In a way, I think straight ahead jazz guitar players have always been more concerned about technique, and in a band situation, cutting thru the loud mix of drums, bass, keys, and horn players. When I first listen to a Jazz guitar player, I'm always first most interested in there vocabulary of single notes octaves chords comping and the general combination of these plus the feel and emotion. When you listen to sax players, you concentrate on what there saying thru there instrument and connect that way. Of course there are exceptions like circular breathing, multi phonics, and other efx but there mostly based on there note choice to move us, with exceptions like Ornette and Coltrane and others, unless there playing thru a ewe which i never really dug that much, maybe except for the late Michael Breacker. When you stomp on the od box, and start playing single lines, yea, it gives your solo more volume and tone and expression in various ways, but all the greatest Jazz guitar players had to relay on reaching people thru there over all approach to the instrument. Its hard to take a all out octave or chord solo with od/distortion, thus mainly turning you into a single note instrument. Again, I'm not putting this down, i do it to, and so do many other players. I also sometimes think a lot of players hide behind there fat over driven tone. One person here said you grab a audience quicker if you play over driven rather then clean. Maybe true today, but I still think you should develop your sound thru expression of the evolution of your harmonic and melodic concepts before jumping on od or sustain pedals. With the advent of Rock and Roll, we've been conditioned to think that the clean sound of a Guitar is not legitimate compared to other instruments, so we over compensate with sound efx, again, nothing wrong with. I just see too many younger jazz players counting on it a bit too much instead of developing there own clean sound before they start jumping on od pedals to over compensate for lack of good musical foundations. Theres always exceptions out there. Weve been conditioned to be insecure about our tone, some thinking its just dark and muddy as jazz players. Of course this is wrong cause when you combine great technique and great tone, it becomes a un stopable combination.

Maybe my analogy is a bad one but is this not similar to how any language changes? Seen any modern literature using Old English prose? Why should the musical language be any different?

[jgyn]

When I was learning to play jazz, I wanted to sound like the horn players. Jazz guitarists post Christian and Reinhardt, while great guitarists, did not man the cutting edge of jazz like Miles Davis, Coltrane, Shorter, Tyner, etc..(except for John McLaughlin). So, to sound more hornlike, I always played with some form of overdriven or, at least, a non muted sound, even in ballads.

[musicofanatic5]

I reverentially dig the hell out of Django's initial acoustic output, but his later electric stuff is too cool, especially with his little amp driven to breakup. Live Charlie Christian: again, an under powered amp breaking up. Some might say it's not jazz (as I do about Scott Hendersen), but the early gtrists with Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys (especially Jr. Barnard)
are driving the piss outta their forties-era fender amps. I can also dig some of the early efforts by Coryell and McLaughlin, but for me the prototype of jazz gtr will forever be the clean tone of Green, Burrell, Monte, etc.

[rockinrob]

This is the kind of thread where I usually get ignored, but I'll post my thoughts anyway... :o


What I find interesting is when you play a fine archtop without plugging it in you'll hear a bit of distortion, and even more of it when you dig in. In fact, if you play really hard you'll get a nasty, raspy sort of sound. I always thought that the older tube amps were a natural pairing with these guitars, as they recreated this in a musical way.

But there's a big differenece between a little overdrive and flat out rock distortion. I favor clean jazz players, always have. I've realized it's because what I would think of as a good distorted tone doesn't really lend it's self to jazz phrasing. Distortion is compression, and you tend to lose dynamics. Playing swinging 8th notes sounds bad through a rig that would kill for classic rock.

There are a couple guys that get by- Scofield for instance. He has what I would call a bad tone, but it works for him- he makes it sound good. But by strictly judging his tones, when he's using distortion it's kind of a bad, funky sound.

Most of the other guys I've heard that use a lot of distortion don't really swing thier lines, thier playing more fusion stuff- straighter rhythms. Mclaughlin especially.

I have to say I hate the standard cookie cutter cardboard sound that's so popular now- a Benedetto or similar with a floating minibucker through an Acoustic Image or similar hi-fi sounding SS amp. It's like you take a good guitar sound, remove all the character and attitude, and that's what's left. But there's a lot of room between that and a classic rock distorted sound.

[stratzrus]

When I'm in a "I want to play some jazz" frame of mind, clean "big box guitar" is the sound I hear in my head (of course I'm an old fart).

That it is in fact "very period-piece(ish)" is for me very much a part of it's appeal...it takes me to another time and place where I envision the adults of my childhood putting on jackets and ties and going to the Aqua Lounge to hear 'Trane or Monk or Kenny Burrell, etc... Often I just put on a fifties frame of mind and have at it.

But at any other time I'll use anything available that will get the tones I want including gain, delay, modulation, whatever, and will segue from Jazz to R&B to Funk to Rock within a given solo and not give it a second thought. In fact, on the whole, I don't find categories or rigid definitions to be very helpful. Purism is a valid stance but certainly not the only valid one and ultimately tends to be constrictive rather than liberating, but when someone says "jazz guitar" the sound that comes to my mind is Kenny.

Does this mean that if you use distortion or effects it's not real jazz? Of course not, but I like the fact that there's a tradition that I respect and can be part of when I choose. It's like a warm blanket (think Linus) that's always there for me in my mind, and sometimes even in my fingers.

Every style has it's place, but I have much love for the clean big box style of playing jazz guitar and have great respect for those who continue the tradition.

stratzrus

[Strung Up]

Isn't there some sort of legislation pending in NY, NJ, and MA regarding the amount of allowable THD per eigth note?

Thank goodness the great 'chorus purge' of the '90s sent many offenders off to the gulag.

[OOG]

what's a "jazz guitarist"?

if one plays
Don't Fence Me In
is he still a "jazz guitarist"?

why doesn't Jimmy Bruno play a Bruno amp?

:crazy:crazy:crazy:crazy:crazy:crazy

[teleharmonium]

I'm amazed how musically conservative some of you guys are. Music is all about change and finding new ways to express passion. I don't give a hoot if a guy is playing a 4 pickup hoozyblaster into a rat pedal through an electrimafied washing machine as long as he can make it sing.

There is a difference between overall musical conception, and understanding/respect/affinity for a particular style.

There's no sound, technique, or concept I've ever come across that I'm not open to artistically, except illegal sampling, which is because of ethics rather than aesthetics. The more out there, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

But when you're talking about a particular style of music that came from a certian cultural context, you are not fully appreciating and "getting" what that style is if you make no distinctions about who is playing the music, when they are doing it, and how and why. Music isn't some random patterns that can be freely transplanted across times, audiences, and cultures without fundamentally affecting what it is and what it means.

Authenticity and sincerity are huge factors for me in determining which CDs and LPs to buy. I listen to many styles of music, and if some style later turns into something else, that can be cool too. But it doesn't make it the same as the original thing, and I do not listen to or take seriously musicians or artists that claim to work, replica style, in some long dead form of music, except rarely when it is out of historical interest because the original style predates recording technology. Sometimes those records are so bad, you wonder if they even understand what was cool about the original. That whole mentality is just like the print in your dentists' office by some guy that did it in the 1980s and calls himself an impressionist.

Some people don't care and just identify themselves as liking a certian style, and if some new guy that comes along that can do stuff that makes them happy, they will buy it. And, that's fine, there's not a victim in that scenario, except maybe the person that runs across the replica before the original and makes the mistake of judging the original that they haven't encountered by the replica that they have. I know there is a market for that kind of stuff. But, it also has its limits, and at some point there is a brick wall as far as the marketability and respect accorded to the replica, because of people like me. The replica very seldom compares favorably or even reasonably well to the original in my experience; it's just like when movies are remade or when bands get back together after decades apart. It almost never works well, and when it does, it is more of an update than a conservatory style recreation of the past.

The bottom line is that creating something new is a fundamentally different activity than working in an established style. Trying to pass off one for the other is false advertising. If you are inspired by what someone did when they made something new, you should do something new, not do what they used to do...

It's easy to avoid all these pitfalls; just do something new, that is your own, and reflects all of your experience, life, and tastes. Musicians put themselves in these boxes, not audiences.

[rockinrob]

.... I bet all those purist swing/jazz horn players thought CC was crazy, or at least some of them


I think they understood that those were the limits of the technology at the time. I mean those horn players sounded just as distorted when playing through a low powered PA system than Christian through his amp.

[WeAreOurGear]

Charlie Christian?



Well, I think you can . . . But, more importantly, you can also not imitate a horn with overdrive.

Bryan

Holdsworth developed his legato style by imitating horns. But he does not have to pause for breath so the lines can go on and on and on!:RoCkIn

Personally I like it all. I'm more into what you play (note selection and inflection) vs how it sounds when you play it (i.e. tone):YinYang

[OOG]

if Les, Leo, Paul Bigsby-take your pick
had come around sooner
"jazz" guitars may have had solid bodies

it's called evolution

[GP_Hawk]

too many jazz guitarists wear shirts.

if G-d had intended them to wear shirts,
He'd have been the founder of Hanes, or Van Heusen,
or some such,
or, He In His Infinite Wisdom Might Have
maybe built a shirt
into your basic physical design.

i have no idea why these guys are so conflicted about it;
just take off the damned shirt, already;
it's clearly the work of Satan.
it really ruins most jazz gigs for me.

i've also noticed that too many jazz guitarists
love cheese, asparagus, coffee & making-a-living.

whassup with that?

btw:
where do y'all guys find all these "humble" opinions?
i need to find some for myself.

dt / spltrcl

100% agree on the shirts. But the pants.....this could end Jazz as we know it! Don't do it please!:D

[sethmeister]

or, He In His Infinite Wisdom Might Have
maybe built a shirt
into your basic physical design.



Clearly you have not seen my back hair!

:p

[Red Suede]

I think Holdsworth would be great playing clean. When he was playing the Synthaxe, that instrument's frets are all equally spaced, which would be hard in itself. Plus, to cause the thing to trigger properly, your right hand (and I suppose your left) would really have to be together, technique wise.

[Bassomatic]

Plus, to cause the thing to trigger properly, your right hand (and I suppose your left) would really have to be together, technique wise.

Also true of traditional geetars, no? (Although "properly" is sometimes the enemy of The Good).

[Lucidology]

I think Holdsworth would be great playing clean. When he was playing the Synthaxe, that instrument's frets are all equally spaced, which would be hard in itself. Plus, to cause the thing to trigger properly, your right hand (and I suppose your left) would really have to be together, technique wise.

The other way Holdsworth would get it to trigger properly
would to be to use extremely light strings which trigger the
pitch to midi connection a great deal faster ...
Indeed, from a very close, reliable, source, he even had it with strung
with 008's for every string ...

[aarondavis]

We should just not have opinions... and email/PM Tag to ask him what we should think/type. I've found everything he states routed in an immense experience in *landscaping*.;)

[Red Suede]

With a traditional guitar you don't have to worry about the pitch to voltage lag in terms of converting one type of pulse to another. Guitar is more immediate. That whole problem is mostly gone now, at least with the advent of the VG-8, but I wonder if any of it is still there.

[PB+J]

Speaking just for myself I'm SO VERY TIRED of distortion in guitar tones. It's so trite, it's so beeer-commercial fake rebellious; it's corporatized, it comes in a can or a boutique pedal or a boutique amp in some middle aged geezer's basement. I know, I'm a middle-aged geezer and I've played countless gigs with guys playing blues. Guitar based blues--kill it now, before it reproduces again!

I love a clean tone--no fake-outlaw hoeey, no hiding behind stomp boxes

[Lucidology]

I love a clean tone--no fake-outlaw hoeey, no hiding behind stomp boxes

Ah .. but one's idea of clean is often another's idea of an overdriven tone ...

"Clean" is a relative statement when it comes to guitar tone ...

Often misused & misconstrued ...

[Bassomatic]

Speaking just for myself I'm SO VERY TIRED of distortion in guitar tones. It's so trite, it's so beeer-commercial fake rebellious; it's corporatized, it comes in a can or a boutique pedal or a boutique amp in some middle aged geezer's basement. I know, I'm a middle-aged geezer and I've played countless gigs with guys playing blues. Guitar based blues--kill it now, before it reproduces again!

I love a clean tone--no fake-outlaw hoeey, no hiding behind stomp boxes

A very non-linear response to the very notion of non-linear responses (distortions).

You seem to read an awful lot into what is an essentially aural physical phenomenon.

Is every player that employs non-"clean" timbres engaged in "fake-outlaw hooey"? What does, say, Splatt or Holdsworth have to do with Gary Rossington?

[WeAreOurGear]

ive never heard Holdsworth clean, and always wondered if he would be as genius sounding clean. Id have to say his overdriven sounds have always been the most perfect fusion tone ive ever heard and always use him as a template for my tone, although i realize much of it is based on his world class technigue and huge hands and ground breaking legato and piano-istic chord tecnigues im sure could play clean, hes just known for that tone.

Holdsworth is a jazz guitar scholar and you can bet he can play clean!

BTW I think the overdriven trend started by jazz musicians wanting to play LOUD like rock musicians and rock musicians wanting to play jazz! Tony Williams brought Mclaughlin over here and Miles hired him which had a lot to do with signaling that integrating the rock aesthetic was the future. Remember Miles also wanted to use the Fender Rhodes piano as well! Go John Go!:AOK

[Bassomatic]

"Clean" is a relative statement when it comes to guitar tone ...

Often misused & misconstrued ...

Indeed - there's nothing "clean" about the way a classic magnetic pickup filters, limits, and otherwise mangles the purity and harmonic richness of a vibrating guitar string. Which is a great thing, in my little corner.

[Tag]

Speaking just for myself I'm SO VERY TIRED of distortion in guitar tones. It's so trite, it's so beeer-commercial fake rebellious; it's corporatized, it comes in a can or a boutique pedal or a boutique amp in some middle aged geezer's basement. I know, I'm a middle-aged geezer and I've played countless gigs with guys playing blues. Guitar based blues--kill it now, before it reproduces again!

I love a clean tone--no fake-outlaw hoeey, no hiding behind stomp boxes


:dude

[Tag]

What does, say, Splatt or Holdsworth have to do with Gary Rossington?


Distorted tones. :dude

[Tag]

Holdsworth is a jazz guitar scholar and you can bet he can play clean!




Seems someone has not heard Holdswoth try and play jazz. :dude

[Bassomatic]

Distorted tones. :dude

Shows how useless the term is in any meaningful discussion of music.:RoCkIn

[PB+J]

I like Scofield, I like Frisell--both of them kind of have a distorted tone. Neither of them is a trite player. But with both of them, I wish they'd turn the crap boxes off and play.

I suppose you could call me either conservative or a purist. But Coltrane managed to play great music with no distortion; Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett--they sounded cool on electric piano but they all went back to acoustic piano because there was less in the way. Wayne Shorter was consistently inventive, fresh, and original: though he only messed around with electric saxes for a short time, it didn't hinder his originality to play a simple saxophone--he's nearly 80 and still playing great. Joe Zawinul--great innovator with electric keys, but the only tune of his that ever gets called is "Mercy Mercy Mercy," all acoustic. Maybe "in a silent way." "Jazz" as a genre is "about" different things than blues or rock are about.

But that's just my opinion. The idea, though, that a distorted tone represents some kind of bold avant garde breakthru is just silly. A distorted guitar tone is used to signal "extreme" in a phony way in soda commercials, Disney cartoons, in Dad bands, and at corporate-sponsored outdoor "rock" concerts. It's trite in the extreme. It's less trite, and more demanding, to try to make guitar music without distortion

[KRosser]

if you think Charlie Christian played overdrive?. Maybe his amp or what ever was breaking up competing with the volume of a big band but CC was a clean player

No way. There was amp breakup on every CC recording I've heard, and if you don't think that was a HUGE part of what enabled his incredibly distinctive voice you're mistaken.

[Lucidology]

Hey wait a minute...
Does an audience of non-musicians make such a discernement ...!!
Do they become bothered if a jazz guitarist chooses to use distortion...

Naw ... http://forum.thestompbox.net/images/smilies/aaano.gif

[ToneGurus]

Too many jazz guitar players are using solid body guitars. And trying to sound like a piano.

Too many jazz guitar players use round wound strings.

Too many jazz guitar players don't use their thumb to pick single note lines and octaves.

Too many jazz guitar players play (and pee) standing up.

Mike

[KRosser]

Too many jazz guitar players are using solid body guitars. And trying to sound like a piano.

Too many jazz guitar players use round wound strings.

Too many jazz guitar players don't use their thumb to pick single note lines and octaves.

Too many jazz guitar players play (and pee) standing up.

Mike

Too many jazz guitar players, period.

[dkaplowitz]

ive never heard Holdsworth clean, and always wondered if he would be as genius sounding clean.
So, you just choose to ignore all those lush, beautiful, rich, deep harmonies (comping, chord solos, and chord melodies) he plays when he's not soloing with his lead sound? Holdsworth almost sounds MORE genius clean than he does dirty, though I think it's all part of one great package. Who really gives one shit if he chooses to never play a single clean solo again? I don't mean that as a put down, I just state it like that for emphasis. Who really gives a shit? Is his contribution any less? If it is, to you, it's just a testament to your own silliness, not a smudge on Holdsworth's legacy.

BTW, check out some of his early work with Velvet Darkness (and as a sideman for another act that I can't seem to remember now) where he's quite deftly playing an acoustic guitar.

[jimfog]

It's less trite, and more demanding, to try to make guitar music without distortion

I actually find it the LEAST trite and MOST demanding to make guitar music without a damned guitar.

Those hacks who are trying to be "modern" and "avant garde" are just using strings and wood and metal to cover up their deficiencies as players, if you ask me.

Don't even get me started on those wankers who resort to "changes".......

[Bryan T]

This thread is ridiculous.

Bryan

[PB+J]

what's ridiculous is chiming in on a thread you have no interest in.

[Bryan T]

what's ridiculous is chiming in on a thread you have no interest in.

I'm definitely interested in it. I just find discussions of 'what jazz is,' 'what jazz guitar is,' 'who is a jazz player,' etc., to be ridiculous. I thought the original questions were interesting, particularly 'where did distorted jazz guitar begin?'

Imitating a horn with a guitar is an interesting thing to try to do. A lot of the early higher gain amplifiers and pedals were trying to do exactly that.

Bryan

[bigroy]

:munch

[archtop]

When I use distortion, I'm trying to sound like a distorted guitar... not a horn. It seems sometimes that jazz guitarists feel like second class citizens in the world of Jazz. I don't understand the sentiment of guitar players wanting to sound like horns. If you want to sound like a sax, learn to play sax. A guitar, clean or dirty, is equally cool in it's own right... doing it's own thing... that only a guitar can do.

[PB+J]

Charlie Christian is significant, IMHO, not because he was the first to play a lead role but because he was the first to brig the electric guitar to a wide audience. Besides the fact that he was an amazing player

Eddie Lang--I listened to a lot of Eddie Lang. The guy started recording in the late 20s, and he was on virtually EVERYTHING recorded from around 27-32. then he died in a botched throat operation, just before guitars got amped. Guy played lead all the time; he was featured on many records and had an instructional book.


CC did have a great tone, and sometimes it sounds like he's pushing that amp pretty hard. Not quite distortion n the way most people mean it, but definitely a thick kind of on the edge sound

[kingsleyd]

It's less trite, and more demanding, to try to make guitar music without distortion

That's a crock of horse-poop. The triteness, or lack thereof, of any musical endeavour involving electric guitar has nothing whatsover to the presence or lack of distortion.

As to what sort of playing is "more demanding," it mystifies me why some people around here are so obsessed with looking at music from that perspective. Especially since those who are this way so often have an incredibly narrow view of what's demanding and what's not. Getting and consistently managing a good, expressive distorted guitar tone is a hell of a lot of work. But ultimately demanding/not demanding doesn't matter to the vast majority of listeners. Music either gets across or it doesn't, and for most people the primary issue is one of emotional connection.

As for Mr. Holdsworth, fwiw, he has spent most of his life working quite hard at NOT playing recycled jazz licks, that silly record on which he played a bunch of standards notwithstanding, so to argue about whether or not he can "play jazz" kinda misses the boat.

[slopeshoulder]

I rememeber back in '79, Sco came to my school (NEC) for a master class and gig. At the end of the week, the best player in the school, a guy WAY into Joe Pass and Wes, said "I'm sick of sounding like vibes. Sco sounds like a tenor!" And I said, "I love the sound of an L-5 with heavy strings though a clean Twin, played with a heavy pick, but how can we stay relevant if our tone ignores all that's going on in music around us?" We both bought 335's and Boogies. But since then, i've watched trad jazz guitarists follow classical players into a ghetto of their own creation.
I STILL love and use that old clean tone as one in a pallet of tone, but OD is life baby! History is...history.

[PB+J]

i'll ignore that wee bit of condescension, for the moment;
but, really, man --- that's as false as it is rude.

dt / spltrcl

gotta read the whole thread, friend--it's a response to earlier claims that guys who played with a distorted tone are more adventurous.

It's not "false"--it's genuinely my opinion. You're clearly not persuaded, but that's why discussion is fun.

I'm just tired, tired, of distorted tones--they remind me of beer commercials and corporatized rock and SRVaughnabe's and expensive boutique pedals for middle aged geeezers like myself. Obviously it's nothing more than a taste thing, but to me it's a great pleasure to go "guitar-cord-amp." I grew up on distorted guitar--it was absolutely unbiquitous. It still is. The sound of an undistorted guitar is refreshing to my ears, but obviously not to everyone's

[Leucadian]

...distortion is truth...Big Muff...Rat...Tube Screamer...Hot Cake...Klon...Eternity...these are a few of my favorite things...:cool:

[kingsleyd]

it's a response to earlier claims that guys who played with a distorted tone are more adventurous.

I read the whole thread. I didn't see where anyone made that claim.

[Tag]

It's less trite, and more demanding, to try to make guitar music without distortion

:BEER Agree.

[jgyn]

I get a constant rush out of playing 'Freedom Jazz Dance' with my Les Paul Deluxe lightly overdriving my Marshall JTM45.

[kingsleyd]

It's not "false"--it's genuinely my opinion.

Splatt's right. As a statement, it's false. (or "a crock of horse poop" if one prefers) Of course you're entitled to hold any opinion you wish.

[Bryan T]

.this is a discussion panel, if you cant take the heat, stay out of the Kitchen lol.

:)

[PB+J]

Splatt's right. As a statement, it's false. (or "a crock of horse poop" if one prefers) Of course you're entitled to hold any opinion you wish.

I don't need a grant of entitlement to hold any opinion I want--as a conscious being, I can't not have opinions. You can deny my right to express them, but I'll have them nevertheless

An opinion can't be false--the conclusions it expresses can be false, or based on incorrect or false assumptions, but an opinion is an opinion--it can't be true or false.

So is the conclusion "false"? Only in your opinion, and you haven't persuaded me I'm wrong. Calling my opinion "horse poop" ain't going to do it.

My argument is that distorted electric tones are far more common--far, far more common--in commercial recorded music than clean tones. That, I feel confident, is a fact. Now, does that make distorted guitar trite? Well, a form or piece of art becomes "trite" when it loses its force because it's used too often--becomes commonplace, a cliche. Freebird might have been a good song at one point, now it's so trite that people yell it as a joke.

In that sense, it seems to me, distorted guitar tones have become trite.

So, agree or disagree--but at least mount an argument!

[rwe333]

how about when he was sitting at home on his couch practicing his concept of solo/ing?, His amp broke up because it was old vintage technology, not because he was purposly trying to sound like he was playing a overdriven amp. That sound was just the end result of pushing a tube to compete with the volume of a live rhythm and horn section.

...and the seminal recordings of Charlie feature those pushed tones, that's the point. Part/parcel of his influential vibe/voice, intentional or not.

[Leucadian]

...I predict Tag and jazzguitarplay will become bestest friends.:eek:
...very good!

[rongtr]

But when Charlie played, it was the combination of the lines he was playing and the overdriven tone that led people to believe they were hearing a tenor sax instead of a guitar.

[PB+J]

s

and then --- as i said --- there's all that
endlessly, painfully polite archtop-jazz tone
jamming the Weather Channel audio-segments,
shite porn flix,
wheezy & queasy Holiday Inn lounge-gigs (yes, i'm sorry to say that i've played plenty, thanks very much) &
100's of clearly pointless Hollywood "feel good"-films.....l

i know exactly what you mean, banality has many forms. I like politeness in a musician, though--being able to hear and listen and wait your turn instead of stomping on the pedal and silencing conversation. I'm mostly a bass player, which maybe explains part of my argument...



i like it, too, and use it pretty often..... but not at the cost
of beautiful, harmonically rich distortions,
heavenly feedbacks & noise-of-all-sorts:
use what ya need, and please don't begrudge others their own needs..... whatever it takes.

dt / spltrcl

Yeah I like it too, but my argument --and thanks for your disagreement--is that distorted tones are far more common, and that they've become more trite because of their ubiquity. But then, you and I move in different musical worlds and I suspect you bump into a different set of annoyances than I do. I'm just a local gigger; I teach history for a living and have watched the process wherebye what was once "transgressive" and dangerous becomes Freebird over and over.

[rwe333]

im just trying to find out the connection between how everybody started using distortion when there playing Bop licks these days?. Thats all. Im not questioning Weither some body can play clean or not, ok?. I never said Holdsworth couldent play clean. Every time I go to a session or hear, especially young jazzers, but not all, there playing thru a tube screamer or something to over drive there guitars. I kinda like it, but miss the days when the emphisis was more on over all concept and technique, then trying to sound like some other instrument. The guitar is the guiutar, it will never be or sound like a woodwind or brass instrument. I like variety, I love od and clean sounds. Id like to hear Holdworth play a clean solo, cause every one of his solos sound pretty much exactly the same. Honestly, I listen to holdsworth for 2 or 3 songs and Im done, my mind becomes saturated with the same chimy clean contrapuntal lines and pianistic chords and then here comes Johnny, its the same seemless, violin, od tone. I wish I could play half as good as him but it gets predictable after a while, just my opinion. Holdsworth would probably agree with me on it too, in interviews, he always talks down what he creates and almost sounds insecure

Try learning some of the lines and/or chord voicings - not exactly predictable.. Little repetition and/or set patterns/licks. Very unique.
Lots of clean (and acoustic) solos in the AH discography - ya really wanna hear 'em, they're easy to find.
As for the last comment, Holdsworth is notoriously self-effacing - it's part of why he's so proficient, as he's always improving.
And, ya know, I really don't think of him as a 'jazz' player, nor do I consider him a 'rock' or 'fusion' player - he's had a pretty singular voice/vision over 3 decades now.
(no fanboy, just respect him)

[rwe333]

I don't need a grant of entitlement to hold any opinion I want--as a conscious being, I can't not have opinions. You can deny my right to express them, but I'll have them nevertheless

An opinion can't be false--the conclusions it expresses can be false, or based on incorrect or false assumptions, but an opinion is an opinion--it can't be true or false.

So is the conclusion "false"? Only in your opinion, and you haven't persuaded me I'm wrong. Calling my opinion "horse poop" ain't going to do it.

My argument is that distorted electric tones are far more common--far, far more common--in commercial recorded music than clean tones. That, I feel confident, is a fact. Now, does that make distorted guitar trite? Well, a form or piece of art becomes "trite" when it loses its force because it's used too often--becomes commonplace, a cliche. Freebird might have been a good song at one point, now it's so trite that people yell it as a joke.

In that sense, it seems to me, distorted guitar tones have become trite.

So, agree or disagree--but at least mount an argument!

There's an enormous number of guitar timbres/textures available - clean, dirty and all points in between. Up to the imagination of the player. Perhaps there are tones some of us are over-exposed to, but it's way too simple to say something like distorted (or clean) guitars are cliched.
BIG range to exploit, well beyond Freebird.

[cyb3rvampire]

im just trying to find out the connection between how everybody started using distortion when there playing Bop licks these days?. Thats all. Im not questioning Weither some body can play clean or not, ok?. I never said Holdsworth couldent play clean. Every time I go to a session or hear, especially young jazzers, but not all, there playing thru a tube screamer or something to over drive there guitars. I kinda like it, but miss the days when the emphisis was more on over all concept and technique, then trying to sound like some other instrument. The guitar is the guiutar, it will never be or sound like a woodwind or brass instrument. I like variety, I love od and clean sounds. Id like to hear Holdworth play a clean solo, cause every one of his solos sound pretty much exactly the same. Honestly, I listen to holdsworth for 2 or 3 songs and Im done, my mind becomes saturated with the same chimy clean contrapuntal lines and pianistic chords and then here comes Johnny, its the same seemless, violin, od tone. I wish I could play half as good as him but it gets predictable after a while, just my opinion. Holdsworth would probably agree with me on it too, in interviews, he always talks down what he creates and almost sounds insecure

Jazz,

Who is everyone?

I'm in a music school and go to student jam sessions all the time at local clubs and I've never scene a tubescreamer or rat hanging out. Last time I saw Pat Martino, he was playing clean. Same with benson. Same with Stryker. Same with a lot of the local guys from LA.

Yeah,
Scofield, Stern, and Henderson use distortion, but seriously, is that everyone to your ears? Sorry, I'm just having a hard time getting what you mean by "everyone."

And for the folks who think using distortion is for sloppy players, seriously, grow up guys.

[rwe333]

we may or may not agree, but the one thing we all mostly agree and share on is the love of music, guitar, and the persuit of learning and opening our artistic and musical horizons. Now, with violins playing in the backround and a tear in my eye. Il say Good Night one and all, your all my friends.

Curious - and not by any means meant in a 'show me your resume' way:
Have you been gigging and/or studying jazz guitar for some time?
Just helps to give your replies some context (no links in your sig).

[cyb3rvampire]

Al though hes one of the best guitar players out there, his use of effects and sometimes over use of the whammy bar drives me crazy. Ive heard him play totally clean and hes just as great but sometimes makes his guitar sound drunk with his combination of rock and jazz techniques, which 99% of the time I love listening too. I bet he loves Kenny G too. I also know Scott has always been considered a Jazz rock cat , not a straight ahead player, al though he can burn on straight ahead, but again, when I think of SH , i like to look at him as overall monster. But please Scott, stop jerking that dam whammy bar all over the place

BTW, Jazz

You should come check him out at the spud or La Ve Lee's. I think if your thinking the whole time "stop using the whammy" your REALLY missing a point. FWIW.

[aram]

if you play clean and you suck, you still suck.

if you play distorted and you suck, you still suck.

Likewise, if you aren't able to listen to the talents and gifts of a guitarist simply because they use or don't use distortion, you're missing out, and quite probably suck!

Either way, I get so frustrated with a lot of straight ahead jazz players these days.

I love listening to old stuff- CC, and Jim Hall, and Wes and my favorite- Atila Zoler.

But so many guys today aren't pushing the limits. The reason why the old stuff was so great, is because they were always pushing through, trying to play something new. You can hear that in the music.

You go to some of the sessions in New York and guys think they're so great because they're playing Donna Lee at a rip roaring speed- SO WHAT!

They're not saying anything new. If I want to hear that stuff, I'll listen to Bird!

When I hear someone today, I want to hear 2007, not 1945!

Of course, playing with distortion or not has nothing to do with this.

But I think that the guys who are really playing in the spirit of the first jazzers are those whose music least resembles that jazz.

If you're still stuck in a mindset of "clean=good, distorted=bad" you're way off the mark, and probably have no clue what jazz is about.

[Tag]

...I predict Tag and jazzguitarplay will become bestest friends.:eek:
...very good!


Hey, I like everyone on here, regardless of their opinion. :) I enjoy all the contrasting views, thats what makes it interesting.

[OOG]

because some of you puppies
haven't heard Alan Holdsworth or Bill Frisell
play acoustic
it means they can't?

don't lay your limited experience on others

now run along and try to be somebody
maybe even yourself
<hint>
you wont get there by criticizing
unless where you want to be is a critic

[aram]

because some of you puppies
haven't heard Alan Holdsworth or Bill Frisell
play acoustic
it means they can't?

don't lay your limited experience on others

now run along and try to be somebody
maybe even yourself
<hint>
you wont get there by criticizing
unless where you want to be is a critic

Very good point.

One of my favorite shows of all time was when I was living in Martha's Vineyard one summer.

Bill Frissell played and acoustic solo concert and then duets with Brad Mehldau.

It was sublime.

[KRosser]

so your saying he couldent play those lines clean?

Misspellings aside, that's just ridiculous. I didn't say he couldn't play the lines clean. Not even close. Where did you get that from?

I said he used the distortion that was clearly present as an intergral part of his voice.

Jeez, man, get a clue.

how about when he was sitting at home on his couch practicing his concept of solo/ing?,

Yeah, OK...tell me all about Charlie Christian sitting at home on his couch practicing. I think perhaps it was actually a love seat.

You're a piece of work, dude...

His amp broke up because it was old vintage technology, not because he was purposly trying to sound like he was playing a overdriven amp. That sound was just the end result of pushing a tube to compete with the volume of a live rhythm and horn section.

OK, well that's how and why he got the distortion.

Now the next part is to picture what I was saying - that the distortion he got facilitated a certain kind of articulation, sustain and dynamics that did not exist before in jazz guitar and would not have existed without it. Instead of shying away from this unfamiliar sound, he went with it and used it to his advantage. Same thing Link Wray did with "Rumble". Same thing Hendrix did with feedback.

And we know this 'cause it's all over the frickin' records.

Capiche?

Now, are you ready for the part where I tell you he - *gasp* - bent strings?

[WeAreOurGear]

I get a constant rush out of playing 'Freedom Jazz Dance' with my Les Paul Deluxe lightly overdriving my Marshall JTM45.

I love that tune, but you can tell from the intervals it was not written by a guitar player!:crazyguy

[WeAreOurGear]

im just trying to find out the connection between how everybody started using distortion when there playing Bop licks these days?. Thats all. Im not questioning Weither some body can play clean or not, ok?. I never said Holdsworth couldent play clean. Every time I go to a session or hear, especially young jazzers, but not all, there playing thru a tube screamer or something to over drive there guitars. I kinda like it, but miss the days when the emphisis was more on over all concept and technique, then trying to sound like some other instrument. The guitar is the guiutar, it will never be or sound like a woodwind or brass instrument. I like variety, I love od and clean sounds. Id like to hear Holdworth play a clean solo, cause every one of his solos sound pretty much exactly the same. Honestly, I listen to holdsworth for 2 or 3 songs and Im done, my mind becomes saturated with the same chimy clean contrapuntal lines and pianistic chords and then here comes Johnny, its the same seemless, violin, od tone. I wish I could play half as good as him but it gets predictable after a while, just my opinion. Holdsworth would probably agree with me on it too, in interviews, he always talks down what he creates and almost sounds insecure

What I like about saturated tones is that it mimics the human voice. Much like a horn player in fact. With saturated tones and sustain you can make the guitar moan, cry and sing! I listen to Hendrix making the guitar cry, Holdsworth making sheets of sound, Metheny lyrical flights of fancy. Its all good. BTW I love bop with OD! :o

[cyb3rvampire]

jazz, did you see my post? Im honestly curious. It be cool for you to respond.

Trying hard to see where your coming from

Thanks man.

[jazzguitarplay]

because some of you puppies
haven't heard Alan Holdsworth or Bill Frisell
play acoustic
it means they can't?

don't lay your limited experience on others

now run along and try to be somebody
maybe even yourself
<hint>
you wont get there by criticizing
unless where you want to be is a critic

USA where its all going down. I grew up in the New York city area and sat less then two feet away from Bill Friesell, Alan Holdworth, Danny Gatton, Lenny Breau, Joe Pass, Mike Stern, Chuck Loeb, John Scofield, Les Paul, Tal Farlow, Pat Martino, Bill Conners, Larry Coryell, Mick Goodrick, Harry Leahy, Josh Breakstone, Jeff Beck and Stevie Ray Vaughn . I have every right to have an opinion, Im not being Critical, Im just voicing my opinion. Im very open minded to being critized, as long its hopefully in a positive way. I just recently toured in Malaysia, Singapore, and Hong Kong. One of the most beauitull places on Earth, and the people are some of the most kind, considerate people anywhere.Im so sorry your taking this as negitive, its truly not my intent.

[cyb3rvampire]

jazz, did you see my post? Im honestly curious. It be cool for you to respond.

Trying hard to see where your coming from

Thanks man.

...

[OOG]

uhhh
gee
i know that So Cal, where i was born and have lived for almost 60 years
is kinda' considered to be a bit removed from reality by some
but i didn't know that we had seceded from the union
damn
learn something every day

[jazzguitarplay]

jazz, did you see my post? Im honestly curious. It be cool for you to respond.

Trying hard to see where your coming from

Thanks man.

I guess Im basing that on the last few jam sessions ive witnessed or have been part of. Sorry I wasent more specific about that. It just seemed like the main guy running the jam started it that way, doing all his solos with o/d, then all the other guitar players sitting in was doing there soloing with o/d. Its totally cool. It was just an observation I made, nothing more. I started to notice that since they were all compelled to fuzz out , it seemed to sound like a bunch of horn players but on guitar. Please dont get me wrong, thats totally cool too. But some thing seemed to be lacking in my concept of playing complete jazz guitar which also includes things like octaves, chord soling, contrapuntal interval movement. Maybe its just a trend. Maybe its just those guys I herd that night, it doesent really matter. Then one time, I sat in, and played clean but kinda got pissed cause nobody was really listening for dynamics and volume variations, it was just lould to very lould so unless i turned on the o/d, i was totally buried by the other rhythm instruments, sorry for making generalizations, that wasent my intent. I was just trying to find where that connection was made. Of jazz oriented players and when they historically started playing with gain or o/d?. This this thread, Ive learned it goes back to Charlie Christan, weither it was intentional or not. Thanks

[cyb3rvampire]

cool, thanks.

[jazzguitarplay]

http://kathyandpaul.com/audio/classical.mp3 heres a little clean ditty---no amp breakup---Your welcome cyb3

[jzucker]

When jazz can be defined by a bunch of white guys on a chat forum, it's officially dead! ;)

[Tag]

http://kathyandpaul.com/audio/classical.mp3 heres a little clean ditty---no amp breakup---Your welcome cyb3


I heard a little digital clipping in that clip, but you used it to YOUR advantage and went with it. That means you are really a distortion player like Charlie Christian.;)

[Doug H]

Wayne Shorter was consistently inventive, fresh, and original: though he only messed around with electric saxes for a short time, it didn't hinder his originality to play a simple saxophone--he's nearly 80 and still playing great.

Yeah, but that acoustic saxophone still produces those hideous square waves. If he was a "real" musician he'd play the flute, or maybe the piano... :rolleyes:

[aram]

http://kathyandpaul.com/audio/classical.mp3 heres a little clean ditty---no amp breakup---Your welcome cyb3

Why'd you have to do that?

Now some guy is going to start a thread about how bad it is to use amps with classical guitars and pieces.

You're a rabble rouser!

:rotflmao

[dkaplowitz]

I wish I could play half as good as him but it gets predictable after a while, just my opinion. Holdsworth would probably agree with me on it too, in interviews, he always talks down what he creates and almost sounds insecure
Wow, you can predict it huh? You must have some pretty perspicacious ears.

As to his being self-effacing, I think most people agree that he's dead wrong when he puts himself down as he does. It's just his style -- he doesn't make himself out to be one of those "mop the floor with you" type guitar players. He's still one bad dude, regardless of what he's said in interviews.

[dkaplowitz]

When jazz can be defined by a bunch of white guys on a chat forum, it's officially dead! ;)
:rotflmao

[dkaplowitz]

You go to some of the sessions in New York and guys think they're so great because they're playing Donna Lee at a rip roaring speed- SO WHAT!
So which is it they're playing at rip-roaring speeds, Donna Lee or So What?

;) J/k I really liked your comments.

[PB+J]

For me, this is all about preference, not ironclad rules. It's not like I refuse to listen to some guy just becaue he has a distorted tone. I just find that I prefer an undistorted tone. Is that ok?

People always insist that music has to "progress." Progress towards what? A state of perfection, where progress is no longer possible?

It seems ridiculous to me that music has to "progress," as if it's got some place it's got to get to and the sooner it gets there, the better! You guys who get irritated when someone tries to define a genre, tell me where music is progressing towards, will ya?

The demand for novelty in music is exactly the same as the demand for novelty in the toy marketplace, or the need for a new model car every year, or the fashion industry, or the NAMM show. It's just consumerism. Novelty is over-rated

That being said, it gets tiresome to hear the same thing all the time--which to me, is why I like jazz that's on the undistorted side

Guys who seem to think that a distorted guitar tone represents progress and the shock of the new--you must be kidding. I mean, distorted electric guitar tones started appearing on records about 50 years ago. By the 1960s, they were ubiquitous in commercial music. By 1990 (almost 20 years ago), every Disney video, every video game, every commercial, every summer blockbuster, had a distorted guitar soundtrack. Talk about history! By all means, play whatever you like, but geez--stop patting yourselves on the back for being new and different!

I'm 48, I grew up on radio rock, "classic rock" (ugh!) punk and new wave--in my life, to my ears, it's refreshing to hear an electric guitar without distortion. It's different -sounding.

[dkaplowitz]

People always insist that music has to "progress." Progress towards what? A state of perfection, where progress is no longer possible?

It seems ridiculous to me that music has to "progress," as if it's got some place it's got to get to and the sooner it gets there, the better! You guys who get irritated when someone tries to define a genre, tell me where music is progressing towards, will ya?

The demand for novelty in music is exactly the same as the demand for novelty in the toy marketplace, or the need for a new model car every year, or the fashion industry, or the NAMM show. It's just consumerism. Novelty is over-rated

That being said, it gets tiresome to hear the same thing all the time--which to me, is why I like jazz that's on the undistorted side

Guys who seem to think that a distorted guitar tone represents progress and the shock of the new--you must be kidding. I mean, distorted electric guitar tones started appearing on records about 50 years ago. By the 1960s, they were ubiquitous in commercial music. By 1990 (almost 20 years ago), every Disney video, every video game, every commercial, every summer blockbuster, had a distorted guitar soundtrack. Talk about history! By all means, play whatever you like, but geez--stop patting yourselves on the back for being new and different!

I'm 48, I grew up on radio rock, "classic rock" (ugh!) punk and new wave--in my life, to my ears, it's refreshing to hear an electric guitar without distortion. It's different -sounding.
Yeah, evolution sucks, expansiveness sucks, accumulated experience sucks. It's just consumerism to demand change. Let's just listen to Greensleeves over and over again, it's really enough.

Things change. The cold war changed music, the 2nd world war changed music, the industrial age changed music, the civil rights movement changed music -- music evolved with mankind. It changed to more accurately reflect our moods and what was on our minds (or to help us take our minds off what was going on). I think it's the great thing about music, that it evolves and that it expands to fulfill so many needs/moods. I certainly wouldn't be afraid of it. Although I feel the same way now that you do about the "classic rock" I grew up listening to, once in a while it's totally okay for me to listen to it and get a kick out of it. It doesn't hurt or cause a conflict with all the evolution my ears and tastes have gone through in the last 30 years.

[jzucker]

People always insist that music has to "progress." Progress towards what? A state of perfection, where progress is no longer possible?

The beauty of jazz is its evolution. To ignore that is to ignore the spirit of the music. If it did not evolve it would be classical music. And ask anyone who plays in a major orchestra how tired they are of playing the same works over and over...

[vhollund]

I do not really dig trad jazz anymore since a long time
Alot of it is boring and sound alike
Jazz moved on since Charlie Parker and mixed with all the other traditions and styles
Unfortunatly Beebob and real book is still standart even though theres alot more interesting things going on now
Im a Dirty Clean sound player

[PB+J]

It's ind of annoying to have to argue against points I didn't make!

Where did I ever argue against change? I just argued against the insistence that music must change and the idea that change represents progres. I like change, which is why--how many times do I have to say this--the sound of an undistorted electric guitar sounds like change to me, as explained above, and one reason why I like it.

Of course music changes. I'm all for change. My argument is an argument against triteness masquerading as novelty and progress.

And of course it's all about my personal blah blah blah--what else would my opinion be about but that? How else could I understand music except through the filter of my personal experience?

Splatt wrote: " i'll simply hope that you continue (or begin) to make some music of value,and offer it to the public-at-large in the big, wide world for its spiritual, emotional & cultural edification."


I'm on it!

[Tag]

People always insist that music has to "progress." Progress towards what?



I hear it as though once distortion and the fusion thing started in "jazz" that the music regressed. It started going backwards. Come on, Mclaughlin moving jazz ahead??? YEA OK!!!!!!! :rolleyes: (Listen to Lagrene rip him a new a$$hole on the basic "All blues" for example. ) The guys who avoided that trap went on to be the best players for sure. Then you had the spinoffs, and thats the road that led to Stern, Abercrombie, Metheny etc. Now these guys are without a doubt the best of that genre, but not in the same league as the guys who stuck to playing real jazz.

Agree also that distorted guitar tones are totally cliche and bland now. When I hear them, for the most part I want to throw up. Instantly I think the guy is not a great player, and needs it to help him along, or to make more "sound effects" instead of music. Yea, I can dig that at times too, and there is room for it. But there is also a time to turn that $hit off and show you can REALLY play.

[jzucker]

Of course music changes. I'm all for change. My argument is an argument against triteness masquerading as novelty and progress.

That's a self-fulfilling prophesy though. It's very obvious when someone does that. Witness the CD Joe Pass plays the music of the Rolling Stones. On it, Joe uses Wah, distortion and other effects. (apparently, he couldn't work the wah so someone moved it up and down while he played bop licks)

On the other hand, check out Tony Grey's "Moving" CD. He's a "jazz" bassist but uses distortion, wah and other effects to great creative effect. It's obvious that he is creating music and the effects are used for texture. My problem isn't with playing clean or playing dirty. My problem is equating one or the other with creativity. A creative musician makes music, regardless of what tone or what effects are used.

Frankly, I'm more interested in the quality of the music and less interested in whether they are using distortion or not.

As I often say, People say they know what they like but they really like what they know.

[KRosser]

Come on, Mclaughlin moving jazz ahead???

Perhaps you're not old enough, or aware enough, or whatever -

But man - it happened. I was there. He changed the whole ballgame.

[jzucker]

I hear it as though once distortion and the fusion thing started in "jazz" that the music regressed.

These kinds of blanket generalizations are about as relavent as the folks who call into sports radio or insisting that the players don't know as much about basketball as they do.

[KRosser]

I heard a little digital clipping in that clip, but you used it to YOUR advantage and went with it. That means you are really a distortion player like Charlie Christian.;)

Check your speakers. I didn't get any digital clipping over here.

[Strung Up]

Life is short (but apparently not too short for me to post here); what tone expresses what you feel/think/believe in what harmonic, timbral and rhythmic climate that does the same?

[aram]

Agree also that distorted guitar tones are totally cliche and bland now. When I hear them, for the most part I want to throw up. Instantly I think the guy is not a great player, and needs it to help him along, or to make more "sound effects" instead of music. Yea, I can dig that at times too, and there is room for it. But there is also a time to turn that $hit off and show you can REALLY play.

hate to have to say this, but after listening to some of your stuff my first thought was,

"who does this guy think he is, telling other people that their music is cliche?'

[PB+J]

It's been interesting and fun--I'm about to leave on a four day family camping trip, so I'm out of this.

Bringing a Saga Gitane and a fakebook, going to work on reharmonizing some standards. No distortion though

[Leucadian]

:munch
...yea...just who does this "tag" guy think he is? I've had that thought as long as I've been a member here.:rotflmao

...get used to it...learn to embrace it...but don't try and rationalize it.:D

[DøøG]

Hey fellas, I don't know about you, but sometimes playing clean OR clean-ER can be easier than playing with od. Trying to get clarity out of od (more than one string soloing) can be tricky. Wide spaced intervals helps. Most of the Jazz dudes are playing with that "blanket over the speaker" tone and the amp is compressing. I'd say it's easier playing in that style with that tone! Give that guy a "distorting" Tele and a twin, I betcha he'd have a hard time. Playing acoustic is a tougher bet, unless running electric with a compressor.

I dunno guys, good and bad in everything............

[Tag]

These kinds of blanket generalizations are about as relavent as the folks who call into sports radio or insisting that the players don't know as much about basketball as they do.


They DONT!! :dude

[parker]

you clearly don't know tag, so:
he's marked himself to become
the BEST jazz guitarist EVER..... some day,
when the first Jazz Olympics are held.
of course, he'll keep that award forever,
but 4 yrs later, it'll go to someone else.....
all things must pass.
of course,
some of those things might simply pass gas. (or, ¿¿¿ G.A.S. ???)

dt / spltrcl

Hahaha !

[KRosser]

you clearly don't know tag, so:
he's marked himself to become
the BEST jazz guitarist EVER..... some day,
when the first Jazz Olympics are held.


It's very easy to be the BEST when you're the only one who knows the rules.

Of course, that might mean you have a hard time playing with others...

...oops...did I just come full-circle?

[Tag]

Perhaps you're not old enough, or aware enough, or whatever -

But man - it happened. I was there. He changed the whole ballgame.

Ken, I am 48.

He changed the whole ballgame huh? Here is proof he changed nothing but added noise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fYbkeUzkxM

Lagrene makes CLEAR, PRECISE music within the jazz realm. I am sure you are familiar with him, and know he is holding back BIG time. Mclauglin plays ZILCH. GOOSE EGG. Is there a SINGLE person here who can really HEAR jazz and think Mclauglin is is playing even DECENTLY? He is playing the same patterns as fast as he can, covering up that he does not have the jazz vocabulary digested. With distortion, Im sure he could even have played faster. Now I LOVE a lot of JMs music, and he is a genius at so much. Resolution (or lack of!) is one of my fave tunes ever! However, jazz he is NOT, and never has been.

[aram]

Ken, I am 48.

He changed the whole ballgame huh? Here is PROOF he changed NOTHING but added noise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fYbkeUzkxM
.


Are there clips of Birelli playing stuff like Shakti, or Bitches Brew, or Mahavishnu?

The guy is a beautiful player, but could he cut it with those bands?

But more importantly, would we even want him too?

Again,

if you can't hear the beauty in what both players were doing in that clip, your missing the point.

[Tag]

tag, dude.
biréli is such a beautiful player.
of course,
i have massive respect for much of the body of JM's music,

I totally agree on both counts.



and
--- not worrying about "progress" or "regress" or any
other clearly academic "perspectives" ---
his musical contributions still mean much to me;



Me as well. While I am not the biggest JM fan, i do love a lot of his stuff, and used to listen to him a lot.



i suspect this may be true of quite a few musicians,
including biréli.
of course, i've never met biréli..... i'm only guessing.

as an aside:
did you ever go to any of shakti's performances,
in their heyday?



No, and from what I have heard, i am sure I would have loved it!





after all these yrs,
your assessments of "better" & "best" still seem ridiculous to me;
maybe even more so now than in the past.
i'm truly sorry about that.



I have no problems with that at all. But you seem to do the same as well many times. You have called traditional jazz "museum jazz", and said a player like Johnny A was nothing more than a collection of old worn out licks, although done well.


wow.
and i thought music was meant to "move" us,
to "enrich" us.


Where have I said otherwise? I agree completely! I even put on some Madonna at times! VERY GOOD!



it's no wonder that you don't play out
or compose and/or record for the public's consumption!


My choice Dave. I did it for quite a while, then I slowly started designing Landscapes. I simply enjoyed that art form as much, and made a lot more money than I did playing guitar. :)


it's gotta be really, really tough on you,
to continue to be saddled with feeling
that music is pointless unless
you win the medal for being "best".

Not at all, and not sure why you think I feel that way. I enjoy all the points of view, and try and show why I feel the way I do. Others seem to get much more bent out of shape than I do. Lol!

dt / spltrcl

VERY GOOD!

[Tag]

Are there clips of Birelli playing stuff like Shakti, or Bitches Brew, or Mahavishnu?

The guy is a beautiful player, but could he cut it with those bands?

But more importantly, would we even want him too?

Again,

if you can't hear the beauty in what both players were doing in that clip, your missing the point.

SURE he could! Throw taste and phrasing to the wind and burn as fast as you can! :p

[aram]

SURE he could! Throw taste and phrasing to the wind and burn as fast as you can! :p

Once again-

based on what I've heard of your playing, you're the last person who should be making judgment calls when it comes to taste and phrasing.

[Tag]

Once again-

based on what I've heard of your playing, you're the last person who should be making judgment calls when it comes to taste and phrasing.

Hmmm...Maybe I should start a fusion band! :D

[rwe333]

Once again-

based on what I've heard of your playing, you're the last person who should be making judgment calls when it comes to taste and phrasing.

I disagree w/ Tag plenty in this thread, but comments like this are not called for...

[rwe333]

Hmmm...Maybe I should start a fusion band! :D

Dude, your playing's way more rock/fusion than you like to admit, yes? ;)
(and - of course - I like your playing)

[Tag]

I disagree w/ Tag plenty in this thread, but comments like this are not called for...

Hey thanks Wayne, but I post my clips, and I have no problems with PPl giving their opinions of them. :) I play for myself, and am always trying to get better. If I could dedicate 100% of my time to it, I would be the BEST of the BEST!! ;)

[Tag]

Dude, your playing's way more rock/fusion than you like to admit, yes? ;)
(and - of course - I like your playing)


Of course! I always admitt I stink at playing real jazz.

[Jerrod]

You guys know you can let Tag "win" and it won't make him "right" or adversely affect the world, right? :)

[Tag]

ha!

dt / spltrcl

MARK IT DOWN!!! I was able to get a real laugh (I think) out of Splatt! :AOK

[Tag]

You guys know you can let Tag "win" and it won't make him "right" or adversely affect the world, right? :)

Thats right! Then some guys will see this and realize they need to dedicate themselves to true jazz. Then they will see how much harder it is! This in turn will make them better players, and the entire musical world will benefit!

:BEER

[Jerrod]

Thats right! Then some guys will see this and realize they need to dedicate themselves to true jazz. Then they will see how much harder it is! This in turn will make them better players, and the entire musical world will benefit!

:BEER

I would probably give up guitar before I adopted the "Tag Rules for Music," but hey, it could happen. :AOK

[rwe333]

Of course! I always admitt I stink at playing real jazz.

But maybe ya have your own thing happening which is perhaps more interesting/unique/personal, huh? 'Real jazz' guitar is - what? - GB or RJ to you? Ya gonna better 'em at their game? Best be yourself...

[aram]

I disagree w/ Tag plenty in this thread, but comments like this are not called for...


I disagree.

He called John Mcglaughlin's playing noise. He's knocked Abercrombie, Metheny, and Stern.

If you're going to say things like that, then you better be able to back it up.

He can't.

That being said, this is just a friendly thread about the pros and cons of clean vs. overdrive, so I'll tone it down.
(:

[aram]

But maybe ya have your own thing happening which is perhaps more interesting/unique/personal, huh? 'Real jazz' guitar is - what? - GB or RJ to you? Ya gonna better 'em at their game? Best be yourself...

yeah man! that's it!

JM is just great at what he does and Birelli is great at what he does, but let's not put one up against the other.

Tag does have some chops. I'd love to hear what he would do if he pulled himself out of an idiom and did his own thing.

[jgyn]

I love that tune, but you can tell from the intervals it was not written by a guitar player!:crazyguy

It still feels awkward to me. I like soloing to it, though- you can do anything- Dolphy like intervallic phrasing, 'Red House' blues licks, Mixolydian- the works!

[aeolian]

All my CD's are packed away at the moment but I think I have one with JM and Joey D where while he still plays those rapid fire two note per string pentatonic/appegio things, it comes off much more melodic and straight aheadish to me. My favorite JM recording. Then there's that Tonight Show clip over the big band where he swings though the changes (I think it's Chereokee or something).

As a rocker who got opened to a larger universe, I can sympathize with some folks who found ratty fuzz tone playing awkward and shyed away from it. And having expanded my musical universe, I can go back and appreciate how other folks heard though what would have constituted horrible rock tone, and heard new frontiers in music being blazed.

What JM is not, is a traditional (meaning the period from the 50's to mid sixties) jazz guitar player. In the sprit if the genre he was and is most definitely a jazz musician. Just as when Django or CC picked up electric guitars. Man, when you listen to how Django's playing changed when he found the added sustain of a pushed small amp compared to his Maccafferi, it's obvious that the great musicians could adapt and evolve along with the tools.

I get from blues purists a lot of the time these lectures about "respect" for the form. To not adultrate it by forcing some other vocabulary or tonality into it. I do not see playing blues or jazz with overdrive "disrespect" unless that is obviously the players intent, to parody the music somehow. When Berrelli straps on the Ibanez and kicks in the overdrive, he is not disrespecting the music, he is employing different tools in his expressionistic endeavor. He might take a Maccaferri and pay homage to his ancestors at times. But when he plays in his own voice he is not disrespecting his ancestors, he is following in their footsteps.

[Leucadian]

I disagree.

He called John Mcglaughlin's playing noise. He's knocked Abercrombie, Metheny, and Stern.

If you're going to say things like that, then you better be able to back it up.

He can't.

That being said, this is just a friendly thread about the pros and cons of clean vs. overdrive, so I'll tone it down.
(:

...Tag recognizes those guys can play...he just won't call them jazz guitarists...his comments about other players aren't meant as put-downs as much as they are designed to push buttons.;) Like I typed previously, don't try and rationalize his opinions...just have fun with it...it's a game called Tag!:rotflmao

[Tag]

I disagree.

He called John Mcglaughlin's playing noise. He's knocked Abercrombie, Metheny, and Stern.

If you're going to say things like that, then you better be able to back it up.

He can't.

That being said, this is just a friendly thread about the pros and cons of clean vs. overdrive, so I'll tone it down.
(:

Two things.
First: I have said those guys are MONSTER players. Some of the best in the world at what they do. If saying they are not the best straight ahead jazz players is a knock on them, so be it. They are not.

Second.
I think my playing is at a level that DOES back up what I say. (And I understand you disagree, and that is fine) Am I as good as those guys? Not even close. Put us all on a tune that I am comfortable with however, and I am confident I will find something to say that is interesting. Seems even JM failed that test on that "All blues" clip.
:moon

[Tag]

...Tag recognizes those guys can play...he just won't call them jazz guitarists...his comments about other players aren't meant as put-downs as much as they are designed to push buttons.;) Like I typed previously, don't try and rationalize his opinions...just have fun with it...it's a game called Tag!:rotflmao

Agree, BUT, I am NOT trying to push buttons. It is exactly how I hear it and what I think.

:)

[Leucadian]

Agree, BUT, I am NOT trying to push buttons. It is exactly how I hear it and what I think.

:)

:BEER

...I would pay money to see the Bireli McTagster Trio with George Benson guesting!

[OOG]

damit Tag
not only do you not get these other guys playing
you don't get your own
you're "better" than you think you are

you need to get with other players
if you can bounce of them
the way you do with other posters
man, you'd be playing some "jazz"

with or without overdrive

[lhallam]

Is there a SINGLE person here who can really HEAR jazz and think Mclauglin is is playing even DECENTLY?


Yeah me.

There is nothing wrong JM's playing on All Blues.

He starts slow, allows plenty of space, adds rhythmic variation, follows the changes, uses repetition, accents the VI chord and I don't think I heard one cliche. He's not blowing through it willy nilly.

I may prefer a little more theme & variation however I've heard plenty of jazz guys play stream of conscience.

Both are obvisouly thrilled to be playing together.

[jimfog]

I am NOT trying to push buttons.

Love you, Tagger.......but this is the first time I have to call BS on you.

You ADORE pushing buttons, brother...........L-U-V it!

Patently clear....

Carry on,

Jim

[Zappatalist]

In my short time on this forum, I think this qualifies the most ridiculous argument I've had the displeasure of reading, or it's at least in the top 5.

Sadly, there have been some old crotchety dudes behind me at Scofield shows having the exact same discussion, with the exact same results.

Carry on, jazz curmudgeons- let your Polytones ring loudly with the chord scales of destiny!

[DøøG]

Idioms suck....there, I said it. In order to play ____, you have to play with ___" F dat! How confining!!! These "