Original Equipment Tubes

[78tsubaki]

I was wondering if anyone else ever noticed how good most amplifiers sound when you use original equipment tubes?

I have tried switching around and I have a pretty nice collection of preamp tubes (not for sale). Today I tubed my Rivera going back to the original equipment Sovteks and I put the original EL34s back in (re-biasing of course). The amp sounds really good.

I did the same thing with my Reinhardt 18 last week and it is back too. I had tried the TAD EL84s and found they sound great when new, but they dont have the tone or last as long as the JJs IMO.

Makes me think that the designers really do know what they are doing for the most part when they voice an amplifier. This is not to say that a strategically placed NOS Mullard in V1 or 2 sounds wrong. (Sounds good too) When the amplifier is designed for current production tubes that is a good thing for us working poor musicians.

One other thing, I have found that tubes in fixed bias amplifiers do drift a little over time. Just touching up the bias can make old tubes sound fresh.

[John Phillips]

I've never found one modern amp that sounds better with its stock tubes compared to old-production. It's nothing to do with the 'voicing' of the amp, it's to do with the tone quality of the tubes.

(IMO)

[phsyconoodler]

I am thinking the two examples you have stated are not enough to convince many amp owners here of that phenomenon.I have however,found great sounding tubes of many different makes.Recently I retubed my V-Verb with sovtek 6L6's and it sounds fantastic.They sound better than the winged C's they replaced.There are too many variables with new production tubes these days to make blanket statements.I have had same-make tubes sound different from one batch to the next.It seems to be too much of a crap shoot compared to the old days.

[trap]

if you think that sovteks sound as good as nos, your'e not listening closely enough. and i don't mean that as a put down because i am guilty of the same thing. but really listen, and especially to the overdrive,is it fizzy?, farty? then pop in the nos and listen. tighter, more detailed? more harmonically rich? check it out again.

[rockon1]

I've never found one modern amp that sounds better with its stock tubes compared to old-production. It's nothing to do with the 'voicing' of the amp, it's to do with the tone quality of the tubes.

(IMO)


+1 While my Rivera Chubster sounded good with the stock Sovteks it sounds better with an old stock selection in it. The overall tone and complexity of the distortion channel just sounds better. Bob

[fakeox]

My old style Traynor custom special has its original 6CA7s in it. Sounds good to me!

[Timbre Wolf]

I've never found one modern amp that sounds better with its stock tubes compared to old-production. It's nothing to do with the 'voicing' of the amp, it's to do with the tone quality of the tubes.

(IMO)

Took the words right out of my mouth!!

- Thom

[gtrnstuff]

I agree at least for one amp, my Matchless Lightning. Not that I've got any NOS EL-84s, but when I put in some Sovtek EL-84M (supposed to be hardier), I reverted back to new pair of the stock Sovtek EL-84. The stock ones just have a more pleasing transition to break up.

It's all subjective. And subject to change.

[phsyconoodler]

I wasn't referring to NOS tubes,just new production ones.While many NOS tubes sound superior,there are some real duds there too.
Most of us have to settle for new production vs NOS so the point becomes moot.On stage the differences become lost in the mix.

[John Phillips]

On stage the differences become lost in the mix.I don't agree. I retubed my Mesa DC-5 with old-production throughout, and the difference was extremely obvious in a band mix. It had WAY more definition, presence and character, and was noticeably louder. My drummer and bass player noticed, anyway :). I put a couple of NOS preamp tubes in a friend's Mesa - not even the whole lot - and his soundman noticed. It was apparently much easier to fit into the mix without either getting lost or being too loud.

The difference is real, don't think you can't hear it just because it's in a mix.

[tremolux]

I gave some new TADs I received in a promo a trial run a few weeks back...ran them three nights to give them some break in time onstage......and the difference I heard between the TADS and the NOS I put back in was very evident...especially in the bottom end and the overall clarity...no contest, but could I gig with the TADs if I had to...I could, but wont unless someday I have to...I had done the same a year or two back with GTs new USA and European repros with the same results...the old tubes were so much more dynamic while competing with the bass players 600 watts rms on my side....

[Blue Strat]

I've never found one modern amp that sounds better with its stock tubes compared to old-production. It's nothing to do with the 'voicing' of the amp, it's to do with the tone quality of the tubes.

(IMO)

Funny! I'm always tempted to make a response like this but people would never believe me.:dude

When I hear people say "the amp designer designed the amp around current production tubes" I always laugh. The translation to that is "we made the amp sound good even with crappy tubes".

[s2amps]

Don't forget that very many amp companies are buying the most durable tubes they can manage to find cheap. They don't want to be dealing with customer service issues that turn out to be noisy or uphonic tubes, so they pack their amps with Sovtek 12AX7WA and WBs. Those tubes sound like cardboard to me, but I'm convinced you could beat them with a 2x4 and they would still work.

[Timbre Wolf]

When I hear people say "the amp designer designed the amp around current production tubes" I always laugh. The translation to that is "we made the amp sound good even with crappy tubes".
My interpretation is that those people want to convince themselves not to open up the potentially expensive NOS can o' worms, but instead seek the comfort of ignorance. Too cynical?

- T

[gtrnstuff]

My interpretation is that those people want to convince themselves not to open up the potentially expensive NOS can o' worms, but instead seek the comfort of ignorance. Too cynical?

- T

Fair enough, but... a local tech sold me 3 NOS Mullard 12AX7s a few years back, and though I heard a difference everywhere I put them, it wasn't always better. YMMV, mine sure did.
Plus, two of them quickly became too noisy and/or microphonic to use in V1.

I do have some NOS Phillips JAN preamp tubes and some of their 6V6s that are nice.

I actually like new production 12AX7, sort them for crosstalk (critical in fender BF-type in V1), microphonics and noise (Marshall V1).

[Blue Strat]

My interpretation is that those people want to convince themselves not to open up the potentially expensive NOS can o' worms, but instead seek the comfort of ignorance. Too cynical?

- T

I don't think that's too cynical at all. To take it a step further, I believe that people tend to justify their (often bad) decisions any way possible. Just observe for a few decades, you'll see ;)

[Timbre Wolf]

Fair enough, but... a local tech sold me 3 NOS Mullard 12AX7s a few years back, and though I heard a difference everywhere I put them, it wasn't always better. YMMV, mine sure did.
Plus, two of them quickly became too noisy and/or microphonic to use in V1.

I do have some NOS Phillips JAN preamp tubes and some of their 6V6s that are nice.

I actually like new production 12AX7, sort them for crosstalk (critical in fender BF-type in V1), microphonics and noise (Marshall V1).
It's important to go with what you like, whether new or old, cheap or expensive.

For what it is worth, I don't particularly like short-plate Mullard 12AX7A, Telefunken smooth-plate ECC83, RCA black-plate 12AX7, RCA short-plate 12AX7A or GE short-plate 12AX7; haven't found a place for them (yet), in any of the sixteen potential 12AX7 positions of my amps.

- T

[Timbre Wolf]

Just observe for a few decades, you'll see ;)
Agree! I'm working on my 5th decade, and I've seen it.

- T

[Blue Strat]

It's important to go with what you like, whether new or old, cheap or expensive.

For what it is worth, I don't particularly like short-plate Mullard 12AX7A, Telefunken smooth-plate ECC83, RCA black-plate 12AX7, RCA short-plate 12AX7A or GE short-plate 12AX7; haven't found a place for them (yet), in any of the sixteen potential 12AX7 positions of my amps.

- T

....but I'll bet you're not willing to disclose where to get the gems you DO like at the prices you like to pay. :BITCH

[78tsubaki]

I read this thread and I thought I have some explaining to do.

I re-read my original post and I still stand by what I said.
Vacuum Tube Valley has an interesting article on their Tube FAQ tab. The article was a re-print from Tone Quest Report discussing tubes. The VTV report was edited to include a statement about amp companies designing their amps around super cheap current production tubes and they work just fine. I am not going to provide a direct quote because I did not write the article so I don't own it.

I remember reading this a while back and I dug out my old TQR so I could read the article. Great article June 2004/VOL.5 NO.8.
Makes me want to start hoarding some of the current production tubes!

I was thinking about when I A/Bed my Rivera and what was it that made me buy it in the first place.
Lust pure and simple..... no that is another thread. The tone of the amplifier was good with the tubes provided by Paul and Co.

I have a small supply of killer old stock and I do swap them out from time to time. I agree that most make the amplifier sound different, many make it sound better but the amplifier sounds pretty good just like the day it was born too.

Yes they do make their amps sound good even with crappy tubes.
Lucky for me I don't buy crappy tubes I get mine from KCA.;)

[DanD]

I retubed my Vibrolux Reverb recently. I pulled out a pair of used
12ax7a's, a Bugle Boy and Telefunken and dropped in a new pair of JJ12AX7's.
An hour later the Bugle and TeleF were back in and a singin away.
IMO better tone, better crunch, and better butter.
The new power tubes I put in are JJ's and sound great. They look like Czech tubes. The old set were TungSol RI 5881. Those sounded ok for quite a while but lost tone pretty quick. I'll try another pair someday.
I left in the pi tube. It's a 12at7a telefunken <> and I think that makes a world of diffence in the tone too.

I love that tube tone. Juicey juicey!
Dan

[Timbre Wolf]

....but I'll bet you're not willing to disclose where to get the gems you DO like at the prices you like to pay. :BITCH
I'm not buying any quantity, so this is an unexciting reply. There's no secret, just keeping my eyes open for good bargains over the years, and getting lucky (sometimes good luck, fewer times not) on eBay, and trading/buying from personal contacts. Perhaps my only "secret" is learning how to identify the valuable tubes that are re-branded, or have missing/different labels, then buying cheap, and cull the duds. Pretty tame stuff - sorry. :o

- T

[John Phillips]

I'm not buying any quantity, so this is an unexciting reply. There's no secret, just keeping my eyes open for good bargains over the years, and getting lucky (sometimes good luck, fewer times not) on eBay, and trading/buying from personal contacts. Perhaps my only "secret" is learning how to identify the valuable tubes that are re-branded, or have missing/different labels, then buying cheap, and cull the duds. Pretty tame stuff - sorry.That's how I get mine too.

And by buying tubes from repair customers with vintage amps who may have some surviving power tubes from a set with one blown, or who just want the amp re-tubed anyway - most are actually surprised when offered money off for the old ones, which I always do. I don't change old tubes unless necessary or asked, BTW... and I don't steal tubes. Sometimes it's hard to let a load of great old tubes go back out in an amp when you just know the owner doesn't care, and if it goes to another tech they will most likely get trashed or maybe stolen - I always say things like 'nice old tubes in it, still sound better than new ones, no need to change them' and hope it gets through...

I don't pay high prices, and some of those tubes might be quite valuable if they were NOS - but they're always old, and it's just luck as to what their life expectancy is, so I feel it's fair.

The funny things is that these old, usually worn tubes still sound better, and in the case of the power tubes, almost always put out more measured power, than new-production ones :).

[Blue Strat]

I'm not buying any quantity, so this is an unexciting reply. There's no secret, just keeping my eyes open for good bargains over the years, and getting lucky (sometimes good luck, fewer times not) on eBay, and trading/buying from personal contacts. Perhaps my only "secret" is learning how to identify the valuable tubes that are re-branded, or have missing/different labels, then buying cheap, and cull the duds. Pretty tame stuff - sorry. :o

- T

Mine was more a rhetorical question/comment in the vain of "what's the purpose of bragging/recommending about all the rare and desirable tubes you've accumulated if no one else can find them anywhere". Not a shot at you, but just something I've come to wonder over the years when customers ask for "unobtanium" tubes that are generally in the triple digit price range (but expect, somehow, to cost $25).

[jamison162]

T-Wolf,

I think that's some pretty good advice actually and what I've been doing (esp. the Ebay thing).

[Timbre Wolf]

T-Wolf,

I think that's some pretty good advice actually and what I've been doing (esp. the Ebay thing).
Thanks. The glamour is in the tubes, but not in the method of obtaining them. Just knowledge, and patience. Sometimes it is lots of patience.

I failed to mention that I'm probably one of the few here who have bought nice old tubes (Heerlen Bugle Boy EL84, GE black-plate/3-mica 5751, RCA black-plate 5963, etc.) at my local electronics shop. They're still selling nice NOS tubes at Al Lasher's, on University Avenue, in Berkeley, CA!

- T

[TheAmpNerd]

When I hear people say "the amp designer designed the amp around current production tubes" I always laugh. The translation to that is "we made the amp sound good even with crappy tubes".

Oh the shame Mike.

If you are designing and amp, you have to design around what is current
and know that there will be at least some consistancy with the amp
coming off the line. Of course most designs are based on "classic"
designs though.

I have a couple of friends who build from scratch in small production runs
and they don't design around NOS tubes. In fact their amps don't come
with NOS tubes, they come with current production tubes.

Are you going to risk production on NOS tubes? You'll end up with
more money in tubes than the amps themselves....

Which leads us to another question...why bother....

...Just well NOS tubes and forget the production headaches.

Perhaps there is a method to your madness Mike. :dude

[tremolux]

Theres been little to be very excited about here since I stumbled on a four state RRLA convention sometime around 96-97 in a medium sized place in the southwest, by accident. That was near the end of any quanity/quality finds at low prices....prior to that I have to say the "hunt" was entertaining, but never as glamoress as the way some friends stories go....I still look tho.



The funny things is that these old, usually worn tubes still sound better, and in the case of the power tubes, almost always put out more measured power, than new-production ones :).

yep....

[Blue Strat]

Oh the shame Mike.

If you are designing and amp, you have to design around what is current
and know that there will be at least some consistancy with the amp
coming off the line. Of course most designs are based on "classic"
designs though.

I have a couple of friends who build from scratch in small production runs
and they don't design around NOS tubes. In fact their amps don't come
with NOS tubes, they come with current production tubes.

Are you going to risk production on NOS tubes? You'll end up with
more money in tubes than the amps themselves....

Which leads us to another question...why bother....

...Just well NOS tubes and forget the production headaches.

Perhaps there is a method to your madness Mike. :dude

I guess you missed my point. I totally understand the amp designer's dilemma concerning components including tubes. It's completely understandable to ship production items with easilly attainable components which include tubes.

My point was the bogus justification about continuing to use "third world" tubes in new, often very expensive, ampifiers. ;)

BTW, if you had tested 1/10th as many tubes as I have, you wouldn't have made the comment about "new production tubes" and "consistency". :D

[Blue Strat]

Thanks. The glamour is in the tubes, but not in the method of obtaining them.
- T

So the guy who's bought into a recommendation for an exotic tube, or whatever, should be satisfied to know that someone else has this item but he can't get it?

The worlds of theory and practicality collide once again. ;)

[Timbre Wolf]

So the guy who's bought into a recommendation for an exotic tube, or whatever, should be satisfied to know that someone else has this item but he can't get it?
Patience and persistence has always brought me success - I don't see why that wouldn't work for anyone else with a passion for these little magic bottles.

- T

[Blue Strat]

Patience and persistence has always brought me success - I don't see why that wouldn't work for anyone else with a passion for these little magic bottles.

- T

I'm "witchya". However, in these days of instant gratification......

BTW, ever done anything with Mazda 12AX7s?

[Timbre Wolf]

BTW, ever done anything with Mazda 12AX7s?
:worried Who's been talking to you? ...not anything I want to discuss in public!!


Just kidding. I haven't ever had any Mazda (or Adzam) 12AX7 to try. You mean the silver-plate ones? What can you tell me (us) about them?

- T

[Blue Strat]

:worried Who's been talking to you? ...not anything I want to discuss in public!!


Just kidding. I haven't ever had any Mazda (or Adzam) 12AX7 to try. You mean the silver-plate ones? What can you tell me (us) about them?

- T

LOL! Actually, I was thinking of the grey plate version.

As you know by now, I don't do the "subjective analysis" thing because I've learned that it's virtually pointless (and my 53 year old ears suck anyway). :D

[Timbre Wolf]

LOL! Actually, I was thinking of the grey plate version.

As you know by now, I don't do the "subjective analysis" thing because I've learned that it's virtually pointless (and my 53 year old ears suck anyway). :D
I'm curious, but the law of diminishing returns applies to my tonal education - especially for a short gray-plate 12AX7. I'll have to be content with what I've already got.

If you want to loan a couple to someone with intact hearing (tested annually) for evaluation, I'd be willing to do that without charging you! :YinYang

- T

[Blue Strat]

I'm curious, but the law of diminishing returns applies to my tonal education - especially for a short gray-plate 12AX7. I'll have to be content with what I've already got.

If you want to loan a couple to someone with intact hearing (tested annually) for evaluation, I'd be willing to do that without charging you! :YinYang

- T

I'm not convinced that generalizations about plate length and color can be taken seriously.

These actually have "longish" plates (the French version, not the ones shown on my site).

[Timbre Wolf]

I'm not convinced that generalizations about plate length and color can be taken seriously.

These actually have "longish" plates (the French version, not the ones shown on my site).

I admit my bigotry: I'm a platist. Short gray-plate tubes lack the clarity of their long-plate production plant siblings - that's the generalization I take seriously. Black vs. gray plate generalizations have exceptions, but many black-plate tubes exhibit early-breakup (not the early '50s Sylvania long black-plate 12AX7, though). I don't know what to say about "silver" plates (that could apply to the Mazda as well as Ei).

But I won't know about the exceptional character of the "longish" plates (is that 15.5mm?) on those Mazda 12AX7 at $95 each. I've never even paid that much for a '57 Amperex metal-base GZ34! Honestly, without some clue as to the character of a tube, I've little impetus to throw around that kind of money - I guess I'm just cheap that way :rolleyes:

Seems it would get you some more business to have at least some sort of sonic characterization for the tubes you sell, Mike. Throw us a bone, and slap an obvious YMMV disclaimer on it.

I know, I know ....:horse

But if you change your mind, I'm willing to help!

- T

[Blue Strat]

I admit my bigotry: I'm a platist. Short gray-plate tubes lack the clarity of their long-plate production plant siblings - that's the generalization I take seriously. Black vs. gray plate generalizations have exceptions, but many black-plate tubes exhibit early-breakup (not the early '50s Sylvania long black-plate 12AX7, though). I don't know what to say about "silver" plates (that could apply to the Mazda as well as Ei).

But I won't know about the exceptional character of the "longish" plates (is that 15.5mm?) on those Mazda 12AX7 at $95 each. I've never even paid that much for a '57 Amperex metal-base GZ34! Honestly, without some clue as to the character of a tube, I've little impetus to throw around that kind of money - I guess I'm just cheap that way :rolleyes:

Seems it would get you some more business to have at least some sort of sonic characterization for the tubes you sell, Mike. Throw us a bone, and slap an obvious YMMV disclaimer on it.

I know, I know ....:horse

But if you change your mind, I'm willing to help!

- T


I wasn't suggesting that you spend money. I just asked if you had any experience, etc.

Opinions are great, but that's all they are and they belong only to whoever owns them;)

[harryjmic]

I usually use a mixture of old and new but for the tone sections I generally prefer NOS. One odd thing is when I was messing with my Guytron I found that a Sovtek 12ax7WB worked better for creating singing sustain and notes that would ring into feedback then any other tube I had, I did try an RCA, Sylvania, Telefunken, RFT, and various new production tubes. Luckily I found a NOS Tesla (not JJ) that did the same thing but the tone was better, otherwise i would have kept a Sovtek in there.

[TheAmpNerd]

I guess you missed my point. I totally understand the amp designer's dilemma concerning components including tubes. It's completely understandable to ship production items with easilly attainable components which include tubes.

My point was the bogus justification about continuing to use "third world" tubes in new, often very expensive, ampifiers. ;)

BTW, if you had tested 1/10th as many tubes as I have, you wouldn't have made the comment about "new production tubes" and "consistency". :D

Mike you don't selll any tubes to the manufacturing crowd?

[Blue Strat]

Mike you don't selll any tubes to the manufacturing crowd?

I have in a few cases where they wanted TESTED tubes. In general, they can get them in bulk for less than I sell them for. I'm not a wholesaler.