MY rig sounds digital?!?! Rack stereotyping...

[Funky Monkey]

First gig with the new band last night. The soundman is basically a fifth member and I respect him highly. Besides the normal first show jitters, I thought it went exceptionally well. But our set ends and the first thing he tells me was that he didn't feel like he could turn me up as high as he wanted to because I sounded "too digital" and that I needed to go back to my practice rig. I'm kinda miffed.

The only difference between my practice rig and what I used last night was, instead of a Marshall Echohead in my loop for delays, I brought my girly-rack and used my Line 6 Echo Pro. And, listening back this morning to the videotape of the show, I couldn't really even hear my delay trails very often anyway. Very, very subtle stuff.

I admit that the Echohead is a surprisingly great little pedal. But this gig calls for no less than 6 delay time settings in the setlist and the Line 6 is a major convenience. Trying to dial them in consistently on a pedal without presets will cut into the set. I'm not using any of the modeled delays, just the "normal" digital delay, which I've adjusted the treble and bass to make the tone of the trails identical to the setting that I use on the Echohead. And there is absolutely no difference between the tone or feel of my straight signal when I have the delay on or off. This is indisputable.

I think he saw my rack, equated it with "dated" or "modeling" and made his decision before I even turned it on. That sucks. There is no doubt that the Echo Pro is a digital delay...but so is the Echohead. What really gets me is that the guitarist in the band after us uses a Line 6 DL4 set on the analog model which is my least favorite of the bunch (blatantly fake trails in my opinion) with the mix set at unity level for the first repeat- and my guy had nothing bad to say about it. :jo

Practice this Wednesday will be interesting. He's already made up his mind, so how do I convince this guy that just because my Echo Pro has a numeric display, it doesn't make my amp sound fake...certainly not any more fake than a digital delay pedal?

[jbro]

..print out a picture of a classic tube amp and tape it to the front of your rack?

[yellowecho]

set up your practice rig up front and keep the real deal backstage... then wait for the compliments and reveal the switcharoo! :D

actually, can you just take the delay out of the loop? Delays in effects loop can sound processed because they're too perfect. Many guitarists like this tone and it works for them, though (Perfect Circle).. so ultimately it's up to you!

[Funky Monkey]

..print out a picture of a classic tube amp and tape it to the front of your rack?

:D
But he actually really digs my amp. If I printed out a picture of an Echohead, he'd be happy. But that's what bothers me.

[Funky Monkey]

set up your practice rig up front and keep the real deal backstage... then wait for the compliments and reveal the switcharoo! :D

actually, can you just take the delay out of the loop? Delays in effects loop can sound processed because they're too perfect. Many guitarists like this tone and it works for them, though (Perfect Circle).. so ultimately it's up to you!

Nah, I need it in the loop. But, again, he's fine with the pedal in the loop. I just don't see a difference- except the inconvenience.

I’m sending him an e-mail before our next practice. He’s not averse to digital…the core of his studio is ProTools and none of his outboard gear is analog. I guess I’d just call him an amp modeling "snob." Admittedly, I was also going through three other units in my rack before my signal hit the delay. Even though those pieces were all bypassed, that’s three unnecessary AD/DA conversions. Is that audible? I don’t think so- I’ve A/B’d it before and there is no perceptible difference through my guitar speaker. Will it appease him if I plug directly into, and only into, the Echo Pro? I sure hope so. I don't want to butt heads this early in the game, especially since it really isn't a "fight" but just me stewing over a little comment. But I am standing my ground on this one and just hope he agrees.

[TieDyedDevil]

Sadly, there are a lot of people who "hear digital" as soon as they "see digital". It's a matter of expectations, right or wrong...

If you have everything preprogrammed, just put some kind of visual barrier in front of your rack. Of course, now that your sound guy has seen the rack, the cat's already out of the bag...

If you have a spare space in your rack, maybe you can play the sound guy's game: throw together a dummy panel with a couple of knobs and label it "The Analogizer". Tell the sound guy that it "reconstructs the signal by converging the group delay of the harmonics" or some similar important-sounding BS. (See The Mixerman Chronicles w.r.t. the "soar" knob...)

At any rate, even if your delay is adding artifacts to the sound, they're going to be so far down in the noise that no one's going to be able to tell with all the other stuff going on...

Your sound guy might be responding to something he doesn't like about your rack rig, but it has nothing to do with being "digital". A/B your two rigs: maybe there's a noticeable difference in EQ or compression or ...

[Lolaviola]

Let him do the delays at the board using your Line6.

[John Phillips]

First gig with the new band last night. The soundman is basically a fifth member and I respect him highly. Besides the normal first show jitters, I thought it went exceptionally well. But our set ends and the first thing he tells me was that he didn't feel like he could turn me up as high as he wanted to because I sounded "too digital" and that I needed to go back to my practice rig. I'm kinda miffed.

The only difference between my practice rig and what I used last night was, instead of a Marshall Echohead in my loop for delays, I brought my girly-rack and used my Line 6 Echo Pro. And, listening back this morning to the videotape of the show, I couldn't really even hear my delay trails very often anyway. Very, very subtle stuff.

I admit that the Echohead is a surprisingly great little pedal. But this gig calls for no less than 6 delay time settings in the setlist and the Line 6 is a major convenience. Trying to dial them in consistently on a pedal without presets will cut into the set. I'm not using any of the modeled delays, just the "normal" digital delay, which I've adjusted the treble and bass to make the tone of the trails identical to the setting that I use on the Echohead. And there is absolutely no difference between the tone or feel of my straight signal when I have the delay on or off. This is indisputable.

I think he saw my rack, equated it with "dated" or "modeling" and made his decision before I even turned it on. That sucks. There is no doubt that the Echo Pro is a digital delay...but so is the Echohead. What really gets me is that the guitarist in the band after us uses a Line 6 DL4 set on the analog model which is my least favorite of the bunch (blatantly fake trails in my opinion) with the mix set at unity level for the first repeat- and my guy had nothing bad to say about it. :jo

Practice this Wednesday will be interesting. He's already made up his mind, so how do I convince this guy that just because my Echo Pro has a numeric display, it doesn't make my amp sound fake...certainly not any more fake than a digital delay pedal?There's a big difference between digital delays which only digitize the delay - which the Boss delays do, and possibly the Marshall does (I haven't tried it), and those which digitize the dry signal path too - which Line6 does... though also with the DL-4.

You're probably right that there is no difference between the sound with the delay on or off, because if the Line6 digitizes the bypass as well, there won't be (the DL-4 does too, when set to non-'true'-bypass). But there is a BIG difference between this and not digitizing the dry signal path... that's a major reason why I don't have a DL-4 any more. (FWIW, the 'true' bypass on the DL-4 was of no value to me since I rarely if ever turned it off - just used different settings.) If the guy with the DL-4 was using it only rarely and had it set to 'true' bypass, his tone (when he wasn't using the delay) would have been noticeably better. This is why I can't see the point in 'true' bypass on pedals like this either BTW - there's too big a change when you turn it on.

If you're not tuned in to this difference yet, you may not hear it... but once you do, it's so significant you'll wonder how you didn't before :).

What you need to do to avoid it is to set the delay unit to 100% wet and run it in a parallel mix with the (non-digitized) dry signal. The problem with that is that you only get one mix setting though...

At any rate, even if your delay is adding artifacts to the sound, they're going to be so far down in the noise that no one's going to be able to tell with all the other stuff going on...
Everyone seems to say this about everything from digital effects to NOS tubes to upgraded guitar pots and caps etc... and in my experience it is simply NOT TRUE.

The 'subtle' differences that make the difference between OK tone and great tone are easily audible in even a dense band mix, because they affect the dynamics and presence as much as the actual tone itself - and it can make all the difference between something sitting naturally in the mix, and being difficult to balance without either being too loud or getting lost.

I've heard this countless times as both a musician and a soundman, BTW.

[Funky Monkey]

there is a BIG difference between this and not digitizing the dry signal path...


I use a wireless...I can't worry about anything after it being digital (unless the specs are just completely horrible) because I'm already digital right out of the gate. But, while he hasn't said anything about my wireless, had he discovered that first, perhaps it would've been the chosen "culprit" last night. I use it at practice though, so I would've been quick to point that out.

I've definitely heard and felt the difference before with other digital units, but I can take the Echo Pro in and out of the path and for the life of me (and others who I've subjected a listening test to) there is no difference in sound or feel. Not just the bypass button (which is set up for analog bypass, but I leave the unit always-on anyway) but physically unplugging the cables from my effects loop. There's no denying that there's ad/da happening when it's on. However, it's just plain not perceptible here. Definitely not the reason to say "I didn't feel like I could turn you up in the mix" as a result. Listening to the video, I didn't need to be up any higher anyway, but the delay level could've been louder.

I guess until someone in the audience comes up to me and says, "Man, you're tone sure is digital sounding" I'll be alright. :D

[nnajar]

just tell him you like the way your rig sounds and walk away. It's your rig anyway,he's not playing it.

N

[Roodboy]

You'll never convince him of anything his minds already made up.

[dosmun]

Kick him in the nuts. That is supposed to help a soundmans hearing.:crazy

[Lolaviola]

just tell him you like the way your rig sounds and walk away. It's your rig anyway,he's not playing it.

N
:nono
Well if you opened up a dialogue about it and listened to his comments you may find that the "digital" comment was in a completely different context. It may not be your digital equipment, maybe your speakers or your guitar was contributing to his overall impression.

It is important as musicians to keep an open mind. Shutting down because you are offended will only continue the bad blood. Before it goes any further express your desire to truly understand where the problem lies, listen to his opinion and take it from there. Even if you do nothing about it. You will continue to work with this guy, I assume, so get him on your side. Be the bigger man and listen closely, it will only hurt for a minute ;~)

[Funky Monkey]

:nono
Well if you opened up a dialogue about it and listened to his comments you may find that the "digital" comment was in a completely different context. It may not be your digital equipment, maybe your speakers or your guitar was contributing to his overall impression.

It is important as musicians to keep an open mind. Shutting down because you are offended will only continue the bad blood. Before it goes any further express your desire to truly understand where the problem lies, listen to his opinion and take it from there. Even if you do nothing about it. You will continue to work with this guy, I assume, so get him on your side. Be the bigger man and listen closely, it will only hurt for a minute ;~)

I had to break down and he had to set up for the next band, so there wasn’t an opportunity to debate or disprove him. I was left to stew about it and post this thread (yeah, I’m one of those guys.)

The thing to keep in mind is that he’s comparing it to my practice rig, which he’s already 100% approved of. The only difference is that I showed up to the gig with a rack to get the same delay times/tones that I was fumbling with my pedal for at practice. So none of the other pieces (amp, guitar, speaker, etc. are factors.)

I definitely love and respect the guy. Known him for years. He’s the very first person in this town that bands go to for quality live sound and studio recording. His output and catalog back him up. I’ve just never been in “his” band. Maybe it was a coaching technique.

Oh well, I wrote him earlier this evening to tell him that I would plug directly into and out of the Echo Pro to take all of the other pieces completely out of the equation. And I offered to do a listening test so that we could both be sure that it wasn’t an offending piece. He replied that it sounds like I’m on it and thanked me for my concern. Whew! Maybe I’ll slowly re-introduce the other pieces over time and see if this comes up again. Not to call him out, but just to get everything back in order so that I don’t have to re-patch every time I go back and forth between other projects. I’m all about convenience.

[GovernorSilver]

If I had that situation, I'd want to know what he means by "digital". Too muddy? Too many harsh highs? Too much clipping? Not enough mids? Not enough bass?

You may not have had the time at that moment to get a good explanation from him, but since you seem to have an ongoing working relationship with this soundman, talk to him at the next opportunity to get a better idea of what he means. "Too digital" is just too vague a comment to be meaningful.

[strumminsix]

IMO 2 things:
#1 you should definately utilize this dudes ears to help shape your tone if he's that good. I no longer use Line6 gear live because I can hear the A>D>A conversion even if bypassed. But that is my preference NOT the band's or soundman's and you should have that right as well..

#2 he needs to be an advocate to the total mix not an advocate of his preferences ("I didn't feel like I could turn you up in the mix"). This is very worrisome and seems a bit controlling. My favorite band had a soundguy who didn't like the rhythm guitarist nor his tone and he was absent from too many mixes. It was a real shame and did a great disservice.

[Funky Monkey]

If I had that situation, I'd want to know what he means by "digital". Too muddy? Too many harsh highs? Too much clipping? Not enough mids? Not enough bass?

You may not have had the time at that moment to get a good explanation from him, but since you seem to have an ongoing working relationship with this soundman, talk to him at the next opportunity to get a better idea of what he means. "Too digital" is just too vague a comment to be meaningful.

Harsh highs with a sterile and fake "feeling" to it. His motto (and mine, too) is, "I want the guitar to sound like a guitar." But I thought it did. It really is just a case of stereotyping; once he saw the rack, I didn't even have to hit a note. "Something" was probably wrong, but he saw Line 6 and so that was what he pointed his finger at. What I heard back was fine by me. If anything, I've deduced it to the mic being too distant and/or my amp not being quite loud enough. Another 4-5 db would've been cool. But blaming it on the rack just doesn't wash, especially since the guitarist in the next band used essentially the same piece of offending gear and it passed.

But I also just remembered that it was the last night of a long week for him mixing a few dozen bands in a beer tent during the hottest, muggiest time of the year. He tallied up 77 sets. Whew! It may have sounded great to me and everyone in the crowd who came up afterwards to say so, but yeah, there's definitely some fatigue there on his end.

IMO 2 things:
#1 you should definately utilize this dudes ears to help shape your tone if he's that good. I no longer use Line6 gear live because I can hear the A>D>A conversion even if bypassed. But that is my preference NOT the band's or soundman's and you should have that right as well..

#2 he needs to be an advocate to the total mix not an advocate of his preferences ("I didn't feel like I could turn you up in the mix"). This is very worrisome and seems a bit controlling. My favorite band had a soundguy who didn't like the rhythm guitarist nor his tone and he was absent from too many mixes. It was a real shame and did a great disservice.

Definitely all for using his ears to help me. This was more of a "feeling" thing and not so much of an aural thing. I've decided this morning not to put too much stock into it for the above reasons. Outside in a tent at 40 feet away isn't exactly the best critical listening environment. :jo Heck, the mics were probably tired and sweaty, too.

#2 is probably partially right, but in a positive way. I never thought he was out to get me or anything like that. The coaching technique I was thinking of is along the lines of "don't tell him everything was great or he'll slack right off the bat and won't strive to improve." I can hang with that.

I let my emotions take over, but definitely wasn't "mad" or anything. All is cool and I'm sure practice tomorrow will be swell. :) I wonder if I have time to borrow a Roland GK setup from somebody. :D

PS- All this, yet one of his and my absolute favorite guitarists is Adrian Belew. Probably his #1 guy actually. Go figure.