John Phillips!!! Hogy!!! Repairmen one and all!!!- Question for you guys.

[jackaroo]

I have a LP Jr. from '56- it's a great guitar, but it's in need of a refret.

The guitar as it stands, is 100% original with the exception of the tuner buttons, and it's pretty damn clean- so it's worth my while to keep it as original as possible, but I'm really wanting the better playability that a new fret job would bring.

Here's the dilemma- the nut slots are kinda low. I guess they were deepened over the years with each G&P the guitar received, and now, when new frets are put in, there's going to be problems.

How can I keep the old nut-WITHOUT having to use a shim?

The nut material is delrin I think, and I'm wondering if you've had any luck building it up like you can with bone dust and crazy glue?

Any tips/tricks or advice from you two guys would certainly be appreciated- I really don't want to F this thing up, or if possible- alter the 100% status of it's pedigree. Heck it's come this far alright and I don't want to be the guy that boogers it up!

Thanks-

Jack

[John Phillips]

Very difficult. Not much bonds well to those nuts.

My honest opinion is that since the tuner buttons and the frets aren't going to be original anyway it's not 100%, and so you should just have a new nut expertly made from the correct material.

I don't think that's 'boogering it up' - it's essential maintenance. Playability is more important than originality in all but the most extreme cases - ie if it's a true museum piece that's better not played than altered.

Just my opinion :).

[Jack Briggs]

A Delrin nut wouldn't be original. They didn't have it back in '56. But, yes you can glue little splints into string slots and refile. Splints have to be near exact size of the slot so it requires a good hand.

[jackaroo]

Jack- Thanks for the info, what is the material if not delrin? How do you secure the splints? what adheres to this as yet unnamed material from '56?

John-I was thinking the same thing. I figured that's the way I'm going with it.

Now I just have to figure out the fret size I'm looking for.

[riffmeister]

Ahem. We CANT have a thread like this w/o pics. :mad:

:D

P.S. I agree with John, if you're going to refret, it's no longer original and you might as well redo the nut. But of course save the original nut.......

[jackaroo]

For you Pete...anything-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jack_devine/56%20LP%20jr/IMG_2523.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jack_devine/56%20LP%20jr/IMG_2502.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jack_devine/56%20LP%20jr/IMG_2534.jpg

[Jack Briggs]

Jack,

Wow - beautiful 'board on that! FWIW - I seriously doubt the frets are original. Juniors from the '50's used the skinny wire to be sure.

I'm with John on replacing the nut. I'd do it and not think twice. Since it won't be 100% original, make it as playable as you can.

As far as what glue for splints - assuming you'd take that direction - Ca or Superglue is what to use. But I'd make this a second choice to a new nut.

[Soapbarstrat]

Could almost swear I once came across some Dan Erlewine article where he fills old Gibson nut slots with dental fill and some kind of "UV curing light" that he borrowed from a dentist.

[57special]

Could almost swear I once came across some Dan Erlewine article where he fills old Gibson nut slots with dental fill and some kind of "UV curing light" that he borrowed from a dentist.

Frank Ford does the same thing.
Frets do look fat for a mid 50's Gibson, but maybe it just the photo distorting things. They shouldn't be more than .080" W. I know you know your vintage stuff...

Jack, how well does the Jr. intonate?

Finally got a Jr. together to old specs, and I'm stunned at how good it sounds.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/dixon321/IMG_0407.jpg

[lv]

Gorgeous rosewood on that one!

[gkoelling]

Finally got a Jr. together to old specs, and I'm stunned at how good it sounds.


I'm not. Judging by your past work, I expected it to sound & play great. It also looks fantastic.

[Rosewood]

If that is the original frets I believe I would fix those nut slots since the rest of it looks about as good or better than any I've seen. I usually say fret it and replace the nut because I'm a luthier but sometimes you run across one that just needs saving. Nice guitar.

[jackaroo]

Hi- first thanks for the advice and comments guys- I appreciate the time, and the thoughtful nature of the responses posted.

As to the fretboard- Yes, that's the most incredible piece of wood- the thing sounds great too. It's just that the frets are a little too low for me to use it for everything. Bending in the lower end of the fret-board in particular. It intonates fine enough I guess, though I don't ask too much of it in that dept.

I like the idea of the dental goo/UV trick...that's pretty hi tech. Who else does that level of work? I called Norio, Matt @ 30thSt- didn't reach Derek at Gruhn's, and Phil Jacoby or Larry Fitzgerald . Anyway I called these guys for advice- I've heard "shim it" a few times and thought myself about replacing the nut cleanly, and keeping the old one in the case- but I'd love to keep it as straight as possible and not introduce another story- the tuner buttons are enough.

Everyone that's seen it thinks the frets are original, and they're done/morte. The shadows in the pic seems to add to the girth and height but who knows? They could have been replaced- They do seem bigger than those on Norio's '57 lp jr.

I was thinking of going up to match the size of the frets on the '59. But I'm having second thoughts now.

What size fret is on the originals?
What is one size bigger in all directions?

The guitar is in line at the shop and we've yet to order the wire for the job- nothing's been done yet- so any advice is still very helpful, and I can send it somewhere else too if need be (looks that way).


Thanks again!

Jack


another pic of the fretboard

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/jack_devine/56%20LP%20jr/IMG_2528.jpg

[EADGBE]

A Delrin nut wouldn't be original. They didn't have it back in '56.
Yeah, just put a new bone nut on there while you're getting the re-fret.

[jackaroo]

here's a link to an article by Mr. Ford on the UV light rig...pretty cool.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/HighTechDept/LightSpeed/LightCureNutFill/lightcurenut.html

[jackaroo]

^^^

I don't want to break the lacquer at the nut.


JD

[Dana Olsen]

Jack,

Wow - beautiful 'board on that! FWIW - I seriously doubt the frets are original. Juniors from the '50's used the skinny wire to be sure.

I'm with John on replacing the nut. I'd do it and not think twice. Since it won't be 100% original, make it as playable as you can.

As far as what glue for splints - assuming you'd take that direction - Ca or Superglue is what to use. But I'd make this a second choice to a new nut.I own, with Mark Robinson, a '56 Junior that had original frets on it when we got it - we bought it from the original owner. From this pic, those do not look like the original frets. That rosewood fretboard is dazzling - Wow!

I'm in the camp with John Phillips and Jack Briggs - Mark and I refretted ours and never looked back. We used 6105's - they're medium width but tall, so they look like vintage frets (until you get close) and play better. You can mill them down a little if you don't like the height - some folks feel that they're a little 'bumpy' when they're tall but not wide, but I like 'em. I have them on several other guitars too.

As for the nut, you have to do what the guitar needs to be playable. I think you'd be a lot better off with a good bone nut that fit right and had the slots the right height - it'll make your guitar feel WONDERFUL. Dye the edges of the nut a bit - in a year it'll look totally vintage. Save the old one for provenance, or for fun!

Better to have a great guitar than an original one, IMHO.

What a great guitar, Dana O.

[jackaroo]

Dana-

Yeah man...6105s seem a little "speedbumpy to me sometimes- I like them on strats though. That's what I was looking to avoid, but I guess my guy is going to be doing a lot of grinding to get them down to the right height.

I've got to do my homework and figure out what to do- "measure twice cut once type" of thing re: the nut/slots.


Folks that say it's original fretwire:

Dan @ Chelsea Guitars
Matt @ 30th Street
The guy I bought it from

I don't care about that though- I just want it right.


I played a Fano the otherday that had some great frets- those were 6105s, but I guess they were brought down a bit.

Thanks

[Soapbarstrat]

I have found that digital photography makes frets look a little wider than they really are.

[jackaroo]

That and the late pm shadows and and... The point is not that the frets were original- seeing as I'm getting them replaced.

Anyway-

I've talked with some more folks and I'm getting closer to answering the ?. Thanks for the tips and keep 'em coming.

Anyone know Dan Erlewine's #?

Or anyone else who's got the dental UV gizmo trick together.

Everyone else has stated that a little crazy glue with either cotton fibers, toilet paper, or baking soda will work great. But I'm skeptical and it just seems a little mickey mouse to me...Another place said it could be done, but wouldn't tell me their process.

I spoke to
Gruhn's- cotton fibers... willing to look into the dental/uv technology
Mandolin Bros. toilet paper (cotton again)
Rudy's ( baking soda)
Umanov's (secret sauce)
Gryphon ( Dental UV method)

If I go the Gryphon route...I'll need a SF Bay area TGP member to take the guitar there for me as they only accept walk ins- ie no mail repairs.

Any volunteers to be my proxy?

Last but not least-
Fret sizes?

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Fretwire/2/Stewart-MacDonald_Fretwire.html

I'm looking at

width .08
crown .05
tang .048

Basically it's vintage Fender wire with a little extra height so that there's plenty of room to work with. The originals LP Jrs were .074 I'm told Derek @ Gruhn measured a 55 junior and a 57 Goldtop for me today.

I was going to go with .095 for more of the vibe on the '59 LP Jrs that I've played...but now I'm having second thoughts thanks to 57special.

There's a .084 x .039 thats looking like a good candidate too... but there's not too much height there- I wanted the end product to be around .04 high- so I'll be starting at a loss. Or is that too high?

What says you guys?

Like I said- thanks to everyone for helping me figure this one out- I'm confident the nut can stay...it's just a matter finding the right tech/method and materials.

Cheers,

JD

[57special]

Jack- I meant that the smaller frets belonged on an original mid 50's instrument. I put Stew Mac #154 - .05" x. 1"( my fav all round fret) on my Junior. IF the frets that are on are original, you might want to go with a smaller fret width so as not increase the fret "footprint" on the fretboard. I would strongly suggest you get some calipers on those frets and take it from there.
Most electric Gibson players prefer frets at least .095" wide ( though i've heard that Leslie West likes the old, small, ones) though i guess you know that. If people know it's been refretted, I think very few will complain that it's got the wider frets should you ever decide to sell it. I also don't think it's such a big deal to change the nut, BUT you will probably more than make back the money you spent on the repair should you decide to sell.
You know Dan Erlewine has his own section over at the Les Paul Forum, don't you?
Check out this discussion on vintage gibson frets.
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125334&highlight=

[David Collins]

Preservation vs. restoration. If you want to preserve it, don't touch the frets or nut and put it in a box. If you want to restore it to full functionality, have it refretted and a new bone nut made, and play it. To me it's kind of like wanting to have the motor on your '55 Chevy rebuilt, but trying to avoid replacing the plug wires and distributor cap at all costs.

I hope that doesn't come out as too course, as I certainly don't mean it that way. I'm just saying that at some point a decision has to be made as to where it stands between preservation of a museum piece, or a player's instrument. It's not a '59 burst, and it won't ever reach that status. On the other hand it's not a beat up 90's LP junior that can be thrashed guilt-free. It's in the middle somewhere, and in my experience things like replaced frets and nuts are considered standard maintenance (so long as they are done well) and will have relatively little impact on this particular instrument's value. It's a player worth caring for, but these maintenances are generally to be expected.

I say have it refretted with your comfort and preference as main priority in choosing fret size. Have a new bone nut made, specifying that you would like to keep the shape and profile a close match to the old one, and keep the old one in the case. You can even request the tech shoots for an appropriate tint of bone, and it's not unheard of to varnish the sides with some amber shellac to match the vintage tint. Upon close inspection any knowledgeable dealer will see that's it's replaced, but if the work is of high enough quality it can have as little as zero impact on the instruments value.

[jackaroo]

Thanks David

[levelfrets]

Unfortunately you pretty much always have to remove the original nut for refrets however I have been able to get away with not removing it at all. A qualified repairman is the true judge of this and you should trust his word if they are good. Sometimes the slots are still high enough and the fingerboard is pretty level except for the higher register(which you don't need to remove the nut to level) and you can get away with it. If the slots are low and the entire fingerboard needs leveling, you have to remove the nut. Usually replacing it with bone. If you are in it to play it, I wouldn't hesitate putting a bone nut on there and the fret size of your preference. This is what the guitar was made for right? If you are too concerned about originality, I would clean it up, dress the frets and put her away or sell it. IMO.

[jackaroo]

Look-

The guitar will get played for sure, but there's also the potential of selling it down the line.

So with that in mind, I want to do what's right for the guitar, and me at the same time.

Also, I like playing guitars that have their own thing/feel/vibe...rather than installing the same frets on everything, or the same pickups on everything just because they're my "favorite". Those quirks etc. make you play a little differently depending on the instrument- at least for me. Limitations are sometimes exactly what I need. They make me have to get creative and struggle a bit which makes me get out of my head and a little more in the moment. OK- now we're getting into metaphysics-

Bottom line-I feel like putting huge frets on it is silly, unnatural and will detract not only from the resale, but my enjoyment too- though I do have some guitars with jumbo wire on them- dig?

The truth is I don't really have a favorite fret/pickup/ etc...everything has it's own personality and has it's little place in my musical world.

So I guess I'm looking for something that's very playable, but keeps the "50's SC Junior" vibe alive and well.

Cheers-

Jackson

[57special]

You might want to look at the Stew Mac #152. It's .092 W. It's not as bumpy feeling as the 6105's, and is small enough to have a small fret feel. Otherwise, you're down to the .080 W frets which would definitely preserve the original feel. Much more of a fight, but some feel they have a better tone.
I'm going to be refretting my old 335 soon, but since it's nowhere near as original as yours I'll be free to put whatever i want on it. It'll be the .05"H x .1" W Stew Mac #154, which feel the smoothest to me of all the frets, yet aren't obnoxiously big.

[jackaroo]

Well...

I'm just off the phone with Dan Erlewine-

I'm sending the guitar to him next week and I guess he'll be taking it from there. I'm pretty excited to see what comes of this.

Shocking too was the fact that the guitar will be done in under a month.

Thanks to everyone for their help and advice-

Peace,

Jack