countdown to giant steps (coltrane question)

[MrDoty]

so I'm back in the woodshed after a month and a half of playing gigs every night and I'm hitting it hard. I got a question for the guys out there working on Coltrane stuff. Im working out of the Abersold book countdown to giant steps which is basically a tutorial and play along covering some of Coltrane's harder tunes. 26-2, countdown, giant steps, central park west, satelite..etc. So the question for you guys that have covered/mastered soloing over these tunes is this; do you prefer the arpegio based approach to these things or the modal (cover as many chords with one scale as you can) approach? obvoiusly the arp. based approach is much harder, but you hear those rediculus changes better in your solo. Im sure that combining the two would be the ultimate goal, but where did you guys start?
next on my plate is doing the opposite of this and playing these changes over static/simplier changes to get that wacky outside Coltrane sound going. for now though im just trying to make that changes and stay inside. I hope this makes sense because Im so much better at talking than typing.
cheers:BEER

[dkaplowitz]

Here's an interesting thread from a couple weeks back...

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=270159

[StevenA]

The chord progression to Giant Steps was so unique that it was given it's own category: Coltrane changes. Most players choose the chord tone approach when soloing because they have trained themselves to hear these difficult changes. Ask yourself if your unaccompanied solo can be identified as GS.
I think that is what most soloists are trying to accomplish.

Steven

[gennation]

Coltrane really hits these types of pseudo arp lines:

R 2 M3 5 for the Maj7

R 2 M3 5 and 5 6 b7 9 Dom7 chords

R 2 b3 5 and 5 6 b7 9 for m7 chords

This way he still uses lines, but follows the changes. And notice the similarity between the lines starting on the 5th for the Dom7 and m7 chords. Kind of a "one for two" idea. Like it flattens out the two chords using the similar Intervals, but staying away from the "3rd".

Has anyone else noticed this? Of course this isn't everything he does, but it seems to allow you to play lines but follow the chords nicely.

[yZe]

Coltrane does it all on the original GS recording

modal, arp tones, II-V-I's

For instance, on the F-7 Bb7 Eb∆7, he uses Eb major scale runs w/some chromatics

Aside from all the cool stuff he uses, my favorite is when he sustains the right notes over the bar line through the changes so it doesn't just sound like he's "making the changes"

That has been the hardest thing for me lately is tying the ideas over the barlines

[Lucidology]

Aside from all the cool stuff he uses, my favorite is when he sustains the right notes over the bar line through the changes so it doesn't just sound like he's "making the changes"

That has been the hardest thing for me lately is tying the ideas over the barlines


Think this is a great idea for a new thread discussion ....
How to weave your ideas almost as if there's no chord changes..

[guitbeef]

...Aside from all the cool stuff he uses, my favorite is when he sustains the right notes over the bar line through the changes so it doesn't just sound like he's "making the changes"

That has been the hardest thing for me lately is tying the ideas over the barlines

Me, too, it's tough, ain't it? Here's a tip I picked up over at playjazzguitar.com forum and it's worked well for me (over the "B" section, that is):

Everytime it holds one of the all-too brief tonic major 7 chords, of course the the next key center is a major third up. In other words, a 2-5-1 starting a tritone away from the "current" Imaj7 chord. (This is true of all except the last 2-5 leading back to the beginning of the A section). So while I'm on Ebmaj7, I visualize the tritone (A), or the 2-5-1 starting with the tritone. So when I'm practicing I've been thinking about common tones between the two to help me play over the barlines. So, for example, a G note sustained over the Ebmaj7 turns into the minor 7th of the new 2m chord. A D note changes from a major 7th to a sus4 of the new 2m chord. Sometimes I visualize the tritone and get the next key from it but instead of focusing on the 2m coming up I just envision the new key. So in that case the maj7th note of Eb (a D note) is the 5 of the new key, and a major 3rd (G) is the tonic note of the new key. So when I'm analyzing it in my practicing I'll focus on 2-5-1's that might start on one of those notes, and "I'll plug" it in.

Hopefully all this makes sense. I eventually want to get past any such "tricks", but for now it's helping me get through without stumbling too bad (but at a tempo not close the original speed).

[Todd Lynch]

Solid ideas/info all around.

[jazzguitarplay]

Yea Gutbeef, Agree with ya. i look at the major chords of the first two sections in B major resolving to E flat Major the chords linking them D 7th-G major-BFlat 7th dont have to be specifically outlined, then the next section goes from G Major back to B Major or the original tonic chord. You dont have to outline B flat Eflat or F sharp so much either, Just play in Gmajor resolving B Major Then once you hit the 2-5-1 sections, its a 2-5 in E flat, a 2-5-1 in G, a 2-5-1 in B major and a 2-5-1 in E flat, then the quick turn around measure which leads you back to the top of the form in B.Once I hit those 2-5-1's, its almost a easy relief from the busy first two sections.Thats the way I define it when Im playing it. Of course with arpeggios you can define every chord of the first two sections if you prefer or quick scaler ideas, chord tones, etc

[MrDoty]

Coltrane does it all on the original GS recording

modal, arp tones, II-V-I's

For instance, on the A-7 D7 Eb∆7, he uses Eb major scale runs w/some chromatics

Aside from all the cool stuff he uses, my favorite is when he sustains the right notes over the bar line through the changes so it doesn't just sound like he's "making the changes"

That has been the hardest thing for me lately is tying the ideas over the barlines
yea when i get into these tunes I feel almost trapped and its really hard to make any sustaining ideas because I dont know the changes well enough. but there is always more time to woodshed. 26-2 is a badass song by the way fellas check that one it has really hard changes as well, moments notice is my favorite really tough also. keep bringing the ideas fellas I like what you all have said so far.:dude

[gugertl]

To me the best way to tackle hard changes is to start out by playing one note per chord(the Scott Henderson way) and try to move up in either wholesteps or halfsteps. once you´ve nailed that, take two notes etc. this makes you have to connect lines, its a whole other concept than learning scales and arps for each cord wich can end up sounding rehersed.

[rockinrob]

Personally, the thing with Giant Steps is it sounds best when played like an exercise. I mean, that's what is, that's how Coltrane played it. If you want to know what he played look at Gennation's post- he's just stringing those arpeggios (I think of them as pentatonics) together 90% of the time, and they're mostly grouped in patterns of 4 notes. He plays nearly the same line on the G-Bb7-Eb-F#7-B section almost every chorus. Then when there's an Ebmaj or Bmaj for a whole bar he'll often just run the entire major scale.

I've seen different ways to approach it but to me the way Coltrane did it sounds best, especially at up tempos. To me any approach where you treat the V7 and I chords the same really kills the sound of the tune. It might allow you to keep up tempo wise, but it won't sound like you're getting anywhere as you're not making the changes.

One approach I've heard is to think of the 7th chord's relative minor, so instead of B-D7-G-Bb7-Eb you have B-Amin7-G-Fmin7-Eb. If you look that's chords descending a whole step each time. Then if you want to think lydian you could think Bbmin7-Amin7-Gbmin7-Fmin7-Dmin7. If you look at the chords long enough you'll see lots of relationships like this. Anyway, as far as sounds I don't really like that approach, but it may help when it comes to fingerings- just think of the min7 chords as min6 maybe?

Back when I was working on Giant Steps the main thing that was hard for me was how downbeat heavy it feels. It's very much the opposite of the way I play- I'm much more upbeat and accent heavy. That and the fact that you can't let up- you need to keep those lines going for it to sound right.

I think Countdown is a much better tune for learning the Coltrane changes. The thing about Giant Steps is the chords seem to come out of nowhere, where as on Countdown they make more sense (at least to me). I guess it's in the way they resolve. They're framed over Tune Up, so this shows you better how to use these changes over other tunes, ii-V-Is, etc. And for some reason playing these other kinds of lines (as in non-1-2-3-5 lines) sounds much better on this kind of tune than Giant Steps.

Anyway, here's a ii-V-I in C, right:

Dmin7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 |

So, here's the first part of the Coltrane thing:

Dmin7 Eb7 | Abmaj7....

Anyway, this first part was always easy for me to hear. It's the same as the Tadd Dameron turnaround:

Cmaj7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 | D7#11 (or Dmaj7#11) |

So you've got that, but it's the next part that's the problem:

Dmin7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 B7 | E7....

That's the part that's hard to hear, IMO. What I did when shedding this was to try and play regular lines over the first part, and then when I got to the B7-E7 run the 1-2-3-5 stuff. In fact that's something I still do as it builds a little bit of intensity. From there you're just a 7th chord away from home-

Dmin7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 B7 | E7 G7 | Cmaj7

Anyway, for me the problem with this stuff is you need to keep it up- it's much more of a chops oriented style than I'm into, and if I don't practice it regularly I loose it.

[gennation]

I understand it Ken. That's the first approach I took with GS...just play up the Key scale until it changes, then hit the closest note in the next Key and work your way through that Key scale until the next Key change...

albeit...I still take it very slowly even to this day ;)

[yZe]

I flippin' screwed UP !!!

I meant Fmi7 Bb7 Eb∆7 !! Not Ami-D7

sorry

[gennation]

Hey, where did Ken's post go???

[KRosser]

Hey, where did Ken's post go???

I deleted it.

[ToneGurus]

Hi folks,

I have a thread going in the Member Soundclips section with 3 different takes over my comping of Giant Steps if you're interested.

guitbeef was the first to jump in! I'd love to see more contributions over there.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=283786

Mike

[rockinrob]

Hi folks,

I have a thread going in the Member Soundclips section with 3 different takes over my comping of Giant Steps if you're interested.

guitbeef was the first to jump in! I'd love to see more contributions over there.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=283786

Mike


You tryin' to get me to put my foot where my mouth is? :p

I had the computer reformated a couple months ago and lost my multitrack programs in the process, so I have to re-install. But I'll try when I get time and give it a go...

[jzucker]

I did a giant steps in 4ths lesson on my site that might interest some folks:

http://sheetsofsound.net/lessons/index.htm

[Old Tele man]

...first, play the chords...then, once you're familiar with the chords & progressions/changes...finally, play the MELODY notes right out of the chords with minimal passing tones between chordal notes.

[ToneGurus]

You tryin' to get me to put my foot where my mouth is? :p

I had the computer reformated a couple months ago and lost my multitrack programs in the process, so I have to re-install. But I'll try when I get time and give it a go...That's the spirit Rob. One note worth thousand words!

Here's my humble attempt at a backing for anyone else who wants to play what they are trying to convey:

www.tonegurus.com/Kolltrane.mp3 (http://www.tonegurus.com/Kolltrane.mp3)

Cheers,

Mike

[MrDoty]

Hi folks,

I have a thread going in the Member Soundclips section with 3 different takes over my comping of Giant Steps if you're interested.

guitbeef was the first to jump in! I'd love to see more contributions over there.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=283786

Mike
great playing guys, some serious players here. time for me to practice.

[ToneGurus]

I just added a take from another player to to the members sounclips section.

Enjoy,

Mike