Noob question...

[bombdizzle]

I fear I'll be giving away my noobness here, but why in Tag's thread, would playing a D dorian over dominant vs. a C maj over tonic really do anything? You're still playing exactly the same notes unless my theory is mistaken... Isn't this basically saying "play exactly the same thing"? What I had been taught is to think in arpeggios, not scales or modes... Any input? Is it more about what target tones you're shooting for? Playing the same notes with a different approach? Like how Dorian and Nairod are the same letters but spell different words?

[MGT]

You're absolutely right (in a way) - the notes of D Dorian are the same as C Major/ionian. The difference is that the scale degrees are different for each mode relative to the chord the mode fits over (Dmin7 in the case of D Dorian). For example, the third degree of the C Major scale is E...with D Dorian, the E is the 2nd/9th. Like you said, going with chord tones (arpeggios) is never a bad choice for coming up with lines or phrases. I tend to try to play more to the melody (just the way I play) but have those sounds in my head from practicing scales & arpeggios.

I'm that Ken Rosser & some of the others can add much more usefull info on this subject!

[bombdizzle]

It just seems to me that the only reason to shift your thinking modally in this case would be to make it easier to hit the chordal tones, because even if you're playing C major still, the functions of the notes over the chords will change with the chords, they're all the same notes right?

Can someone explain why this is an important practice?



Edit: After jamming on it for a while, I can see how they lend themselves different flavors, but that's probably more due to the licks I know and the way I stupidly play within the scale shapes anyways, more than the power of the mode... Oh well, at least it's starting to sound pretty good.

[Clifford-D]

It just seems to me that the only reason to shift your thinking modally in this case would be to make it easier to hit the chordal tones, because even if you're playing C major still, the functions of the notes over the chords will change with the chords, they're all the same notes right?

Can someone explain why this is an important practice?



Edit: After jamming on it for a while, I can see how they lend themselves different flavors, but that's probably more due to the licks I know and the way I stupidly play within the scale shapes anyways, more than the power of the mode... Oh well, at least it's starting to sound pretty good.
You got it. The notes line up with the chords

Use D Dorian over G7 and get the upper extensions of the chord.
Play straight 8ths and look to see how intervals fall on chord tones.

You could think tension/resolution but you don't have to.

[gennation]

In this big world of music there are many theories, and you're using a couple that a lot of people use. Is one way right or wrong? Not if they give you "the same thing only different".

Some people play thinking/following the "just play in Key" idea, and some play thinking/following the "just play the right scale for the chord" idea. Using both gives you two approaches. That equals MORE approaches.

Try those two approaches and then find a few more. It's all part of YOUR playing and interpretations.

[KRosser]

I'm that Ken Rosser & some of the others can add much more usefull info on this subject!

It was Tag's thread. He'd be the best to explain it.

I'm with the OP - "D Dorian over the dominant, C Ionian over the tonic" makes no sense to me, from a practical standpoint. At least, I don't think that way.

The concept of improvisation - basically, "making it up as you go along" - is so personal, vague and ephemeral that sometimes trying to talk about it is like herding cats made of jello

You'll have to forgive me - sometimes it's easier to talk about than do. Sometimes it's easier to do than talk about. Right now, I just wanna "do"

[Lolaviola]

You'll have to know that the "chord tones" are different in the new mode.
How is this important?
Usually you will begin or end your line on a chord tone.
1; 3; 5; 7; 9 etc...
If you play a "C Maj" lick but begin and and on the "D" it begins to sound more like D Dorian...
Hope this helps

[bombdizzle]

You'll have to know that the "chord tones" are different in the new mode.
How is this important?
Usually you will begin or end your line on a chord tone.
1; 3; 5; 7; 9 etc...
If you play a "C Maj" lick but begin and and on the "D" it begins to sound more like D Dorian...
Hope this helps

I guess I understand why you would change them due to the sound being different if used correctly, but it kind of seems that it's just over complicating the issue by having to somehow thing in a "new" mode for each chord (or each function of chord as per Tag) when really playing the same thing, when you could just think of the whole thing as C major and just pay think as you play, i.e., don't play a Cmaj7 arp over your ii7 chord (unless you wanted to deliberately) and instead of just spitting out these memorized c major licks, just shoot for more interesting note choice. I can see the purpose of jumping to new modes if it's something like what Mr. Gennation was saying, and it's actually more purposeful, or if you're changing a key or wanting to hit altered notes, otherwise it just seems needlessly confusing, especially if you're playing a song that's changing keys really quickly, I know I can't think of different chunks within the key, much less find the key as fast as I wish I could. :horse oh well... :(

[Clifford-D]

It was Tag's thread. He'd be the best to explain it.

I'm with the OP - "D Dorian over the dominant, C Ionian over the tonic" makes no sense to me, from a practical standpoint. At least, I don't think that way.

The concept of improvisation - basically, "making it up as you go along" - is so personal, vague and ephemeral that sometimes trying to talk about it is like herding cats made of jello

You'll have to forgive me - sometimes it's easier to talk about than do. Sometimes it's easier to do than talk about. Right now, I just wanna "do"
Play on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

play on

:)

[GovernorSilver]

I'm not at the level of a Ken Rosser but I do find myself leaning more towards the older-school approach of using the melody of the tune as the starting point. Bill Frisell alluded to this in one of his interviews, when he observed that for some players you can't really tell if they're playing "So What" or "Impressions" - nearly identical chords, yet one has a very distinctive melody. Frisell also said he got this influence from Jim Hall.

Whether D Dorian over the dominant makes sense or not depends on the tune, does it not?

[KRosser]

I'm not at the level of a Ken Rosser

Me either. Who is?


but I do find myself leaning more towards the older-school approach of using the melody of the tune as the starting point. Bill Frisell alluded to this in one of his interviews, when he observed that for some players you can't really tell if they're playing "So What" or "Impressions" - nearly identical chords, yet one has a very distinctive melody. Frisell also said he got this influence from Jim Hall.


The way I see it - when we're improvising what we're being asked to do is make up a melody, be it lyrical or as abstruse as hell. What better place to start than the one you already have?

I tell my students all the time - many times, a melody will teach you a lot about soloing over that particular song

Whether D Dorian over the dominant makes sense or not depends on the tune, does it not?

Maybe. On it's face there's nothing wrong with it - dorian gives you some dominant extensions - 13, 9, #9. It's not the strongest way to represent those extensions IMHO.

But this is all just harmony. Harmony just gets you in the ballpark. You still have to learn how to play the game.

I just find it so much easier to think about harmony this way - there's chord tones, and there's everything else. I know all the chord tones in all 12 keys like the back of my hand, like having my multiplication tables memorized (actually, I know chord tones better than my multiplication tables)

Now, with that taken care of, we get to the real meat of it - 1) Making up melodies, which will involve rhythms, colors, gestures, space, shape, form, etc. 2) Engaging in interplay with the band, and everything that involves, which is a whole 'nuther 40 page thread. I'd much rather have my awareness there than harmonic formulas.

Joe Diorio told me something a long time ago - he said it would seem to him to be a good exercise to simplify improv to the point where one knows (or more appropriately, feels) from a 'musical color' standpoint how any of the 12 chromatic notes sounds against a given chord, and assuming all 12 of those colors are fair game.

It was like Joe opened a door and beckoned me to walk through it.

[mtlin]

I don't think Tag's idea is to play modes. He might have misrepresented himself a bit in that example. His approach, I believe, is based on lines, not modes. He has his dominate lines and his tonic lines. What he does is play any of his dominate lines over the ii, IV, V, or vii chords and any of his tonic lines over the I, iii, or vi chords. He mentions modes just for ease of exposition. That's what I got out of his post anyway.

[KRosser]

I don't think Tag's idea is to play modes. He might have misrepresented himself a bit in that example. His approach, I believe, is based on lines, not modes. He has his dominate lines and his tonic lines. What he does is play any of his dominate lines over the ii, IV, V, or vii chords and any of his tonic lines over the I, iii, or vi chords. He mentions modes just for ease of exposition. That's what I got out of his post anyway.

Yes, I understand that. I just don't want Fmaj7 to sound like a dominant chord in the key of C. I just want it to sound like Fmaj7 without any 'tonic' or 'dominant' bias at all.

[GovernorSilver]

I appreciate the clarification, Ken!

Treating the ii like a dominant chord reminds me of the Pat Martino book I once had. It did not survive the guitar book purge when I thought I was through with guitar forever (I thought I'd focus on keyboard at the time - that was when I had this notion of "mastering an instrument" and other thinking typical of youth).

Lately, I've been really getting into improvising solos in my head before playing them on the instrument. When away from instrument, I just solo in my head. When I have an instrument at hand, I improvise a phrase over a couple of chords at a time.

The notion of figuring out what notes will fit over a given progression first, then making up solos using those notes does not seem intuitive to me. I'd tried it on guitar before, and much later on the cello. The problem with this latter approach is that the solos I can make up in my head do utilize notes outside of the "preferred" set of notes. For example, in the New Real Book's arrangement of Autumn Leaves, some of my improvised solos have notes outside of the pitch set represented as Bb Major(Ionian)/G Minor (Melodic or Harmonic)/A Locrian/whatever. I'm not an expert on Jazz, but I've listened enough to it that I can make up solos in my head like a jazz vocalist. It seems like advanced jazz players get more into the theory after they've absorbed the jazz sonic literature to the point that they're bored with their own solos over, say, Autumn Leaves (even though to the rest of us, they may sound hip and all that) - they're looking for ways to freshen up their solos. Pretty much what drove guys like Diorio, Liebman, etc. to come up with their respective concepts.

I'm not at that level of advancement, so creating solos in the flavor of the jazz solos I've been listening to is fine for me. I should start documenting my progress over the tune I just started learning - "In Walked Bud". It'd be fun to get a "before" sonic picture of my jazz level by recording.