Taper of Tone Pot... suggestions?

[Shredcow]

I understand how taper of vol pot matters... and so I got myself some RS guitarworks pots... nice stuff, I enjoy the taper and its very good sounding.

However, I've been reading that the taper for tone pots don't really matter?

I'm asking this because I'm curious if I can change the taper on my current tone pot.

Right now, its a Dimarzio pot and the way it goes is like...

0 - 3: Huge leap
3 - 10: Even increase

I wonder if its possible to get a more... even? Taper out of the tone pot?

[HighwayStar]

Have you tried the StellarTone "pots"? I love these things.

http://www.stellartone.com

[Shredcow]

well, I used varitones before - while they provide great variety, I'm not looking for that.

I want to use my tone pot as a sort of... pseudo wah. So like, I'd hit a note then roll the tone pot up.. get that 'wah' going on. I like that.

[walterw]

the taper of tone pots matters very much. a linear taper tone pot will jump from bright to dark between 0 and 3, while an audio taper pot will have a useful range of tones from 1 to 10.

a larger value cap will give more of the "wah" effect, as it will be darker on 0, giving a greater contrast between 0 and 10.

normally, 250k pots are best for vintage single coils, 500k's for way overwound single coils, as well as p-90's or humbuckers.

[EADGBE]

well, I used varitones before - while they provide great variety, I'm not looking for that.

I want to use my tone pot as a sort of... pseudo wah. So like, I'd hit a note then roll the tone pot up.. get that 'wah' going on. I like that.
Probably a linear pot would work best for that.

[Jack Briggs]

I always use audio taper tone pots and prefer 250K for all pickups.

What you have to keep in mind is that the value of a pot is the total resistance so the higher the value the greater amount of turn on the pot shaft before a change is noticed.

[levelfrets]

the taper of tone pots matters very much. a linear taper tone pot will jump from bright to dark between 0 and 3, while an audio taper pot will have a useful range of tones from 1 to 10.

a larger value cap will give more of the "wah" effect, as it will be darker on 0, giving a greater contrast between 0 and 10.

normally, 250k pots are best for vintage single coils, 500k's for way overwound single coils, as well as p-90's or humbuckers.

I 100% agree with that. I also feel that linear taper pots are mostly useless in guitar electronics. I always throw em away and install audio taper. It makes a huge difference. I never understood why Gibson and others put Linear Volume controls in. They all jump to full volume from 0-3. Put audio taper in and it works correctly. :AOK

[Shredcow]

What you have to keep in mind is that the value of a pot is the total resistance so the higher the value the greater amount of turn on the pot shaft before a change is noticed.


I see.

So you are telling me that a 250k pot vs 500k pot... the 250k will show the difference faster?

[Shredcow]

I 100% agree with that. I also feel that linear taper pots are mostly useless in guitar electronics. I always throw em away and install audio taper. It makes a huge difference. I never understood why Gibson and others put Linear Volume controls in. They all jump to full volume from 0-3. Put audio taper in and it works correctly. :AOK

That, I understand - for volume pots.

But I need to know more about pots for tone controls...


Does linear/audio matter for tone controls?

[Old Tele man]

...in the "old" days there were many different types of pots:

AUDIO which mimiced human hearing curves
LOGARITHMIC which followed mathematical curve
LINEAR which, well, was 'straight' line

...today, there's basically just LOG and LIN. However, the good news is you can "adjust / tweak" the taper of any pot by selectively adding correctly 'sized' upper/lower trimming resistors (from top lug to wiper; and/or wiper to bottom lug), BUT you have to begin with a HIGHER resistance valued pot to begin with, because you're selectively "loading" it down when you adjust its taper.

[Jack Briggs]

...in the "old" days there were many different types of pots:

AUDIO which mimiced human hearing curves
LOGARITHMIC which followed mathematical curve
LINEAR which, well, was 'straight' line

...today, there's basically just LOG and LIN. However, the good news is you can "adjust / tweak" the taper of any pot by selectively adding correctly 'sized' upper/lower trimming resistors (from top lug to wiper; and/or wiper to bottom lug), BUT you have to begin with a HIGHER resistance valued pot to begin with, because you're selectively "loading" it down when you adjust its taper.


OTM,

I remember 3 tapers, too. People use to think I was crazy!:crazyguy

[levelfrets]

I guess I should have simply said, Audio taper works best for tone and volume controls IMO. I have never found linear taper pots to be effective in guitar electronics. Every time I have used linear taper in any recommended application for guitar, I have gotten negative results. Besides that you are going to find the audio taper much more readily available in the higher quality stuff too such as CTS and CGE brands. Just my own experience. Some things look good on paper, but how does it really sound? That's the question you should ask yourself.

[Jef Bardsley]

OTM,

I remember 3 tapers, too. People use to think I was crazy!:crazyguy
They still do, Jack, it's just some of us here are old enough to remember why!:BEER


I can't imagine someone liking linear taper tone pots. (But, it's been shown several times over I have a limited imagination.) Myself, I'd prefer even a steeper taper than "audio" on a tone pot - the top 5 numbers don't really do so much.

Shredcow, those Dimarzio's sound like they have a similar taper to the RS Superpots or the old Centralabs Gibson used in the 50's. Try regular CTS pots.

[EADGBE]

I see.

So you are telling me that a 250k pot vs 500k pot... the 250k will show the difference faster?I don't think so. A linear should. It seems to me that they don't do much until at the very end. And then it's very abrupt. It should be easier to get a simulated wah tone with one.

[Jack Briggs]

A 30% audio log taper pot will taper similarly whether 100K, 250K or 1 meg. The difference is the total resistance, or the breadth of that taper over the entire sweep of the pot. A 250K audio will give up the goods a little more readily than a 500K audio. Try it yourself and see.

[Structo]

the taper of tone pots matters very much. a linear taper tone pot will jump from bright to dark between 0 and 3, while an audio taper pot will have a useful range of tones from 1 to 10.

Don't shoot me if I'm wrong but I believe you have it backwards.
Linear pots have a gradual taper, that's why they are called linear.

[Shredcow]

Shredcow, those Dimarzio's sound like they have a similar taper to the RS Superpots or the old Centralabs Gibson used in the 50's. Try regular CTS pots.

Well, actually...

Comparing the taper of Dimarzio pots to RS superpots and CTS pots... in the context of a VOLUME control, this was what I found:

The Dimarzio has the smoothest taper. 0 - 10, just smooth all the way.

RS, from 0 - around 7, its smooth then 7 - 10, it jumps. Within those last 3 notches, its still smooth but its a very steep slope. ( man, I hate describing stuff like that! :))

CTS, similiar to the RS but... the taper from 0 - 7 while smooth, was too subtle. Then 7 - 10 was almost uncontrollable... too much too fast.

That said, the Dimarzio also has less torque - its easier to pinky the thing than the CTS & RS which I find I need to "wear" them out to make it physically easier to pinky them.

Sidetrack: The Dimarzios are really very very well made. Tight fitting (even the RS with the brass shaft was a shaky) brass shaft and ridiculously resistant to heat damage - I practiced soldering on one before and it worked and worked and worked.


Now, my tonepot to use decision was based on the way the Dimarzios functioned, smooth all the way, that I decided to use them for the tone control too. But it wasn't the case. Even more mind-boogling is why the abrupt taper happens on the opposite end, 0 - 3?!



Okay, so that said, I'm going to move out of the Dimarzio... and replace it with something else.

I'm not keen on the current run of CTS pots. The new ones with aluminium shafts are shaky unlike the older brass shaft ones.

Any other brands I can look into? Whats CGE?

[Old Tele man]

...LINEAR = 50% of R at 50% rotation
........LOG = 30% of R at 50% rotation

[Jack Briggs]

Actually, OTM - it's about 10% of TR at center on a 10% audio taper pot.

[walterw]

Well, actually...

Comparing the taper of Dimarzio pots to RS superpots and CTS pots... in the context of a VOLUME control, this was what I found:

The Dimarzio has the smoothest taper. 0 - 10, just smooth all the way.


Now, my tonepot to use decision was based on the way the Dimarzios functioned, smooth all the way, that I decided to use them for the tone control too. But it wasn't the case. Even more mind-boogling is why the abrupt taper happens on the opposite end, 0 - 3?!




just shooting in the dark here, but were you testing these pots with a bone-dry clean amp tone? if so, i suspect the dimarzio is actually a linear taper pot. if you were using a sound that was crunchy on 10 but cleaned up when the volume knob was turned down, i bet you would get a control that jumped between 0 and 3, and just got more distorted on up to 10. those other pots that jumped up between 7 and 10, however, would give a smooth transition from quiet clean to crunchy loud.

that's why i like linear tapers for bass volumes, because there isn't that kind of gain and compression in a good bass tone.

[walterw]

Don't shoot me if I'm wrong but I believe you have it backwards.
Linear pots have a gradual taper, that's why they are called linear.

BANG! (just kidding)

the pot is electrically linear, but in most audio applications, it's behavior doesn't sound that way to our ears. that's why audio taper pots are called that.

[Shredcow]

just shooting in the dark here, but were you testing these pots with a bone-dry clean amp tone? if so, i suspect the dimarzio is actually a linear taper pot. if you were using a sound that was crunchy on 10 but cleaned up when the volume knob was turned down, i bet you would get a control that jumped between 0 and 3, and just got more distorted on up to 10. those other pots that jumped up between 7 and 10, however, would give a smooth transition from quiet clean to crunchy loud.

that's why i like linear tapers for bass volumes, because there isn't that kind of gain and compression in a good bass tone.

Well, okay... I hope I'm on the right track as you...

Yeah, i was using a totally clean amp tone... I record my stuff line in too, via a Palmer, so its as clean as can be. Dry - no other effects added.

The Dimarzio didn't jump at all thru out its taper... just gradual smooth increase all the way when used as a volume pot.

Its just that, using this (the dimarizo) for a TONE pot... that's where the weird 0 - 3 bump comes in. I thought it would function the same manner as it did when used as a volume pot...

If, according to your description, the Dimarzio was a linear taper... how do linear tapers function in a tone control? 0 - 3 wham! Then gradual from 4 - 10?

[walterw]

If, according to your description, the Dimarzio was a linear taper... how do linear tapers function in a tone control? 0 - 3 wham! Then gradual from 4 - 10?

john phillips could hose you down with the electronics theory involved, but yes, that's exactly how linear tapers behave as tone controls. something to do with just being used as a variable resistor, rather than a voltage divider.

if you always use a dry sound, then linear volumes are the way to go. audio taper tones should be used regardless.

[Shredcow]

Interesting! So which tone pots would say... do the opposite? 0 - 7, gradual, then 7 - 10, wham!

Or say, just a straight gradual increment?



FYI, i now use the RS Superpots for volume (sorry to have to do this, just in case readers get confused) control... the 7-10 faster taper works wonders for getting fuzz/tube overdrive down to a clean-ish tone.

[Jack Briggs]

Reverse taper.

[Old Tele man]

...AUDIO (ie: suffix "A") is merely one 'type' of LOGARITHMIC taper, thus they are NOT the same...similar, yes, but not identical.

...so the function (Resistance vs. rotation) for each taper is:

LINEAR: R = RT*(%-rot)

.....LOG: R = RT*LOG(%-rot) = RT*(-0.4343)*LN(%-rot)

where:
R = Resistance at wiper, at %-of-rotation
RT = Total Resistance of pot, ie: 100% of rotation
%-rot = 0-to-100% rotation
LN = Natural (Napierian) Logarithm
LOG = Power of 10 logarithm

...thus, depending upon pot rotation (ie: normal or reverse) for LOG-taper, the R-value at 50% rotation will be either 30% of RT (normal "forward" taper) or 70% of RT ("reverse" taper), roughly:

...0%-rot. = RT*(0%)
.10%-rot. = RT*(5%)
.20%-rot. = RT*(10%)
.30%-rot. = RT*(15%)
.40%-rot. = RT*(22%)
.50%-rot. = RT*(30%) <--good reference point for identifying LOG vs. AUDIO tapers!
.60%-rot. = RT*(40%)
.70%-rot. = RT*(52%)
.80%-rot. = RT*(70%)
.90%-rot. = RT*(99%)
100%-rot. = RT*(100%)

[walterw]

john phillips could hose you down with the electronics theory involved, but...

or OTM could wash you right off the road and into the river.

also, a reverse taper pot will put you in the opposite direction, i.e., your tone pot will behave like a switch between 0 and 1/2, and do nothing from 1/2 to 10.

[Shredcow]

:messedup

But its all fine... this is what makes TGP such a great resource!

Players and Researchers alike! :dude

[Jack Briggs]

...AUDIO (ie: suffix "A") is merely one 'type' of LOGARITHMIC taper, thus they are NOT the same...similar, yes, but not identical.

...so the function (Resistance vs. rotation) for each taper is:

LINEAR: R = RT*(%-rot)

.....LOG: R = RT*LOG(%-rot) = RT*(-0.4343)*LN(%-rot)

where:
R = Resistance at wiper, at %-of-rotation
RT = Total Resistance of pot, ie: 100% of rotation
%-rot = 0-to-100% rotation
LN = Natural (Napierian) Logarithm
LOG = Power of 10 logarithm

...thus, depending upon pot rotation (ie: normal or reverse) for LOG-taper, the R-value at 50% rotation will be either 30% of RT (normal "forward" taper) or 70% of RT ("reverse" taper), roughly:

...0%-rot. = RT*(0%)
.10%-rot. = RT*(5%)
.20%-rot. = RT*(10%)
.30%-rot. = RT*(15%)
.40%-rot. = RT*(22%)
.50%-rot. = RT*(30%) <--good reference point for identifying LOG vs. AUDIO tapers!
.60%-rot. = RT*(40%)
.70%-rot. = RT*(52%)
.80%-rot. = RT*(70%)
.90%-rot. = RT*(99%)
100%-rot. = RT*(100%)


Yes, but this is for a 30% log taper, of which most are not used in passive guitar tone circuits. Those are normally 10% log taper. 30% taper more commonly found in amp controls.

[Old Tele man]

...BINGO! I'm pointing out that there are MORE than one LOG-taper pots out there (30% being MOST common, as you noted) with other tapers being used for other reasons (AUDIO vs. LOG, normal vs. REVERSE, etc.)

[Jack Briggs]

OTM,

For the purpose of this thread we're talking guitar tone pots, of which CTS are pretty much the standard these days. Their 500K and 250K audio taper are of 10% log. These are what AllParts and many others carry. I suspect even Gibson-packaged audio tapers are of the same log. I've had custom pots made by CTS and in the 450 series (the aforementioned carried by AllParts, etc.), the only options are linear, 10% audio and 10% reverse audio tapers. Other manufacturers produce other tapers, as amp builders will verify, but for guitar tone controls CTS are the standard.

[Jliu59]

I think AUDIO=LOG for pot tapers

[Old Tele man]

...uh, they don't make guitar tone pots, they make potentiometers having LOG, AUDIO and LINEAR tapers...which get sold to people who use them in all different kinds of electronics TV, radars, amplifiers and, yes, even guitars...but, there's no difference between a pot used in an amp vs. one used in a guitar, except which taper you choose to use...and where you use it...which is my point: people often use a pot having the wrong taper for the intended use!

...while, both LIN and LOG will "work," most players seem to prefer AUDIO taper tone pots, but certainly not always...those who "play" the pot for swells (ala' Gatton, etc.) usually prefer LIN-taper.

...and, again, the AUDIO-taper is just a version of LOG-taper.

[Jack Briggs]

...uh, they don't make guitar tone pots, they make potentiometers having LOG, AUDIO and LINEAR tapers...which get sold to people who use them in all different kinds of electronics TV, radars, amplifiers and, yes, even guitars...but, there's no difference between a pot used in an amp vs. one used in a guitar, except which taper you choose to use...and where you use it...which is my point: people often use a pot having the wrong taper for the intended use!

You know very well what I mean!


...while, both LIN and LOG will "work," most players seem to prefer AUDIO taper tone pots, but certainly not always...those who "play" the pot for swells (ala' Gatton, etc.) usually prefer LIN-taper.

Not me.

...and, again, the AUDIO-taper is just a version of LOG-taper.


Again.......see your own words.

[Old Tele man]

...FYI the "current" Epiphone Les Pauls use AUDIO-taper VOL and LINEAR-taper TONE controls.

...but, the "really" interesting info is that todays' pots are actually labeled exactly backwards from what they used to be (word of warning to those of you using "vintage" NOS pots!), ie:

TODAY: A = AUDIO, B = LINEAR, S = mod.LINEAR
OLDIES: A = LINEAR, B = LOG/AUDIO, F = ANTILOG