Bass Wattage Basics [Archive]

PUCKBOY99

09-06-2007, 01:07 PM

Excuse me if this has been done before...

I'm getting into some bass playing & might be looking into grabbing an amp & I'm curious as to the astronomical wattage ratings on bass amps.

Now, I know a 300watt guitar amp would be MONSTROUS, but why is it not such a big deal in the bass world?

Is it a frequency kinda thing?

I used to have a 30w bass combo that I used to mess around with & it was pretty loud in a practice setting.

What would be a good area to start out with, but also get along in most settings.

:BEER

MuseCafeChris

09-06-2007, 01:31 PM

With bass, it's not a volume thing, it's a headroom thing. It takes a lot more power to belt out those bass frequencies. And distortion/clipping isn't desireable with bass as it is with guitar.

I had a 200w SWR Workingman's bass head for a while and it was definitely loud enough, but it sounded like crap, partially due to the lack of headroom, partially due to the fact that it just wasn't a very good-sounding amp LOL! I'd recommend 300w or higher.

Y-roc?

09-06-2007, 01:41 PM

Low frequencies are heard as being softer in our pyschoacoustic wiring for some reason. Therefore, you have to crank up the wattage to allow a bass sound to compete with the guitars and drums.

Also, I recommend at least a 100+ Watt amp to start with. You'll need at least that to get over the drums in a practice-room setting, and even then you'll find that the sound is strained. But 100W won't cut it at a gig (especially an open-air gig) unless you mic the amp and send it through the PA. For house parties (inside a living room, for example) you'll need at least 200W. I have a 300W amp that is plenty loud for indoor house parties, but dies as soon as you take it outside. Anything bigger than a house party situation, like a club, will require much more wattage unless you plan to mic the amp. That's when a nice 4-10" half stack (or bigger)comes in handy with 500+++ watts.

Whatever you use your amp for, I believe the general rule is: if you have to turn up your amp more than half way to be heard, you need a bigger (more wattage, bigger speaker) amp. Behringer makes great high-wattage amps for cheap. Just be careful because they don't match their speaker rating to the watts. For example, my Behringer Ultrabass BXL3000A puts out 300W but the speakers are rated for 200W. In other words, you will blow your speakers if you turn up too much. Fortunately for me, I never have to go more than 10 or 11 o'clock for the practice sessions and house parties I play at.

Hope this helps.

PUCKBOY99

09-06-2007, 01:59 PM

THANKS fellas....

Another question: 2x10, 4x10, 2x12, 1x15, 1x18

2x10 & 4x10 = punchier as opposed to the 1x18 = big & fat ?

SS vs tube???

Tube preamp + SS power amp ??

:D

tkozal

09-06-2007, 02:25 PM

ss vs tube will depend on what sound you want. I find that many tube amps aren't "quick" enough for fast fingerstyle, unless you start playing the amp more than the bass....

I use solid state, and a 4x10 and a 1x15, as needed. the 4x10 with tweeter is punchier and crisper than the 1x15, which is more like buttah...

300 to 500 watts is pretty much the starting point for live rock, 200 if you play quiet. I have a 200 watt 12 incher I use for jazz and folk gigs...

so when I went to buy a guitar amp years ago, I figured I needed wattage, being used to 500 watts and all. I ended up (this is over 10 years ago), with an EXTREMELY LOUD Fender Deluxe 112 plus, 90 watts....LOUD!!!!

PUCKBOY99

09-06-2007, 02:30 PM

I've been combing the local Craigslist.....

Ampeg SVT-3 Pro + Ampeg Pro 410 HLF = Winner or loser ???

thesteve

09-06-2007, 02:53 PM

in addition to your head not hearing low frequencies as well (the aforementioned psycho-acoustic effect), from what I understand it takes more power to efficiently push a low-frequency signal to the same volumes as a high frequency signal.

The SVT-3 Pro + Pro 410HLF sounds like it could be a great deal. It really just boils down to the price and what you want. If I read the specs properly, you'll be pushing upwards of 450W into that 410, which would be a ton of headroom for many players.

PUCKBOY99

09-06-2007, 03:05 PM

WAY more than I probably need right now, but for the used cost + being local, might be a great deal.

The Golden Boy

09-06-2007, 03:23 PM

Might be way more than you think you need now- but that's just about anything you'll really need- unless you would be playing shows without PA support.

No reason you shouldn't be able to hear that on top of most any band. If you do have trouble, lift the cab off the ground, closer to ear level.

I, too, suggest 300w SS as the minimum 'being heard'+'head room' power rating.

I love 15s, 10s are generally too stiff sounding to me. I like my heads clean and my cabs grindy.

Y-roc?

09-06-2007, 03:58 PM

Yes, yes, you need more wattage to boost lower frequencies up to the same dBs as higher sounds. Thanks for clarifying everyone.

You can't go wrong with Ampeg...

My single 15" sounds great: warm, round, and even responsive to high frequencies. I do find myself wishing for some 10"s, though, just to bring out that pointed presence that you need sometimes. 10"s have a quicker response, too, but were talking milliseconds. I can't complain with my single 15."

If I could by something right now, I'd pair up a single 15" with two 10"s. Or, if I needed to go louder, I'd pair a single 18" and four 10"s.

No experience with tube amps, sorry.

The Golden Boy

09-06-2007, 05:17 PM

What I love about "stereo" heads is that you can control how much volume is going to individual cabinets.

I believe more volume comes out of a 4x10 than a 1x15- and the 4x10 can handle more power- when I do use 2 cabs- I use the 15 for tone and the 10s for volume. So generally I'll be sending around 25% more power to the 4x10 cab.

Antero

09-06-2007, 11:23 PM

Low frequencies are heard as being softer in our pyschoacoustic wiring for some reason. Therefore, you have to crank up the wattage to allow a bass sound to compete with the guitars and drums.This isn't entirely accurate. The actual reason behind the higher wattage of bass amps is simply that

-it requires more energy to reproduce a low-frequency sound wave than a high frequency, for the same db volumes

-bass amps are (often) striving for clean reproduction without distortion, while guitarists often want to be driving the power tubes even when playing basically "clean."

The amount of power you need depends a good deal on what sort of sound you're going for and what sort of amp design you're working with. The bassist in my band uses an Ampeg B100R (which is only 100 watts) and has no problem being heard in small clubs, but he's going for more of an old-school Entwhistle vibe with a lot of treble and likes to push the amp and speaker, rather than some sort of clean-and-pure sound.

PUCKBOY99

09-07-2007, 08:22 AM

Anyone using a preamp/power amp type set up?

I was thinking of grabbing a Sansamp RBI or even the PSA-1, which has 10 bass presets...or even a Bass POD XT Live & grabbing a power amp for a small rack.

IDEALLY, I'd like to grab a PSA-1. I used to have one & the guitar pre's are killer, so I could use it for both guitar & bass...but used, they don't pop up very often & I'm not paying full price for one. :D

A local guy is selling a MINT RBI.....anyone try it ?

I'm kind of leaning towards the POD, giving me the self contained floorboard for headphone practice & leaving more room for a racked power amp.

THOUGHTS?????? :BEER

cwdaniel

09-07-2007, 05:51 PM

PUCKBOY99

09-07-2007, 06:11 PM

Thanks man :BEER

Actually, I came to my senses & remembered...I HATE PODs :D

Gonna grab the local dudes SansAmp RPM (RBI was sold, but it's basically the same unit, only replacing the PRESENCE feature with a sweepable Mid switch, which seems more usable :AOK).

Keep my eyes open for a SansAmp PSA-1 ...GREAT bass patches & I loved a lot of the guitar patches when I had one.

Add a TECH21NYC Power Engine 400 200 transparent watts per side/stereo...

Thru an Ampeg Pro 4x10 HLF another local dude is selling cheap-cheap :D............add a 1x15 if needed/wanted later

http://www.tech21nyc.com/images/psa1_1_image.jpg
http://www.tech21nyc.com/images/rpm_image.jpg
http://www.tech21nyc.com/images/pe400_300_image.jpg
http://www.ampeg.com/products/pro/pr410hlf/images/PR-410HLF_LG.jpg

http://www.tech21nyc.com/

I'm getting giddy :AOK

mindseye

09-08-2007, 12:28 PM

Those PSA1's are kick A$$!!!!!

but imho nothing beats an Ampeg SVT ((300 watts of all tube goodness)) threw an SVT 8x10 cab..........the weight sucks major balls thouh! but the tone makes up for it!

Another thing to remember 300w of SS power is not the same as 300w of tube power, 300w of tubes will eat 300w of SS for lunch!!

Also check out some bass cabs with 12's in them! im really starting to like them.....there's a Mesa 4x12 in my near future!

thesteve

09-08-2007, 01:28 PM

Another thing to remember 300w of SS power is not the same as 300w of tube power, 300w of tubes will eat 300w of SS for lunch!!I hear this a lot, but I've also heard from many sources that the Acoustic 360/361 combination was good for both a massively huge and loud sound...and it was only rated at 200W SS. Heck, it was good enough for Jaco and John Paul Jones.

Honestly, maybe I just need to experience an Ampeg SVT or Mesa 400 for myself, but I've never been fully convinced of the whole "tube watts are so much louder" argument.

jzucker

09-08-2007, 02:27 PM

mindseye

09-08-2007, 02:56 PM

my 5lb markbass LMII will eat an SVT for lunch and spit out its tube guts. SVT's are great if you like a thuddy, muddy bass tone.

LOL!

Old Tele man

09-08-2007, 03:36 PM

RULE-of-THUMB: Bass amp power (wattage) should be minimum of TWICE (2X) or greater than combination of the guitar amps powers.

John Phillips

09-08-2007, 04:08 PM

RULE-of-THUMB: Bass amp power (wattage) should be minimum of TWICE (2X) or greater than combination of the guitar amps powers.
Four times is closer. You've not only got to allow for the extra energy needed to produce the same apparent volume an octave lower, the bass amp will normally have to remain clean when the guitar amps can be producing up to double their clean power when distorted.

I'm currently using a 200W solid-state bass amp with a 1x15" or 1x15"+1x10" cab to match a 30W tube guitar amp with a 2x12" cab and usually a solid-state guitar combo somewhere in the 1x12" 50W region (it varies). Cabinet efficiency is probably roughly similar. I don't even mind a slightly overdriven bass sound either... and I am pushing it hard. I could probably double it again to keep a truly clean sound. I was using a 400W tube bass amp for a while, and I didn't feel that was overkill.

Tubes aren't necessarily that much louder... it depends on the quality of the amp. Something like an old Acoustic or earlier Trace Elliot will give a tube amp of the same power a close run.

BTW, since they were mentioned much earlier... don't buy a Behringer. Bad-sounding and unreliable.

tkozal

09-09-2007, 08:05 AM

my 5lb markbass LMII will eat an SVT for lunch and spit out its tube guts. SVT's are great if you like a thuddy, muddy bass tone.

+1000 :BEER

A LMII ...Thats what I haul around now....more than does the job..plus it is not much to actually haul....

mainsale

09-09-2007, 08:51 AM

I've got a SVT-VR and it's capable of yielding rich, warm, three dimensional tones that SS amps just cannot touch.

jzucker

09-09-2007, 09:03 AM

I've got a SVT-VR and it's capable of yielding rich, warm, three dimensional tones that SS amps just cannot touch.

And I feel the same about the markbass SS amp. The SVT can't touch it for transparancy, clarity and low end. The SVT is great for classic rock where a thuddy, muddy low end is part of the classic sound but try to get Richard Bona, Tony Grey or Matt Garrison's stuff to voice properly through it. Ain't gonna happen. I find that the SS amps can get the warm and muddy sound of the old tube amps easier than the tube amps can get the clear transparancy of the SS amps. Plus, my amps is 5lbs and the size of a cigar box and costs $600.

I love Fuchs and Two Rock for guitar but have not heard a tube bass amp that can touch the Markbass, Epifani or Euphonic Audio SS amps...

The Golden Boy

09-10-2007, 02:07 PM

And I feel the same about the markbass SS amp. The SVT can't touch it for transparancy, clarity and low end. The SVT is great for classic rock where a thuddy, muddy low end is part of the classic sound but try to get Richard Bona, Tony Grey or Matt Garrison's stuff to voice properly through it. Ain't gonna happen. I find that the SS amps can get the warm and muddy sound of the old tube amps easier than the tube amps can get the clear transparancy of the SS amps.

I don't know about an SS amp getting a tube amp sound.

I don't know about a tube amp getting an SS sound.

There's a whole 'nuther character to sound than what either amp brings- it's a matter of what your preferences are.

From as much as I've dicked with the Markbass stuff- it seems "similarly" voiced to my SWR. I can tame down the SS brightness and clank- but I can't get the "breath" and the organic-ness, nor the warmth and the fullness that comes out of a decent tube head. If you've got decent control of the pre tube, you can get some "sag" but not like with a tube pre and power section.

A high wattage SS amp will probably be able to push more real low end- but don't mistake that low end for "warmth."

jzucker

09-10-2007, 02:22 PM

The term warmth is meaningless here. It's too subjective. I can tell you that markbass sounds absolutely nothing like SWR. If you don't know how to use the VLE and VPE controls, you probably will not get good results out of the markbass. It's kind of an unfortunate user-interface design that those two controls need to be off to get the flat sound of the amp.

I agree that you can't get sag out of a SS bass amp but frankly, unless you're trying to emulate Jack Bruce's tone from Live Cream, you don't want Sag in a bass amp. Again, if you're playing classic rock, the SVT is a great choice if you've got roadies but for modern gigs playing a variety of styles, the markbass smokes it in every way. Save your back, your tone and your wallet and get a markbass and an epifani NL410 or 310 and you'll be set.

I don't know about an SS amp getting a tube amp sound.

I don't know about a tube amp getting an SS sound.

There's a whole 'nuther character to sound than what either amp brings- it's a matter of what your preferences are.

From as much as I've dicked with the Markbass stuff- it seems "similarly" voiced to my SWR. I can tame down the SS brightness and clank- but I can't get the "breath" and the organic-ness, nor the warmth and the fullness that comes out of a decent tube head. If you've got decent control of the pre tube, you can get some "sag" but not like with a tube pre and power section.

A high wattage SS amp will probably be able to push more real low end- but don't mistake that low end for "warmth."

tkozal

09-10-2007, 02:38 PM

be like me..Manhattan, no car...a SVT! You just be s***ting me...Markbass all the way...

tubes aint fast enough, unless I want to be like Jack Bruce, which I haven't for like 15 years or so now, maybe 25...

The Golden Boy

09-10-2007, 03:35 PM

The term warmth is meaningless here. It's too subjective. I can tell you that markbass sounds absolutely nothing like SWR. If you don't know how to use the VLE and VPE controls, you probably will not get good results out of the markbass. It's kind of an unfortunate user-interface design that those two controls need to be off to get the flat sound of the amp.

I agree that you can't get sag out of a SS bass amp but frankly, unless you're trying to emulate Jack Bruce's tone from Live Cream, you don't want Sag in a bass amp. Again, if you're playing classic rock, the SVT is a great choice if you've got roadies but for modern gigs playing a variety of styles, the markbass smokes it in every way. Save your back, your tone and your wallet and get a markbass and an epifani NL410 or 310 and you'll be set.

Like I said, for whatever I dicked with the amp- around half an hour between a Markbass 6 or 8 x10 or an SWR 1x15 with an Aerodyne J- it seemed "similarly" voiced to the SWR. No, I don't know how to use the VLE and VPE controls, but I dicked with every knob on that panel. I'm not saying the Markbass isn't a good amp, just that it's a SS amp and it has the characteristics of a SS amp.

As far as warmth being subjective- yes and no- in any SS amp I've played, I've never gotten the tube amp warmth out of any of them. For me- that's generally been a good thing. I'm a SS bass amp guy all the way. I'm the dummy that's going to be trying to get a Mesa Bass 400+ to sound like a SS amp. The way I hear and feel it it, it's like the SS sound goes through you. Tube gets absorbed by you.

mindseye

09-10-2007, 04:25 PM

SVT's work for me, Markbass amps dont........why do some feel like they have to hate on others sh!t , fuk that if we all played "brand x" amp music would be boreing!

Play what works for you.......just because "brand x" dosent work for you dosent mean its garbage

I LOVE TUBES.......lots of them glowing bastards!

AND OMG i play Hamer basses!!!!!!!!

jzucker

09-10-2007, 04:45 PM

SVT's work for me, Markbass amps dont........why do some feel like they have to hate on others sh!t

Didn't you do exactly that when you posted that nothing beats an SVT? ;)

mindseye

09-11-2007, 02:46 PM

Your right, im wrong, lets leave it alone............anyone have a MB amp for sale? :)

bard2dbone

09-13-2007, 04:04 AM

You're always going to need way more power than you expect to use to get a clean/clear sound.

But it gets stranger than that.

There is an unattainable Holy Grail concept in bass gear. You will eventually find yourself wanting an amp rig that is simultaneously 1) Low, 2) Loud, and 3) Light.

You will (most likely) not find one that is all three.

A good, very high powered SS amp into something like a Schroeder 1210 (or two) will get you into the neighborhood. But you won't need that for a while. For now you can do really well with a 4x10 and 400 or 500 Watts pushing it. The Sansamp pre you were talking about would be a great choice. But then you'll need a fairly serious power amp to go with it.

The Little Mark II that got mentioned a few times here is a great example of the 'good, very high powered SS amp' that I was referring to. It's not my favorite. But it's really hard to beat for the price.

Finding the right cabs to go with it will be much harder. A 4x10 is a great start. But I'm looking for a compact 1x15 and a 1x12.

Good luck with the bass. And for Gods sake learn to be a Bass Player, not a guitar player who plays bass. Those are two very different approaches, and once you've learned enough to tell the difference you will understand just how important a difference it is.