Collings/Martin: not understanding

[doublee]

I have been A/B'ing all day a 2004 D1A and my '89 Martin D35 WITHOUT scalloped braces (as you know), and do not HEAR the 1500$ price differential for used. Both have identical new strings. The Collings has somewhat better defined highs, but its like a 5% difference. The intonation is better, also yes, but isnt that a function of the bridge, meaning the '35 just needs a tweak?

help me out there,

e

[pedalcr8z]

I've owned both and believe me you're just scratching the surface.......yes the highs are clearer on the Collings but so is the individual note to note separation as well as individual string amplitude (voulme) is FAR more even on the Collings. I also percieve the Collings as having a grand piano type of bottom end...very authoritive and much longer sustaining......in fact sustain is far superior on the Collings across the whole spectrum. It is NOT my intent to slam Martin. If they spent the extra time that Collings spends tweaking each and every instrument then perhaps they would be alot closer if not dead even. You pay more for the boutique brands ie., Collings, Goodall, Lowden, Olson, Santa Cruz but you also get what you pay for plain and simple, instruments that sound better UNIFORMLY as opposed to every hundredth instrument form a Taylor or Martin type company as being an exceptional instrument by pure coincidance!

[Mondoslug]

Hey I like all the gourmet stuff myself...but a Martin Is a Martin.

[slowburn]

I don't think you can lump taylor in a category of builders that only makes 1 good guitar out of 100 by chance...

[doublee]

Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that its just getting used to different instruments, ie a little different technique adjustment could make up the difference possibly, and save a grand? I dont know, my '89 D35 certainly tops very few favorites list but I just didnt hear $1500 differnce, which I fully expected having read all the forums for weeks on this topic. I therefore wonder that if one wants a mahogany/Ad/Dread that the GE-18 isnt the way to go for a thousand less?

[pedalcr8z]

I don't think you can lump taylor in a category of builders that only makes 1 good guitar out of 100 by chance...

There is a difference between a "good guitar" and an exceptional guitar. I've owned several Taylors FWIW. Never implied that only 1 in a hundred is good. My point was that 1 in a hundred is exceptional. EVERY Olson and EVERY Lowden and EVERY Santa Cruz to my ears sounds exceptional. As I stated I meant no slams to ANY name be it Taylor or Martin. All I was trying to state is that NOBODY can build THOUSANDS of exceptional guitars in a year. This is why I choose small independent luthiers no different that choosing a handmade high end bicycle craftfed for your personal measurements versus "production" bicycles. Assembly line guitars are assembly line guitars.....good but not the best by any means.

[riffmeister]

but I just didnt hear $1500 differnce

If you are driven by $$ considerations, then by all means get the Martin.

[Mondoslug]

I've played non exceptional Collings & Santa Cruzs'. I like those guitars alot.

I've also played exceptional & non exceptional Martins etc.

[DavidE]

I played a handmade guitar by a luthier who gets huge bucks for his guitars. It was a total dog in my opinion. Dead sounding. Ugh.

Then again, the best acoustic guitar I ever played was a Monteleone and I A/B'd that with a pre-war D45. Very different guitars, but I preferred the Monteleone in every respect except historical significance and monetary value.

[6120]

It is personal prefence, but I can say I have owned over a dozen Collings , dating back to the time Bill built them for Gruhn, and don't own any anymore. To me the trebles are strident and harsh. The voicing of the guitar is not for me. I like the Martin low end "Whomp". Listen to any old Neal Young or CSN for some definative tones. Only Martin can get you the Martin sound. Granted the build quality of a Collings is second to none, but in my opinion, they are overbuilt. The neck joint is bolted in(Martin is not) ang they are a little heavier. I also owned one of the first D1A varnish and sold that because it got beat by my Martin D1A. Collings cannot be beat for cutting through in a bluegrass jam, and pretty much every guitar they make is perfect but they do not try to be exact sonic copies of Martins . Nor does Maritn try to be Collings.

[jedistar]

I don't think you can compare brand to brand from a tone perspective - but you can from a quality of finish, consistency perspective.

If you are going to compare a Collings and a Martin u have to compare a similar spec machine. Martin makes a lot of different spec rosewood dreadnoughts and they all sound 'different'.
D28 - modern position non scalloped top braces,
HD28 - scalloped modern position,
D35- different width non scalloped modern position,
HD28V - forward shifted (pre war position) scalloped..
D28 Marquis as per HD28V but with Adirondack top.

Martin selects top timbers based on cosmetics not tone (although there might be exceptions for the custom or bling models)

The smaller builders (Collings, Bourgeois) tend to make a smaller number of models and usually copy the prewar spec (ie HD28V or Marquis).

No point comparing a pre war Martin copy with a D28 or D35 - construction is different.

Gets more complicated of course if there is a significant age difference...By all accounts 20 year old guitars sound 'better' due to the opening up phenomenon...

It would be interesting to compare 89 D35 to a 200+ D35 - would expect a difference.....

[davess23]

Just what is $1500 worth of difference, anyway?

Martin builds a lot more guitars than Collings, and thus achieves some economies of scale in sourcing materials and in manufacturing costs, so part of the price differential is in the relatively higher cost per unit for the smaller shop. Also, Collings guitars get more individual attention during the build process than production Martins do, including finer "adjustment" of each instrument's tonal characteristics.

Sounds to me like you've got two pretty good guitars there, not all that alike in their wood or their construction despite the fact that they're both dreads: aren't you comparing mahogany to rosewood, for one thing? The fact that they don't sound all that different is probably more a function of similar body style and size, and just plain coincidence, than anything else. Steel string flattop guitars of similar shapes and sizes tend to sound more or less alike...heresy, maybe, but generally true. Tone freaks like to argue about stuff that the rest of the world doesn't notice.

Just for the record, about 13 years ago I replaced a D-35 I'd had for twenty years with a Collings SJ, and I've never regretted doing so. But hey, it's just a guitar.

[Ogre]

The best new Martin I have played was a D18 Authentic. The price was a sobering $5800. Collings guitars are initially very bright, but they do mellow over time. I like their dreads the best. Santa Cruz guitars remind me of old Martins. They are a lighter build, and very even across the tone spectrum.

[gh1]

I have been A/B'ing all day a 2004 D1A and my '89 Martin D35

and do not HEAR the 1500$ price differential

help me out there,

e
Seems simple to me -- if you don't hear a difference (and assuming both play to your satisfaction) save yourself the $1500!

Who cares why -- let your ears be the final judge.

_____
gh1

[Plan9FOS]

There are definately some non-scalloped guitars that for what ever reason sing and are clear and well defined. Orrin Star plays one of them ... but Collings is known as the most consistent high end builder today, and the value of used Collings guitars keeps going up every year. Martin, maybe not.

So if you have the cash go for the Collings :)


Personally I play anything that sounds good to me, regardless of brand ... unfortunately, that only includes very high end stuff :(. The thunky bass on most non-scalloped guitars makes me ill. Way too much fundamental tone, no harmonics ... very uninspiring ....

[Grun]

Seems simple to me -- if you don't hear a difference (and assuming both play to your satisfaction) save yourself the $1500!

They're your ears. If you can't tell the difference, go with that. Have someone else play them and listen, or do a recording comparison and let us know what you think.

[smiert spionam]

Fortunately, there are a lot of great builders, and guitars for most tastes. I'd agree with the general observation that Collings are impeccably built. I'm among those for whom their voicing isn't quite my cup of tea -- but they're beautiful instruments for some.

The boutique builder that most speaks to me is Santa Cruz -- in particular their 000 12-fret, slope dreads, and the H-13 are often wonderful.

Though I'd agree that in general the best small builders have surpassed the Martin standard line, I've played a couple of recent Martins that show they're really taken the lessons of Collings/Santa Cruz/etc. to heart. I've played a Marquis D-28 and a 000-18GE recently that were really remarkable. Great guitars.

[Dave Orban]

I've owned a couple of very good Martins, Santa Cruz, Taylors, Lowdens, and Collings guitars, in addition to some 40s and 50s Gibsons. I still have the Collings and the Gibsons.

Let your ears be your guide. ;)

[royd]

While I agree with the statements here that the smaller builders build much higher percentages of exceptional guitars and that Martins/Taylors/etc. size companies can build very good instruments they are less likely to produce stellar ones. Still, Martin/Taylor/etc. do produce some guitars that are stellar. Perhaps the D35 you are speaking about was one that just happened to have everything go right and it is an amazing guitar... so as was said, let your ears be your guide.

[Peppy]

Fortunately, there are a lot of great builders, and guitars for most tastes. I'd agree with the general observation that Collings are impeccably built. I'm among those for whom their voicing isn't quite my cup of tea -- but they're beautiful instruments for some.

The boutique builder that most speaks to me is Santa Cruz -- in particular their 000 12-fret, slope dreads, and the H-13 are often wonderful.

Though I'd agree that in general the best small builders have surpassed the Martin standard line, I've played a couple of recent Martins that show they're really taken the lessons of Collings/Santa Cruz/etc. to heart. I've played a Marquis D-28 and a 000-18GE recently that were really remarkable. Great guitars.

Pretty much my experience. Never could bond with any Collings but I have ended up with two Santa Cruz. Different ears, different tuning gears.

[JPERRYROCKS]

You're A/B ing a 3 year old guitar with one 18 years old. Maybe the D35 has opended up quite a bit. Guitars are unique and after almost 20 years, the D35 might be quite broken in.

It's hard to compare guitars like that which such a difference in age and then say one isn't worth the money.

[doublee]

[QUOTE You're A/B ing a 3 year old guitar with one 18 years old. Maybe the D35 has opended up quite a bit. Guitars are unique and after almost 20 years, the D35 might be quite broken in.

[doublee]

"You're A/B ing a 3 year old guitar with one 18 years old. Maybe the D35 has opended up quite a bit. Guitars are unique and after almost 20 years, the D35 might be quite broken in..."

Yes absolutely true. I dont particulary happen to love the D35 but got it very cheap. I was surprised though that the difference isnt more pronounced, given that the 35 doesnt even have scalloped braces... but it IS alot older. The Collings did have perfect intonation which is a major plus, and there is some more clarity throughout. The fine finish details dont really interest me that much (the beautifully polished nut, the sharp corners, that sort of thing) but its a fine guitar no question, but didnt grab me. The search goes on...

[smiert spionam]

The D35 doesn't have scalloped braces, but they are skinnier than a D28, which makes it (often) have some of that wide open voice. But, mostly... yup, every guitar is different, and ages differently.

[doublee]

yes the '35 isnt bad at all on the low strings, and its an overlooked value maybe, but tough on the bar's up the neck though. For you old timers out there, i wonder what Taj played on Giant Steps etc? I know some of it is 12 string and resonator etc but the 6 string sounds pretty good to me,

[danfisher]

you guys are making this way too complicated... when you know.. you know..

cost, reputation, age, materials, ect.. all words. if it sings to you and you like the song.. make it yours.. if it doesn't.. keep looking.

[starfish]

It is personal prefence, but I can say I have owned over a dozen Collings , dating back to the time Bill built them for Gruhn, and don't own any anymore. To me the trebles are strident and harsh. The voicing of the guitar is not for me. I like the Martin low end "Whomp". Listen to any old Neal Young or CSN for some definative tones. Only Martin can get you the Martin sound. Granted the build quality of a Collings is second to none, but in my opinion, they are overbuilt. The neck joint is bolted in(Martin is not) ang they are a little heavier. I also owned one of the first D1A varnish and sold that because it got beat by my Martin D1A. Collings cannot be beat for cutting through in a bluegrass jam, and pretty much every guitar they make is perfect but they do not try to be exact sonic copies of Martins . Nor does Maritn try to be Collings.

Sadly, I think I'm coming to the same conclusion. I bought a D2HSB back in April and while it is a superb playing and well-built instrument, it is strident and just can't grab the Martin wallop of CSN and Neil Young. I hate to sell the guitar so soon after buying it, and it wasn't cheap. But it may not be the sound for me. It cuts, great balance, great note separation. No Martin bass and warmth. I've been playing for 22 years and should have done my homework more carefully. :(

An HD-28v or Mad Adi D-28 Marquis may be in my future if I can bear to sell the beautiful Collings and get on with it...

[Dave Orban]

you guys are making this way too complicated... when you know.. you know..
Well, this IS the Gear Page... :rolleyes:

[alanbass1]

Names on a headstock and price should be used as a guide for choosing which guitars you want to try. Once you have narrowed down your search for things to try, then all that should go out of the window and you should be looking for the guitar that blows you away as soon as you play it.

It really sounds to me that you haven't yet found the guitar that is for you. If you are questioning either guitar I would suggest keeping your money and continue your hunt. Once you pick up an acoustic that's right for you, you will know well enough.

[JohnnyMac1]

I own several high end martins and taylors but also own one Goodall. The Goodall always gets to come out and play. I do also though have to mention My custom all flamed Mahogany Taylor that is an exceptional guitar in its own right. The mastergrade koa/cedar Goodall just has it all right now for Me.

[57gold]

Because they sat in their cases once Bill Collings made my D42 Cutaway in Brazilian/Adirondack.

The Martin was a beauty, something I wished for since a 13 year old. The local music store's owner's 18 year old son ordered a D45 back in 1971. His Dad opened the case while I was in the store (I'd go their once a week after my guitar lesson just to look) and hollered, "who ordered this?" as he looked at the invoice. The son said he always wanted to see one in person and got an earful from his Dad that there was no one that lived in our town who would spend $2,000 on a guitar. The guitar hung with a DO NOT TOUCH sign for a very long time. Neil Young, Stephen Stills....all had one of these beauties. It was a time when there were Martins, Gibsons and Guilds and a Martin was the stuff.

Had instrument set up by Roger Sadowsky who commented on its great tone.

Visited Mr. Bill in TX when he was getting started and oredered an instrument after playing three chords on a mahogany D18 style guitar he was shipping that day. Now own 4 Collings acoustics. The D45 was sold by Mandolin Bros. for mare than I paid for it and I'm sure it is being enjoyed.

The Martin charateristic wooly, thumpy and non-pitch specific bass is not what you get with a Collings. Every note, including those in complex chords, counts, is heard and will ring strong. They are also instruments that are built for a lifetime. No thin topped, sounds great year 1 and never get better/dies a slow death like a Taylor.

Can understand why a player would want the wool and thump. Stylistically, if a player accompanied himself as a singer and desired to push a tune along with a bass rich tone (Neil Young comes to mind), you get it with a Martin.

Collings are more like Steinway pianos; every note stands on its own and if you dig in, it doesn't compress or flab out.

It's a great time to play guitar with all the choices.

Have played Santa Cruz and loved a couple, Bourgeios I played recently was awesome....and then there are all the artisenal luthiers like Olson, Manzer....

[zombywoof]

Several have already said it. Picking an acoustic guitar is a pretty subjective process. Back when I had enough extra cash to pick up a "high dollar" guitar I spent about six months trying out new and used Martins, Taylors, a Santa Cruz or two, Huss & Dalton, a bunch of new Gibsons and so on.

I ended up with a 1960 Gibson J-200. It had been refinished by Gibson and had had a few cracks repaired which lowered the price into my range.
It's booming bass, aggressive mids and fat highs coupled the guitar being the best strummer and having more projection than I had ever heard made it the "best" guitar for me. If I played bluegrass or James Taylor-esque style I never would have choen the Gibby.

Funny thing is, the Gibson spends more time in its case than my 1930s Kay Kraft for which I paid less than $300. It is all in the ears and hands.

[Gazza]

Collings cut through the mix straight out of the case. Martins are bassy, muddy, and harder to dial in.

[John Phillips]

I have been A/B'ing all day a 2004 D1A and my '89 Martin D35 WITHOUT scalloped braces (as you know), and do not HEAR the 1500$ price differential for used. Both have identical new strings. The Collings has somewhat better defined highs, but its like a 5% difference. The intonation is better, also yes, but isnt that a function of the bridge, meaning the '35 just needs a tweak?

help me out there,

eKeep the Martin. It clearly sounds as good to you as the Collings, or at least close enough that your playing will make the rest of the difference... or maybe even more. $1500 will buy you a pretty good set-up ;).

FWIW, I've never played one Collings I liked; I've played many D-35s I liked very much - and one that was a total dog, probably the worst Martin I've ever picked up. They vary :). If you find one you really like, buy it - or hold onto it, if you already have it.

Martins are bassy, muddy, and harder to dial in.That's an interesting opinion considering that Martins (the D-28 especially) are almost certainly the most recorded acoustic guitar of all time across all styles and genres of music, and are often kept handy by producers specifically because they give the right sound instantly, no questions asked.

A good Martin is still unbeatable IMO.

[84Bravo]

It is personal prefence, but I can say I have owned over a dozen Collings , dating back to the time Bill built them for Gruhn, and don't own any anymore. To me the trebles are strident and harsh. The voicing of the guitar is not for me. I like the Martin low end "Whomp". Listen to any old Neal Young or CSN for some definative tones. Only Martin can get you the Martin sound. Granted the build quality of a Collings is second to none, but in my opinion, they are overbuilt. The neck joint is bolted in(Martin is not) ang they are a little heavier. I also owned one of the first D1A varnish and sold that because it got beat by my Martin D1A. Collings cannot be beat for cutting through in a bluegrass jam, and pretty much every guitar they make is perfect but they do not try to be exact sonic copies of Martins . Nor does Maritn try to be Collings.

I've owned four Collings--three dreads and one OM model. I don't own them anymore for reasons given above and also because one (D1) split up the center seam. I felt that the necks moved around way too much in my opinion. Mechanically, they are put together well. But I should also add that I've owned eight Martins and don't have one of them anymore, either. To evaluate tone as a function of price is asking for trouble when the honeymoon is over, especially in the wonderful world of acoustic guitarsl. Good tone is where you find it, not what you pay for it.

[Ogre]

To say that all Collings are overly bright, and that all Martins are muddy and indistinct is a gross generalization. The best way to learn about them is to get out and play them. I played a Brazilian rosewood Collings dread this week that was superb. I have played old Martins that were dogs, and some that were stunning.

[Timmo]

When you find a 'good Martin' they are just plain wonderful. Trouble is, that takes ALOT of effort!

I've yet to play a Collings Dread that knocked me out HOWEVER, Collings smaller bodied guitars ( triple O and double O ) KILL most builder's Dreads!
I know, I didn't help you much.......:)

[rhinocaster]

We sell Collings where I work and I just had the BIGGEST crush on a CW. It's the only Dread that I've ever wanted, and I wanted that guitar more than any acoustic I've ever played.

Having said that, I just love the GE Martins.

What a great time to be a guitar fan!

[dave251]

I think it depends on the application. If you're a singer, and strum chords with an emphasis on bass response, the D35 is a great design. It's also very good for rhythm in a bluegrass band where you don't have a bassist.

OTOH, the Collings would make a great lead guitar in a bg band, or for whatever other lead situation you may have.

Here in Lawrence, Mass St. Music carries both brands. I typically prefer the better Martins over about anything else, although the Huss and Dalton guitars are great, and to my ear, have more of the "bluegrass" sound than the Collings do. But that's just my ear....