Speaker vs Speaker - can someone please enlighten me?

[Denny]

I'm looking for a speaker for my 5 watt Winfield. When asking Eminence - they said that it really doesn't matter the wattage rating as much as the SPL. They suggested a Texas Heat (60 watts?) - I would like more bass response and a smooth high end.

I asked Weber Speakers and they suggested a Low Powered Silver Bell Ceramic with a Pre-Rola Treatment (whatever that is) (15 watts). I asked about a Michigan and they said that the 5 watts wouldn't drive the speaker enough.

So ---here are 2 different views from notable speaker manufacturers. I'm sure both views are credible but why the difference in philosophy? why would one manufacturer say to use a 60 watt speaker and the other a 15 watt speaker? I'm so confused now I don't know which way to go??:crazy

[Old Tele man]

...SPL is "sound pressure level" a measure of realitive loudness.

...wattage is a measure of power handling capacity.

[Denny]

right - that stuff I know - It's why will one manufacturer say to get a 60 watt speaker and the other a 15 watt speaker?

[Southbay Ampworks]

I can tell you why.

A 15 watt speaker will be closer to it's best sounding dynamic range and respond better with your 5 watt amp. The 60 watt speaker will not get enough power/wattage to get it in it's dynamic range due to it's higher power handling. My guess is that Eminence doesn't offer anything lower than a 50 watt speaker, IIRC, so that's another good reason to recommend the 60 watt, right?

A few things will change this, however.

1) If the 60 watt speaker is already well broken in, at high volume before you try it with the 5 watt amp, and is an efficient speaker, it should respond better. It will still probably not respond as well as a 15 watt with the same type tone and SPL specs (besides the power handling).

2) If your amp is going to be hit with OD or boost pedals then the 60 watt speaker might be a better choice if you play clean and get your overdrive from pedals. Of course, with a 5 watt amp, you're not going to be able to boost it enough with pedals to hurt a 15 watt speaker, in my experience.

3) SPL's are different between manufacturers. I've heard Celestion's 100db/SPL rating speakers, and they sound like Eminence 102db. So they obviously can't be measuring it at the same point, or with the same accuracy, or both, so SPL ratings are confusing, to say the least.

My advice would be to go with a lower wattage 15-25 watt speaker type. Your 5 watt amp will drive it better and it will be a better dynamic and more responsive speaker for your needs.

Since I don't make a 15 watt speaker, you should probably find a low wattage one that fits your tone needs. Needless to say, I'd recommend Weber for this, as they have a lot of choices, but be honest with them about your tone needs, guitar, fx, gain/OD used, etc. so you get the best recommendation.

Hope that helps!

[Bonenut]

On a similar note, I've had a Celestion Blue (15 watt speaker) in a BFDR (22-25 watts). I use pedals and lots of gain regularly. I've heard that the Blue can withstand a lot of punishment, and it has for a number of years now and still sounds great, but I'm starting to wonder if this has been such a good idea. I'm thinking I may want to get a Scumback H55 for this amp. I suspect a ceramic magnet speaker would be more suitable for a DR. Also, what exactly is Weber's pre-Rola doping in comparison to regular doping?

[Denny]

I know NOTHING about speakers except that they have sound coming out of them. The lower wattage does make sense - I'd guess that given the popularity of low wattage amps recently, eminence and others might begin making lower wattage models to compete in that market. IMHO - both manufactureres have great reputations but it's hard to spend $$$ on something that you can't try out till you buy it and if you don't like it, it's usually difficult to return without having to pay return shipping, and maybe even a restocking fee - (if you can return it at all). That's why I'm attempting to gain some information from TGP members before I purchase one. Any more words of wisdom? Thanks

D.

[hasserl]

Any more words of wisdom?

Yeah, you can read all you want about speakers, and it is good to do so, but you really won't know how a speaker works, in your amp, for you, until you stick the darn thing in and try it. And even then there is a break in period that you have to get thru. The cone is stiff when new and needs time working to loosen up.

Bite the bullet, make the most educated guess you can and get the darn thing and install it, don't make any rash decisions, play it for awhile until it loosens up. Then decide if it's what you really want or not. If not, try something else and sell the one you have in the Emporium.

[jrigg]

I can tell you why.

A 15 watt speaker will be closer to it's best sounding dynamic range and respond better with your 5 watt amp. The 60 watt speaker will not get enough power/wattage to get it in it's dynamic range due to it's higher power handling. My guess is that Eminence doesn't offer anything lower than a 50 watt speaker, IIRC, so that's another good reason to recommend the 60 watt, right?

A few things will change this, however.

1) If the 60 watt speaker is already well broken in, at high volume before you try it with the 5 watt amp, and is an efficient speaker, it should respond better. It will still probably not respond as well as a 15 watt with the same type tone and SPL specs (besides the power handling).

2) If your amp is going to be hit with OD or boost pedals then the 60 watt speaker might be a better choice if you play clean and get your overdrive from pedals. Of course, with a 5 watt amp, you're not going to be able to boost it enough with pedals to hurt a 15 watt speaker, in my experience.

3) SPL's are different between manufacturers. I've heard Celestion's 100db/SPL rating speakers, and they sound like Eminence 102db. So they obviously can't be measuring it at the same point, or with the same accuracy, or both, so SPL ratings are confusing, to say the least.

My advice would be to go with a lower wattage 15-25 watt speaker type. Your 5 watt amp will drive it better and it will be a better dynamic and more responsive speaker for your needs.

Since I don't make a 15 watt speaker, you should probably find a low wattage one that fits your tone needs. Needless to say, I'd recommend Weber for this, as they have a lot of choices, but be honest with them about your tone needs, guitar, fx, gain/OD used, etc. so you get the best recommendation.

Hope that helps!

Trust this response. Jim knows what he is talking about.

[Mike T]

5 watt amp 8" or 10" I'd go with Alnico 15 - 25 watt maybe Jensen.

[Denny]

will do - Weber it is. Thanks

D.

[John Phillips]

Choose on sensitivity and tone. Power handling is irrelevant as long as it's enough. There is no such thing as a speaker which is 'too powerful for the amp', or an amp which is 'not enough to drive a speaker'.

It's quite true that there are some speakers which sound a bit better pushed harder, but it's equally true that there are others - most of them - that sound excellent at a tiny fraction of their power rating.

You can drive a 100W speaker with a 1W amp if you want... and in fact that's exactly what you're doing if (for example) you run a 4x12" cab with G12M-25s at low volume with any amp - even a 100W one, if it's turned down. 1W is surprisingly loud, in fact. It still sounds great though.

A 15W speaker being driven by a 5W amp is not really that much nearer the limit of its power handling (where the real change in characteristics happens) than a 60W speaker. It might sound better if it has a lighter cone, or smaller magnet gap - which tend to be associated with lower-powered speakers since it's harder to make a high-power one that has these things - but it won't necessarily.

[Denny]

Thanks - That's some very interesting facts =- So you're saying that a 60 watt speaker MIGHT sound great driven from a 5 watt amp, but still, a 15 one might sound good to, but probably better because it is approching the characteristics of that speaker's design? wher e does that leave me as far as wattage -? I obviously wont get much speaker break up with the 60 compared to the 15, but does THAT particular speaker's break up sound pleasing? This is difficult stuff. It all comes down to try and hear, but then you could either find a great speaker, or waste your money (or part of it) by not liking it and having to search and spend some more.

What to do? What to do?

D.

[John Phillips]

Thanks - That's some very interesting facts =- So you're saying that a 60 watt speaker MIGHT sound great driven from a 5 watt amp, but still, a 15 one might sound good to, but probably better because it is approching the characteristics of that speaker's design? wher e does that leave me as far as wattage -? I obviously wont get much speaker break up with the 60 compared to the 15, but does THAT particular speaker's break up sound pleasing? This is difficult stuff. It all comes down to try and hear, but then you could either find a great speaker, or waste your money (or part of it) by not liking it and having to search and spend some more.

What to do? What to do?It depends what characteristics you consider 'better' :).

If you're looking for a fairly midrangy, sweet, slightly-broken-up tone you probably do want a low-power speaker with a light cone, because the cone will start to distort much sooner than with a higher-power speaker.

But if you're looking for a deep, clear, 'big' sound it's much less certain.

The power handling is just a measure of how much electrical energy the speaker can take before the voice coil overheats or the cone exceeds its movement limits. It doesn't really tell you a lot about how it responds at a fraction of that power, which is actually the normal operating range for most speakers.

Actually driving the speaker fully to its limits is also very different and not necessarily as good-sounding as the normal coloration it gives when driven moderately hard BTW - a lot of people think they like speaker distortion, but what they're really liking is compression and harmonic coloration - actual speaker distortion can be pretty unpleasant.

[Denny]

OK - I LOVE boogies (I know I know - not much boogie love here on TGP) - This amp is voiced (IMO) between a boog and a marshall - I don't do squeaky clean much - always wanting a little hair on anything I play - I like to clean up the tone w/ my guitars volume, and then hit it hard for that rubbery, compressed sag/distortion. Sometimes I play Jazz stuff but even with that - there's some hair - sometimes I just dime the gains and put the master on half and have some fun diong 80's hair band stuff.. sometimes I'll do Allmans, Bonamassa, etc... Does this help in narrowing doen what I'd probably need?

[phsyconoodler]

You are gonna love a weber alnico speaker.And you are gonna love a Vintage 30.They all produce nice tones with a low wattage amp.Just different.(to echo Mr Phillips)
If you look at the bottom of Eminence's spec pages they say that the speakers are not necessarily just for high-output amps,but work well with low wattage amps too.
There are so many to choose from and all will sound better than a worn out old speaker.Maybe. The best speaker I ever heard for my blackface champ build was an old RCA alnico with obout 10 watts handling.I still have it and will recone it and use it again.

[Denny]

It camewith a Celestion V30 and to my ears just sounded OK - I put in an Eminence Texas Heat from my Fender and it might have sounded a little better - I'm going to try a 60's UTAH I took from an old stereo that sounds great in my Fender Musicmaster Bass amp (with guitar). Don't get me wrong - the amp sounds great with a all these speakers, but my feeling is - I had a custom ordered, custom built amp made for me - with the features I wanted on it and I feel I just want to make sure I'm getting the optimal tone from it. The V-30 sounds good, but it seems to be lacking enough bass at lower volumes the Eminence sounds ok but seens a little restrictive. Gonna try the Utah tonight.

[MrChet]

I suggest Celelstion G12M Greenback (or equivalents from weber, scumbak, mojo,em, etc.)

Celestion Blues

Emi Red Fang, or Governor. I like the Gov way better than the V30s. better bass and it's not spikey.