The 24 vs 22 fret thing here on TGP

[SeaFoamGreen]

I see a lot of talk here and there about the 22 vs 24 fret thing (especially because of the PRS forum ties, I guess). Let me see if I've got it straight..

The 24-fret crowd likes that because of 2 extra frets to play those super high notes on..

And the 22-fret crowd likes the tone from having the neck pickup just a little bit further from the bridge....

Is that it? :)


(and I guess the counterarguments probably go that the 24-fret fans dont think that extra bit of spacing for the neck pickup makes much difference, and the 22-fret fans probably think those 2 extra frets are hardly even needed :) )

[swimrunner]

I think that pretty much nails it on the head. The non-wallet friendly solution: get both.

[1radicalron]

The 24 fret neck pushes the neck pickup off the string harmonic. This may not be a big deal to some, But I find I like the extra sustain of the pickup on the harmonic.

[Pete Galati]

(and I guess the counterarguments probably go that the 24-fret fans dont think that extra bit of spacing for the neck pickup makes much difference, and the 22-fret fans probably think those 2 extra frets are hardly even needed :) )

I obviously makes a difference what harmonics pickups are mounted at. Whether everyone can appreciate the difference or not.

But some people prefer not having the neck pickup mounted at the 24th fret, like they are with 22 fret guitars.

I like 21 or 22 fret guitars best myself. If I was using a 24 fret guitar, I'm sure I'd use those extra frets, but for me, not having them isn't a disadvantage. The best sounds are more in the middle of the neck anyhow IMO.

Pete

[Sniper-V]

I can't play that high anyway...:eek:

[drolling]

Heh.. yeah.. My tele's only got 21 frets, but I can get this cool high note by fretting against the edge of the neck pickup's metal cover:AOK!!

[Turbo Gerbil]

The 24 fret neck pushes the neck pickup off the string harmonic. This may not be a big deal to some, But I find I like the extra sustain of the pickup on the harmonic.

Pretty much a non - issue as soon as the string is fretted, isn't it?

I like the "symmetry" of a 24 fret neck having the full two octaves to play with, and even if you don't go all the way up to 24 the access to higher frets is still easier in general, unless the guitar does the "Gibson DC" thing and just extends the fretboard but not the cutaway.

[mge80]

Personally, I have found no use for more than 22 frets, tone issues aside.

[davess23]

Non-issue for me, as long as it's a good sounding guitar.

[Martin Horne]

I have both 22 and 24 fret guitars and am comfortable with both. For me, the shape of the neck is more important than the number of frets it has.

[SGNick]

I hardly go past 19... and if I do... I regret it, and go back down...

[Thor]

I hardly go past 19... and if I do... I regret it, and go back down...


Ain't that the truth - how is that so many of the guitarists I love and admire can hang with these amazing riffs and runs way up there but when I even venture there it sounds like poop!?!

Cheers,

Edward

[Crewchief]

How about the feel!!!!!!!!!! I am personally a 22 fret kind of guy because of the playability for me. I used to play nothing but 24 fret guitars, but now when I pick one up they just feel stiff to me and not worth the stiffness for two extra frets.

[BBQLS1]

I see a lot of talk here and there about the 22 vs 24 fret thing (especially because of the PRS forum ties, I guess). Let me see if I've got it straight..

The 24-fret crowd likes that because of 2 extra frets to play those super high notes on..

And the 22-fret crowd likes the tone from having the neck pickup just a little bit further from the bridge....

Is that it? :)


(and I guess the counterarguments probably go that the 24-fret fans dont think that extra bit of spacing for the neck pickup makes much difference, and the 22-fret fans probably think those 2 extra frets are hardly even needed :) )


Yep that's it. I prefer getting better tone to having two more frets! :munch

[monstermike]

Pretty much a non - issue as soon as the string is fretted, isn't it?

I like the "symmetry" of a 24 fret neck having the full two octaves to play with, and even if you don't go all the way up to 24 the access to higher frets is still easier in general, unless the guitar does the "Gibson DC" thing and just extends the fretboard but not the cutaway.

Fretted or not, the pickup is still farther from the bridge, which I think makes the difference as much or more than the harmonic (like you said, the harmonic only qualifies when the string is open). So you get a rounder, more classic "neck pickup" character with fewer frets. Some archtops and Gibson's J-160E flattop have the pickup on the OTHER side of that harmonic, and you can't get much rounder and tubbier than that.

[FrankiePRS]

I use both. I prefer the 24-fret design (2 octaves just makes sense to me), but there are some tones that I can only get on a 22-fretter. I don't think they're inherently 'better' though, just different.

[Tone_Terrific]

2 big hb rings and the pups can make it crowded on a 24 setup.
More pups and it's worse.
The 24 bodies must be smaller and/or with deeper cutaways for access to the top frets to be effective. Big deal? If you like it or not, maybe.
I think 22 gives a good balance of space, tonal options and high note access.

[walterw]

there's also the argument (i think prs makes it) that since the 22-fret neck is typically that much shorter before it joins the body, it is stiffer, resulting in better, more solid tone. (not counting old sg's and such.)

[GasMask]

22 for me!

I might like having those extra 2 frets from time to time, but I enjoy the superior tone from 22 frets all the time- just a better position for the neck pickup. Compare similar PRS's for example, one with 22 & one with 24, and you will hear the difference. I've A/B'd them, and it's significant.

[BBQLS1]

22 for me!

I might like having those extra 2 frets from time to time, but I enjoy the superior tone from 22 frets all the time- just a better position for the neck pickup. Compare similar PRS's for example, one with 22 & one with 24, and you will hear the difference. I've A/B'd them, and it's significant.

I agree, but you need to note the pups are different.

[TattooedCarrot]

I don't know about the harmonic placement thing, all I know is IMO the neck pup sounds a little sweeter on a 22 fret neck and I'm more familiar with placement of my fingers when looking at 22. I can get lost looking at 24 quickly just because I'm not used to it. Lastly, I don't have a playing style that really makes use of the two complete octaves you get all the way up a 24. I'm fine with 22 or even 21.

[big mike]

Well for me, it's more a matter of neck carve. I much prefer the Regular PRS carve to W/F. My PRS is a 22, but because of how amazing it sounds. I did like on my 24's the extra clarity to the buckers by being that little bit more towards the bridge.

I generally have no use for the extra 2 frets, but I like em both really.

[big mike]

I agree, but you need to note the pups are different.


True. Stock PRS HFS/VB are among my least favorite.

My 87 and 86 standards sounded great stock, my 04 I had switched to Duncans, and it really sounded better.

[John Phillips]

And the 22-fret crowd likes the tone from having the neck pickup just a little bit further from the bridge....

Is that it? :)No. The other important thing is that on the 24-fret PRSs (though not necessarily all 24-fret guitars) the neck is actually moved further out of the body. The neck pickup is in exactly the same place on the body, but the bridge, bridge pickup and even the controls are all shifted to the left by the spacing of the two extra frets (about 3/4").

This changes the balance of the guitar, where your left hand falls on the neck, and where your right hand falls over the strings - or hits the bridge... or knocks the volume control. They just feel all wrong to me. I wouldn't even play a PRS if all they offered was the 24-fret models.

But the 22-fret PRS is the most perfect guitar for me that I've ever played. (Double-cutaway - I don't like the Singlecuts because the upper bout is too short. Some time ago I finally realised what made a guitar feel perfect to me - it was actually amazingly obvious, once I spotted it... the front strap button must be parallel to the 14th fret, or very close. Obviously there are a few other things as well, but that's the fundamental starting point.)

Also, a 24-fret neck sounds different from a 22 as well, because a shorter neck is a lot stiffer than a longer one - even with such a small difference. Add the longer heel and fatter profile - since PRS doesn't offer the Wide-Fat on the 24s - and it isn't just the position of the neck pickup that makes the 22s sound (IMO) better.

[Berlin Chris]

Also, on a 24-fretter the pickups are closer together, which gives you (subjectively) better inbetween sounds. At least that´s what I found on PRS guitars. Given the choice, I would always go with a Custom24 for feel AND flexibility of sounds.

[JPenn]

No. The other important thing is that on the 24-fret PRSs (though not necessarily all 24-fret guitars) the neck is actually moved further out of the body. The neck pickup is in exactly the same place on the body, but the bridge, bridge pickup and even the controls are all shifted to the left by the spacing of the two extra frets (about 3/4").



I was wondering if anyone was going to mention this. This is the same reason I prefer the 22's over 24's. The way everything is shifted back on the 22's makes the guitar feel "right" to me, from the way it hangs on me to the way it plays.

I do still have my CE that I got in 1992 and use it anytime I am without a 22 fret PRS, but it's just not as comfortable.

[gkoelling]

I like 21 or 22 fret guitars best myself. The best sounds are more in the middle of the neck anyhow IMO.

Pete

+1

21 is fine but 22 is OK too.

I can't play that high anyway...:eek:

Yeah, what the heck are people doing up there?

Heh.. yeah.. My tele's only got 21 frets, but I can get this cool high note by fretting against the edge of the neck pickup's metal cover:AOK!!

Roy Buchanan!

[John Phillips]

Yeah, what the heck are people doing up there?I do actually play the top E in one solo... but it's the D at the 22nd bent up - it has to be to sound right, and then I let the bend back down just a bit before I let go. If it was just the straight E at the 24th fret it doesn't sound as intense, so I never played it there even when I had a 24-fret Rickenbacker.

Playing it on a 21-fret guitar is hard though - I can't get a .011 up three steps. I usually do it by playing it at the 10th and hitting the octave harmonic with my thumb knuckle.

[GuitarGuy510]

But... but... but... without those extra two frets, how will you go "meedly-meedly-meedly-mee" in your solos?! :o Eh, I don't usually play that high but my Thorn has 22 and I dig the tone and feel a LOT. The JP6 I have has 24 frets and I don't feel it plays any more poorly for having 2 more frets than the Thorn. I think (as has already been said) that the fret amount doesn't make as much a difference as the neck carve itself. ;) I will say, however, that my Thorn rocks the JP in terms of feel and tone, but that's more of a personal thing and I personally feel the build quality on Ron's guitars is superior. The EBMM is a superb instrument (best off-the-shelf guitars out there IMHO) but it just doesn't have *that* tone that I'm looking to get out of my guitars, not sure if that has to do with the neck pickup placement or not? *shrug*

[T.Wesley]

On a 22 fret guitar, the primary harmonic node is only over the neck pickup on open strings and when you play at the 12th fret.

How often do you play open strings? At the 12th fret?

If you play mostly "cowboy chords" (first position open chords) then 75% of the notes you're playing will put their 2nd-octave harmonic node over the neck pickup of a 24 fret guitar - not a 22 fret guitar.

I prefer what Brian May calls the "nice neat double octave" - 24 fretters. I like 22 fret guitars as well - some (Thorn!) more than others.

I bet I could play a Custom 22 and a Custom 24 for just about anybody, and they'd be hard pressed to choose which was which.

A 22 fret Les Paul sounds a lot different than a 24 fret Ibanez. A 21 fret Tele doesn't sound very different (if at all) from a 22 fret Tele.

I think a lot of that "22 fret guitars sound better" stuff is in the mind of the beholder.

--chiba

[buddastrat]

Heh.. yeah.. My tele's only got 21 frets, but I can get this cool high note by fretting against the edge of the neck pickup's metal cover:AOK!!


I have mine so I can hit the high E right in tune on the pickup, and it sounds awesome on high gain. I'll bend it up to F# or G. I use it in a few shred style solos. Teles rock.

[buddastrat]

No. The other important thing is that on the 24-fret PRSs (though not necessarily all 24-fret guitars) the neck is actually moved further out of the body. The neck pickup is in exactly the same place on the body, but the bridge, bridge pickup and even the controls are all shifted to the left by the spacing of the two extra frets (about 3/4").

This changes the balance of the guitar, where your left hand falls on the neck, and where your right hand falls over the strings - or hits the bridge... or knocks the volume control. They just feel all wrong to me. I wouldn't even play a PRS if all they offered was the 24-fret models.

But the 22-fret PRS is the most perfect guitar for me that I've ever played. (Double-cutaway - I don't like the Singlecuts because the upper bout is too short. Some time ago I finally realised what made a guitar feel perfect to me - it was actually amazingly obvious, once I spotted it... the front strap button must be parallel to the 14th fret, or very close. Obviously there are a few other things as well, but that's the fundamental starting point.)

Also, a 24-fret neck sounds different from a 22 as well, because a shorter neck is a lot stiffer than a longer one - even with such a small difference. Add the longer heel and fatter profile - since PRS doesn't offer the Wide-Fat on the 24s - and it isn't just the position of the neck pickup that makes the 22s sound (IMO) better.


That's what I hate about all the PRS's. They put my whole picking hand/arm in a weird forward position that's not comfortable because that bridge is so far forward. I've owned a few and never gotten comfortable with that. Plus to get any depth to the tone, I found myself playing so far forward I was picking on the neck trying to get less tinniness.

[tnvol]

I dont play up there so it doesnt matter to me. I can play on either..

[rcgpny1]

Anyone out there who plays an SG also "lives" with the sound of a 24 fret guitar(even though most sg have 22 frets)because of where the pickup is mounted.....back from the neckjoint for strength. So many classic sg players (Cream era Clapton comes to mind) used that tone to great effect. It is different than the tone with the pickup under that octave harmonic but it's just as valid.
Also think about the placement on the eds1275. It is actually
"further up the neck" than on a Les paul for instance. This also provides a unique sound...very close to sound John Lennon got with his J160E for "I FeeL Fine". ( this also has the pickup placement found on that guitar and many of Gibson's full size jazz axes) So...just plug in and play....They're all good!!

[daddyo]

Will someone end this strife and make a 23 fret guitar?:worried

[John Phillips]

That's what I hate about all the PRS's. They put my whole picking hand/arm in a weird forward position that's not comfortable because that bridge is so far forward. I've owned a few and never gotten comfortable with that. Plus to get any depth to the tone, I found myself playing so far forward I was picking on the neck trying to get less tinniness.You want less tinniness and you play Strats? :confused: :)

A Strat is actually slightly the opposite, to me - the bridge is just a bit too far back, the front strap button is around the 13th fret, and I find myself playing over the end of the neck half the time. And still it sounds too thin...

(BTW, yes I know what you mean about some PRSs. I feel the same way about a maple-top 24-fret model with 9s on. Try a Standard 22 with 11s and see if it sounds tinny ;).)

[buddastrat]

A strat has a bigger low end to me John. Probably the scale length. Sure a bridge single coil can be a little tinny. But PRS tend to have a narrow high mid type of sound, resulting in a "plinky" string response, and the strat had a bigger, bolder thing happening to my ears. Again, it's probably scale length factored in there. The longer scale should have a deeper low end correct?

[Shredmonster]

Its obviously personal preference. I have a couple 22 fretters but they are not my main guitars.

I like 24 frets period and won't get a guitar that does not have them any more. I only purchase custom guitars these days and I only get 24 fretters. But thats because I use the upper frets on a regular basis - I play all over the neck and regularly run up there.

Yeah the argument goes just bend the 22nd fret up. But when I hear that it comes from people that don't get it because they play a certain way and I play another. I regularly will do Em or Am arps using all 6 strings and the upper frets on several of those strings. Can't do them without having 24 frets.
I regularly run scales up there also sometimes at or over 200 bpm. You can't stretch that fast.

I have a bolt on 24 fretter that has a Duncan '59 in the neck and I have no problem getting harmonics with it and the sustain is just killer - better than the bridge pup.

[jtees4]

I see a lot of talk here and there about the 22 vs 24 fret thing (especially because of the PRS forum ties, I guess). Let me see if I've got it straight..

The 24-fret crowd likes that because of 2 extra frets to play those super high notes on..

And the 22-fret crowd likes the tone from having the neck pickup just a little bit further from the bridge....

Is that it? :)


(and I guess the counterarguments probably go that the 24-fret fans dont think that extra bit of spacing for the neck pickup makes much difference, and the 22-fret fans probably think those 2 extra frets are hardly even needed :) )

I have guitars with both, and don't hear much difference other than differences that would be there regardless, just from being different guitars. I rarely if ever need the two extra frets though.

[John Phillips]

A strat has a bigger low end to me John. Probably the scale length. Sure a bridge single coil can be a little tinny. But PRS tend to have a narrow high mid type of sound, resulting in a "plinky" string response, and the strat had a bigger, bolder thing happening to my ears. Again, it's probably scale length factored in there. The longer scale should have a deeper low end correct?(Getting a little off-topic here, sorry...)

It depends.

Like I said, try a Standard 22 strung with 11s (trem model, not stoptail - contrary to popular belief I think the trem ones sound 'bigger') and see if it doesn't have a deeper, bolder sound than a Strat. Mine does...

I agree up to a point that many PRSs seem to be more about mids than bass, and I still find my Custom (even though it's a 22 not a 24, and also a trem model) is more midrange-focused than the Standard. They are also definitely more string gauge-sensitive than some guitars, including Fenders (and definitely more so than Les Pauls).

What I don't like about Strats is the lack of mids - I find them 'chinky' or 'plinky' sounding, mostly. There may be plenty of bass, but also too much top-end and not enough mids.

It's to do with the neck material as well as the scale or the number of frets - my Custom 22 Soapbar (all-maple neck) has more of that deep/bright Fender twang - it actually sounds somewhere between a Strat and a Tele in some ways, despite its mahogany/maple body and 25" scale.

[buddastrat]

(Getting a little off-topic here, sorry...)

It depends.

Like I said, try a Standard 22 strung with 11s (trem model, not stoptail - contrary to popular belief I think the trem ones sound 'bigger') and see if it doesn't have a deeper, bolder sound than a Strat. Mine does...

I agree up to a point that many PRSs seem to be more about mids than bass, and I still find my Custom (even though it's a 22 not a 24, and also a trem model) is more midrange-focused than the Standard. They are also definitely more string gauge-sensitive than some guitars, including Fenders (and definitely more so than Les Pauls).

What I don't like about Strats is the lack of mids - I find them 'chinky' or 'plinky' sounding, mostly. There may be plenty of bass, but also too much top-end and not enough mids.

It's to do with the neck material as well as the scale or the number of frets - my Custom 22 Soapbar (all-maple neck) has more of that deep/bright Fender twang - it actually sounds somewhere between a Strat and a Tele in some ways, despite its mahogany/maple body and 25" scale.


I've always used this same amp for many, many years of teaching and everytime I had a PRS (three 22's) or a student had one, a strat sounded bigger, and less plinky. We're always plugged into the same amp with same settings. The PRS was louder with humbuckers, but the design and scale length gives it that narrow upper mid thing and chops off low end which made me return three PRSs.
I did have a McCarty which had more depth and a thicker tone.


Back to topic, I don't care for the tone of the front pickup when the poition is compromised because of a 24 fretter. I use the front pickup a lot more than I'd use a 23rd or 24th fret.

[Garrett Bagby]

24 frets just makes more sense to me. I always thought it was weird that most guitars end at 21 or 22. Seems you should complete that second octave.

That said, I have one 24 fretter, 5 with 22 and one with 21, so I can deal regardless. I particularly miss having a 22nd fret, but the extra two are even better when jamming.

[nitehawk55]

Stupid as it sounds if I pick up a 24 fret guitar it's like a different scale to me . I don't know if it's the placement or spacing but it throws me off . :hiP

[Turbo Gerbil]

How about the feel!!!!!!!!!! I am personally a 22 fret kind of guy because of the playability for me. I used to play nothing but 24 fret guitars, but now when I pick one up they just feel stiff to me and not worth the stiffness for two extra frets.

I'm not sure how the feel could be different as long as the scale length is equivalent.

[c_mac]

The 24 fret neck pushes the neck pickup off the string harmonic. This may not be a big deal to some, But I find I like the extra sustain of the pickup on the harmonic.

I guess if you play a lot of open strings.

[Maxer]

I dunno. Either I've not come to a decisive point where I know what I prefer or it's all grist for the mill and I enjoy different guitars for different reasons. I have a couple of 24 fret babies and I enjoy the upper fret access... and yes, I do chord way up there. Not so much soloing, but chording - two full octaves can be mighty cool. But I also have 22 and 21 fret guitars, and I enjoy playing them just as much, although they embody different aspects of my playing. Just like I have bolt-ons and set necks... and just like I keep a Floyd Rose among the hardtails and classic, old-school whammies. Variety rules!

I just don't see it as necessarily being an either/or kinda deal.

[kimock]

Fretted or not, the pickup is still farther from the bridge, which I think makes the difference as much or more than the harmonic (like you said, the harmonic only qualifies when the string is open). So you get a rounder, more classic "neck pickup" character with fewer frets. Some archtops and Gibson's J-160E flattop have the pickup on the OTHER side of that harmonic, and you can't get much rounder and tubbier than that.

I'm not sure I'm getting this "harmonic" thing.
The placement of the pickup at the location of the harmonic is the point, right? You could just say hypothetical fret 24 or something instead, no?
Why would it matter if the string were open or not, it's still the location of that node on the string, and it is a node, as in non-vibrating portion of the string, so you don't get "extra harmonic content" or something with the open string, you get less harmonic content, right?
It's a little confusing. . .

John Phillips! Help!!

:eek:

[BBQLS1]

I'm not sure I'm getting this "harmonic" thing.
The placement of the pickup at the location of the harmonic is the point, right? You could just say hypothetical fret 24 or something instead, no?
Why would it matter if the string were open or not, it's still the location of that node on the string, and it is a node, as in non-vibrating portion of the string, so you don't get "extra harmonic content" or something with the open string, you get less harmonic content, right?
It's a little confusing. . .

John Phillips! Help!!

:eek:


When you fret a note, the harmonic moves up accordingly. Lightly place your finger on a string on the 12th fret and pluck said string - you get the harmonic there. Now fret the string at the first fret, the harmonic will be above the 13th fret.


Now hammer on at the second fret repeatedly while lightly touching the string but moving your hand to the headstock then back towards the bridge back and forth rocking out like Gary Moore!

[The Eristic]

Screw this argument, I'm'a get me one o' these:

http://www.garykramerguitar.com/F1.htm

[BBQLS1]

Screw this argument, I'm'a get me one o' these:

http://www.garykramerguitar.com/F1.htm

The neck pickup on those suck.

[The Eristic]

The neck pickup on those suck.

Au contraire! It's a rather lovely pickup. So good, in fact, it exists in a state transcendent of the material sphere.

[Zero]

With 24 fret guitars it isn't so much that, oh it's so great to hit those notes up there on 23 & 24, it's that when you are on 21 or 22 your hand has some wiggle room. It's free and clear, unlike on a Strat where it's really cramped and mashed against the cutaway.

[John Phillips]

I'm not sure I'm getting this "harmonic" thing.
The placement of the pickup at the location of the harmonic is the point, right? You could just say hypothetical fret 24 or something instead, no?
Why would it matter if the string were open or not, it's still the location of that node on the string, and it is a node, as in non-vibrating portion of the string, so you don't get "extra harmonic content" or something with the open string, you get less harmonic content, right?
It's a little confusing. . .

John Phillips! Help!!

:eek:
You're right, of course! :)

The supposed advantage of the placement of the neck pickup on a 22-fret guitar being 'under the harmonic node' is nonsense, unless you only ever play open strings. As soon as you fret one, the node moves up proportionately, and in fact if you play a note at the second fret, the pickup is in the "correct" place on a 24-fret guitar.

And in fact, being under the node is no advantage anyway, as that simply means the pickup will sense very little of the string movement at that harmonic - try selecting the neck pickup and playing a 5th/24th-fret harmonic, and see how much you can hear compared to the 12th-fret harmonic, where the pickup is at the point of maximum string movement.

The slightly deeper tone due to the pickup being closer to the middle of the string is real, but it has nothing to do with its placement relative to particular harmonic nodes. The relative mix of harmonics changes constantly at any pickup position as you play up and down the string. That's one of the reasons an electric guitar has such a complex, interesting sound that works so well with effects (including distortion, which changes the balance of the harmonics drastically) and partly why the same note played on a different string sounds so different.