Caps and their effect on tone

[toneman335]

I read that the warm and smooth tones are attained with oill filled caps like Jensens or the Mojo type and mallory types which I understand is like the Mojo Dijon line. Conversely, the orange drop type cap is more sterile sounding.
Is this true and if so why do I see so many recapped amps have orange drop caps?

[Trout]

I read that the warm and smooth tones are attained with oill filled caps like Jensens or the Mojo type and mallory types which I understand is like the Mojo Dijon line. Conversely, the orange drop type cap is more sterile sounding.
Is this true and if so why do I see so many recapped amps have orange drop caps?

I have tried a lot of caps, Paper Oils, Russian PIO's, Genuine Vitamin Qs, Westcaps, Jensens and so on and never felt I got anything more from them. They are for the most part fairly transparent but rather lack luster.
The garden variety " mustard wannabes " always sound muted on the high end. Some people call that smoother? Bah, DULL in my book. This includes Mallory,Sozo,CDE,Dijon and a few other re-labels.

Not all orange drops are created equal either, but one thing you can count on with Spragues, reliability and clarity and accuracy.
I avoid the 715's and 716's when I buy orange drops, But the 6PS series which btw cost a bit less do offer the best results to my ears.

What I find interesting is that when you start looking at legendary boutique amps, The orange drop was "THE CAP" of choice by many famous builders.

Trout

[deeval]

I recapped a 67 super reverb about 10yrs ago with a kit from Torres amps,and from the 1st day to today the amp has sounded great,original Blue mallorys didnt sound as good.And these are the 715 spragues.
I have had Great Boutique amps with Mustards,and black gates that didnt have the musical tones of the Spragues.

[hasserl]

I think it's mostly psychoacoustics and the claimed differences, for the most part, are imagined. I've been asking anyone to prove they can identify different caps by ear and I've yet to have anyone do it or even try.

Toneman, I don't know why you've asked the question, but my response is to not worry about it. It's a waste of time and money. Anyone that tells you about these big differences in tone, ask them to prove it. See how many of them can.

[phsyconoodler]

'Psychoacoustics'?
Wow,what a statement! I have swapped many a cap in many an amp and there is a huge difference in tone with some caps vs others.
Just popping them in and listening doesn't do it.You need to break some of those caps in before they start to sound really good.
Sozos being one type that requires a break-in period.
One amp in particular that I re-capped was a super reverb.It had these flat coupling caps with a 'mac' on them.Someone had swapped them out at one point in it's life.I pulled them out,checked the capacitance of each cap,and replaced them with Mojo Dijons.Well this amp didn't need a break in period.It sounded like the 'blanket' over the amp had been removed.As the owner played it more,the better it sounded.It never sounded that good,and he was extremely skeptical before.I did nothing else to the amp at all,having serviced it a year before.That's about the most dramatic result I have noticed.
But if you say there is no appreciable difference,why do guys hear a difference?These guys are pro players who know their amps and know exactly what to expect from it.When they change speakers and are not freaked by the change,change tubes and go ho-hum,and then I change the caps and their eyes pop out,what does that tell you?
Oh sure,there are variables here,but if it didn't make any difference in tone from cheap-ass mylar to mojo dijons,I really wouldn't bother.there are some that sound so-so and are way expensive and some that are cheaper and kill.
They all seem to alter the tone,whether for better or worse.
The biggest difference was that super and the next was DRRI.I popped out the mylar caps and popped in a set of orange drops.715's.Nice change to be sure.No brainer.
As far as identifying caps by ear,I don't think anyone can,but if it's better sounding with a change in caps,who cares what brand they are?If you swap out a set of mustards for a set of mylars and it sounds better,great.
But don't tell me there is no difference.There is.
Guess that's why they call me 'phsyconoodler".I don't buy that argumement at all.
As far as making claims that 'Mojo Dijons' will make your amp sound like a million bucks,I can't do that.But I can honestly say there are some big gains to be made in quality of tone if you are willing to try.
You can't compare one brand of cap to another if they are in different amps.The only way is to swap them in the same amp and test on the same day.If the tone is improved and only gets better with time,it has worked.

[momo]

About a year ago, I landed a score on old oil paper caps, 'Grey Tiger Caps'....I proceeded to do some tests, I alternated between a dozen caps and narrowed down my choices. First of all, talking about this is like talking about art, not everyone has the same tastes, I like the high end rolled off from these caps, in fact as far as the high end is concerned, all the caps tried cut pretty much the high end at the same place. Where the changes were most felt were in the low end response, but also in the clarity of the sound within the audible spectrum.
All the caps, had the desired effect when the tone knob was completly rolled off, having the tone pot at 50% off or even 75% off, had some effect, but it was nothing like 100% off. It seems that the effect is exponential past the 90% mark.
So anyway, the low end in my opinion is where things got funky....I narrowed down the caps to about 5 that had great low end(accentuated low end).
These tests were done with a strat that had no other tone cap inline.
My strat is now equipped with a Grey Tiger .005 cap, and let me tell you about psycho acoustics:D, I now have godlike low end, nice and fat, you should hear what that sounds like thru a Big Muff!
So in the end, Id say the biggest difference from contemporary caps or even vintage ceramic ones found in alot of vintage guitars is the low end.Vintage ceramic sounds good, but lacks the uummff that vintage oil caps have.
Here are some pics of the chosen ones and how it fit in my strat
Cheers.

Ha HA...just realized that im in an amp forum and that your talking about amps....sheeesh, I need better coffee!, still I think the info is pertinent....

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s114/momoo_bucket/PICT4910.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s114/momoo_bucket/PICT4933.jpg

[hasserl]

As far as identifying caps by ear,I don't think anyone can,
Exactly

But don't tell me there is no difference.There is.
Then you'd be able to identify it by ear.

You can't compare one brand of cap to another if they are in different amps.The only way is to swap them in the same amp and test on the same day.

I agree with most of this. But I think in order to effectively determine that the caps do make a difference you'd have both caps (matched for capacitance) plugged into the circuit wired up to a switching device that allows you to switch them quickly. Otherwise the variables are too great, aural memory fades, and the power of suggestion takes over.

why do guys hear a difference?
They hear a difference because they want to hear it, Psychoacoustics.

[MikeMcK]

Psychoacoustics definitely plays a part, and I'll be the first to admit I've fallen prey to it myself.

On the other hand, you can't say two caps are "equivalent" because they have equal values. The real test would be to put each in an identical circuit, sweeping both frequencies and input power. If they truly behaved identically, I'd have no doubt they'd sound the same.

But since there's no such thing as "exactly identical", it could be that some ears (much better than mine) can hear the tiny differences in phase shift, compression, and other parameters that can be affected by cap design.

They will also vary from cap to cap, so I do have a hard time accepting that every vintage orange drop cap is the same, for example. Just my opinion, and many will disagree.

[John Phillips]

I do think there is a difference, but it isn't that large, and if you changed just one cap in an amp you might not be able to conclusively tell (although there are a few positions where I think you might, eg the treble cap in a typical tone stack).

But if you compare an amp with a whole set of one type of cap to the same amp with a different type, there most certainly is a difference and I'm absolutely certain most people would be able to tell. I've noticed this time after time when restoring old amps - often, simply going through it and removing all changed components and replacing them with the original types is all that's needed to bring back the 'vintage' tone. The caps are the most important, followed by plate resistors. (Many components that aren't in the direct audio path make no difference, though.)

It's not a matter of values, and anyway from one end of a signal path to the other, the tolerance variations probably average out - it's a difference in the actual sound of the components.

Could I identify a single cap type by ear? No. Can I tell the difference between an old amp with its original caps and one where they've all been replaced by modern types? Yes. It would be very time-consuming to test it properly, but I'd be happy to take part in any experiment anyone can think of that would make it easier.

[hasserl]

Good posts Mike and John. To be honest, I'm not really saying there is no difference, I'm just trying to put the brakes on the often repeated internet hype of certain caps and their magic abilities to transform tone. It's all too much like snake oil sold to unsuspecting victims. The differences one hears from a cap change can be attributed to many causes, not just from the type of insulator used or the color or shape of the cap or the name printed on it. And the power of suggestion is strong. Sugar pills have treated a lot of illnesses.

[fullerplast]

Caps can sound different in different circuits at least in part because they are not purely capacitive components. Every passive component has some amount of resistance, inductance, and capacitance associated with it, regardless of it's primary function. For caps, different construction and even voltage ratings yield different equivalent series resistance and inductance components in addition to the nominal value of the primary capacitance.

The effect of these parasitic components will depend almost entirely on the circuit in which it is placed, and also the impedance in front of and following that circuit. For most audio applications, it's almost always easier to listen for a change than to calculate what that change may be, simply due to the large number of variables. Conversely, however, one can show via calculation that at least some of the variables cannot possibly be of the magnitude required to affect a circuit to the degree needed to be audible.

It all depends on the particular caps and the particular circuit, not to mention the changes that take place to the dielectric of some caps during break-in. It's all as definitive as mud.;)

[Robal]

I have a Silverface Champ that I experiment with because it's so simple a circuit. I swapped four different coupling caps, all the same value, Musicap, Jensen, Auricap, and Mallory, using allegator clips so that the switch was relatively fast. The differences were subtle, but each did sound different, and I found one that I preferred over the others in that circuit. I did the listening with my son, whose hearing (young ears) is amazing, and we both agreed on the audible differences.

[TheAmpNerd]

WTF Over, the message was too short!


(As far as identifying caps by ear,I don't think anyone can)Exactly
Sure can tell the difference. So can very good players who still have ears. So can other musicians too.
It can be very subtle though.

(But don't tell me there is no difference.There is.)
Then you'd be able to identify it by ear.
Sure can.


(You can't compare one brand of cap to another if they are in different amps.The only way is to swap them in the same amp and test on the same day.)
I agree with most of this. But I think in order to effectively determine that the caps do make a difference you'd have both caps (matched for capacitance) plugged into the circuit wired up to a switching device that allows you to switch them quickly. Otherwise the variables are too great, aural memory fades, and the power of suggestion takes over.
Nope. The reality of it. And so can many of the people who come to me for better tone
and responsiveness from their amps.

I can start to hear what the amp will sound like when I'm wroking on it, depending
on what I'm pulling out of it and what I'm putting into it.

(why do guys hear a difference?)
They hear a difference because they want to hear it, Psychoacoustics.
Nothing could be further from the truth for me.

I cannot tell you while I hear differently then others..but I do.

Perhaps you can't hear it, I can.
I can hear the distortion in an amp, or of a a horn loaded driver. Because you can't
doesn't mean it doesn't exhist. If it didn't exist, then why do some amps give you
fatigue while other don't?

There are also huge differences in types of caps....I cannot explain it but it is.

Just as you can hear differences in types of wire, types of resistors etc.

Ken Fischer wrote about it. Dave Funk wrote about it. Some of the guys
here swear by certain types of caps, etc.

You can hear the difference by doing the following:

Go from.......... ... Go to

Ceramic ............. Silver Mica

Mylar film ........... Metalized polypropelene
Polycarbonate ..... Polypropelene film and foil
Metalized Film ..... Teflon and foil.

Carbon comp ....... Metal Film
Metal Film ........... Carbon comp

Some of these are pretty drastic while others are most subtle.

Doing the first one in each catagory will demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt it makes a difference, a huge one.
Try it and see it's less then $100 in parts and your time. You will be amazed, especialy if you end up wtih Mica (sorry mica
you got stuck with the others), Met Ploly, and Met Film!

Harsh, nasty, and sterile!

I will challenge anyone on the board, I guarantee you will hear the difference (unless you are deaf).
You might not like what you hear, but you will hear the difference!

Until you've done that, there is really no reason to discuss it.


Some time long ago Tood Shock posted a graphs of differetn capacitor characteristics on here,
you could clearly see the different aspecsts of each type of cap. Todd if you could do that again
that would be great.

Also, I think Sbench posted some scope shots of different caps too. They had differetn histeiseris(sp) lafe, late.

Both the graphs and the scopes show differences in behavior of the caps, there fore some should and do hear it
while other don't hear it, but they can see "charts".

[VacuumVoodoo]

Funny how this subject pops up regularly:D

so, just for the sake of argument, my earlier responses:

"We are talking about qualitatives and perception of subtle differences, positing that these can not be measured is not true. It's a question of defining/identifying the physical parameters that are responsible for these perceived differences. Remember TIM (Transient Intermodulation Distortion) ? Lot's of people heard it and equally many said it's a brainghost untill Matti Otala discovered the mechanism behind it, and quantified and measured it. About 30 years ago. If there are non-imaginary differences in perceived sound due to different capacitor technologies they'll be measurable. The scientific method requires that those who claim existence of a phenomen have obligation to provide a proof. One single experiment that can be reproduced by others with same result is enough. Untill then, when you say you can hear a difference between caps I'll believe you really do but I i will not know what it is that you hear. One ear's "shimmering highs" can be "modulated white noise" to another."

"By a lucky coincidence I spent the whole day yesterday with some engineers who used to work for a major capacitor manufacturer and are enthusiastic tube heads. I mentioned the current discussion and their response was: "Of course there are sonic differences between different signal coupling capacitors, not so much between different types of plastic film but much more between different brands. This is mostly due to variations in manufacturing process. Capacitors are wound from a big drum of foil an winding machines very similar to ones used to wind transformers. There are variations in winding tension, tightness of press-shaping (round cylinders pressed to oval cross section) thermal treatment when sealing the cap etc. Some caps are wound a little loosely and this can produce modulation distortion caused by mechanical vibration. Also, a loosely wound cap will show capacitance value varying with signal amplitude caused by electrostatic forces between foil layers, this translates into phase and harmonic distortions as the signal effectively modulates itself. These phenomena are really very small and not audible on a steady single frequency test signal as our brains tend to treat steady signal similarly to background noise but are audible when using a dynamic multifrequency signal such as music. Our ears are very sensitive to dynamic changes in distortion levels and even very small phaseshifts. We did a series of auditions and measurements which confirmed this. However, we misjudged the audio market at the time and didn't take advantage of the hype."

So, there I got it from real insiders, a physical reason for sonic differences in an audio circuit caused by different capacitors."

[TheAmpNerd]

I have a Silverface Champ that I experiment with because it's so simple a circuit. I swapped four different coupling caps, all the same value, Musicap, Jensen, Auricap, and Mallory, using allegator clips so that the switch was relatively fast. The differences were subtle, but each did sound different, and I found one that I preferred over the others in that circuit. I did the listening with my son, whose hearing (young ears) is amazing, and we both agreed on the audible differences.
Okay and which did you prefer?

[Robal]

Okay and which did you prefer?

It was the Auricap, which suprised me. I suspected I would like the Jensen or the Musicap more, and I was hoping that I would like the Mallory 150 best (it's the cheapest). But, the Auricap was the preferred cap for that amp at that point in the circuit. Any place else, or any other amp, the choice might well be different. I have a Sozo I am going to try next.

[Trout]

Okay and which did you prefer?


That would be a 50% personal taste & 50% personal perception scenario.

I say this because of an amp I tuned specifically for a local musician. He was uncommonly sensitive to higher frequencies and could detect even the smallest amount of related fizz. Simply rolling off the treble knob was not a solution in this case, His amp would loose to much verb anything below dimed.

Over a period of a couple day we swapped out the caps until the amp sounded the way he liked it (Not the way I liked it). To my ears it was terribly muted on the top, to his it was perfect. I ended up using Sozo coupling caps and ceramic brightness cap.

I thought it sounded VERY dull, lifeless and absolutely no sparkle or shimmer.

When I put in the much brighter Sprague's early in the project, he freaked! It was way to bright for his ears.
I have had similar experiences with guys wanting MORE brightness and liveliness.

Psychoacoustics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics) does exist, there is no argument there, but it goes both ways, People who hear no difference* suffer from the same phenomenon as people who only think they hear a difference**

This topic pops up on almost every audio related forum on the web and it seems there are 3 camps,
#1 Those who hear a difference,
#2 Those who hear no difference* and
#3 those who follow the person who beats on his chest loudest.**

Camp #1 here.

Trout

[Nolatone Ampworks]

The only way is to swap them in the same amp and test on the same day.If the tone is improved and only gets better with time,it has worked.

Hey PN, when you say "swap out a set of caps" or "pop in a set of caps", which ones are you referring to? I presume NOT filter caps since they are electrolytics.

There are a lot of caps involved in the overall circuit of some of these amps. Are you referring to certain areas, or all of them, period?

I'd presume we're talking more about coupling caps, right?

[Nolatone Ampworks]

I agree with most of this. But I think in order to effectively determine that the caps do make a difference you'd have both caps (matched for capacitance) plugged into the circuit wired up to a switching device that allows you to switch them quickly. Otherwise the variables are too great, aural memory fades, and the power of suggestion takes over.



I agree with this in the context of most folks playing most gear they are not intimately familiar with, which would be the case usually for an amp tech doing work on a piece for a client.

However, for a gigging musician who has his/her rig dialed up and....WHO CARES ENOUGH ABOUT THEIR TONE TO PAY ATTENTION (that's a BIG part of it, and many folks don't!) would notice differences in how the instrument/amp reacts to their style of playing, in the mix, etc. I know I would. Maybe not the most subtle changes so much, but I would know if something was different, and probably know if I liked it better or not.

That said, I've often thought it would be fun to sneak into the studio at Mercenary Audio, change out caps, etc, in some of that high end gear they sell and use, and see if Fletcher would notice it when he used it!:crazyguy

[phsyconoodler]

The big thing about Sozo's is they require about 50 hrs to break in before they lose that 'muted' sound.Then they seem to bloom harmonically.Sometimes it's not an easy process to really determine if the cap change is worth it or not.Patience is the key here.
I put Aricaps in a Tweed Deluxe and it was awesome sounding.Better to many people's ears than mallory's.

[hasserl]

This topic pops up on almost every audio related forum on the web and it seems there are 3 camps,
#1 Those who hear a difference,
#2 Those who hear no difference* and
#3 those who follow the person who beats on his chest loudest.**

Camp #1 here.

Trout

There is at least one more camp (I wouldn't presume to know all of them), the camp of those that agree that there maybe some audible differences but also realize the power of suggestion is strong enough to make people believe they hear things that don't exist. Who also see wild claims repeated on the internet over and over again, and who are tired of BS claims of magic fairy dust performance enhancers.

Re the examples of pro players that know their gear and have great ears that detect subtle differences, that can't be wrong. Years ago I worked as a heavy equipment mechanic on off-highway earth moving equipment. I realize this is a world that is probably very foreign to most of you. But the operators of that equipment are professional operators that operate the equipment all day, every day, 50 to 60 hours a week. The know every control, the feel of the levers and pedals, everything about the machine very intimately. These guys spend way more time with their gear than ANY musician at ANY level does with his. You want to talk about knowing gear, Eric Johnson has got nothing on a professional equipment operator. I can tell you stories of fooling these guys who were complaining about one performance problem or another, by doing nothing but hitting the sides of the machine with a wrench so the operator would hear the noise and assume a change was being made. They'd go out and try it and come back and say "much better", then go off and work and be happy, when nothing was actually done to the machine. It was the power of suggestion.

Blindfold a person and give them 7Up and tell them it is Coke, and they'll believe you. I never said I don't hear a difference, I said most of the claims made about caps is hype and not real. That the power of suggestion makes up the largest part of the perceived difference. Stick a 10 dollar cap in an amp and tell the person that it sounds "much better", and he'll believe you. Heck, it cost 10 dollars, and everyone on the net says they make your amp sound better, it must be true, right?

Read the OP of this thread, it was posted by someone that is interested in getting into amp building. Someone interested in getting into amp building has a ton of other things to get a grasp on, which will a far greater effect on tone than snake oil caps.

I stand by my statement. You make claims about certain caps, prove them. Otherwise you're selling snake oil. I like the way Alex put it:

The scientific method requires that those who claim existence of a phenomen have obligation to provide a proof. One single experiment that can be reproduced by others with same result is enough. Untill then, when you say you can hear a difference between caps I'll believe you really do but I i will not know what it is that you hear. One ear's "shimmering highs" can be "modulated white noise" to another."

[hasserl]

I say this because of an amp I tuned specifically for a local musician. He was uncommonly sensitive to higher frequencies and could detect even the smallest amount of related fizz. Simply rolling off the treble knob was not a solution in this case, His amp would loose to much verb anything below dimed.

Over a period of a couple day we swapped out the caps until the amp sounded the way he liked it (Not the way I liked it). To my ears it was terribly muted on the top, to his it was perfect. I ended up using Sozo coupling caps and ceramic brightness cap.

I thought it sounded VERY dull, lifeless and absolutely no sparkle or shimmer.

When I put in the much brighter Sprague's early in the project, he freaked! It was way to bright for his ears.

This was bugging me, and I had to respond to it too. I won't say the above didn't happen, but I will say that there has to be a better way to tweak a circuit. Varying the values of certain components in a circuit is the way I would approach it, rather than just changing out the caps to a different brand/type and hope the outcome suits the user. Dude, that's effin crazy!

Spending a couple of days tweaking a circuit to suit a guy, dang, I hope he paid well. I think about a grand for labor, plus parts, plus another couple hundred for aggravation, ought to do it.

[John Phillips]

Varying the values of certain components in a circuit is the way I would approach it, rather than just changing out the caps to a different brand/typeIt depends what change you're trying to achieve.

To me, the effect of different component types is quite different to that of different values.

Different component values change the EQ of the amp. Different types change something more subtle and harder to describe - 'texture' or 'quality' is about as well as I can. Replacing a cap with the same type but a different value will change the EQ but not the quality, and that may not be what you want at all.

[hasserl]

It depends what change you're trying to achieve.

To me, the effect of different component types is quite different to that of different values.

Different component values change the EQ of the amp. Different types change something more subtle and harder to describe - 'texture' or 'quality' is about as well as I can. Replacing a cap with the same type but a different value will change the EQ but not the quality, and that may not be what you want at all.

You'll have to define "quality".

In this case it appears he was dealing with EQ, maybe not? Maybe an intangible or undefined "quality"? Spending a couple of days with a guy tweaking an intangible/undefined "quality"? Holy crap, what an experience that would be. One I could do without.

[John Phillips]

You'll have to define "quality".

n this case it appears he was dealing with EQ, maybe not? Maybe an intangible or undefined "quality"?I can't say for this case, but it isn't the same as EQ. I would call it things like 'shrillness', 'hairiness', 'hardness', 'sterility', 'richness'... things like that. Not quite intangible or undefinable, but not the same as EQ. In technical terms it's almost certainly different types of (including lack of) harmonic distortion, which is caused exactly by the factors VacuumVoodoo posted above - voltage-dependent, frequency-dependent or microphonic changes in capacitance.

Changing the value of the cap for one of the same type changes the whole frequency response, not the harmonic distortion characteristics.

Spending a couple of days with a guy tweaking an intangible/undefined "quality"? Holy crap, what an experience that would be. One I could do without.Absolutely ;). I wouldn't do that either...

What I do is often restore hacked-up old amps - sometimes just repaired by well-meaning techs in the past, but not using the original-type parts. In extreme cases you might find nearly every cap and resistor has been changed - and these amps don't sound bad, but they sound 'modern' for want of a better word.

If you go through and put back the old cap types - which I deliberately acquire, and not NOS either... old used ones of the right type and age, checked for leakage - it's amazing how that old tone comes right back!

I first started doing this out of purely wanting old amps to look right inside - not faking them as untouched, but just a feeling that they should be 'original' - and straight away noticed the difference in sound.

Like I said, if you put an amp in front of me and changed just one cap for a different type, I would probably either not easily be able to tell, or almost certainly not be able to identify the exact type of the new cap. But that's not quite the same as saying caps don't make a difference.

And this is only for high-voltage circuits BTW - I've proved to my own satisfaction that they make no difference in a guitar circuit, as many people think they do. One day when I can get around to it I'm going to fit an amp with several mini-switches and different cap types in important parts of the circuit and see what I learn :).

[TheAmpNerd]

I stand by my statement. You make claims about certain caps, prove them.

I have given you the opportunity to prove it for yourself.

I've informed you what to do.

Now go do it and hear
the result.

AND

I would aslo add that there are different types of techs out there too.
Those used for a fix and those used for tone, they can be the same person.

Adding fuel to the fire!

[phsyconoodler]

It seems we are all a little prone to the 'snake oil' syndrome.I agree with Hasserl and John Phillips for a great majority of what they are saying.
I was a heavy equipment operator for four years and a mechanic for the last 30 years and I do understand the power of suggestion.I have lots of stories about people and their 'noises'.Sometimes they just want the self-assurance that someone qualified has looked at it and their fear is gone.
I have even fallen victim to the power of suggestion.
But I was referring to a 'complete' swap of all coupling caps in an amp,not just one.
Of course a laboratory testing preceedure would be better to really prove if there was a 'remarkable' difference.Like a careful measurement proceedure of the old caps and the new ones.And even such things as controlled temperature.
I do understand that some people take advantage of others when they make claims.Hasserl is an honest tech who doesn't put up with crap and that's a good thing to find these days.

[Trout]

This was bugging me, and I had to respond to it too. I won't say the above didn't happen, but I will say that there has to be a better way to tweak a circuit. Varying the values of certain components in a circuit is the way I would approach it, rather than just changing out the caps to a different brand/type and hope the outcome suits the user. Dude, that's effin crazy!

Spending a couple of days tweaking a circuit to suit a guy, dang, I hope he paid well. I think about a grand for labor, plus parts, plus another couple hundred for aggravation, ought to do it.


Actually, not crazy at all. We all have people we go the extra mile for occasionally. And money is not everyones motive in some cases.

Caps were not the only issue with the amp, But the caps were a good part of it. Once a catastrophic failure occurs, especially on an older vintage amp, it makes no sense to put more 50 year old parts in as a fix when it is the specific tone being sought and not collector appeal.

I do not endorse snake oil products, never have. But when I get a customer with specific needs and he/she knows what their requirements are, It is certainly a good idea to know how to find a solution that best meets the need and or knowing which parts will get you there.

So, we can agree to disagree Cheers:BEER

[PRNDL]

It is well known in the HiFi world that coupling capacitors have a huge influence on sound. But, this is the guitar world, which is VERY different. The style of music and it's fidelity makes a big difference, for example: rock, metal, blues, and jazz.

I used teflon caps in my latest amp. These are HiFi caps that I got with a bunch of Russian paper-in-oil caps, which I've been trying out in an informal "capacitor shootout".

I've noticed a profound difference in the treble with the paper-in-oil caps, vs Mallory 150s.

Right now the amp with the teflon caps sounds very bluesy, but that can (will) change as the teflon caps break in, which can take 50 hours.

[JJman]

I had replaced the brown blob “mid” cap in my ‘74VC a while ago with an OD. I recently replaced the OD with a blue blob because everyone knows that ODs are “sterile” compared to vintage caps. I tried and tried to like the blue blob more than the OD. I took it out and put the OD back in since the OD was a little “smoother.”

Next time I’m gonna put the original brown turd back in to see what happens.

[BK-Amps]

I can hear a difference, and I've driven myself mad trying to understand it. I also think I hear things differently than the Amp Nerd.

My $.02:

-Ceramic is okay in some spots (tone stack/treble peaks) if grainy is what you want.
-Mica is okay if smooth and sheeny is what you want (tone stack)
-Film & foil is good for coupling (prefer polyester)
-Metalized film sounds a little cloudy to me (don't know why).
-Film caps in the treble postion for tone stacks just suck (i.e. 470p wima)
-PIO sounds unorganic but I still want them to sound good so I keep trying them. They're also the prettiest so they get bonus tries.

BK



BK

[kludge]

Another factor to keep in mind with caps... they're microphonic. Remember, a "condenser microphone" is, in fact, a capacitor. So microphonic behavior matters.

[VacuumVoodoo]

Another factor to keep in mind with caps... they're microphonic. Remember, a "condenser microphone" is, in fact, a capacitor. So microphonic behavior matters.

Correct. That's why condenser microphone diaphragms aren't dipped in epoxy:D
However, some types of capacitors can increase an amps tendency for acoustic feedback, this can be tone enhancing but unpredictable or just as easily ruin an otherwise fine amp.

[kludge]

I actually think the microphonic behavior thing explains the "dry" or "dark" sound associated with paper-oil caps. It stands to reason they would be less microphonic than plastic films, or at least differently so.

Different caps are plainly audible to me, and the simpler the amp, the more obvious. I've never understood the whole "parts don't matter" mentality, which seems predicated on "If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist". That's just nonsense. You may as well say the Earth was flat until someone could measure otherwise.

[jezzzz2003]

Oh not this again..:D

[TheAmpNerd]

I had replaced the brown blob “mid” cap in my ‘74VC a while ago with an OD. I recently replaced the OD with a blue blob because everyone knows that ODs are “sterile” compared to vintage caps. I tried and tried to like the blue blob more than the OD. I took it out and put the OD back in since the OD was a little “smoother.”

Next time I’m gonna put the original brown turd back in to see what happens.

When you do, your tone will go to warm and fuzzy. Smear perhaps, these caps aren't the best. You lose some of the edge, detail, etc.

However in an overly bright amp (Fender blues jr) in the right spots
these caps can help smooth the tone and attenuate some of the
brittle nasty high end. A speaker change helps here too.

In summary, changing signal caps in amps is a balancing act.

Good luck and have fun.