new and soliciting help

[fish78]

Hello, I am new to this forum and I need some help. I have what is known as non verbal learning disorder...or NLVD...what this means is my right brain does not kick into gear like most folks'...The problem I am having is seeing the patterns that the notes and chords form...I'm just now trying to learn to play...I can do the fingering OK...but I just don't get the patterns...the way my mind works is that I can't move on until I understand something...I do not get the patterns...is theer an alternate way of learning...non math based...guitar theory?...BTW, I am 55 and this is very important to me at the moment...all help will be appreciated.
Dave

[Ken Ho]

Hello, I am new to this forum and I need some help. I have what is known as non verbal learning disorder...or NLVD...what this means is my right brain does not kick into gear like most folks'...The problem I am having is seeing the patterns that the notes and chords form...I'm just now trying to learn to play...I can do the fingering OK...but I just don't get the patterns...the way my mind works is that I can't move on until I understand something...I do not get the patterns...is theer an alternate way of learning...non math based...guitar theory?...BTW, I am 55 and this is very important to me at the moment...all help will be appreciated.
Dave

Do you mean that you can't read chord charts, or that scale patterns etc don't really make sense to you ?
If it's the latter, then welcome to the club of the majority.
There is not always a "logic" to scale patterns, that's just how they turn out when you follow a given scale, which again, does not necessarily have a mathmatical logic to it.
A minor scale just happens to contain a flatted third, there is no physical reason for it to be that way, it's just how we emotionally respond to it.
There was a great article by Richard Lloyd in a Guitar World a few months ago (look for Jack White on the cover), which has as good an explanation of the relationship to how we responf to noes, and the physics of how a guitar string vibrates. Beyond that, you may be best off leaning note patterns and just accepting that's how it is, rather than looking for a deper reason or order to those patterns. It works for me.

[fish78]

Do you mean that you can't read chord charts, or that scale patterns etc don't really make sense to you ?
If it's the latter, then welcome to the club of the majority.
There is not always a "logic" to scale patterns, that's just how they turn out when you follow a given scale, which again, does not necessarily have a mathmatical logic to it.
A minor scale just happens to contain a flatted third, there is no physical reason for it to be that way, it's just how we emotionally respond to it.
There was a great article by Richard Lloyd in a Guitar World a few months ago (look for Jack White on the cover), which has as good an explanation of the relationship to how we responf to noes, and the physics of how a guitar string vibrates. Beyond that, you may be best off leaning note patterns and just accepting that's how it is, rather than looking for a deper reason or order to those patterns. It works for me.
Yes, the latter...the problem is my brain will not just accept without seeing the logic or at least the reasoning for it...it prevents me from moving forward until I do understand it.

[Ken Ho]

Then try that srticle by Richard LLoyd. TBH, I'm still struggling with this after 27 yrs. I can read the theory and scales etc and it all makes perfect sense and it has the sticking power of wishful thinking in a tornado.
You know, to get your "right brain" working, you are better off abandoning labels and logic as those things are very "left brain".
Actually, dynamic brain imaging shows that both sides of the brain are equally active during both intelectual and artistic activities, so that old left/right brain thing is only useful as far as defining patterns of thought and behaviour, and has no use in changing those things. Tone deaf is tone deaf, I should know.

[gainiac]

Yes, the latter...the problem is my brain will not just accept without seeing the logic or at least the reasoning for it...it prevents me from moving forward until I do understand it.

How do you do with colors?

[fish78]

Then try that srticle by Richard LLoyd. TBH, I'm still struggling with this after 27 yrs. I can read the theory and scales etc and it all makes perfect sense and it has the sticking power of wishful thinking in a tornado.
You know, to get your "right brain" working, you are better off abandoning labels and logic as those things are very "left brain".
Actually, dynamic brain imaging shows that both sides of the brain are equally active during both intelectual and artistic activities, so that old left/right brain thing is only useful as far as defining patterns of thought and behaviour, and has no use in changing those things. Tone deaf is tone deaf, I should know.
Not tone deaf...it is difficult to explain...this is a neuralogical issue with the right side of my brain...the symptoms are akin to Aspergers and, in fact, the two may be related...things that requiir spatial conception are a mystery...I am just not getting the relationships that should be apparant...looking for some learning technique that breaks the theory down and is sequenced rather than gestalt...if that makes any sense...

[fish78]

How do you do with colors?
If by that, you mean can I recognize colors correctly, the answer is yes. If do you mean, do I have color preferences, the answer is also yes. As a matter of fact, you question illustrates a large part of my problem...it is ambiguous to me...I really don'y know what was meant...so, maybe you can see why I have difficulty following guitar instruction.

[Facemelt]

What about something like Fretboard logic? That addresses patterns without meaning..... kind of. Have you tried that kind of thing?

[willhutch]

Not being experts in NVLD, it is hard to help. From a purely theoretical perspective, based on no expertise whatsoever, it seems you might be able to find a mental pathway that works for you. Instead of being frustrated with those things that your particluar brain makes difficult, perhaps you can find a way to relate to the instrument in a way that makes sense to you. Who knows - maybe the workings of your brain allows you to make connections that most people don't.

I think the way many guitarists approach music through patterns and the geometry of the instrument is something that hinders our long-term development. Maybe you can have better progress if you forget about the mathmatical side of instrument and let your ears guide you.

If you are just starting at age 55, it tells me you want to play simply to harvest some joy from making music. If that is correct, I recommend you try not to worry about the patterns and logic and try to find the music in the instrument - by whatever mental pathway works for you.

Hope this doesn't totally miss the mark.

[fish78]

What about something like Fretboard logic? That addresses patterns without meaning..... kind of. Have you tried that kind of thing?
Thanks, I will check it out.

[fish78]

Not being experts in NVLD, it is hard to help. From a purely theoretical perspective, based on no expertise whatsoever, it seems you might be able to find a mental pathway that works for you. Instead of being frustrated with those things that your particluar brain makes difficult, perhaps you can find a way to relate to the instrument in a way that makes sense to you. Who knows - maybe the workings of your brain allows you to make connections that most people don't.

I think the way many guitarists approach music through patterns and the geometry of the instrument is something that hinders our long-term development. Maybe you can have better progress if you forget about the mathmatical side of instrument and let your ears guide you.

If you are just starting at age 55, it tells me you want to play simply to harvest some joy from making music. If that is correct, I recommend you try not to worry about the patterns and logic and try to find the music in the instrument - by whatever mental pathway works for you.

Hope this doesn't totally miss the mark.
My main motivation is to make music, yes, but there is the additional aspect of just being able to do it...taught myself golf at age 35...was down to a singlr didget handicap in 3 yrs...losts of fits and starts, but once I figured it out...I knew what to ask my body to do...this mucic thing is a different sort of problem...I can watch somebody play and then can sort of mimic it, but I have no clue as to what or why I am doing...I need that to let the music that is in my head out...sorry if I am not making much sense...

[Ken Ho]

Not tone deaf...it is difficult to explain...this is a neuralogical issue with the right side of my brain...the symptoms are akin to Aspergers and, in fact, the two may be related...things that requiir spatial conception are a mystery...I am just not getting the relationships that should be apparant...looking for some learning technique that breaks the theory down and is sequenced rather than gestalt...if that makes any sense...

Sounds like me, I have a completely crap abilty to conceptualise things spatially.
Also, I am a small chunk learner, as opposed to a large chunk, which is what I think you mean by the sequence rather than gestalt. I am a very adept learner despite this, I just know what I have to do to learn stuff, and I go straight to small chunks, and resist any attempts by anybody to teach me big chunks.
The tone deaf comment was really refelcting on the idea that some people seem to be able to establish the musical relaitonships easily and for others it's a struggle. I'm in the struggle group.
Guitar is one instrument you can play an awful lot of without any theory knowledge at all. While it is very valuable, it is not actually necessary.
Maybe you would be best just learnig to play rather than worrying too much about theory.
A good teacher who does things in small chunks would be your best bet.

Guitar is , after all, the instrument of anarchy, the one that breaks all the rules.

[fish78]

Here is the thing with me:
All of the music instruction I have seen is based on these spatial, patterns and I just can't "SEE" them....I need a verbal description and an auditory description...like a lecture...that is SEQUENTIAL...so that I can see a linear outline or map if you will of where I am going...I think this is a round about way of saying I need the concepts of the theory imbedded BEFORE I get the pieces...I need to see what the pieces build before I can relate then to each other. What I am seeking is a course of Instruction that give me that...any clues?

[Ken Ho]

Here is the thing with me:
All of the music instruction I have seen is based on these spatial, patterns and I just can't "SEE" them....I need a verbal description and an auditory description...like a lecture...that is SEQUENTIAL...so that I can see a linear outline or map if you will of where I am going...I think this is a round about way of saying I need the concepts of the theory imbedded BEFORE I get the pieces...I need to see what the pieces build before I can relate then to each other. What I am seeking is a course of Instruction that give me that...any clues?

What you are describing is a lesson, tailored to your needs, by an experienced teacher. Again, don't get too hung up on theory, it's wonderful stuff but all the theory in the world won't tell you which note to play when.
I don't really memorise patterns at all, beyond a few basic ones, but if you really want to go there, you can always put some sticky dots on the fretboard.
Seriously, while there are a lot of patterns you can use on a guitar, that is only one way to approach it. Learning intervals and scale forms is another, plain mimicry is another.


Read this other thread on here, a lot that is in there will be helpful to you

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=329958


especially Post #48 by Gene.

[Facemelt]

You know what helps me more than anything? Finding people willing to play with me. I get so much out of watching another person play and asking them why they did something or just noticing them using a familiar chord shape slightly differently and getting an amazing and unexpected sound from it. For me it is like watering a garden. The inspiration and ideas grow from it.

[fish78]

Originally Posted by violetlove http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=3533625#post3533625)
Start a thread, and I'll yak to you all day. I get bored at work, and the only window is the compuiter screen.
It was my very first thread here.
Quote:
In what way are you lost ??
I don't want to sound too Rumsfeldian, but that is an unknown unknowable...that is, none of it makes SENSE to me...everything from the labeling of the strings to naming a note by its relative postion to other notes intead of its pitch....
Quote:

Let me guess, you are either not having lessons, because someone filled your head with stuff about how certain great guitarists did not have lessons, or with the idea that lessons stifle natural creativity.
No, I just can't find a teacher willing or capable of translating the nomenclature to me in a way I can understand it...there seems to be no linear approach...by that I mean "this is a Guitar, it has 6 strings and straight down the line...the first thing teachers want to show me are chords with nothing to relate them to...logic tells me that if there are 12 notes, those should be learned first...wherever they occur....if there are 73 "Cs" They should be identified, the same for the other 11 notes...then maybe chords might make some sense.
Quote:

Or maybe you thinkthe fretting hand is the important one, and have not developed your voicing/picking/strumming hand ?
No, I realize it takes both hands and each must be trained to do its job.
Quote:

Read sheet music/tab ??
Read tab note positions, but don't know what teh squiggles mean ??
No, I only read English and charts and diagrams are a mystery to me...
Quote:

I dunno, not trying to be insulting, but those are the common things that block development.
You are not insulting at all, I need to be treated as if I am from Mars and have never seen, heard or even conceived of a musical intrument...most teachers...all I have encountered...do not start that simply and do not progress in a linear or logical fashion...not logical to me at least...the books are worse yet...Oh, yeah, and if you change from standard tuning...(A-440) then the place where you find all of the notes has changed....I guess, I just have too many "why" questions and folks think I am trying to argue, when all I am trying to do is understand.

[jefesq]

might want to try some of the truefire stuff. They approach it with patterns and sounds I think

http://truefire.com/index2.html

[fish78]

might want to try some of the truefire stuff. They approach it with patterns and sounds I think

http://truefire.com/index2.html

Might be a good program, but I could make no sense of the web site...I think what I need is a straight narrative approach with no diagrams...start with the first string...name all of the notes along the fret board...repeat with each string until all notes and locations are covered...explain how combining these notes makes music...explain how to do this...in other words a step by step approach in English, with no diagrams or charts and then progress in a logical fashion with chords, strumming etc...but must be linear and not jump all over the place for me to understand it...I can find nothing that takes this approach.

[fish78]

What approach to teachers take with handicapped students?...although not a true handicap my NLVD makes learning by visuals difficult...I learn best by have a lecture and a suplemental text with few or no diagrams....you ought to see me try to hook up a DVD with the instructions? they give.....a complete joke...I have to talk it out...its annoying for others at work too....

[Deuce007]

Fish, find a good teacher and take some lessons and also maybe learn tabliture, i think this is your best route.

With a good teacher you will get lecture and supplemental text, meaning he should write your lessons down for you for the week, also keep your lessons no more than a 1/2 hour to start and only one lesson a week.

I will also add that my teacher used to tape record every lesson so i could use it as a reference during the week while practicing, a cheap cassette recorder will suffice.

[Ken Ho]

OK, gotcha now.

Humans are usually marvellously good at pattern recognition. You clearly are not.
Troble is, pretty much every teaching method or guitar is designed around pattern recognition. Guitar is actually really well suited to this, as there are all sorts of repeatable patterns for scales and chords etc.
Teachers are going to have trouble teaching you systematically, because all teh systems are pattern based.

You need to do one of two things....

Find somwhere that you can read up on teh physics of a vibrating string and learn why after A = 440 Hz, B + what is does, and why there are 8 notes in an octave etc. The Read Richard LLoyd on why a guitar is tuend the way it is


or


Forget theory altogether, and just learn songs from tabs


Option B is likely to be quicker and way more fun.

I'm pretty sure I could teach you in person, but over the net, not likely to happen.

[fish78]

Doesn't tabluture rely on diagrams? So far the Nashville number system makes the most sense to me, but it does require basic knowledge of chords first...It just seems to me that is somewhat backwards...I am off on my own Journey to learn where all the notes fall on the fret board first and then I think chprds will make sense...

[JonR]

Doesn't tabluture rely on diagrams? So far the Nashville number system makes the most sense to me, but it does require basic knowledge of chords first...It just seems to me that is somewhat backwards...I am off on my own Journey to learn where all the notes fall on the fret board first and then I think chprds will make sense...If it's something sequential you're after, how about this:

Think one string at a time.
Take the 6th string (what we call the "bottom" string because it sounds lowest, although it's physically at the top). This produces an "E" note.
The natural notes (= white notes of the piano, or "C major scale"), then run up the string in the following order:

Fret 0 (open string) = E
fret 1 = F
fret 3 = G
fret 5 = A
fret 7 = B
fret 8 = C
fret 10 = D
fret 12 = E (again)

(No need to go beyond 12th fret, because the series repeats.)

The important thing to grasp is that there 2 frets (tone, or whole step) between every pair of notes, except B-C and E-F.

Now, the next string is A (tuned to the 5th fret on the E string), and the notes on that string carry on up in the same way - 2 frets between every pair of notes, except B-C and E-F. (This time I'll use a diagram, so say if this is worse or better for you.)
A or 5th string
Frets: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Notes: A . B C . D . E F . G . A
Now here's the 4th or D string, which starts from the same note as the 5th fret on the A string:
D or 4th string
Frets: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Notes: D . E F . G . A . B C . DThe G string:
G or 3rd string
Frets: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Notes: G . A . B C . D . E F . GThe B string, which starts from same note as 4th fret on the G:
B or 2nd string
Frets: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Notes: B C . D . E F . G . A . BAnd lastly, the top E string, which you can see has the same notes as the bottom E, only 2 octaves higher:
E, 1st or top string
Frets: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Notes: E F . G . A . B C . D . EWe could display the notes available on guitar like this (again stopping at 12th fret), showing how most of them occur on more than one string:
Notes: E F . G . A . B C . D . E F . G . A . B C . D . E F . G . A . B C . D . E
6th string: |______________________
5th string: |_______________________
4th string: |________________________
3rd string: |________________________
2nd string: |________________________
1st string: |________________________
Now, the patterns we get when we make scale patterns or chord shapes using all the strings are all totally coincidental, and are a result of the way the notes on each string are staggered by 5 (or 4 frets) as shown above. They don't mean anything musically. Those with visual learning methods find them useful, of course.

Eg, if we want to play a C chord, we need the notes C, E and G (1st, 3rd and 5th counted from C). So we find them where we can, which is where this shape arises:
0|---|---|---| = E
|-0-|---|---| = C
0|---|---|---| = G
|---|-0-|---| = E
|---|---|-0-| = C
|---|---|---|IOW, if you can understand the linear structure of scales (major scale = W-W-H-W-W-W-H in steps, or 2-2-1-2-2-2-1 in frets) ... and the linear structure of chords (1st, 3rd and 5th notes from a scale) - then you are actually in a better position in many ways than someone just learning visual patterns.

For example, here's the C major scale on the B string:
Frets: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
C . D . E F . G . A . B C
And here's the A major scale on the A string - notice the same step structure, giving the familiar "do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do" sound, but starting on a different note:Frets: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Notes: A . B . C# D . E . F# . G# A
Of course, it would be impractical to play tunes up and down one string :rolleyes: - which is why the guitar has 6, and why they are tuned in that staggered way: so we can play scales ACROSS the strings, 3 notes per string, without moving our hand.

In short, if you can learn where all the notes are, you don't need patterns. And you may well be a better musician in the end.

(Let me know if the above helped. As a teacher, I'm always interested in how different people learn, and what methods help.)

[fish78]

Jon, the narrative helped emensely...the diagrams I am going to have to study to make sense of them...but that is the exact approach I am looking for.

[fish78]

Fret 0 (open string) = E
fret 1 = F
fret 3 = G
fret 5 = A
fret 7 = B
fret 8 = C
fret 10 = D
fret 12 = E (again)
This is by far the easier format for me....