Rules for TGP Bedroom Amp Sharing? [Archive]

View Full Version : Rules for TGP Bedroom Amp Sharing?

stvnscott

01-07-2008, 01:01 PM

How do we go about passing these amps around among TGP members? I have 3 basic concerns:

1. That the amps won't vanish without a trace
2. That the schematics won't end up on the internet
3. That they won't be damaged

I would like to start a list of people who want to try the Wrecktified amp and a separate list for the Black Face amp.

What criteria should be out there for those who are on the list(s)?

Must be a member of TGP for 6 months, know someone else on the board personally, have a minimum of 500 posts, not be a member of the secret amp forum, and not be a manufacturer? I dunno. I'm just throwing things around here. What do you guys think?

dayn

01-07-2008, 01:35 PM

What is the "secret amp forum?"

RC2

01-07-2008, 01:48 PM

I guess

RC2

01-07-2008, 01:49 PM

I'd better

RC2

01-07-2008, 01:50 PM

get my post count up!!

stvnscott

01-07-2008, 01:51 PM

The secret amp forum is a group of guys who are secretly cloning current production booteek amps like /13, Dr Z, and Komet. I have the link on my other computer, but you can't see what they are up to without logging in.

Guitar Josh

01-07-2008, 01:53 PM

I have 20+ TGP refs, am a contributing member, and have 1500 posts, you can trust me :D

wsaraceni

01-07-2008, 02:39 PM

unfortunately, i think its hard to enforce any of those things. best bet would probably be limit it to approx 20 people or so. ask for everyone that requests send an email to you. the first 20 names you recognize and dont see an issue with get in. the rest, maybe can get onboard the 2nd time.

pat

01-07-2008, 03:53 PM

I wouldn't really be a suitable candidate for testing but I've been interested in the project so I'll humbly offer these suggestions to address each issue:

1. That the amps won't vanish without a trace.
Have each participant submit a credit card based "security deposit". Since you own a company I suspect you could easily process that. The fee could simply be refunded once the participant has returned the amp or be applied to the purchase if the participant decides to order one.

For distribution, you could use the "FedEx" model and serve as the "hub" for the unit. All shipments go from your shop to a participant. The participant then returns the unit to you (they pay return shipping) after an agreed upon period of "review" time. This serves several purposes:

a) Shipping costs are more equitable as you are paying the same as they are for the shipment inbound and out. Eliminates the possibility of one participant paying for shipping coast to coast whereas another may only have to pay for a local delivery if the unit was moving from participant to participant. I imagine this might not sit well with some.

b) Establishes a "chain of custody" so that if it does disappear you know where it actually was last. Also addresses concern Number 3 in that you can check the unit for damage when it is returned before sending it out again.

2. That the schematics won't end up on the internet
Lock the chassis or cabinet in such a way that attempting to open it or remove it will only be possible by destroying or heavily damaging the unit. May be ugly but who cares, it's a demo unit. Maybe using those "tamper proof" (ha ha) torx screws or even better yet just using some sort of real locking mechanism like a hasp and lock to prevent the back of the cabinet from being opened or the chassis from being removed. Put a piece of black plexi or something over the open portion of the chassis if it is visible by other means (sticking a mirror or digital camera into the unit). How about that tamper proof tape that is used on some products?

3. That they won't be damaged
Build a reusable shipping crate that must be used for each shipment. If the participant doesn't use the shipping crate when it is returned to you they lose their deposit. As previously mentioned, if the unit always returns to you it can be checked before being sent back out.

Finally, to cover all of the above, a clearly written and legally binding "Terms of Use" contract a participant must agree to and sign stating the terms as outlined above e.g. the "must use the shipping container" thing, the deposit, won't copy or distribute the circuit, etc.

This all may seem excessive to some but even among friends disagreements can turn ugly. If everybody knows and agrees to the rules there is really not much room for argument.

I, as I suspect many members do, really appreciate the time and money you have put into this project and wouldn't want to see that squashed by some problem that could be avoided. You are willing to send several pieces of equipment conservatively worth over $1000.00 each to people's doorsteps so they can try it for FREE (okay, cost of shipping). I would hope that any participants would appreciate this and not quibble over rules intended to protect against someone taking advantage of your work and generosity.

My 3 cents (2008 rate increase).

dayn

01-07-2008, 03:53 PM

I won't need to test the Wreck...I just want sound and video clips of the amp being played. I want to hear the clean to mean with touch dynamics and volume knob control, bloom, feedback, etc.

dayn

01-07-2008, 03:55 PM

What pat said.

Hacksaw

01-07-2008, 04:21 PM

I would like to hear it in person. I would like to test drive the Wrecktified amp and see how it does in the bedroom. I am very interested in this amp from the beginning.

S2amps, if you decide not to send out the amp for test drives, let me know if it is OK to come see you in Tx on a Saturday..

Thanks!

Rik

phatster

01-07-2008, 05:34 PM

I would like to test it as well but well conceived video clips would suffice for me.The guy who does the TW videos{geetarplayer} would be a great test since he knows the real thing and is a solid player!I'm gettin more excited!

dayn

01-07-2008, 08:03 PM

I agree...send it to Glen for his opinion (Geetarpicker).

stvnscott

01-07-2008, 09:10 PM

I agree...send it to Glen for his opinion (Geetarpicker).

Yeah. I have his CD. Actually, it has become a permanent resident in my car's CD changer. And it is rigged so that if the CD is ever removed, the car self-destructs. I really like that CD! I hope to get him on the rotation somewhere. Glen? Are you listening? Can you hear it ring?

amp boy

01-07-2008, 09:22 PM

i would like to hear these amps, but listen too your concerns...that i agree with whole heartedly, see if you can limit it in the state your in.
You can get valid address, and even meet in person perhaps.
maybe you can swap amps, and then they'll know the condition of their own amp...hahahhaa.....

i would consider some local tests first............it also eliminates nation wide shipping error and cost. i think the duty to come into Canada would be like me paying for a quarter of the amp....i might as well just buy it by then...hahhaa.......
best hopes with this.

stvnscott

01-07-2008, 09:30 PM

Thanks for the ideas, guys.

I'm trying to send the amps around to as many people as I can without too many rules or restrictions or cost or bureaucracy without exposing myself to undue risk. I want you guys (and gals) to play them, enjoy them, record them, critique them, criticize them, whatever you want as much as humanly possible. I don't care if they are on the circuit for 6 months or more. I just want to be sure I'll get them back in the end and I won't have the rug pulled out from under me by some unscrupulous minority.

Honestly, I had intended to do one of these as a "project" and release the schematic to the public. That was before I had my arm twisted to sell them (and spend the time and money to design 5 or 6 of them). Now I can't very well release the schematic any more than Mike Zaite can...

I think 99% of you are honorable folks who won't mind paying $10 to $20 shipping (and I'm tempted to send along my DHL or UPS account number to cover it for you) to get to play with a booteek amp for a week or so with no other strings attached. I think the vast majority of you will play nicely and follow the "rules" with a nod and a handshake. I've met several of you at guitar shows and amp fests and think you are great folks. But I've been burned by the 1% and don't care to get burned again.

So without going nuts with verification and CC numbers, how can we orchestrate this thing? I don't want to send amps only to people who can afford a $500 hold on their CC. I want to send amps to every honorable person on this board. How can we make that happen?

Groovey Records

01-07-2008, 09:37 PM

stvnscott

01-07-2008, 09:57 PM

Making the Amp Available to Members who have made a donation to TGP. Not enough people do. In fact only 3 people on this thread have. And your not one of them.

Joe Tee
President of the How to win Friends and Influence People School of Thought

Actually, I **AM** one of them. My moniker simply does not reflect it. Here's a copy and paste of the most recent one:

https://www.paypalobjects.com/WEBSCR-495-20080103-1/en_US/i/scr/pixel.gifTransaction Details

https://www.paypalobjects.com/WEBSCR-495-20080103-1/en_US/i/scr/pixel.gifhttps://www.paypalobjects.com/WEBSCR-495-20080103-1/en_US/i/scr/pixel.gif
Web Accept Payment Sent (ID # 0G665947HW1421xxx)

Name:
Brian Scherzer (The recipient of this payment is Verified)Email:
b.scherzer@xxxx.net
Total Amount:
-$xxx.00 USD
Item Amount:
xxx.00 USDShipping:
$0.00 USDHandling:
$0.00 USDQuantity:
1Item Title:
Donation To The Gear PageItem Number:
Gear Page DonationDate:
Dec. 24, 2007Time:
11:07:31 PSTStatus:
Completedhttps://www.paypalobjects.com/WEBSCR-495-20080103-1/en_US/i/scr/pixel.gif Shipping Address:
No Address Provided
Funding Type:
PayPal FundsFunding Source:
xxx.00 USD - PayPal Account

And the contraction for "you are" is spelled "you're."

trucks

01-07-2008, 10:18 PM

How do we go about passing these amps around among TGP members? I have 3 basic concerns:

1. That the amps won't vanish without a trace
2. That the schematics won't end up on the internet
3. That they won't be damaged

Given that the amp is worth in excess of 1K, I think some assurances are reasonable. Why not have members send you a fax with some piece of id with their address (cable bill, etc), agree to pay for any damage while in their possession or if shipping rules are not followed and sign a simple non-disclosure to cover the circuit?

'Course preference should be given to your old customers. :AOK

will132

01-08-2008, 12:47 AM

rocketman223

01-08-2008, 06:07 AM

Perhaps you could consider sending them to Jason Barker (steelbender.com). He has done some really cool reviews. I'm not associated with him at all, but his website gear reviews and clips are cool. He is a good player too so you don't have to worry about bad playing defiling one of your amps.

Maybe send one up to the Detroit Ampfest in March where there will be a larger variety of speakers etc., as it could lead to a better evaluation.

I will also add that I think your offer, in any form, is righteous!

zion

01-08-2008, 06:26 AM

PM'd you...

mprvise

01-08-2008, 06:46 AM

r9player

01-08-2008, 06:57 AM

I'd be interested in trying the Wrecktified one.
Um but maybe, depending on your location you should just have some sort of 'Ampfest'?

T.Wesley

01-08-2008, 07:01 AM

I know - send it to me, and anybody that wants to can come check it out :)

OK seriously.

Pat's "hub" idea is a pain in the ass, but IMHO is the safest method for making sure the amp stays available, uncopied, and protected in shipping.

Making the Amp Available to Members who have made a donation to TGP. Not enough people do. In fact only 3 people on this thread have. And your not one of them.
The only problem with that is that anybody can change their title - for instance, I'm a contributor, yet "Contributing Member" is not my title.

--chiba

phatster

01-08-2008, 07:14 AM

Love the grammar correction,you being the politician again!!

stvnscott

01-08-2008, 09:03 AM

Love the grammar correction,you being the politician again!!

I never claimed to be PC!

Groovey Records

01-08-2008, 09:45 AM

How does that work _ no moniker recognition?
Thought it was automatic.

I'm sorry I singled you out..
but I still think it would be a suitable provision for lending an amp using the TGP trademark as a pseudo moniker.

That would be a nice gesture.

Your Amps look promising, gramaticly correct and extremly well punctuated.

Joe Tee
President of the I stuck my foot in my mouth while having good intentions club.

phatster

01-08-2008, 09:50 AM

Your moniker is hilarious...you got "staying power"!!

Hacksaw

01-08-2008, 11:27 AM

And if you decide to have it sent here let me know! (BTW - I know Rik personally and the amp would be safe with him :AOK)

Thanks for the kind words, mprvise! And same goes for you.

This makes two from Tulsa who would love to try the amp. :)

gkelm

01-08-2008, 12:08 PM

Steven-
I appreciate your desire to get these out to players...but I suppose the wider the distribution, the greater chance of one of your 3 concerns materializing.

I'd say for starters, try to get it to Glenn Geetpicker & the Steel Stringer guy...good video demos would satisfy a lot of guys...a little YOUTUBE goes a long way. :)

Otherwise, use good judgement on who gets in. I've participated in a couple pedal tours. It's a good idea to only send the next guy's shipping info to anybody, and set up good ground rules at the start.

Greg

stvnscott

01-08-2008, 05:52 PM

Hey, Greg!

If you promise not to electrocute yourself, you can try the amps right now. Meet me at GC sometime this week?

STLBlues

01-08-2008, 06:11 PM

I'm not a frequent poster, and would not be an ideal tester anyway since I don't have recording equipment available.

My spelling, grammar, and punctuation are stellar however! :D

As long as someone that uses a strat can post some clips putting the amps through their paces, that's all I'll really need to make my decision. Video would be even better as someone has already mentioned.

I don't normally get too carried away, but I'm gassing over the mini wreck!

gkelm

01-09-2008, 05:45 AM

Hey, Greg!

If you promise not to electrocute yourself, you can try the amps right now. Meet me at GC sometime this week?

I promise...I'll bring my rubber gloves and Mickey Mouse boots. :)

stvnscott

01-09-2008, 02:28 PM

I can meet you Thursday or Friday. Just be sure to be sportin' the MM boots!

pcutt

01-09-2008, 06:48 PM

Here are some ideas on how to manage the risk so the 1% bad guys don't spoil things for the 99% good guys.

- Publicly post the current recipient's TGP nickname and/or real name, maybe even mailing address.
- Start the sharing with someone you personally know and trust. Then only share the amp with someone he personally knows and trusts. There should be enough trusted personal relationships to get the loaners into enough people's hands to get you off the ground.
- Have a blog for recipients to post to. Be sure that they use their TGP nickname. This could also be a focal point for the project, including sharing of recordings, discussion, suggestions, etc.
- Maybe only send to trusted people who must host tonefests.

Thanks for taking the initiative on the amps! This is a great project!

Hacksaw

01-09-2008, 07:28 PM

Here are some ideas on how to manage the risk so the 1% bad guys don't spoil things for the 99% good guys.

- Publicly post the current recipient's TGP nickname and/or real name, maybe even mailing address.

ooops.. not a good idea on real name and mailing address.. This would be telling everyone where it is! yes, even the dishonest. along with the the demo amp, The rest of my gear becomes a possible target. No thank you

whoismarykelly

01-09-2008, 08:14 PM

Im generally opposed to this whole scheme where Im suspect for "stealing" a design just because Im an interested customer that wants to try the amp before buying.

pcutt

01-09-2008, 08:39 PM

GTRJohnny

01-10-2008, 10:57 PM

I'd love to try it out. I'd agree to not open it, I'd send it insured and protected, and everything else. I have no problem Paypaling a deposit, or something, to be transfered back once the next person has signed for it.

I think those who want to be involved would have to send all info to S2, and the schedule/order, shipping info, etc. would have to be managed by S2. The only way for others to not know addresses would be for it to make a hop back to S2 each time. Personally, I don't care, but then I don't own ultra high $$$ gear. So, I get the concern...

Hacksaw

01-11-2008, 12:18 AM

Rik, good point. I was thinking about that but I wanted to bring up the point for the sake of completion and discussion. I was trying to see how to provide info about the recipient to keep the bad guys from hiding under a cloak of anonymity.

always good to think right!??

I was thinking the credit card small deposit.. builder charges oh.. I dunno, 10 bucks just to check the card and then have it on file for the trial until returned.

The guts.. I saw a picture of the amp in another thread so I guess the circuit is out there... ? if there are things a builder doesnt want stolen, one could cover with black paint or silicone so it cant be seen without destruction.. then the builder would know someone has been in it and proceed accordingly.

I dunno, maybe video clips are the answer. only thing is we dont get the actual feel of the amp..

even with the video clips.. at that point I will wait for reviews.. its all good.

phatster

01-11-2008, 07:15 AM

Once again I vote we use designated folks.ie..Glen.. to give it a spin THEN put together a pass-around.I would also Heavily discount the initial offering to TGP members!

IIIBOOMERIII

01-11-2008, 08:11 AM

As someone who is not interested in this amp in any way, shape, or form; I feel I can offer some unbiased opinions.

A - Why not “rent” the amp out to people who want to play it. Renters must pay shipping to and from the owner of the amp. This will weed out the wishy washy. Let’s say the rental fee for three days is $50 plus 2 day shipping both to and from said amp owner. This creates a one week turnaround.

B – Rental fees must be paid via credit card. Part of the rental agreement should state that if something happens to the amp, it automatically gets charged to the person who rented it.

C – Make the fee for the “lost” amp about $3,000 and a penalty of $1,000 for non return of rented merchandise.

D – Publicly out the person who kept the amp, there handle, and their real identity. This way only the person who broke the chain has their information made public. If the amp is legitimately stolen, the renters home insurance should cover the loss. If the amp is stolen during transit, shipping insurance should cover it.

I think all these things would chase off the lookers and keep in the serious prospective buyers. Not to mention the reviews and sound clips that would come out of all this. Of course all of the figures that are used can be scaled up or down to fit the situation.

To make the chassis contents secured you could do a few things. For Fender style straps you could secure the straps with the screws as you normally would, and the drill out the center of the Phillips head till it is smooth or you could tack weld the screw to the strap. Either way, tampering would become very difficult; attempts to tamper with the screws would become very evident. You could always use a chisel later on to remove the screw heads.

An even easier solution would be to paint the circuit board and all it’s contents with black paint or pigmented epoxy(hhhmmm where have I heard that before).

Eddie

dayn

01-11-2008, 11:49 AM

New idea on this...

Why not ship the amp out with a try/buy policy. First guy gets it, plays it, and either...

likes it and buys it, or

Ships it to the next guy.

If it gets purchased, S2 sends the next build out to the next guy on the list with the same policy.

Can't do that forever, but I imagine playing it, loving it, wanting to buy it, and then having to ship it off and be told that they will not be available for a few months because a bunch of people want to try it out then it takes time to produce.

May not work but just a thought.

I think the best scenario is for S2 to make sound and video clips and post them for all to see/hear. Also, pick one or two guys (Glen if he is interested) who will demo them for the rest of us and do video/sound clips.

Glen's original Trainwreck Express clip is what got me into the Trainwreck sound in the first place...why not have him do some clips since it is basically "his sound" that a lot of us are after, just at bedroom levels.

Crikey

01-11-2008, 07:32 PM

What a great image that is! I'd LOVE to be there when anything with wreckish kind of tone was played at a GC . . . they wouldn't know what hit 'em!

:dude

Crikey

Hey, Greg!

If you promise not to electrocute yourself, you can try the amps right now. Meet me at GC sometime this week?

Bo Faulkner

01-11-2008, 07:42 PM

I'd like to try them all myself!

stvnscott

01-12-2008, 07:09 AM

What a great image that is! I'd LOVE to be there when anything with wreckish kind of tone was played at a GC . . . they wouldn't know what hit 'em!

:dude

Crikey

That does make for a nice image, but sadly we met outside. We were afraid the good tone Nazis would try to confiscate the flux capacitor and force us to play PODs for 3 hours.

Greg did look pretty fetching in those Mickey Mouse boots, though!

KCWM

01-23-2008, 09:07 AM

I don't qualify if the posts or join date is enforced. I just don't post as much as I could and often don't post when I want to. I plan on contributing to TGP shortly.

I'd be interested in trying out the blackface amp. I've only met one person off of this board and that was relatively brief.