Curious: Amp prices increase....WHY?

[voodoosound]

After running an inventory yesterday and totaling prices for insurance purposes I have noticed that my receipts from amps in the last 18 months have gone up on averagte about $1000. After looking around here in the classified section it seems the normal price of a comparable amp that sold only 18 months ago for say 2200-2500 is now in the range of 3200-3500. My question is WHY? Also, I don't understand why some folks think that their 89 SLO (example) should pull the same amount of dough as a 2006. Not saying one is better than the other in most cases I would rather have the 89 but just because Soldano is asking close to 4000 for a new slo it is not really honest to put in your ad "These sell for almost 4000". That is incorrect. The fact is in 89 that particular amp sold for $1600 new. Just food for thought.

[Squigglefunk]

if the retail price goes up, the used price goes up.

As for prices going up, it's happening everywhere. Wheat is almost $10 a bushel now up from $3 a few years ago. WHY ?!?!?

[voodoosound]

Not only that... The US dollar isn't worth what it use to be.

Well then it would make sense if we were buying amps from outside the US. But when US buyers are buying US built amps supposedly made of US parts what does the value of the dollar have to do with it? It makes since to me that a Mad Profesor sells for 5800 new and pulls a used price of about 4500-4900 because of our dollar.

[Thwap]

if the retail price goes up, the used price goes up.

As for prices going up, it's happening everywhere. Wheat is almost $10 a bushel now up from $3 a few years ago. WHY ?!?!?

The newer wheat is PTP.

[Scumback Speakers]

The newer wheat is PTP.

And it comes with yellow mustard caps to enhance the flavor.

[electronpirate]

My question is WHY?

Capitalism.

Or 'Because they CAN'.

Sure, dollar is in bad shape, economic woes, production costs...yada yada yada.

EP

And no, I don't like it any better than you do, but prices won't come down until more competition for that particular model increase, or people quit buying them...

EP

[DanD]

Some prognosticators are predicting a recession coming on, and a limited few are talking about a depression due to the weak dollar, over a trillion dollar trade deficeit with China and the new Tata Nano.

Good luck,
DanD

[Fuchsaudio]

I don't know about everyone else, but what have you bought lately that's dropped in price ? It seems every bill we get includes "fuel surcharges" (which on a truckload of cabinets or transformers, adds up. Amp chassis are made of aluminum (or for some makers steel), copper wire (in transformers and amp wiring) have all gone up (look at the commodities exchange), and the cost of living has as well. Not sure why voodoosound seems to this American products should be impervious to price increases, that makes no sense.

[dumeril7]

Don't forget: Oil is at a record high. That drives up the cost of everything because there are very few businesses that don't rely on petroleum fuel for some aspect of their operations or their suppliers' operations...

D7

[aarondavis]

Prices are never fixed and are only an agreement between parties of the individual transactions. They are also signals to suppliers and consumers to the relationship between supply and demand (equilibrium). Also remember, only because you see someone asking a particular price for any amp doesn't mean they actually received that price.

Also, some of the guy's here have brought up excellent points about the exchange rate. It's possible that even though you're buying an American made product, the inputs for those amps are foreign supplied much of the time. Although the cost to build a product is not the key price determinate, increases in input cost (due to exchange rate) could lead amp makers to increase prices to recoup. I'm sure many other inputs have gone up in cost too...

You can specifically see exchange rate issues in the rising asking price (and actual price) of BJF pedals from Sweden. My Dyna Red Distortion is now worth more than I paid for it (although it’s going no where).

[Guitar Josh]

It's simple - the market determines the price. Not what you paid for it.

[voodoosound]

I don't know about everyone else, but what have you bought lately that's dropped in price ? It seems every bill we get includes "fuel surcharges" (which on a truckload of cabinets or transformers, adds up. Amp chassis are made of aluminum (or for some makers steel), copper wire (in transformers and amp wiring) have all gone up (look at the commodities exchange), and the cost of living has as well. Not sure why voodoosound seems to this American products should be impervious to price increases, that makes no sense.

Andy, I think you missed my point a little. I understand price points, increases, supplier costs, fuel charges, State compliance fees,etc. My question is and I guess since you replied I can ask you directly since you fit in to the model. Have your costs really gone up a relative $1000 an amp as opposed to 18-20 months ago? If I recall one of your ODS amps could be had for right around 2200-2400. What makes them more expensive this year as opposed to two years ago? Based on increases I would expect the cost to go up maybe 10-20% not almost 30 in a 2 year period. AM I missing something?

Oh and what did I buy recently thats dropped in price. Income rental property, a 2007 Jeep, and a Masrahall 1959HW off the top of my head. The economy is slowing and fewer people have expendable income. I suspect its only a matter of time until amp prices drop just like everything else. So, again why would the prices been inflated in the firat place? Over 20 months ago? THe only answer that comes to mind is because they could. Not because their overhead was increased significantly.

Just an example here Andy, I am not pointing the finger at you or any other builder just making an observation. Along with that observation I noticed that at the current rate of amp increases in 15 years a Fuchs would be worth more than a Dumble is today.

[Fuchsaudio]

Voodoo, not sure what models or prices you're using for your frame of reference.

Just as an example: A 30-W head is list priced at $ 2,595.00, and I believe it may have gone up about $ 100.00 a year for the two years, which is less than 10% if you combine both years. We've applied similar increases across the product lineup accordingly.

Not sure where you see the "$ 1000.00 an amp" increase you cite. Yeah, ten years ago when I started, an ODS-100 was $ 2-k. Gas was one third what it cost today as well...and I built them alone, in my house. I ain't the first builder who under priced himself at the start.

Based on the current amp market, when compared to similar boutique builders and brands, I believe we're fair and competitive with what's around us, in-fact perhaps a better value than many others, based on features, performance, wattage, build quality, warranty, support, etc. [imho].

[Dave Orban]

Supply and demand has a lot to do with it.

Which is why some prices go down (i.e., when supply outpaces demand).

[voodoosound]

Voodoo, not sure what models or prices you're using for your frame of reference.

Just as an example: A 30-W head is list priced at $ 2,595.00, and I believe it may have gone up about $ 100.00 a year for the two years, which is less than 10% if you combine both years. We've applied similar increases across the product lineup accordingly.

Not sure where you see the "$ 1000.00 an amp" increase you cite. Yeah, ten years ago when I started, an ODS-100 was $ 2-k. Gas was one third what it cost today as well...and I built them alone, in my house. I ain't the first builder who under priced himself at the start.

Based on the current amp market, when compared to similar boutique builders and brands, I believe we're fair and competitive with what's around us, in-fact perhaps a better value than many others, based on features, performance, wattage, build quality, warranty, support, etc. [imho].

Andy, like I said I was not pointing you out. I just used you as an example since you posted in the thread and figured you would respond. And I apologize if my numbers were off. I thought for sure your standard ODS100 was 2400 2 years ago. Isn't it 2999-3400 now?

Also, this was just an obersvation off of my receipts and recent prices. The used prices in most cases are directly driven by dealer pricing. It just seems a little fishy when "certain" dealers take over then the map pricing gets all whacked out.

The ones that really stuck out to me are Bogner, Soldano and more recent a builder that has gained popularity within the last year. $1000 increases across the board for thses guys in 2 years.

[macmax77]

inflation?

[BBQLS1]

The price of copper going up helps.

[sfarnell]

I've had the opposite experience in the last several months. I've only been in the "GAS" business a little over a year, but I've noticed that amps that I bought and sold a year ago are substantially less expensive on the used market now. For example, an Alessandro English in a flame maple cab. I bought one on eBay about nine months ago for $1,600 and I thought that was a great deal for one of my favorite amps. I've noticed that one can now buy the same amp on the used market for about $1,400. I'm no mathematician but isn't that a 12.5% reduction in nine months? I've noticed it about Matchless, BadCat, and Fargen. I think that the newer high end models like Glaswerks, Carol Ann, Mad PRofessor, et al, are skewing what seems to me to be an average decrease in the value of amps. I could be totally wrong. Any thoughts?

[themadcaplaughs]

Simply a question of inflation, if the number of goods, amps, in an economy is held constant and the exchange medium of value, dollars, is increased it will require more dollars to purchases an amp because dollars have no inherent value printing more of them will only dilute the current value of the dollars. The relatively constant artificial lowering of the interest rate since 2000 has been away of side stepping the inevitable crash that was coming from the tech bubble burst and has snowballed into the beast we are facing now. A recession would be the best possible outcome but it is more likely the economy is going to hit a major depression. You can only maintain so long on borrowed time before the jig is up.

[glenecho]

off topic I suppose but:

In the city where I live (midwest), the local musicians for years now have had a very difficult time getting the cover charge for shows raised. It's been 3 dollars, yes...only 3 dollars...since the mid-80s. Anytime we band together to raise the rate to 5 dollars or slightly more...either the club owners balk or if they don't, many possible attendees for the show walk away without paying because they are SO used to the cover charge of 3 dollars. It's been a very big problem here for at least the last 10 years.

I don't get it. Why will people happily spend over 20 dollars a couple to go see a REALLY bad Hollywood film at a cookie-cutter movie theater, but refuse to spend a fraction of that to see good musicians playing good music (there are fine original and cover acts here)? I just don't get it...do musicians NOT deserve a raise? Should we really be forced to work for the same amount of dough that we were getting back when we were using hairspray and wearing spandex?

The local union refuses to help...it's really depressing. Most of us here are left with the decision to either not play here (my decision unless the price is right) or play for WAY too cheap (far too many other musician's decision). I have the luxury of a good day job (for now anyways until it's shipped off to India) so I can hold out, but I feel very bad for the musicians who are trying to make a living. Musicians should not be forced into getting day jobs...they should at least be able to live modestly if they have the goods and are drawing in some people. At 3 bucks a head...that's impossible here.

As far as back to the topic, I've only had the opportunity to meet 2 different boutique amp builders so far, but I can tell you they weren't living in the Hills and driving Lambroghinis. Most custom builders of amps and guitars that I know live pretty darn modestly...more modestly than I do...that's for sure. Only problem I personally have is amps that cost more than 5-6k. I make a lot of money...way more than the average American. But I don't see, and never will see, how anybody, much less a musician, can fork out 6k+ for an amp. That simply never has and probably never will be allowable with the budget I have (I have a wife that also works and 1 child).

[Plague Dog]

I put some wheat on my 412 with greenbacks and it was like someone pulled a wool blanket off it.

[Blue Strat]

off topic I suppose but:

In the city where I live (midwest), the local musicians for years now have had a very difficult time getting the cover charge for shows raised. It's been 3 dollars, yes...only 3 dollars...since the mid-80s. Anytime we band together to raise the rate to 5 dollars or slightly more...either the club owners balk or if they don't, many possible attendees for the show walk away without paying because they are SO used to the cover charge of 3 dollars. It's been a very big problem here for at least the last 10 years.

I don't get it. Why will people happily spend over 20 dollars a couple to go see a REALLY bad Hollywood film at a cookie-cutter movie theater, but refuse to spend a fraction of that to see good musicians playing good music (there are fine original and cover acts here)? I just don't get it...do musicians NOT deserve a raise? Should we really be forced to work for the same amount of dough that we were getting back when we were using hairspray and wearing spandex?

The local union refuses to help...it's really depressing. Most of us here are left with the decision to either not play here (my decision unless the price is right) or play for WAY too cheap (far too many other musician's decision). I have the luxury of a good day job (for now anyways until it's shipped off to India) so I can hold out, but I feel very bad for the musicians who are trying to make a living. Musicians should not be forced into getting day jobs...they should at least be able to live modestly if they have the goods and are drawing in some people. At 3 bucks a head...that's impossible here.

As far as back to the topic, I've only had the opportunity to meet 2 different boutique amp builders so far, but I can tell you they weren't living in the Hills and driving Lambroghinis. Most custom builders of amps and guitars that I know live pretty darn modestly...more modestly than I do...that's for sure. Only problem I personally have is amps that cost more than 5-6k. I make a lot of money...way more than the average American. But I don't see, and never will see, how anybody, much less a musician, can fork out 6k+ for an amp. That simply never has and probably never will be allowable with the budget I have (I have a wife that also works and 1 child).

Most full time musicians I know either have 25 or more guitar students or sugar mommas. I'm totally serious.

[scottlaned]

Because they already have to spend 500% of retail to buy a beer.

off topic I suppose but:

In the city where I live (midwest), the local musicians for years now have had a very difficult time getting the cover charge for shows raised. It's been 3 dollars, yes...only 3 dollars...since the mid-80s. Anytime we band together to raise the rate to 5 dollars or slightly more...either the club owners balk or if they don't, many possible attendees for the show walk away without paying because they are SO used to the cover charge of 3 dollars. It's been a very big problem here for at least the last 10 years.

I don't get it. Why will people happily spend over 20 dollars a couple to go see a REALLY bad Hollywood film at a cookie-cutter movie theater, but refuse to spend a fraction of that to see good musicians playing good music (there are fine original and cover acts here)? I just don't get it...do musicians NOT deserve a raise? Should we really be forced to work for the same amount of dough that we were getting back when we were using hairspray and wearing spandex?

The local union refuses to help...it's really depressing. Most of us here are left with the decision to either not play here (my decision unless the price is right) or play for WAY too cheap (far too many other musician's decision). I have the luxury of a good day job (for now anyways until it's shipped off to India) so I can hold out, but I feel very bad for the musicians who are trying to make a living. Musicians should not be forced into getting day jobs...they should at least be able to live modestly if they have the goods and are drawing in some people. At 3 bucks a head...that's impossible here.

As far as back to the topic, I've only had the opportunity to meet 2 different boutique amp builders so far, but I can tell you they weren't living in the Hills and driving Lambroghinis. Most custom builders of amps and guitars that I know live pretty darn modestly...more modestly than I do...that's for sure. Only problem I personally have is amps that cost more than 5-6k. I make a lot of money...way more than the average American. But I don't see, and never will see, how anybody, much less a musician, can fork out 6k+ for an amp. That simply never has and probably never will be allowable with the budget I have (I have a wife that also works and 1 child).

[pfflam]

A coule other things too:

Amps and guitar playing for middle aged men is simply getting very trendy right now . . . its all over the media, the advertisers have even targeted the demographic, we're that un-original!

Also, with the looming crash/slump/lack-of-responsible-fiscal-and-international-governance-and-its-results we are seeing people trying to get whatever they can from whatever piece of gear they think is 'vintage' before they won't be able to and before they need the money honey

[mooreamps]

From what I am seeing the cost of parts going up is probably the driving factor for new builds.

-g

[BBQLS1]

Also, the value of the dollar hasn't been as good.

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

Most full time musicians I know either have 25 or more guitar students or sugar mommas. I'm totally serious.

Q: what do U call a guitar player w/o a girlfriend?

A: homeless.

[JDJ]

Gentlemen, inflation is here. The gubbermint just don't call it that. Fuel is up. Groceries is up. Amps is up. And there's lots of nice gear for sale which won't move like it used to.

[Enoch]

Some prognosticators are predicting a recession coming on, and a limited few are talking about a depression due to the weak dollar, over a trillion dollar trade deficeit with China and the new Tata Nano.

Good luck,
DanD


Simply a question of inflation, if the number of goods, amps, in an economy is held constant and the exchange medium of value, dollars, is increased it will require more dollars to purchases an amp because dollars have no inherent value printing more of them will only dilute the current value of the dollars. The relatively constant artificial lowering of the interest rate since 2000 has been away of side stepping the inevitable crash that was coming from the tech bubble burst and has snowballed into the beast we are facing now. A recession would be the best possible outcome but it is more likely the economy is going to hit a major depression. You can only maintain so long on borrowed time before the jig is up.


Yes, The System you are dependant upon to provide your existence is called the "Floating exchange rate debt backed by debt fractional reserve banking system"

I have studied it for 15 years and it is in the terminal phase of collapse which will produce a hyper deflationary implosion of debt...

The main event will be as worse or worse than the depression in the US in the 1780´s on a global basis...The US economic system which has been hopelessly dependant on debt inflation to be created in great enough quantities to overpower debt deflationary forces for 45 years is fast approaching the system´s theoretical maximum potential to produce debt inflation...

Money is debt

Currently in the US debt is being created faster than the world can realistically absorb it causing a debt glut which is the reason why US debt dollars are losing their value in relation to everything else...

Once the US reaches its maximum potential to use previously created debt to leverage new debt into creation in greater quantities the 46 year debt inflationary ponzi scheme collapses into a hyper deflationary implosion of debt...

"This process of "debt deflation" (a term coined by the early twentieth-century American economist Irving Fisher) was important in the U.S. deflation and depression of the 1930s"-Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke Before the Economics Roundtable, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, California
July 23, 2003

Note: The Great Depression in the US in the 30´s was the result of the hyper deflationary implosion of 16 years of debt inflation...
This time it is 46+

Other than some sort of external (Asteroid impact) or natural (Super volcanic eruption) A hyper deflationary implosion of a debt backed my debt system is the greatest manmade destructive event behind Global nuclear war...

It is the purest of pure economic terror which is currently beyond 99.99999% of the general population to even begin to comprehend...

[imjustadrummer]

heavy...
:munch

we GASsing consumers also get used to spending relatively more for our equipment. I started with $2-300 amps and then gradually became willing to spend 2-3x that... for a freakin' geetar ampleefier that I will likely never make money using!?! We consume for entertainment and this country spends truckloads on entertainment... it's probably our biggest addiction?!?

should this post be in the pub? I need another drink...

[cochese]

No offense to anyone but as a fulltime musician that does not have a sugar momma nor do I have any guitar students the reason for the prices going up is GAS.
I've been using the same amp for the last 7 1/2 years. The last time I bought a new guitar was over two years ago. I pretty much use all the gear I have. I just spent over $200 having the frets on two of my guitars ground and polished. I need to keep what I do have working.
When you play for a living you don't have time to investigate every piece of new gear that comes out. For me it's about the tools I need for the given job. Don't get me wrong I love my gear but once you've found "your" sound the need to constantly find the next best thing becomes a waste of time.
When I worked at a music store many years ago I used to tell people that a music store is basically a toy store. Most people I would sell to just wanted the next new toy rather than a working tool. Nothing wrong in that but fulltime players don't trade in their PRS for one with a prettier top they just use the one they have if it sounds good. The don't sell their Dr Z amp to fund the purchase of the new Bruno amp etc.
What's frustrating is that I've seen the pay scale and opportunities for musicians go constantly down while the prices of gear and everything else go up. The guy that I bought my used Anderson from years ago was just a typical babyboomer business guy with cash to burn that would buy a couple of high end guitars each year and either trade or sell the old ones. It's an endless cycle.

[OrangeAD30TC]

Well then it would make sense if we were buying amps from outside the US. But when US buyers are buying US built amps supposedly made of US parts what does the value of the dollar have to do with it? It makes since to me that a Mad Profesor sells for 5800 new and pulls a used price of about 4500-4900 because of our dollar.

Um no. See even though the amp is made here all of the parts probably come from overseas. So only labor cost is uneffective. Also because of inflation the builder will demand more or else he is making oney (puchasing power) even if it is the samwe amount of dollars.

[xray]

I wouldn't attempt to draw any real economic lessons from TGP. Much of it is trend/fad based.

[John Phillips]

I don't understand why some folks think that their 89 SLO (example) should pull the same amount of dough as a 2006. Not saying one is better than the other in most cases I would rather have the 89 but just because Soldano is asking close to 4000 for a new slo it is not really honest to put in your ad "These sell for almost 4000". That is incorrect. The fact is in 89 that particular amp sold for $1600 new.I don't have an inflation calculator for the US to hand, but I bet if you run $1600 at 1989 prices - that's 19 years ago, now - you get not far off $4000 in today's money. (Just under 5% average annual inflation - or more accurately, wage inflation since the largest cost in building an SLO is labor, either directly or indirectly by subcontractors - would do it, FWIW.)

A Fender Twin cost something like $3,000 in today's terms in the mid 60s... amps built in the same way today are no more expensive, it's just that the market has been skewed by the incredible cheapness of modern mass-production PCB amps.