Cable, what one of the best techs of the nation told me

[macmax77]

I have some new cables on my board, the BL cables and i love em.

I have a very expensive cable from my guitar to my board and a Fulltone from my board to my guitar.

I will keep the Name of the Expensive cable to myself because of what i am about to say now.

I started getting some harshness from my guitar, i felt i could here it more with the Neck pickup.

So i called one of the most respected Builders-Techs of the nation and explained to him everything i was going thru and told him about all of my equipment.

He asked me if i had changed my cables recently and i explained and when i told him about this exquisite cable that i bought his reaction was GET RID OF THAT CABLE and go get a cheapo at your local music store.


Then he explained to me SRV sounds and what Jimmi Hendrix did with his cables and he explained lot's of technical stuff as why i had to change the Expensive cable.

He was right, did it and i feel like a mule for falling with the expensive cable thing.

I don't know if this is the way to go or not, but i am guessing that those dudes we try to emulate didn't spend the whole day looking for a specific thing, they just played and sounded like heaven.

I have this friend that plays cheap pedals, thru a Fender HR and everyone stops to listen to him because no one believes how good he sounds.


Back to playing now, guess the Whirlwind won this round.

[sector9]

I think it's a load of crap but this is gonna be a good thread!

:munch

[wolfpack]

:AOK This thread RULZ

[Guitar Josh]

You'd think the "best tech in the nation" would know a little bit more about the principles of proper cabling.

[dbeeman]

If you want your cable to act as a filter ... ok.

In most cases I would rather have the highs go through and turn down the
treble at the amp or guitar, I t is easier to have it and cut it than not have it and try to boost it back up

[imguitardan]

I want specifics!

[leodiditright]

If you want to look like Jimi with your telephone cable jack, then it's ok...otherwise:munch

[rewog]

I'm sure there's some truth to it if you're looking for a particular type of tone repsonse... but remember ALL the variables - from string type to speakers.
There's no doubt a cable can be too bright, but there's the other extreme as well.

I've been amazed at how much difference cable type can make.
The bottom line is to trust your ears.

[macmax77]

You'd think the "best tech in the nation" would know a little bit more about the principles of proper cabling.

like this?

milliamps at millivolts.
actual emf required to rearrange crystalline structures are beyond that produced by guitar pickups.

some research into the crystalline lattice energy of copper shows......
now compare to the electrical force output of a pickup.

Maybe it is Marketing hype,

I just know what he told me worked....

Now, i am not talking about buying crap, i consider the Fulltone and the
BL's to be very good cables, i just had a big problem with the Expensive cable that i won't mention.

As i said, i just know it worked like he said.....

I would like to see you guys doing some Blind test cable comparison with a brand new cable and a cable that has 40 hours plus and the molecules "have been rearrange,blah blah blah...." and i will bet all of my equipment that you cannot listen to the difference.

[macmax77]

I'm sure there's some truth to it if you're looking for a particular type of tone repsonse... but remember ALL the variables - from string type to speakers.
There's no doubt a cable can be too bright, but I there's the other extreme as well.

I've been amazed at how much difference cable type can make.
The bottom line is to trust your ears.

:AOK

I am with you here

[monstermike]

Well, think about it for a second - Jimi was using a non-true bypass wah and curly cords. Both things are known for rolling off treble and reducing output. It wasn't a pure, high fidelity sound, but it was a good one. Why not use that stuff as filters and EQ if that's the sound you're after?

[rewog]

I must agree Macmax, that I draw the line at "directional cable" and "cable break-in".

[aaland_brian]

He was right, did it and i feel like a mule for falling with the expensive cable thing.



Well if you want a dull rounded sound, make sure that you don't just buy a cheap cable, make sure it is at least 50' long. Then if you want you can also coil it up around the handle on your amp and it will double as a radio antenna.

I'm sure their are tons of people out there who are with you, that like their tone a little less bright than what their cable gives them, but if you look at your guitar there are tone knobs to turn down. Good luck with loss of dynamics and tone. :jo

[Guitar Josh]

like this?

milliamps at millivolts.
actual emf required to rearrange crystalline structures are beyond that produced by guitar pickups.

some research into the crystalline lattice energy of copper shows......
now compare to the electrical force output of a pickup.

Maybe it is Marketing hype,

I just know what he told me worked....

Now, i am not talking about buying crap, i consider the Fulltone and the
BL's to be very good cables, i just had a big problem with the Expensive cable that i won't mention.

As i said, i just know it worked like he said.....

I would like to see you guys doing some Blind test cable comparison with a brand new cable and a cable that has 40 hours plus and the molecules "have been rearrange,blah blah blah...." and i will bet all of my equipment that you cannot listen to the difference.

Tell you what friend. I'd rather you keep your equipment, but get some Lava cables or even some Live Wires and put them up against your skinny $2 cables and we'll see who wins.

[hurleysurf]

Tell you what friend. I'd rather you keep your equipment, but get some Lava cables or even some Live Wires and put them up against your skinny $2 cables and we'll see who wins.

winner

[DC1]

Then he explained to me SRV sounds and what Jimmi Hendrix did with his cables and he explained lot's of technical stuff as why i had to change the Expensive cable.

He was right, did it and i feel like a mule for falling with the expensive cable thing.

I don't know if this is the way to go or not, but i am guessing that those dudes we try to emulate didn't spend the whole day looking for a specific thing, they just played and sounded like heaven.

I have this friend that plays cheap pedals, thru a Fender HR and everyone stops to listen to him because no one believes how good he sounds.


Back to playing now, guess the Whirlwind won this round.


Jimi and Stevie were both extremely particular about their gear and tone. They just used different stuff than you would expect sometimes. BTW, a cable cannot really make something harsh, but it can make it brighter. Now, a cheap cable can limit your highs and make it sound like it is less harsh, (and better) but bright does not = harsh.

There is no voodoo involved in the physics of a cable from a passive/high impedance guitar (strats LP's teles etc) to an amp or pedal; it's a filter. They sound different because they filter more, less, or differently. It's an extremely primitive circuit that sounds so good we still use it, but the construction and materials in the cable make a real difference because of our pickups' impedance.

If the cheap cable works for you, then celebrate and go back to playing.

For me, I could not care less what Jimi or Stevie played, and NO it is not good enough for me because it was good enough for them. I hear my own sounds, and write my own songs. Hell, BB uses a solid state amp. Tone is where you find it.

What was the high end cable you did not like?

DC

[DC1]

Something funny is going on in his gear and the dull cable is covering it up?

just a thought.

He could also simply like that tone better. Nothing wrong with that.

DC

[Scrutinizer]

Tell you what friend. I'd rather you keep your equipment, but get some Lava cables or even some Live Wires and put them up against your skinny $2 cables and we'll see who wins.
What criteria will you use to determine the "winner"?

Consider the possibility that a high-capacitance cable might sound better (to some listeners) in some applications. :YinYang

[Dr Git]

Listen to Zappa and "Shut Up And Play Yer Guitar" :RoCkIn

[devbro]

Wanna sell me that terrible cable? PM me if you're looking to sell.

[Sniper-V]

If you want your cable to act as a filter ... ok.

In most cases I would rather have the highs go through and turn down the
treble at the amp or guitar, I t is easier to have it and cut it than not have it and try to boost it back up

+1

High quality cables in general usually offer more clarity which can be perceived as harshness. I think what you may be hearing is your signal's high end frequencies are being retained.

Cheaper or regular cables don't retain a signal's frequencies as well so the tone may sound darker or browner and in a way sound good through a particular rig. Or the rig can sound "normal" if you are not use to the added clarity or frequencies retained.

I love the clarity of high quality cables and would eq the rig to sound optimal. You may just not like the tone of that particular cable. For example, I don't care for Monster or Planet Waves cable tone wise and I prefer Mogami. I wouldn't call those "high-end" cables but I do consider them as quality cables and not cheapies.

I think you should try another cable brand to see if you get better results. Or you may just be satisfied with your rig's tone and no improvment is needed.
But,
I don't think that you should feel you can't reveal the brand name of high quality cable that you had an unfavorable experience with...this is after all the Gear Page.

[pipedwho]

Quality vs cheap, doesn't always mean low capacitance vs high capacitance. In my book, it means consistent vs unpredictable. I've been through many cables, mainly because they don't last forever (ie. get 'borrowed', cut open, man handled, etc).

My faves at the moment are Lava ELCs for the extra clarity. That way I can use a 15' cable and it sounds like a 5' Mogami, which is also a great cable.

The problem with a lot of really cheap and nasty cables is poor construction, usually higher than desired (for me) capacitance, and poor shielding, so they are more prone to picking up hum.

I'm not advocating stupidly expensive cables here, but surely people here can afford to pay at least $20 for a well made lead.

(BTW All the pseudo-physics bollocks that the marketers use is way over the top, usually untrue for the way the cable will be used, and ALWAYS the last thing you should even consider for your cable in the few cases where it is true.)

[OOG]

some people
do not like equipment
cables, amps, guitars
that let them hear
what
they are actually
playing

[mibu]

don't forget also that a new cable sounds not at its full potential. only after about 40 hours of playing through it it will settle and sound the best! I have fully verifyed this and it's not "legend" or something like this...

[mentoneman]

i actually think the evidence cable sounds the best but i'm not really willing to spend the dough for it.

i did a pretty good shootout and in the end, i use george Ls, planet waves, and monster because they are easy to get and sound good.

[rewog]

don't forget also that a new cable sounds not at its full potential. only after about 40 hours of playing through it it will settle and sound the best! I have fully verifyed this and it's not "legend" or something like this...

I'd love to see your verification Mibu.
Any chance you can make it available to TGP members ?

You will see above that the "tech" that Macmax77 talked to refuted this.
He said "actual emf required to rearrange crystalline structures are beyond that produced by guitar pickups".
I think I'm with the "tech" unless I see (scientific) evidence to the contrary.

[kimock]

I'd love to see your verification Mibu.
Any chance you can make it available to TGP members ?

You will see above that the "tech" that Macmax77 talked to refuted this.
He said "actual emf required to rearrange crystalline structures are beyond that produced by guitar pickups".
I think I'm with the "tech" unless I see (scientific) evidence to the contrary.

That's a tricky one. It's been my experience that everything breaks in and wears out.
Some of it's obvious, speakers and strings for example.
Some of it I'm not sure if it's the gear breaking in or the player adjusting to the new sound.
The effect is there in either case, it takes some time to learn what any new piece really does.

As far as the "actual emf required to rearrange crystalline structures are beyond that produced by guitar pickups". quote goes, that doesn't prove that there is no percievable break-in period. On the contrary, if true, it just eliminates that scenario as a factor.

In the absence of any second hand evidence, scientific or otherwise, your best bet is just to try it yourself and see what you think.
Perception, preference, and your own personal musical evolution are probably beyond the scope of modern science to track. It's likely that the same cable break-in experiment, self conducted, would yield different results in a few years than it would today. Those results would both be equally valid.
It is what it sounds like, and the validity of a listening experience is a function of the quality of the listening.
That's an emergent property of a perceptual object, tough stuff to measure . . .

peace sk

[rewog]

I would have thought a change in the frequencies transferred through a cable would be very easy to test.
Very easy to lose objectivity with a listening test.

[kimock]

I would have thought a change in the frequencies transferred through a cable would be very easy to test.
Very easy to lose objectivity with a listening test.

100% agreed on the objectivity part, but only if the end game is individual component measurement.
If you follow any of this out to its conclusion as far as creative musical application goes, if the result of the break-in period is that the player has a new jumping off point that results in a more rewarding experience for the player, something has changed.

Assuming you don't have a way to "measure the player" beyond the players' own subective experience, and you don't have a meaningfull measure of the cable that explains the difference, you're left with the conclusion that the cable acted as a catalyst on the players' development in a way that you can't measure.

Anyway, I'm not opposed to using individual component specs. to evaluate stuff, it's just hard to know what's really going on when you stick different human operators into the middle of a whole bunch of gear and you get alternately great satisfaction and total frustration with that same gear.

Y'know what I mean? The cold dead hand of logic that writes the specs can't predict the outcome of any creative application.
The crap sounds great, the hi-end stuff sounds like crap, the hi-end stuff sounds amazing, the crap is unusable, blah blah blah. . .
It's truly a popcorn moment!
:munch

I just watch and wonder wtf any of it really means. . .:rolleyes:

peace sk

[John Phillips]

Using a brighter cable and turning down the treble at the amp does not sound the same as using a less bright cable.

The cable is part of the guitar from an electrical point of view and doesn't just roll off treble (all cables do BTW, just to differing degrees) - it also actually modifies the frequency response of the pickups, and lowers the resonant peak - ie it changes the fundamental tone of the guitar, like changing pickups. No amount of EQ at the amp will do the same thing.

The effect is purely to do with the capacitance of the cable. Capacitance is determined by the way the cable is made, the materials used in the insulation ('dielectric') and its length - a cable twice as long will have double the capacitance. High-quality cables are usually - but not always - lower capacitance than cheaper ones, and it's quite possible that the high-quality cable raises the resonant peak of the pickup high enough to make it shrill and harsh. The cable you use is a simple way of tuning the tone of your rig.

There is no right or wrong - you aren't "missing out" on something if you use a high-capacitance cable, you are just choosing a different tone. Personally I don't like the tone of most of the high-end cables I've tried, and I also specifically use a 20' cable even with my own choice because I don't like the slight spikiness of the tone of a 10' one. (Also remember that a 10' curly cable is actually 30 or 40 feet long if you measure the length of the wire.)

Don't look down on cheap cables until you've actually heard the difference and know what it sounds like. Tone is not dependent on cost or even directly related - in fact, some of the brightest cable you will ever find is TV aerial cable, and yes it does work as a guitar cord. Albert Collins used it for his super-long cable so he could walk out into the crowd in the days before wireless, and no-one would say he had a dull tone :).

This all matters because a guitar is a simple passive system with the cable directly loading the pickups, so it's very important to tone. Signal cable after a buffer of any kind and speaker cables have very much less or approaching zero effect on tone because they do not interact with the rest of the system in the same way, so don't assume that because you can hear a big difference with your guitar cord you then must be able to with other cables - it's not the same situation.

[Oddos]

Yeah. I had an Evidence I tried from guitar to board which sounded awful to me. When I switched to my favourite G L`s and put the Evidence after the pedals it didn`t have all that much effect. Still prefer the G L`s there too, but I could live with both.

[mibu]

rewog, I'm the distributor for Evidence Cables in romania, so I deal daily with those. I first bought a 3m lyricHG cable out of curiosity, because all the hype on the forums. after testing it, I didn't look back... and I got their distributor here, in my country. after some months from the day I got my first cable, I got the other cables, for sale. of course I checked them also, and I discovered exactly what Tony Farinella keeps tellin' - the cables sound at their full potential after some 40 hours of playing. yes, the new cables sound a bit different than worn ones and this bit is pretty hearable, not that subtle. this was also reported to me by every one of my customers that bought those cables!
back to the highs some complain thei hear with very good cables (in my case those are the EA ones) - the problem is twofold: on one side, there's the slight sound "stiffness" of the new cable, but on the other side the user should learn to distinguish between harmonically "correct" highs and those shrill ones you get from some cables. and, on the third hand, a very good cable is as much neutral as possible regarding to the original signal. using such one you can hear what you loose by using bad cables...

yes, I plan to release some video and audio tests this year, which I will make available (the attendees of my workshops are already hearing all this around the country...). stay tuned.

[Dave Orban]

Generally speaking, I'd rather have cables that pass MORE of the frequencies than less.

I can always adjust for individual guitars at the amp and/or the guitar. Toning down treble is MUCH easier than putting it in, especially if you don't have it to begin with.

[lv]

Sometimes you have to just try this stuff out for yourself and just play what sounds best to you, regardless of what you might read.

[Dave Orban]

Sometimes you have to just try this stuff out for yourself and just play what sounds best to you, regardless of what you might read.Yup!

[Pietro]

And if you spend too much time thinking about this, you need less gear and more practice time.

[zekmoe]

No way. Sorry, but not everyone runs the same, jumps the same, can see the same and certainly can hear the same. We are all created with equal rights. Not equal abilities. There is a huge difference in cables, not always quantified as better/worse but certainly tonally different. But I've heard massive differences and had others say the they sounded the same. But people also think Skippy and Jif tastes the same. The think Coors is beer instead of piss. They are wrong. But it's also ok.

[Brien]

Most guitars and amps we play were voiced and tweaked to sound great with regular off the shelf cables, not $200 guitar cables. While I don't doubt there is a difference in sound, it may not be an improvement based on the equipment we are using. I'm sure it's an improvement for some. High end roll off is something I do on a regular basis-Flatwound strings, tone knob, OD tone knob, Amp treble knob. They all roll off highs a little differently.

[jbgordon]

In my limited experience, I have found that I like my new Lava ELC's better than my old $20 jobs. It may be because they make me feel important, because in all reality, we here are in one way or another gear elitists. On a tonal standpoint though, I really enjoy the clarity that the ELC's give me in all frequency ranges. I can see some times when I would want to use my old cables again, because they are a lot darker and warm sounding, such as for clean jazz tones or something of the like.

[Denyle_Guitars]

You old dudes with your high frequency hearing loss sure do love your bright & expensive cables. :D

I'm kidding of course, but it might be interesting to see if the 25 and under crowd are as selective with their cables.

[Aussie Mike]

some people
do not like equipment
cables, amps, guitars
that let them hear
what
they are actually
playing

I think your "Enter" key
is broken.

[enocaster]

I think your "Enter" key
is broken.
I thought it was poetry. You should see splatt's posts!

[Aussie Mike]

I thought it was poetry. You should see splatt's posts!

Ha, yes, but his seem to have some kind of (twisted) reason for it. That one was just annoying to read. I don't geddit.

[mibu]

guys, I think the most important thing about good cables is the amount of harmonics of the signal transmitted and the overall feeling of them!

[DerekEstrada]

Tone is subjective...tone is subjective...tone is subjective...

[macmax77]

Well if you want a dull rounded sound, make sure that you don't just buy a cheap cable, make sure it is at least 50' long. Then if you want you can also coil it up around the handle on your amp and it will double as a radio antenna.

I'm sure their are tons of people out there who are with you, that like their tone a little less bright than what their cable gives them, but if you look at your guitar there are tone knobs to turn down. Good luck with loss of dynamics and tone. :jo

i am not talking about dull or bassy or trebly, i said harshness.

And i will tell you something, the sound was distorted with the expensive one.
I could go out there and buy me whatever cable i want, i was not complaining because it was a question of money, i do keep some expensive ones, it was that VERY expensive cable that started the whole thing and when i took it of the chain, everything went back to normal.

I am going back to playing with a band again this year, and i can't have a distorted sound cause it is mainly clean sounds that we use,hell i wouldn't even use the SD80 with them.

This let's find the perfect tone to the last bit takes us nowhere and only makes us loose a lot of time instead of playing.

I even posted a very complex clip and no one cared for the music because i didn't use any amps, because i prefaced by saying that the tone wasn't good, but strange , ohhhhh so strange that grammy winner G Rubalcaba wanted the tapes and Mark Egan wanted the tapes too , but here no one cared because it wasn't recorded on a two rock.

Buy whatever cable fits you, but please play for at least 40 hours until you "break the cable in" and you can "hear the difference"

One thing i am telling you now thou, i don't have the means to record at this moment, but i remember playing with a TREMOVERB< yes a TREMOVERB and getting more compliments from fellow musicians and people attending a show than my friend using his Matchless.

This is about tweaking and hearing yourself and playing.
While a Peavey Bandit won't get me nowhere when it comes to good equipment there is only a minimal line between them and you can close it out.
I am thinking about buying a two rock because i like it, i won't even post it here when i do as i don't post half of my things, i don't have the need, it just amazed me that a Fulltone cable stopped the harshness and the distorted sound i was getting form the other one.

Not every cable works in every chain like a charm, sometimes less seems to be more.

I am not buying into the hype, and i won't buy a cheapo that doesn't work either, but i will not buy me another Super expensive cable without trying it with the rig i am using at the time.

[macmax77]

That's a tricky one. It's been my experience that everything breaks in and wears out.
Some of it's obvious, speakers and strings for example.
Some of it I'm not sure if it's the gear breaking in or the player adjusting to the new sound.
The effect is there in either case, it takes some time to learn what any new piece really does.

As far as the "actual emf required to rearrange crystalline structures are beyond that produced by guitar pickups". quote goes, that doesn't prove that there is no percievable break-in period. On the contrary, if true, it just eliminates that scenario as a factor.

In the absence of any second hand evidence, scientific or otherwise, your best bet is just to try it yourself and see what you think.
Perception, preference, and your own personal musical evolution are probably beyond the scope of modern science to track. It's likely that the same cable break-in experiment, self conducted, would yield different results in a few years than it would today. Those results would both be equally valid.
It is what it sounds like, and the validity of a listening experience is a function of the quality of the listening.
That's an emergent property of a perceptual object, tough stuff to measure . . .

peace sk

ok, this is very easy to fix.

Get 3 guys in a blind test with the same equipment and play thru the cable that hasn't been "broken in" and then with the other one.

Same equipment , same player same 3 guinea pigs and i will bet you my life they won't be able to tell which cable is which.

[macmax77]

Using a brighter cable and turning down the treble at the amp does not sound the same as using a less bright cable.

The cable is part of the guitar from an electrical point of view and doesn't just roll off treble (all cables do BTW, just to differing degrees) - it also actually modifies the frequency response of the pickups, and lowers the resonant peak - ie it changes the fundamental tone of the guitar, like changing pickups. No amount of EQ at the amp will do the same thing.

The effect is purely to do with the capacitance of the cable. Capacitance is determined by the way the cable is made, the materials used in the insulation ('dielectric') and its length - a cable twice as long will have double the capacitance. High-quality cables are usually - but not always - lower capacitance than cheaper ones, and it's quite possible that the high-quality cable raises the resonant peak of the pickup high enough to make it shrill and harsh. The cable you use is a simple way of tuning the tone of your rig.

There is no right or wrong - you aren't "missing out" on something if you use a high-capacitance cable, you are just choosing a different tone. Personally I don't like the tone of most of the high-end cables I've tried, and I also specifically use a 20' cable even with my own choice because I don't like the slight spikiness of the tone of a 10' one. (Also remember that a 10' curly cable is actually 30 or 40 feet long if you measure the length of the wire.)

Don't look down on cheap cables until you've actually heard the difference and know what it sounds like. Tone is not dependent on cost or even directly related - in fact, some of the brightest cable you will ever find is TV aerial cable, and yes it does work as a guitar cord. Albert Collins used it for his super-long cable so he could walk out into the crowd in the days before wireless, and no-one would say he had a dull tone :).

This all matters because a guitar is a simple passive system with the cable directly loading the pickups, so it's very important to tone. Signal cable after a buffer of any kind and speaker cables have very much less or approaching zero effect on tone because they do not interact with the rest of the system in the same way, so don't assume that because you can hear a big difference with your guitar cord you then must be able to with other cables - it's not the same situation.

well, this is a great post!
:AOK

[Dave Orban]

It really depends on the guinea pigs. Just as some folks have a heightened sense of color, so do some folks have a heightened sense of sound.

Not everyone hears the same things, and not everyone sees the same things.

And, having the vocabulary to articulate what you're seeing or hearing is another variable in the mix.

Bottom line? "If YOU are happy with the sound you're getting, who cares about anyone else's opinion?"

[Pietro]

It really depends on the guinea pigs. Just as some folks have a heightened sense of color, so do some folks have a heightened sense of sound.

Unfortunately, there is also the case where somebody has spent 200 bucks on one cable and in order to justify it "hears" what they want to hear. I've encountered this a lot.

I've only used cables up to about 50 bucks, and I have a VERY good set of ears imho, and I hear little to no difference... except with VERY cheap cables, which I can VERY much hear the problems with.

More expensive cables that are also built to last and not to fail in the middle of a gig are worth every penny, however, no matter what you pay.

[the_Chris]

ok, this is very easy to fix.

Get 3 guys in a blind test with the same equipment and play thru the cable that hasn't been "broken in" and then with the other one.

Same equipment , same player same 3 guinea pigs and i will bet you my life they won't be able to tell which cable is which.


I'm going to have to agree with you on this. I can understand speaker break-in periods, but cables just aren't "clicking" with me. What could possibly cause a cable to change its tone after being used for 40 hours? You've got two 1/4'' male plugs with your hot and ground and you've got conductors covered with various jackets, shields, different solders are used and depending on the configuration, there are different tones. The purpose of a cable is to move electrons along your rig - there's nothing moving internally that could benefit from extended periods of use.

I've never noticed any change with my cables and frankly, if there are variables that are "changing" in cables, I'm not really sure I want to purchase any of them - cables are supposed to be consistent.

[gerryguitar]

when talking about "tone" or guitar sounds in general there are just so many variables that you will never get a definative answer....
a lot of the great "classic" guitar sounds were created with sub standard equipment... it's a fact... some of the recording techniques used in the late 60's and 70's would never be used nowadays... and as a result I believe we have lost something.... we are all concerned with getting what we percieve to be the best gear in order to create a great guitar sound... and still many of us are unsatisfied...
I think a lot of us.. myself included.. have been drawn in to this mindset that is telling us we MUST have a certain standard of equipment in order to become a great player... hence in this case better cables to achieve percieved better tone... I spoke at length to Scott Gorham of Thin Lizzy about this very subject a few years ago, I asked him about the classic Lizzy stuff and about how he achieved some of those great tones... my favourite Lizzy album is Bad Reputation on which he played all the guitars and his response was that there was no secret... he used off the shelf Marshalls.. straight outta the box... and whatever cables they had laying around..... basically whatever worked... I have found much to my amusement that the best distortion pedal with my amp and for what I want to hear is a cheap Digitech... it is probably the cheapest pedal I've ever had... yet it works, the cork sniffers wouldn't even look at it but thats their loss.... I don't use expensive cables... just ones that are reliable...

[macmax77]

one more thing, i don't like insults as i am not insulting anyone with this , i truly hope i am not.
it was just my experience with a certain cable.

To those talking about practicing or ....i uploaded a n awful sounding clip with one of our little songs,
Maybe i should send you the notation and wait for you to play it along.hehehhehehe.
It is only a guitar, thru a pa system, it was a rehearsal and it was recorded with a little radio,saxo, drums, and bass.

I don't know , should i post a jazzy clip in a rock forum?
Just let me know and again to those two fellow musicians, i can send you the notation so you can play along.

[drbob1]

ACtually, if you have a rig that's supposed to be running clean, and you load up on high frequencies from a cable that lets a lot more of those thru, I can see it introducing distortion that might not be musically pleasing. As the harmonics in the sequence get higher, they tend to become harsher (closer intervals to octaves of the fundamental tone). So if you've got a resonant, complex guitar, and amp that can reproduce very high frequencies (say solid state into a JBL speaker or EVL) a very transparent cable might be a very bad idea. We're up for tuning our sound with complex EQ networks (see HRM tonestacks in the Dumble threads), treble or midrange boosters, EQ pedals-why not tune with the cable if that works the best? I have to agree with John that changing EQ at the amp doesn't sound the same as changing EQ on the pedalboard, doesn't sound the same as changing EQ in the cable, doesn't sound the same as rolling off the treble on the guitar...

[macmax77]

ACtually, if you have a rig that's supposed to be running clean, and you load up on high frequencies from a cable that lets a lot more of those thru, I can see it introducing distortion that might not be musically pleasing. As the harmonics in the sequence get higher, they tend to become harsher (closer intervals to octaves of the fundamental tone). So if you've got a resonant, complex guitar, and amp that can reproduce very high frequencies (say solid state into a JBL speaker or EVL) a very transparent cable might be a very bad idea. We're up for tuning our sound with complex EQ networks (see HRM tonestacks in the Dumble threads), treble or midrange boosters, EQ pedals-why not tune with the cable if that works the best? I have to agree with John that changing EQ at the amp doesn't sound the same as changing EQ on the pedalboard, doesn't sound the same as changing EQ in the cable, doesn't sound the same as rolling off the treble on the guitar...

i also agree with John Completely.

[Guitar Josh]

It's pretty clear to me that the cables the OP is talking about are Monster cables. And if we are talking about Monster cables vs. the cheapies, then I might even be able to agree with the OP.

But when you are talking about canare or lava vs. even Monster, it's no contest. Mark at lava or Bayou cables will make you CHEAP high quality cables that will knock the socks off of Monster or the cheapies. Heck, I'd even take a Live Wire over Monster, in fact, I use Live Wires and they are VERY good, much better than the "rainbow connection" of pedal interconnects I was using before.

[MightyGuru]

If you want your cable to act as a filter ... ok.

In most cases I would rather have the highs go through and turn down the
treble at the amp or guitar, I t is easier to have it and cut it than not have it and try to boost it back up

+1+

[MightyGuru]

It's pretty clear to me that the cables the OP is talking about are Monster cables. And if we are talking about Monster cables vs. the cheapies, then I might even be able to agree with the OP.

But when you are talking about canare or lava vs. even Monster, it's no contest. Mark at lava or Bayou cables will make you CHEAP high quality cables that will knock the socks off of Monster or the cheapies. Heck, I'd even take a Live Wire over Monster, in fact, I use Live Wires and they are VERY good, much better than the "rainbow connection" of pedal interconnects I was using before.

Word. I love my Bayou Cables. Inexpensive and FANTASTIC sounding.

[guitardr]

Mark at Lava Cable has all sorts of fancy cables & plug combinations. But there's also a turorial/shootout (it might've appeared originally in Vintage Guitar). Read the comparison/article and then try various brands out. But for the record...
1. Lamp cord and speaker cables are 'kissin' cousins', but quality of copper, strands, insulation, et al make a difference. I heard another player switch his speaker cab cable to Evidence Siren and it DID sound a bit better to me.
2. If quality of instrument cable (which would include recording studio patch cables, mike cables, et al) didn't matter, why do you find studios & sound companies using the fancy stuff, 'military spec' plugs, etc.?

Capacitance, oxygen-free structure ansd other qualities ARE a factor in decent cable construction. Actual quality of the copper itrself is deteriorating as copper gets less plentiful/rarer/costly. Ever hear the difference between a crappy mixing board and one of those Midas babies with all the gold contacts/quality wiring? It's just not the faders either.

Tara Labs, Van den Hul, Evidence, Mogami, Analysis-Plus, Core, George L's, Lava (house brand), Vovox, Monster (the great debate continues) and others are there to listen to. But if Whirlwind, Conquest and cost-effective brands are good for you as well: why go crazy?

[macmax77]

It's pretty clear to me that the cables the OP is talking about are Monster cables. And if we are talking about Monster cables vs. the cheapies, then I might even be able to agree with the OP.

But when you are talking about canare or lava vs. even Monster, it's no contest. Mark at lava or Bayou cables will make you CHEAP high quality cables that will knock the socks off of Monster or the cheapies. Heck, I'd even take a Live Wire over Monster, in fact, I use Live Wires and they are VERY good, much better than the "rainbow connection" of pedal interconnects I was using before.

i am not talking about Monster Cables, i hate that company and will never use one of their cables.

I won't say what cable it is because to tell you the truth i felt guilty after i bought it because it costs more than some people amps and i come from an island(i am an USA citizen but i was raised in an island) where we have lot's of people that can afford things but we also have people that can't afford their daily food.

I remember having a gardener and 3 maids at home , 4 if you counted the lady that did the laundry, and i learned so much about them and their families and saw what they had to do to go thru life that i forgot for a minute about them when i bought this cable , i could have probably done more sending them that money that would have served them better.

I am not Mother Teresa nor i want to be , but sometimes the mind plays little tricks with us and i felt really bad after that thing stabbed me in the back.

[Random Hero]

You old dudes with your high frequency hearing loss sure do love your bright & expensive cables. :D

I'm kidding of course, but it might be interesting to see if the 25 and under crowd are as selective with their cables.

I'm 22 and love my EA Lyric HG :JAM

[rah3]

Great opinions -

I agree that the classic 60 to 70's guitar sound is low-fi and was part of the vibe and delivery of the sound. I remember in the early 70's hooking up more than 4 or 5 effects had a real effect on the clean tone. I started using Bill Lawrence cables when they first came out. These were the first cables that I remember making a real difference. I am sure the 100 ft cable Albert Collins used did factor into his sound to a degree.

I do really appreciate the fact that cable manufacturers are creating newer cable that you can factor into the signal chain to real effect. I just see it as part of the evolution of electric guitar. I've been using the Alessandro cables straight into the amps and do find a notable difference to the BL/GL's cables I also use.

I'm also very curious when looking at cables like top line silver core or gold over copper at $2K to $5K (Yikes), for a 20ft length, if these cables are worth purchasing for studio use.

-RAH3

[BluesHarp]

ACtually, if you have a rig that's supposed to be running clean, and you load up on high frequencies from a cable that lets a lot more of those thru, I can see it introducing distortion that might not be musically pleasing. As the harmonics in the sequence get higher, they tend to become harsher (closer intervals to octaves of the fundamental tone). So if you've got a resonant, complex guitar, and amp that can reproduce very high frequencies (say solid state into a JBL speaker or EVL) a very transparent cable might be a very bad idea. We're up for tuning our sound with complex EQ networks (see HRM tonestacks in the Dumble threads), treble or midrange boosters, EQ pedals-why not tune with the cable if that works the best? I have to agree with John that changing EQ at the amp doesn't sound the same as changing EQ on the pedalboard, doesn't sound the same as changing EQ in the cable, doesn't sound the same as rolling off the treble on the guitar...


An excellent point was made here. 1+

Ive recently brought this up with strat pickups. If you dont have tone leaving your guitar, its hard to "create" it with pedals or amps.. in the same way. Harmonics play a huge role in Od's and in amps, and even though a high dollar cable may deliver all those highs you dont want to miss, whose to say its not augmenting them? If so, is that a bad thing?


Now in argument, those highs ( or lows ) can be looked at in the low-fi VS high-fi comparisons for obvious reasons, but if YOU dont like what finnaly comes out of the speaker in the end result... then you may sacrifice something good to get something better.

As has been said tone is very subjective. When I record "blues" harmonica, and I want complex harmonics and overtones, I use 50 year old ham radio elements ( either crystal or magnetic ) that emphasize mids and some lows. Highs are left out not just because they may cause feedback or the instrument is too trebly, but because the tone achieved ( through mainly mids freq's ) is richer due to the complex harmonics produced and they dont have to compete with tons of other overtones produced. High or low harmonics (not harmonicas:-) that sound better in tune just sound.. better. Harsh almost allways = bad thing.

Whe you start listening to your tone you may see notes within notes within notes within notes that enteract in a way that only a math guy could explain.

[jbgordon]

I'm 22 and love my EA Lyric HG :JAM

I'm 21 and really prefer my Lava ELC's.

[daddyo]

I have almost $50 dollars invested in my two George L cables. That's enough for a tight bastard such as myself:) I'll put up with the tone loss.

[lv]

I have almost $50 dollars invested in my two George L cables. That's enough for a tight bastard such as myself:) I'll put up with the tone loss.

You know, though they might not be the most expensive, they are as good as anything else out there. I've tried $500 cables and for certain rigs I would take the GL's every time.

[the_Chris]

You old dudes with your high frequency hearing loss sure do love your bright & expensive cables. :D

I'm kidding of course, but it might be interesting to see if the 25 and under crowd are as selective with their cables.


I'm 23 and I'm very selective about my entire rig including guitar cables and speaker cables.

I actually really like the extended response of the Bill Lawrence patch cables and Lava ELC guitar cables and Mulder Audio speaker cables I use - I don't need to "hype" it to anyone. I like what comes out of my speakers - I get a clear, well balanced tone at loud band volumes and that's always been my goal. I've used cables with higher capacitance and ended up with a muddier signal, so the coloration of these cables are favorable for my rig and my application.

My thoughts are the same as Dave Orbans - I'd rather have more frequencies present than not. However, the key thing to remember here is that peoples individual tastes are all different and some cables work in better applications than others.

For instance, my rig is essentially a Bogner Shiva. It's a darker amp than many others I've played and it's more compressed than most that I've compared it too. For me, the clarity and highend extension of my cable choices work well, for others with a really bright and thin setup to begin with, you may want a cable that filters out the highend and thickens up the mix. I have also used my cables through some brighter amps (like the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe - just needed to turn down the treble a bit) and liked them as well, but some people may simply prefer the coloration of other cables.

Really, as long as a cable is built well and you like the way your rig sounds with it, why mess with anything else? If you're looking for a different sound and want to boost a certain frequency, that's when you should look for a different cable.

[Guitar Josh]

I have almost $50 dollars invested in my two George L cables. That's enough for a tight bastard such as myself:) I'll put up with the tone loss.

Anyone willing to spend $50 for George L's owes to themselves to check out Lava cables from our very own TGP member Lavaman.

[therhodeo]

This thread is just another example of BS that permeates this board.

[OOG]

I think your "Enter" key
is broken.

na

i just like to see
what
i'm typing
and i'm
f***ing blind

re cables
>and any other gear<
whatever works for you
is the way to go

[pdouds]

scott henderson went back to mogami because he said the expensive stuff screwed with the midrange too much. I do own expensive cables, just thought i'd throw that out for discussion.

[Festus]

Aw, geez, I just blew 15 minutes reading through this thread. I gotta get some coffee!! :jo

[macmax77]

oog and Pietro, hehehhehehe

just let me know when u want the music notation....

I am sure u'll love it

[peaky]

If you want your cable to act as a filter ... ok.

In most cases I would rather have the highs go through and turn down the
treble at the amp or guitar, I t is easier to have it and cut it than not have it and try to boost it back up

Spot On! Thats how I view it.

[kimock]

ok, this is very easy to fix.

Get 3 guys in a blind test with the same equipment and play thru the cable that hasn't been "broken in" and then with the other one.

Same equipment , same player same 3 guinea pigs and i will bet you my life they won't be able to tell which cable is which.

The test you're suggesting doesn't address the claim that there is a 40 hour break-in period for the person who is using the cable.

Anyway, if it was a blind test, you couldn't tell the test subjects what they were testing for, you could only ask them to express a preference.

Either way, you're dead. . .:)

rest in peace, sk

[Cary Chilton]

THe Canare or a Proco cable is fine for 99% of guitarists out there. I do have a Klotz which sounds nice, but it is microphonic. I can hear it, when I drop some of the cable on the floor. I just bought a 13 ft melody cable which is nice, but I am dicing it up for patch cables, which was the intention anyway. I don't know what I will do with the klotz yet. I might buy more Canare or melody or try the HG cable. John Phillips post was great. I might add, the George L was and insanely bright cable, EVEN WHEN I ONLY used 4 6 inch patch cables and a 20 ft and a 10 foot canare!!! Changing the patch to canare cable made a huge difference, but I am using a bright swamp ash strat guitar, so changes in brightness is VERY easy to hear. The Klotz, melody and most copper isn't very bright. Seems to be best with guitar. Silver seems to hyped and hiFI sounding.

[alberob]

My rule is close your eyes and listen for what pleases your ears.:horse

[daddyo]

Anyone willing to spend $50 for George L's owes to themselves to check out Lava cables from our very own TGP member Lavaman.
That's $50 cdn for 2 - 20 footers of the thick ones factory assembled. That is a smoking deal here is Canada.

[aaland_brian]

i am not talking about dull or bassy or trebly, i said harshness.

And i will tell you something, the sound was distorted with the expensive one.
I could go out there and buy me whatever cable i want, i was not complaining because it was a question of money, i do keep some expensive ones, it was that VERY expensive cable that started the whole thing and when i took it of the chain, everything went back to normal.

I am going back to playing with a band again this year, and i can't have a distorted sound cause it is mainly clean sounds that we use,hell i wouldn't even use the SD80 with them.

This let's find the perfect tone to the last bit takes us nowhere and only makes us loose a lot of time instead of playing.

I even posted a very complex clip and no one cared for the music because i didn't use any amps, because i prefaced by saying that the tone wasn't good, but strange , ohhhhh so strange that grammy winner G Rubalcaba wanted the tapes and Mark Egan wanted the tapes too , but here no one cared because it wasn't recorded on a two rock.

Buy whatever cable fits you, but please play for at least 40 hours until you "break the cable in" and you can "hear the difference"

One thing i am telling you now thou, i don't have the means to record at this moment, but i remember playing with a TREMOVERB< yes a TREMOVERB and getting more compliments from fellow musicians and people attending a show than my friend using his Matchless.

This is about tweaking and hearing yourself and playing.
While a Peavey Bandit won't get me nowhere when it comes to good equipment there is only a minimal line between them and you can close it out.
I am thinking about buying a two rock because i like it, i won't even post it here when i do as i don't post half of my things, i don't have the need, it just amazed me that a Fulltone cable stopped the harshness and the distorted sound i was getting form the other one.

Not every cable works in every chain like a charm, sometimes less seems to be more.

I am not buying into the hype, and i won't buy a cheapo that doesn't work either, but i will not buy me another Super expensive cable without trying it with the rig i am using at the time.

Thanks for clarifying everything, and giving some good examples. I have tried probably 6-7 different brands of cables through the years and can really tell that some just have better overall tone and playing dynamics to my ears. That being said, even though I have some pretty expensive cables in my rig now I still have some med priced ones that I keep and use in certain situations when I have a really overly bright guitar into a bright amp.

I know exactly what your saying about the amps as well. I have a Mesa Road King and will get a ton of people giving me grief over it, even though it is a great amp and can dial in a ton of tones if you spend the time dialing it in.

The key is finding your sound and not buying into all the hype. I do have to give it up to the overhyped companies though, if I ever own a business that deals in guitar gear, getting a buzz going at the tpg is going to be near the top of my marketing plan, since people around here really do like the next best thing, and have the money to pay for it.

[macmax77]

The test you're suggesting doesn't address the claim that there is a 40 hour break-in period for the person who is using the cable.

Anyway, if it was a blind test, you couldn't tell the test subjects what they were testing for, you could only ask them to express a preference.

Either way, you're dead. . .:)

rest in peace, sk

nooo kimmy:

What i am saying is that if you use the same equipment, same gear and same player and you get 3 guys and play thru one cable without the 40 hours and then with one cable with the 40 hours, i very much doubt that they will hear a difference.

The only one that will is the guy who bought it and:
1)Needs to convince himself he does hear a difference.
2)Is now accustomed to the sound of this cable and his mind plays a trick on him cause he is comparing it to his old cable, not the change this cable had.

I am sure we cannot hear the difference and man let me tell you that my family mocks me because i can't drive a car without listening to small sounds that no one hears till the car breaks down the road on month after.:D

[macmax77]

Thanks for clarifying everything, and giving some good examples. I have tried probably 6-7 different brands of cables through the years and can really tell that some just have better overall tone and playing dynamics to my ears. That being said, even though I have some pretty expensive cables in my rig now I still have some med priced ones that I keep and use in certain situations when I have a really overly bright guitar into a bright amp.

I know exactly what your saying about the amps as well. I have a Mesa Road King and will get a ton of people giving me grief over it, even though it is a great amp and can dial in a ton of tones if you spend the time dialing it in.

The key is finding your sound and not buying into all the hype. I do have to give it up to the overhyped companies though, if I ever own a business that deals in guitar gear, getting a buzz going at the tpg is going to be near the top of my marketing plan, since people around here really do like the next best thing, and have the money to pay for it.

and i agree with you.

I prefer BMW's to Hybrid Toyotas, but it doesn't mean that each one doesn't have it's moment and use.

It is easier to get a great sound from a great equipment than a bad one, but sometimes things don't work when you sum them up together and what can be great in one rig is the worst for the other.

[mibu]

pdouds, no, scott henderson renounced to play the evidence audio cables because he felt that those are very unforgiving regarding the play of the guitar - another example of humbleness and down-to-earth attitude of a brilliant guitar player!...

[Flyin' Brian]

I
Bottom line? "If YOU are happy with the sound you're getting, who cares about anyone else's opinion?"

This says it all and should end the thread.....but........

[jaywalker]

Bugger it. Can anyone build me a true-bypass cable???
:D

[webs]

You old dudes with your high frequency hearing loss sure do love your bright & expensive cables. :D

I'm kidding of course, but it might be interesting to see if the 25 and under crowd are as selective with their cables.

We're more selective- we can actually hear the difference! We just can't pay for the damn things.
Speaking from personal experience and that of my friends (~20 yrs. age group), most of us can hear, rather distinctly, the difference between cables.

[lv]

This thread is just another example of BS that permeates this board.

Have you tried any different cables?

[lv]

Here's a clip of a couple different cables...

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5464058

If you can hear the difference in this clip made with a $300 budget recorder with all the data compression losses, then converted to mp3 with more losses, you might be able to hear even more of a difference in the room.

I'm not suggesting the difference would be noticeable in a band context, but after you've tweaked your amps with tubes, speakers, swapped pickups in your guitar, you might want to try some different cables.

You can go to your local GC and get a couple different ones (they carry Lava ELC now) and if you don't hear any difference, return them....no risk, but you may find something that enhances your tone.

[pdouds]

pdouds, no, scott henderson renounced to play the evidence audio cables because he felt that those are very unforgiving regarding the play of the guitar - another example of humbleness and down-to-earth attitude of a brilliant guitar player!...
here's the link, look at the mogami 2524 video. He said the bass and highs were better, but the mids sounded better with the mogami. He said if you use a cable with too low a capacitance, your pickups start to sound like emg's (direct quote from the video).
http://www.prosoundcommunications.com/english/video/scott_henderson/index.html
not to give you a hard time, i just remembered seeing it on the xotic website.
Regards, PD

[macmax77]

can you listen to the difference between the same cable when you have played it for 2 hours and when you have played it for 40 hours
NOT INSIDE YOUR ROOM, but

With a BAND?

I don't have Cheap cables, but i won't go out there and buy me another cable that costed me what some amps cost.

I threw away the money when i could have bought a good valve amp with that money

[aaland_brian]

Bugger it. Can anyone build me a true-bypass cable???
:D

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii240/aaland_brian/wireless.jpg

Done:roll

[the_Chris]

here's the link, look at the mogami 2524 video. He said the bass and highs were better, but the mids sounded better with the mogami. He said if you use a cable with too low a capacitance, your pickups start to sound like emg's (direct quote from the video).
http://www.prosoundcommunications.com/english/video/scott_henderson/index.html
not to give you a hard time, i just remembered seeing it on the xotic website.
Regards, PD


While I like Scott Henderson's playing.... I can't really agree with much of what he said. Cable capacitance has a lot more to do than just with the midrange. Longer runs of cable aren't going to give you more midrange, it's going to give you less gain, less punch, less highend and a muddier, thicker tone. Having played EMGs and disliking them, I think he's crazy for likening the feel and sound of active pickups to lower capacitance cable. The only way I can sorta see what he's talking about is the clarity you get from the lower capacitance, but that's where it ends. I don't really understand how he thinks having a clearer signal suddenly sucks out the mids and makes it hard to cut through the band mix. To each his own I guess...

[VaughnC]

Here's one of those "believe it or not" things!!

Back in the mid '60's (when I started playing guitar), I purchased two curly guitar cords that are a little better in quality than Radio Shack...and I still use them when I gig today :eek:. I've replaced their plugs numerous times when the inner conductor eventually breaks from jumping around on stage but they still sound better than any other's I've tried! Talk about breaking in a cable...40 years should do it ;). Maybe its that 60's mojo!!

Also, for some reason, some guitar cables (not all) sound better to me in one direction than the other. The best way I can describe it is the "bad" direction generally sounds to my ears like there's a slight haze surrounding the signal :confused:.

[pdouds]

While I like Scott Henderson's playing.... I can't really agree with much of what he said. Cable capacitance has a lot more to do than just with the midrange. Longer runs of cable aren't going to give you more midrange, it's going to give you less gain, less punch, less highend and a muddier, thicker tone. Having played EMGs and disliking them, I think he's crazy for likening the feel and sound of active pickups to lower capacitance cable. The only way I can sorta see what he's talking about is the clarity you get from the lower capacitance, but that's where it ends. I don't really understand how he thinks having a clearer signal suddenly sucks out the mids and makes it hard to cut through the band mix. To each his own I guess...i play sommer spirit cables (mid grade) and they sound great. I was just throwing this out to see what everybody thought about his stance on the whole thing. I use the evidence speaker cable (bought them all from lava man), and am very happy with the whole deal. there are so many variables the the whole "tone" thing, I think the cables you use are an important piece of the puzzle, but realistically, a lot of pro's just GL's and are perfectly happy with it. I guess as long as it works for you, that's cool. (-:

[aaland_brian]

if it's expensive then it must be picked apart to find flaws and be made fun of :rolleyes:


I fixed your quote to say what you really meant. By the way, I love your attitude it's great.;)

[dk123123dk]

There are no right or wrong answers when it comes to music.

I would love to hear which cable was the culprit though.

dk

[aaland_brian]

Me too, I'm a very curious person and this is very interesting stuff.

[cugel]

thats a good post cause i always have to bear in mind that the recordings i love (ie live ones from the 60s and 70s) were just done with regular old cable

[devbro]

don't forget also that a new cable sounds not at its full potential. only after about 40 hours of playing through it it will settle and sound the best! I have fully verifyed this and it's not "legend" or something like this...

I heard if you rub dishwashing liquid on the entire length of the cable and play rap music through it all day it will speed break-in:rolleyes:.

BTW....I still have dib's on this horrible cable when he decides to sell.

[mibu]

pdouds, I know those clips, of course. what I was telling you is what scott told me last year when playing in romania (I was taking care of him and his band and naturally profited of the time spent together...).

lv - yes, the difference between the two cables can be heared. the better cables sound more balanced. the worser have an unevenness in the lower midrange and lows - they tend to sound wooffy. some other pricey cables have exacerbated and unnatural highs also...

now I said go for the more balanced tone - then you can build your tone with the pedals/amps/speakers combination.

[TJSmitty]

Using a brighter cable and turning down the treble at the amp does not sound the same as using a less bright cable.

The cable is part of the guitar from an electrical point of view and doesn't just roll off treble (all cables do BTW, just to differing degrees) - it also actually modifies the frequency response of the pickups, and lowers the resonant peak - ie it changes the fundamental tone of the guitar, like changing pickups. No amount of EQ at the amp will do the same thing.

The effect is purely to do with the capacitance of the cable. Capacitance is determined by the way the cable is made, the materials used in the insulation ('dielectric') and its length - a cable twice as long will have double the capacitance. High-quality cables are usually - but not always - lower capacitance than cheaper ones, and it's quite possible that the high-quality cable raises the resonant peak of the pickup high enough to make it shrill and harsh. The cable you use is a simple way of tuning the tone of your rig.

There is no right or wrong - you aren't "missing out" on something if you use a high-capacitance cable, you are just choosing a different tone. Personally I don't like the tone of most of the high-end cables I've tried, and I also specifically use a 20' cable even with my own choice because I don't like the slight spikiness of the tone of a 10' one. (Also remember that a 10' curly cable is actually 30 or 40 feet long if you measure the length of the wire.)

Don't look down on cheap cables until you've actually heard the difference and know what it sounds like. Tone is not dependent on cost or even directly related - in fact, some of the brightest cable you will ever find is TV aerial cable, and yes it does work as a guitar cord. Albert Collins used it for his super-long cable so he could walk out into the crowd in the days before wireless, and no-one would say he had a dull tone :).

This all matters because a guitar is a simple passive system with the cable directly loading the pickups, so it's very important to tone. Signal cable after a buffer of any kind and speaker cables have very much less or approaching zero effect on tone because they do not interact with the rest of the system in the same way, so don't assume that because you can hear a big difference with your guitar cord you then must be able to with other cables - it's not the same situation.

Best post in this thread.

[BillyK]

Best post in this thread.

Agreed.
Thanks John.

[pdouds]

pdouds, I know those clips, of course. what I was telling you is what scott told me last year when playing in romania (I was taking care of him and his band and naturally profited of the time spent together...).

lv - yes, the difference between the two cables can be heared. the better cables sound more balanced. the worser have an unevenness in the lower midrange and lows - they tend to sound wooffy. some other pricey cables have exacerbated and unnatural highs also...

now I said go for the more balanced tone - then you can build your tone with the pedals/amps/speakers combination.
cool you got to meet him. he sounds like a really nice guy.I'm happy with what i've got, but in the future, i will probably just go with mogami or gepco, it's way cheaper, and works great.

[pdouds]

Here's one of those "believe it or not" things!!

Back in the mid '60's (when I started playing guitar), I purchased two curly guitar cords that are a little better in quality than Radio Shack...and I still use them when I gig today :eek:. I've replaced their plugs numerous times when the inner conductor eventually breaks from jumping around on stage but they still sound better than any other's I've tried! Talk about breaking in a cable...40 years should do it ;). Maybe its that 60's mojo!!

Also, for some reason, some guitar cables (not all) sound better to me in one direction than the other. The best way I can describe it is the "bad" direction generally sounds to my ears like there's a slight haze surrounding the signal :confused:.is that like "purple haze, all around"? :rolleyes:

[soulsonic]

Coily curly cords rule! They are the only choice when playing through vintage pedals if you want maximum mojo. They're not much fun to use on stage cuz they get busted up too easily, but they're great for recording.

[woof*]

Coily curly cords rule! They are the only choice when playing through vintage pedals if you want maximum mojo. They're not much fun to use on stage cuz they get busted up too easily, but they're great for recording.
i agree. from the diaz/tonequest report. i have tried this experiment with the same results:

Yeah, it made them clearer and more appropriate for being used with a lot of different effects. Lenny Kravitz was the opening act for a lot of the Dylan dates when I was on the tour, and I really took him under my wing. I was the only one that didn’t call him… you know, the word... In the Dylan camp, everyone is very prejudiced – it’s very tough to be around those people. Anyway, I sent messages to both Lenny Kravitz and Eric Johnson that part of the secret to getting great tone was using weaker pickups and coil cables. The coil cables add a lot of capacitance and inductance to your signal chain, therefore, when you’re playing through a Marshall, you’re cutting back on the high frequencies. When we were doing the In Step album with Stevie, I had an endorsement with Monster Cables. They would send me all of this free stuff and I was very excited because I could manage these things for a guy like Stevie, who really didn’t even know how to wash dishes. All he knew how to do was play the guitar, but God bless him for that, because he really did something with what he knew. Anyway, I took these cables we got to Stevie and he said, “I hate these things.” I asked him, “Why, man, they’re the best cables in the world?” He said, “They pass to much electricity.” Those were his exact words, and I’ll never forget it as long as I live. “They pass too much electricity.”

They were too efficient…

Yeah, so he sent me out to the local Radio Shack and told me to buy every gray coil cord they had – not the black ones, only the gray ones. And I thought, “Hhmm, this freakin’ hick from Dallas is telling me this?” I got them and ran them through my capacitance meter and found out that they added like almost .05 mfd to the signal chain. That made it sound solid – it was like having a tone control, and the brightness and harshness that the Marshalls had was eliminated. There isn’t a single picture of Hendrix… back then they already had high-end cables, but there isn’t a single picture of Hendrix where you see him playing with a straight cable. Why? This is something I brought up to Eric Johnson – whether he heard me or not I don’t know, but it could be the second coming of coil cables.

[mibu]

yeah, I know the story...
...just that the harshness of the marshalls don't come from the preamp or from anything that goes into it, but from the pushed power tubes! when they work in the pushed realm, there's nothing you can do before them to cut from the highs, only after (speakers etc.).

[macmax77]

I heard if you rub dishwashing liquid on the entire length of the cable and play rap music through it all day it will speed break-in:rolleyes:.

BTW....I still have dib's on this horrible cable when he decides to sell.

i took your word and pm'd you, let me know if you want it

[g.griffith]

A quality cable isn't going to degrade your tone any more than a cheap cable will "improve" it. Completely laughable. Doesn't matter what "your friend" or even the "best tech of the nation" says, lol. The original post here is the most vague, baseless and uninformative thread in a while.

[macmax77]

A quality cable isn't going to degrade your tone any more than a cheap cable will "improve" it. Completely laughable. Doesn't matter what "your friend" or even the "best tech of the nation" says, lol. The original post here is the most vague, baseless and uninformative thread in a while.

i am sorry about that, write your own informative thread and i will be happy to read it.

I didn't talk about degrading tone,i said the cable made the sound harsh , too punchy with MY RIG.

ahhh, at least when i write in spanish people seem to know how to read or i seem to know how to write.Duh.

[Sniper-V]

i took your word and pm'd you, let me know if you want it

How much is it by the way?

If no brand name can be revealed, then how about the price?

I recall hearing it costing more than some of our amps!?!

[macmax77]

How much is it by the way?

If no brand name can be revealed, then how about the price?

I recall hearing it costing more than some of our amps!?!

pm'd

[mcuguitar]

Scott Henderson humble? Hmmm...that's a new one on me.

[mcuguitar]

And there is some serious weirdness going on in this thread. Quality cables always sound better, and more importantly, are MORE RELIABLE than $15.00 jobbies. More reliable AND... I for one can hear a sound difference. I'm not saying I'd spend $1000 for a cable, but when the difference between quality and poop is $25.00, the answer is a bit easier for me. But I'd venture to guess that the same people who say that good cables don't make a difference, well they're the ones who think an SM57 mic is great for recording vocals. I read that in the recording forum, and almost fell off my couch laughing. Peace, Jon.

[rewog]

For the guys here who like to see everything in absolutes...
One of the guys who apparently preferred a cheap cable over an expensive one was SRV.

[mcuguitar]

Well rewog, it's not absolutes. It's my personal experience. And I'm going to "hear" for the best sound possible...to my ears. I do know Stevie preferred a certain type of nickel strings, and GHS was involved in that to some degree...so he was picky too about certain things. Rumor, conjecture are all things easily said. Why not play through the best quality gear you can afford? Some guys love the tone of a Mesa F50, and think it's the bee's knees...I'm not one of those guys! BTW...Stevie Ray was picky about the guits he played, wasn't he? Nuff said.

[rewog]

Just an observation... see, this is an absolute:-
"Quality cables always sound better".
Better is subjective.
Better for Jazz, Metal, Distorted, Clean ?

It wasn't just directed at you..there have been several "absolutes" quoted on this thread.
Personally, I don't think it's that clear cut that the more you pay, the better the cable will sound for whatever you choose to use it for.
There's also the variable of someone's rig.
:AOK

[mcuguitar]

Reliability is not subjective...a cable either works or it doesn't. It's a fact. I've found that good cables like Mogami hold up under heavy gigging. I have a bass player that thinks like you, and my bandmates and I are always laughing because he uses cheap cables, and he's the king of snap, crackle and pop. He finally bought a good quality Monster cable, and he said, "I can finally hear my bass." Well we could finally hear it too...with no snap or crackle or pop. I like to hedge my bets on my musical gear, because I'm out there making money on it. Part of sounding better, is not having an type of unwanted noise from my rig...the good name brand cables have served me well, and I've got a whirlwind that is 21 years old and done about 1000 gigs, and still going strong. Guess what?...it wasn't cheap to buy in 1987. And everyone has an opinion, which is painfully obvious from the comments on this thread. But not many have an educated, experienced opinion...that's a whole different animal.

[rewog]

I have a bass player that thinks like you....

Now you're telling me how I think.

I have good cables, and I think good cables are a great idea, but I'm not naive enough to think that the more you spend, the better the cable will sound, and I know enough to know that not all cables will suit all situations... no matter what they cost.
There are pricey cables I don't like, and ones that I do.

This thread was never about $15 cables that won't hold up to gigging as far as I can see.

Read the post on the first page by John Philips. It's the most educated opinion that's been offered here IMO.

[redpill]

Stevie used such huge strings
he HAD to use shitty cables
or he would'a kilt all those bitchen amps:D

dig
what ever works for you
works for you
period

who gives a rat's ass why

Truer words have never been written.

It's so easy to argue about what is best when it comes to gear, because we are always being marketed to with one data point or another. And nobody minds the notion that they are getting the "best" tone, so there is a tendency for even the most reasonable person to at least imply from time to time that their choice is the best one. But best, of course, doesn't exist. Either you like something or you don't. That's it.

[tonewave]

[quote=macmax77;3491446]

He was right, did it and i feel like a mule for falling with the expensive cable thing.

how expensive is expensive? thats relative in itself.
Take a 15inch standard cable

crap cord=$20--you get what you pay for, its pretty random out there

pricey cord=$70-150---some differences (improvements?) can be heard, ie
more frequencies, sustain, less loading, dullness, noise.
definitely worth it for some people.

is it really worth it cord=$300-6000----probably this is in the range of that last %5 of subjective improvement, and thats something that not a lot of people feel that the improvement (difference) is worth the extra $


I don't know if this is the way to go or not, but i am guessing that those dudes we try to emulate didn't spend the whole day looking for a specific thing, they just played and sounded like heaven.

I think thats a romantic notion.
Hendrix is renowned for pushing the barriers of what the current day equipment could do, helping the development of new effects and more powerful amps. He was constantly chasing the sound in his head.


I have this friend that plays cheap pedals, thru a Fender HR and everyone stops to listen to him because no one believes how good he sounds.

Amen, he's chasing the sound in his head and has the ability the get it out of whatever gear he's using at the time.

As for gl's, they are good, but they do have a hi-mid range bark that gets worse the harder you play, as well as a bass roll off.
It was only when I heard vovox cable that I could hear/feel what gl's affect had on my base sound, I wouldnt have believed it otherwise.
So yes, I think the only way to do this stuff is to check it out for yourself.
and to keep chasing the sounds in your head....

[BluesHarp]

I have found that the cleaner the intended sound, the more open and wide you want it to be. Example: $150 cord on my 814 Limited Taylor Acoustic that lets in a wide wonderful spectrum...is well, wonderful.

But, the more gain you start to obtain, the more filtered or notched things become or else you will get too much noise or too busy of a sound. Some pedals focus on mids... some are scooped for lows and highs. Its not hard to believe that Hendrix would pick cables that might roll off highs due to the gain he was shooting for.

Why not have different cables for different songs ( studio ) or on different gigs? I will say this, anybody who pays more than a couple hundred on a cable is overcompensating for a lack of talent or a small d***. /:-]

[dbeeman]

Using a brighter cable and turning down the treble at the amp does not sound the same as using a less bright cable.

The cable is part of the guitar from an electrical point of view and doesn't just roll off treble (all cables do BTW, just to differing degrees) - it also actually modifies the frequency response of the pickups, and lowers the resonant peak - ie it changes the fundamental tone of the guitar, like changing pickups. No amount of EQ at the amp will do the same thing.
.....

The esteemed and oft quoted Mr. Phillips makes a good point.

While you can approximate the effect with the guitar's tone control, it is not exactly the same. The tone control cap is generally not the same value as total cable capacitance and the tone control has some resistance (unless it is at 0), adding this "R" to the LRC network of pickups, guitar volume gutar to controls and cable. Therefore the frequency at which the tone control begins to roll off the treble is usually lower AND the "Q" or sharpness of the filter is less than it is with a guitar cable.

There have been some exceptions to this. The low impedance Les Paul Personal, Professional and Recording model a had a decade switch which was just a capacitor selector. - so you could go from cheap coiled cord sound to a bright and airy tone. I think the "tone shaper?" tone control that is marketed now does the same thing.

[Cary Chilton]

best techs in the nation thing, still making me puke....sorry

[Buddy Boy]

Years ago(14?) Guitar Player did a shootout with 50 guitar cables. One of the favorites was the Horizon Vintage II. Since they are made about 50 miles from me I tried a couple against a Monster Studio Pro. I returned the Monster and have used the Horizon's ever since. I thought they sounded more open. Anybody try/use these. I'm open to suggestion since I can't afford to try every high end cable out there. I'm definitely leaning towards Lava Cable as a trial choice.

[macmax77]

Just an observation... see, this is an absolute:-
"Quality cables always sound better".
Better is subjective.
Better for Jazz, Metal, Distorted, Clean ?

It wasn't just directed at you..there have been several "absolutes" quoted on this thread.
Personally, I don't think it's that clear cut that the more you pay, the better the cable will sound for whatever you choose to use it for.
There's also the variable of someone's rig.
:AOK

I have to say he is right

Since this thread began, which i will be deleting soon

I said With My Rig.

That includes a guitar that is custom, the pups i am using, etc.
As i replied to one of the fellow forumites, the cable sounds excellent with one of my guitars and one of the Tverbs, i will get back the other one next month, but those "little" amps are in the caribbean and i only get to play them each 2 months or so when i am back there.

I also bought a cheap cable that is not cutting it, a 10 feet Fulltone, when played alone it is not working, when i pair it with the board and the other 10 feet cable , it sounds good, but with my actual rig in the USA it sounds too bright.

As rewog said, there is no absolutes and while one cable works great with a Tremoverb and the other guitar, it is sounding bright , harsh and distorted with My Budda and the guitar i have here.

I sold the expensive cable just because i found someone back in the caribbean who could afford it and needed it for his studio.

And i will probably sell the Fulltones too at one point, let's see what they do with another amp.

Money put into a rig means nothing, i have found some great sounds with cheaper equipment and gotten so many compliments both from people in an audience as from fellow musicians.

I have also posted a very bad sounding clip with great music to see your responses, got none, seems that if it is not rock it doesn't work.

That was recorded with a batteries radio 17 years ago, but as i recall , Mark Egan wanted the tapes when he heard the music played live.

But no one here dared to say anything because it didn't have the right sound.

Where am i going , well, i have seen lot's of people with great sound and nothing on the ball, not saying that this is the case here, but sometimes we look at the shallow things and not what matters, which is the music and art.

Here is the clip again for those who care for something else that R&R

It was recorded without a pick, in a rehearsal, only bass-drums-saxo and guitar thru a V8 thru a very old console with home speakers.

No amp, so don't expect a good sound, but musicwise it is a bit mature and probably harmonically speaking, a bit .... you tell me.
There is only one guitar, no keyboards, he guitar does the harmonic parts but also doubles some of the saxo lines, live, no double takes or anything like that

wait till after 1:36, maybe you'll like it.

and yes , the guitar sounds like a marimba, but who cares, listen to the music, it is not a 3 chord progression in 4/4

Listen to Jar
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789892

[John Phillips]

Years ago(14?) Guitar Player did a shootout with 50 guitar cables. One of the favorites was the Horizon Vintage II. Since they are made about 50 miles from me I tried a couple against a Monster Studio Pro. I returned the Monster and have used the Horizon's ever since. I thought they sounded more open. Anybody try/use these.Yes, I use Horizon Vintage II exclusively, and have done for about the last ten years - the same set I bought back then, plus two extra ones I got about five years ago. In that time I have not had one single failure, or heard any cable I like better - although admittedly I haven't tried too many... why bother? They're perfect anyway. They sound great, don't break, don't crackle, resist tangling, don't pick up stage dirt, and look cool (I purposely bought all different colors so I can see what goes where quickly)...

No, they are not the absolute brightest. But they do sound very full and even and I don't have any need or desire for more top-end. They are now just part of 'my sound'.

[Mike T]

I've been using George L's for years now and they are the most reliable, quietist, and transparent cables I have ever used. Myself, I can't ask for much more than that. I just use common sense how I wind them and run them.

[doublee]

Macmax: great clip. thank you!

[macmax77]

Macmax: great clip. thank you!

thanks!!!!
i think i have the recordings in MP3 format, so if you want them, just let me know.

Pando should work if i have to send them online.

Thanks again!!!!

[funkycam]

I have some new cables on my board, the BL cables and i love em.

I have a very expensive cable from my guitar to my board and a Fulltone from my board to my guitar.

I will keep the Name of the Expensive cable to myself because of what i am about to say now.

I started getting some harshness from my guitar, i felt i could here it more with the Neck pickup.

So i called one of the most respected Builders-Techs of the nation and explained to him everything i was going thru and told him about all of my equipment.

He asked me if i had changed my cables recently and i explained and when i told him about this exquisite cable that i bought his reaction was GET RID OF THAT CABLE and go get a cheapo at your local music store.


Then he explained to me SRV sounds and what Jimmi Hendrix did with his cables and he explained lot's of technical stuff as why i had to change the Expensive cable.

He was right, did it and i feel like a mule for falling with the expensive cable thing.

I don't know if this is the way to go or not, but i am guessing that those dudes we try to emulate didn't spend the whole day looking for a specific thing, they just played and sounded like heaven.

I have this friend that plays cheap pedals, thru a Fender HR and everyone stops to listen to him because no one believes how good he sounds.


Back to playing now, guess the Whirlwind won this round.

Who cares what anyone tells you.
What sounds better to you?
In an AB test Cheap cables do not sound as good as monsters TO ME.
George ls are my compromise for tone & reliability.

[Mark Robinson]

Listen, listen, listen, change, listen, listen some more, change back, listen some more. I have been embarrased by my pre-conceptions about what cable might sound better too many times.

Anything is possible. In the first place, nobody is aiming for fidelity, if you don't believe that, take your guitar to your favorite studio, ask for a direct box and listen to it through a flat recording channel, eq it a bit if you like. I would propose that very few of us would consider that a desirable tone.

I do know a few things, a shorter cable will pass more signal than a longer cable made from the same raw materials. Whether you prefer the shorter or longer is between your ears, it is a decision.

Measuring doesn't tell us enough. The signals used to measure and capture date via FFT Melissa, etc. systems don't resemble what we want to do with cable.

John Philips is right as rain, as usual, about the cable offering a change in signal characteristics which is not equivalent to adjustment in amp tone stacks.

I've tried lots of varying quality cables, and decided I don't generally necessarily prefer reduced capacitance clarity all the time. At one point I had my system off the charts nasally, from over-simplifying my cabling to one "clear" choice. So a mix is good for me and sometimes a longer cable seems like a good idea, but not very often. I don't like jacket noise, so that eliminates some choices that otherwise sound really nice.

All of it is easily audible and fun to explore. And if folks don't think so, I recommend more listening, and then more listening, and try to enjoy the process. It's a lot of fun. Get together with some friends who have different stuff, listen to it, and hopefully play some music too. You don't necessarily need to spend a lot of money.

[Ace_F4i]

AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!



i have to stand in a particular way as to not disturb the chord which i have twisted and ducktaped together to continue working. My tube amp still sounds good but i really do notice a difference when i use my friend's cable and it is only a whirlwind. it sounds .... more. more volume. more gain. more omph, more response, and i guess more frequencies are available to be boosted by the EQ. i'll be buying a mogami platinum as soon as i get my grant refund check from my university. god bless tone.



does anyone know if expensive speaker cables make a difference? send me a PM if you have any suggestions.

[Mac-P]

what are the different versions of the Eternities?










































:D

[bobmeredith]

Great clip Mate,

Lot's of great influences there; Sco, Coryell, Brecker, Martino etc. Lot's of really nice outside ideas going on.

[Shaman]

Here is the clip again for those who care for something else that R&R

It was recorded without a pick, in a rehearsal, only bass-drums-saxo and guitar thru a V8 thru a very old console with home speakers.

No amp, so don't expect a good sound, but musicwise it is a bit mature and probably harmonically speaking, a bit .... you tell me.
There is only one guitar, no keyboards, he guitar does the harmonic parts but also doubles some of the saxo lines, live, no double takes or anything like that

wait till after 1:36, maybe you'll like it.

and yes , the guitar sounds like a marimba, but who cares, listen to the music, it is not a 3 chord progression in 4/4

Listen to Jar
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789892

Wow! Fantastic composition/jam and really incredible playing, all of you on that clip! Amazing you got what got out of the guitar without a pick. A real pleasure to listen to. I love to bang my head to AC/DC etc. as much as the next bloke, but I'm also a big fan of John Zorn, Lounge Lizards, Jazz Passengers, Henry Threadgill et al but haven't been listening to them much lately, so found your clip really inspiring! (Albeit quite humbling as well. :-) Thanks for sharing that and your insight about music - it's so easy for the soul to get distracted by the bits and bytes (speaking for myself), but to have great music like that bring us back to what matters. That could be played on my cell phone speakerphone and still kick ass over 95% of the stuff that's out there. Well done, sir, and again thanks for posting it! :AOK

[kimock]

Since this thread began, which i will be deleting soon

You can pull the plug the plug on the thread anytime you want, but please leave the clip. . .

Listen to Jar
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789892That's the best clip I've ever heard on TGP.

Screw the cable, the band sounds like Hermeto. . .
It doesn't get much better than that in this life.

peace

[macmax77]

wow, thanks for the responses guys.

My face turned red, thanks again, if any of you is interested in some of the music i can either send it thru some sort of app(maybe pando) or record a cd and send it your way.

i think i have some more songs that we recorded at that time in a rehearsal and also one or two live, but the quality is like that first one, so feel free to pm me and again

thanks

there is another clip on that page , it is called Jan.
take care you all.

[jda]

The crystal lattice stuff is a red herring. Guitar cords are not single crystals - very far from it.

What does happen is impurity and grain boundary migration. Current flow can make these things happen faster. That is why it is difficult to build very small (micro/nano size) interconnects - the current flow moves the impurities and boundaries around and causes shorts.

What effect this has on sound, I haven't studied, but the wire is changing as current passes through it.