Making sense of New Sensor Corp.

[jbird]

In my little bit of research into tubular options, I've noticed several different "brands" or "labels" of the same type (KT88/6550 in my case) of tube all made in the same Xpo-Pul factory (Reflektor) out of Saratov, Russia. These include: Electro Harmonix, Sovtek, Tung Sol, Svetlana, and the Gold Lion reissue. Now, I've read many different reviews on these, and looked at the cost differences, and have to ask: What and how are the differences between these tubes as it relates to them coming out of the same factory? How could one tube type out of the same factory have so many different characteristics? Is it an inconsistency within the factory, as it specs tubes? So say Sovtek accepts a spec'd tube within so 'n so, and a $$ Gold Lion is spec'd here? Or, perhaps they run in batches, the different "brands"? Anybody enlighten me on the subject, I find it a bit interesting!:munch

[Blue Strat]

It IS interesting. Keep in mind that the different varieties of tubes have been released over many years. You can see obvious differences in contruction between various 12ax7s in most cases. You can hear differences too. In other cases, the differences may be in materials or parts of the tube that aren't visible from the outside.

A lot of it may also be marketing, possibly to avoid a "bad rap" for a certain product without tarnishing the rest of the product line or newer (improved?) versions of the same tube design.

You could also ask the same question of General Motors. They're all cars, right? ;)

[jockman]

I have a pair of Reflektor made Svetlana KT88's and a pair of EH KT88's, and there is a definite difference in sound (to my ears!!) The svets are nice and warm/glassy while the eh's are bright and aggressive, The Gold Lion being the most expensive of the bunch, DO get good reviews though, but again, they are more expensive and 'allegedly' better made..

Jon

[Rosewood]

Heck, I'm just glad somebody is trying to make a tube.

[slider313]

New Sensors prices just went up on all their tubes.

[Rosewood]

New Sensors prices just went up on all their tubes.
Fighting the Russians can be expensive.

[mc5nrg]

The ruble or whatever its called is probably up against the $$- Russia is riding high on petro wealth.

[rockon1]

You could also ask the same question of General Motors. They're all cars, right? ;)

Interesting anology. Being a mech for the last 30 years Ive seen that for a while (not so much nowadays) many of the cars from different divisions were virtually identical short of a few cosmectic changes. Kind of like different labels on tubes.

I looked a Sovtek EL34WXT and an EH EL34 I had and couldnt find a single difference in thier construction. Maybe there was but it wasnt visible. As you mentioned some of them are obvious,some are not. IMO some may just be relabeled but I cant say that for sure. At any rate Im glad they are still producing them though. Bob

[Blue Strat]

Interesting anology. Being a mech for the last 30 years Ive seen that for a while (not so much nowadays) many of the cars from different divisions were virtually identical short of a few cosmectic changes. Kind of like different labels on tubes.



But an Escalade isn't a Camaro, is it? ;)

[mark norwine]

you can't make sense. I wrote about this in another post just yesterday where someone asked if EH tubes were junk. I wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~

"Junk" might be too strong. That said:

My problem with New Sensor tubes is that "you don't know what's what" or "who's making what"....

I suppose you need to believe that everything is coming out of the Reflektor plant, because MM owns it, so it begs the question: what differentiates a particular EH tube from a "Sovtek" tube of the same designation? Or, now that he's bought the naming rights Tung-Sol, Mullard, Svetlana....what's what?

Moreover, are these even "6L6's" or "5AR4's", etc.? Or are they just the "closest, passable, russian tube" that would seem to work in the application?

I'm not saying "YES". I'm saying "I don't have a clue!" NS's marketing strategy seems to be founded on "trust us".

Confusing is putting it mildly.

I buy JJ tubes. If it says JJ on the box, I know who made it, and I know they're striving to make their tubes to spec.

[Red Planet]

Regardless of the construction the one thing that is apparent NS has done is increase its share in the market. Its easy to see. Just surf the web for Tube dealers and count how many NS products they sell against the amount of other brands. With all the "different" versions available NS has way more product over all the other brands combined. Add to that the fancy names that many folks are gonna buy just because it looks good and you start to see the marketing advantage. It is great that they offer so many products in one way but bad in another. Right now we have lots of choices but eventually we may have less choices because of NS strong arming the market. We may look up one day have only NS to choose from.

[mark norwine]

Add to that the fancy names that many folks are gonna buy just because it looks good...

But does anyone really think they're getting a Mullard or a Tung-Sol?

[Blue Strat]

But does anyone really think they're getting a Mullard or a Tung-Sol?

Yes, most of the tube buying public which are people who never knew what Mullard and Tung Sol were (companies that made GOOD tubes back in "the day").

[Blue Strat]

you can't make sense. I wrote about this in another post just yesterday where someone asked if EH tubes were junk. I wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~

"Junk" might be too strong. That said:

My problem with New Sensor tubes is that "you don't know what's what" or "who's making what"....

I suppose you need to believe that everything is coming out of the Reflektor plant, because MM owns it, so it begs the question: what differentiates a particular EH tube from a "Sovtek" tube of the same designation? Or, now that he's bought the naming rights Tung-Sol, Mullard, Svetlana....what's what?

Moreover, are these even "6L6's" or "5AR4's", etc.? Or are they just the "closest, passable, russian tube" that would seem to work in the application?

I'm not saying "YES". I'm saying "I don't have a clue!" NS's marketing strategy seems to be founded on "trust us".

Confusing is putting it mildly.

I buy JJ tubes. If it says JJ on the box, I know who made it, and I know they're striving to make their tubes to spec.

But what does it really matter? We know they're all made in Russia and marketed by New Sensor, right? We know that they're cheap new production tubes so we can't expect NOS longevity or quality. We're not going to blindly assume that anything labeled Tung Sol is good (they're not) or that everything labeled Electro Harmonix (or ANY of the other NS brand names) is bad (they're not), so we have to evaluate each item on it's own merits.

[jbird]

It's as if this Xpo-Pul (Reflektor) plant is like some hidden nuclear facility! You'd think from the various reviews, that there would have to be some differences within a given tube type. Maybe like GM, theres different production lines running at the same time? Or, like Mesa, where they're different product lines are done in batches? I would, as stated above, find it unbeleivable that a certain tube type would be of the same production line/process and then relabeled. But, this is my curiosity in searching out various tubes, I'd still like to know!

[Red Planet]

But does anyone really think they're getting a Mullard or a Tung-Sol?

Are you saying all the tube buying public is equally informed? From teenagers to old hacks like me?

Look around at some of the posts on the net about these tubes. I get tickled when folks compare the NS Mullard EL34 to the sound of a Mullard. Sounds just like one. :crazyguy


Like I said before if they come out with 97 different versions of tubes its fine with me. My fear is later down the road our choices will be limitted because of this. I hope it all goes swell and we have many choices to eternity and beyond.

[Groovey Records]

Two big questions

"I've noticed several different "brands" or "labels" of the same type (KT88/6550 in my case) of tube all made in the same Xpo-Pul factory (Reflektor) out of Saratov, Russia. These include: Electro Harmonix, Sovtek, Tung Sol, Svetlana, and the Gold Lion reissue."

Are any of the "New" type tubes made by companies other then this one? Are there other choices then EH, Tung-Sol, Svetlana, Winged C, "Mullard" etc.-the more easily available tubes of today? Is there an alternative other then NOS. Is their another modern manufacturer?

Mike, hey thanx for the NOS tubes. I havent put them into the amps yet.

Other then swapping them into the chassis what do I need to do to check them and what are the best conditions for storage?

Thanks
Groovey Records

Listening to The Jeff Beck Group- Produced by Steve Cropper
On Vinyl of course

[Blue Strat]

Mike, hey thanx for the NOS tubes. I havent put them into the amps yet.

Other then swapping them into the chassis what do I need to do to check them and what are the best conditions for storage?

Thanks
Groovey Records

Listening to The Jeff Beck Group- Produced by Steve Cropper
On Vinyl of course

You betcha! Plugging them into an amp is the best way to check them. If you bought power tubes, be sure to adjust the bias for them. Start with the bias pot set at the lowest setting (using your existing tubes) before plugging in the new tubes.

No specific storage procedure. A dry place would be better than a damp place though.

[Groovey Records]

So if the amps self biasing I can drop in the matched set of Mullard EL 84's that I got from you straight in ?

No testing bias with a multi meter or anything. Can a sound diferance be percieved from which plug which EL84 goes in to

I also got a couple of Mullard 12AX7's from you should I go 1 at a time after I test the El 84''s in V1 slot? I guess so?

thanks
Listening to Beck-Ola
On Vinyl of course

[Blue Strat]

So if the amps self biasing I can drop in the matched set of Mullard EL 84's that I got from you straight in ?

No testing bias with a multi meter or anything. Can a sound diferance be percieved from which plug which EL84 goes in to

I also got a couple of Mullard 12AX7's from you should I go 1 at a time after I test the El 84''s in V1 slot? I guess so?

thanks
Listening to Beck-Ola
On Vinyl of course

Yeah, I'd try the pair of EL84s first (no biasing for a self biasing amp) and then try the 12AX7s one at a time so you know which tubes/sockets have the most effect on tone.

[Groovey Records]

Two big questions

"Are any of the "New" type tubes made by companies other then this one? Are there other choices then EH, Tung-Sol, Svetlana, Winged C, "Mullard" etc.-the more easily available tubes of today? Is there an alternative other then NOS. Is their another modern manufacturer?"


Still wondering anybody else actually making tubes? American, Dutch? Chinese, Germans, Lillipuddians?

Groovey Records

[rooster]

Still wondering anybody else actually making tubes? American, Dutch? Chinese, Germans, Lillipuddians?

Groovey Records

JJ is an independent company in Slovakia, and they make their own stuff. I happen to like it a LOT, for new stuff anyway, although some disagree. Western Electric just acquired all of EI's tooling/manufacturing. For the last couple years, they haven't been able to reliably manufacture anything there, and Western Electric has been manufacturing new 300B's for many years now. Hopefully, they can transport the tooling back here and start making 12AX7's and the like. It'd be nice to buy some USA stuff again.

Oh, and I think Groove Tubes is assembling the 6L6's in California, but the innards are made overseas.

rooster.

[teleman55]

Plus you got SED out of St. Petersburg, Russia. They make a nice 6L6GC. Then there are Chinese tubes...some are junk but some are good. I've had a Groove Tube 12AX7C and a TAD 6L6WGC that were both pretty good Chinese tubes.
+1 for JJ.

[VacuumVoodoo]

Since Clinton bombed the Ei factory, they haven't been able to reliably manufacture anything there, and Western Electric has been manufacturing new 300B's for many years now. Hopefully, they can transport the tooling back here and start making 12AX7's and the like. It'd be nice to buy some USA stuff again.

Oh, and I think Groove Tubes is assembling the 6L6's in California, but the innards are made overseas.

rooster.

EI factory was never bombed. From their website:

" During the war and UN embargo against Yugoslavia (1992.-2000.) the factory has been passed trough a very difficult period. However, in spite of rumors spreaded over, hereby we claim that we are not destroyed in the NATO bombing during the war in 1999."

EI was on other hand "destroyed" by incompetent post war management. At the height of their prosperity they had production capability in excess of 10 million tubes/year. All technology and tooling was licensed from Telefunken and Philips.
I don't think WE acquired EI with intent to move the factory to US as it would not be economically smart. Modernization in situ plus retraining (or replacement) of management and workers is what's needed.

[rooster]

EI factory was never bombed. From their website:

" During the war and UN embargo against Yugoslavia (1992.-2000.) the factory has been passed trough a very difficult period. However, in spite of rumors spreaded over, hereby we claim that we are not destroyed in the NATO bombing during the war in 1999."

EI was on other hand "destroyed" by incompetent post war management. At the height of their prosperity they had production capability in excess of 10 million tubes/year. All technology and tooling was licensed from Telefunken and Philips.
I don't think WE acquired EI with intent to move the factory to US as it would not be economically smart. Modernization in situ plus retraining (or replacement) of management and workers is what's needed.

I stand corrected, and will edit out Mr. Clinton from my post. Just to clarify, I'm not making a value judgement about whether he did, IMO, the right/wrong thing. While I don't care for the guy much, I don't want to assign anything like that to him that he didn't do. Maybe it was a domino effect thing, where some of their local suppliers for chemicals, metals, lubricants, etc., were damaged making it more difficult to run the factory. Or, maybe some of their key people left the region during the upheaval. All I know is that if you had an Ei 12AX7 that wasn't microphonic (not too frequent, but it happened), they were very nice sounding tubes, especially in Fenders.

If WE can straighten the management out, that would be great. It'll always be nice to have the extra competition, as well as bringing industry to an area that needs it.

rooster.

[Doug's Tubes]

JJ is an independent company in Slovakia, and they make their own stuff. I happen to like it a LOT, for new stuff anyway, although some disagree. Western Electric just acquired all of EI's tooling/manufacturing. For the last couple years, they haven't been able to reliably manufacture anything there, and Western Electric has been manufacturing new 300B's for many years now. Hopefully, they can transport the tooling back here and start making 12AX7's and the like. It'd be nice to buy some USA stuff again.

Oh, and I think Groove Tubes is assembling the 6L6's in California, but the innards are made overseas.

rooster.

WE acquired Ei over a year and a half ago, or thought they did. I spoke with Charles Whitner last week about that and they are presently involved in a legal dispute(good luck with those Serbian courts). They presently dont have access to the Ei tooling or machinery and it doesnt look like they will have anytime soon, so dont hold your breath on seeing any WE era Ei tubes for the near future.

[Blue Strat]

WE acquired Ei over a year and a half ago, or thought they did. I spoke with Charles Whitner last week about that and they are presently involved in a legal dispute(good luck with those Serbian courts). They presently dont have access to the Ei tooling or machinery and it doesnt look like they will have anytime soon, so dont hold your breath on seeing any WE era Ei tubes for the near future.

Ugh! That's a revolting development!:eek:

[VacuumVoodoo]

WE acquired Ei over a year and a half ago, or thought they did. I spoke with Charles Whitner last week about that and they are presently involved in a legal dispute(good luck with those Serbian courts). They presently dont have access to the Ei tooling or machinery and it doesnt look like they will have anytime soon, so dont hold your breath on seeing any WE era Ei tubes for the near future.

In the Balkans you don't talk to their lawyers but to the lawyers wallets. It usually simplifies matters. Otherwise known as bakshish, kick back, etc. A very old custom in these areas.

[Groovey Records]

I say Clinton should bomb those commies uh capatilist pigs uh lawyers uh...New Emerging Democracies

Nevermind I am so confused why can't we just get along !

Let Love Rule
Groovey Records

Listening to Herbie Mann-Push Push w/ Duane Allman
on Vinyl of course

[Fuchsaudio]

you can't make sense. I wrote about this in another post just yesterday where someone asked if EH tubes were junk. I wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~

"Junk" might be too strong. That said:

My problem with New Sensor tubes is that "you don't know what's what" or "who's making what"....

I suppose you need to believe that everything is coming out of the Reflektor plant, because MM owns it, so it begs the question: what differentiates a particular EH tube from a "Sovtek" tube of the same designation? Or, now that he's bought the naming rights Tung-Sol, Mullard, Svetlana....what's what?

Moreover, are these even "6L6's" or "5AR4's", etc.? Or are they just the "closest, passable, russian tube" that would seem to work in the application?

I'm not saying "YES". I'm saying "I don't have a clue!" NS's marketing strategy seems to be founded on "trust us".

Confusing is putting it mildly.

I buy JJ tubes. If it says JJ on the box, I know who made it, and I know they're striving to make their tubes to spec.

Try to ask NS for a spec sheet, or tech support on a tube....just as frustrating.

[Rod]

Mikes different brands of tubes have always been quite a mystery, and some of them have been pure crap...Some of them have also been very good...I personally like his power tubes better than his preamp tubes, although the new Tung Sol 6SL7's are real good...

[RonnyLee]

But what does it really matter? We know they're all made in Russia and marketed by New Sensor, right? We know that they're cheap new production tubes so we can't expect NOS longevity or quality. We're not going to blindly assume that anything labeled Tung Sol is good (they're not) or that everything labeled Electro Harmonix (or ANY of the other NS brand names) is bad (they're not), so we have to evaluate each item on it's own merits.

I took a chance, based on the hype, and put all new Tung Sols in my Rivera. I wanted to find out first hand.
The amp sounds amazing.
OTOH, I had put all JAN Philips (5 each), in both my Bedrocks, and they also sound amazing.
To my ears, the Tung Sols seem to be very good, so far. With about 14 4-5 hour gigs on them, they're
doing great. I wonder if they came closer to the original than we think? But, I'm not a tech. 2 cents:messedup

[RonnyLee]

Are you saying all the tube buying public is equally informed? From teenagers to old hacks like me?

Look around at some of the posts on the net about these tubes. I get tickled when folks compare the NS Mullard EL34 to the sound of a Mullard. Sounds just like one. :crazyguy


Like I said before if they come out with 97 different versions of tubes its fine with me. My fear is later down the road our choices will be limitted because of this. I hope it all goes swell and we have many choices to eternity and beyond.

So...the general concensus is that the new replicas are what?
Not the same construction? Not the same materials?
In a side by side comparison, what would be the actual differences in these two aspects?
If there are none, then what "magic mojo" are they leaving out of the replicas- And -Why?
Why can't they go ahead and include that elusive magic ingredient??
Or were the tubes of yore just built when there was something special in the air? Something long gone..?
Just trying to understand the seemingly impossible task of copying a tube.
Thanks :JAM

[Chrome Dinette]

So...the general concensus is that the new replicas are what?
Not the same construction? Not the same materials?
In a side by side comparison, what would be the actual differences in these two aspects?
If there are none, then what "magic mojo" are they leaving out of the replicas- And -Why?
Why can't they go ahead and include that elusive magic ingredient??
Or were the tubes of yore just built when there was something special in the air? Something long gone..?
Just trying to understand the seemingly impossible task of copying a tube.
Thanks :JAM



Two factors that I have heard are a big issue are the purity of the materials used for the plate and cathode, and the hardness of the vacuum. The former requires diligence in sourcing the materials, the latter requires time, i.e. you have to pump the tube out longer for a harder vacuum.

[Blue Strat]

So...the general concensus is that the new replicas are what?
Not the same construction? Not the same materials?
In a side by side comparison, what would be the actual differences in these two aspects?
If there are none, then what "magic mojo" are they leaving out of the replicas- And -Why?
Why can't they go ahead and include that elusive magic ingredient??
Or were the tubes of yore just built when there was something special in the air? Something long gone..?
Just trying to understand the seemingly impossible task of copying a tube.
Thanks :JAM

First, they don't even look alike. Compare the plates.

The materials in all new production tubes are inferior. The steel industry has undergone major changes in the last 40 years and the cost of QUALITY steel is way up.

I always go back to this. If you look at 1960's tube prices and factor in inflation only (another BIG factor is "economies of scale", the cost advantage of making large quantities. This existed in the '60s but not today) a US made 12AX7 would be around $40 today. You can't make and sell a $40 item for $15. It's simply not possible.