Love the plain wrap bridge, but...

[CitizenCain]

I'm a big believer in the "less is more" approach to wrap bridges. I think one of the things that gives them their defining tone is the total lack of moving parts. I've got four guitars with a plain wrap bridge, and one with a Schaller 455. Give me a plain bar any day!

However, I seem to have a problem that recurs on my wrap guitars. The high E string likes to go "sitar" on me a few days after being changed. You'll know what that is if you've ever had that problem. An irritating buzz that makes the string sound all pingy and lose a lot of its body and tone.

I believe I've traced it down to a lack of break angle on most wrap bridge tops. They seem to have a very rounded top and the string can easily vibrate next to where it breaks over the top of the bridge. I've experienced this on a stock Gibson non-aluminum bridge ('99 Oxblood LP), Gotoh aluminum and Faber aluminum.

My SG Jr has a lighting bar bridge, no problem with that guitar, as well as a cheap GFS bridge on a Epi LP Jr that has a lightening bar with notches cast into it. I've seen pics of the Pigtail bridge and it has a nicely defined ridge across the top of the bridge. I think that is probably the ultimate. I've heard that Tonepros has something called the Invisi-Fulcrum or something like that. Is it essentially the same thing as the Pigtail, a nice "bump" across the top?

Long way around to get to my questions...does anyone else have that sitaring problem? If so, is it with a Pigtail bridge? I'm this close to buying one to find out, but the cost and tales of long waits make me ask for firsthand experiences before going that route. Is the Tonepros bridge similar? Anyone having a sitar problem using one of those bridges?

Thanks for any info!!!

[ultra]

My Pigtail wrapover is very cool with no sitar effect at all (on my 2003 Oxblood)

But check out some new wrapovers, two of which are intonated correctly, here

http://www.cvguitars.com/parts/index.html

ultra

[ultra]

CC,

I didn't notice that you had tried Faber. Sorry. I think the Faber compensated would be good for the SGjnr . I'm waiting to try one on my Jnr when it comes back from the shop.

Probably Pigtail would be fine and i don't think there will be a problem with supply.

[CitizenCain]

Yep, I tried the Faber intonated wrap bridge, the first design not the new one. I thought it was going to address this issue, but if you look closely at this pic where it's mounted on the guitar, http://www.cvguitars.com/images/TPWC-2-lg.jpg, you can see that the high E string actually breaks over the top of the bridge before it hits the cutaway part. You can see a little air under the string after it leaves the bridge. Same with the D string. The intonation cuts serve no purpose here towards either intonation or providing a clean release point for the string.

See how the G string leaves the bridge right at the edge of the intonation cut? That's what I was looking for for all the strings. That would provide a good clean break for the string, no buzzing possible. I gave that feedback to the guy I emailed with from CV Guitars. I suggested simply moving the machining program towards the back of the bridge a couple of mm so all the intonation ledges occurred prior to the top of the hump. He said he'd pass that feedback along to Faber, but I doubt it happened.

[walterw]

wow, you're right! that's lame! what about adding the tonepros locking studs, so that the bridge isn't pulled out of parallel by the strings?

also, what about: http://www.allparts.com/store/tailpieces-stop-tailpieces-tp-3403-010,Product.asp

[Rosewood]

I don't know anything about this company but this looks like machining an existing bridge rather than casting or machining an entirely new contour. They need to start with a ramp shaped bridge blank, high point being on the front edge, then machine the cutaways.

[57special]

I've used, and still use, Pigtail and Gotoh (when on a budget) wrap bridges. The Pigtail has a sharper ridge, but the Gotoh's isn't bad. I've found the culprit in some of the 'sitar" sounds to be the return wrapping on the string. Some batches have the string returning further back from the ball end, which causes the string to sit up, reducing the string angle.
Anyway the Pigtail is very expensive, but very good.

[mockoman]

CitizenCain,yup,I've been there.
The stock wrap TP on my Historic LP Special not only 'sitared", but the intonation sucked,as well.
I bought the Pigtail (the plain wraparound,not the one with adjustable saddles),and it cured both. There is a much more peaked hump,and the intonation is excellent.
And,it sounds like a wraptail,which brings me to...

I then bought the individually adjustable saddle Pigtail. It didn't really improve the intonation (I had to turn the saddle for the g string around),plus,it no longer had the wraparound tone(which on my guitar is like having a compressor on,the notes expand after the attack).

I've also tried locking studs,(which seem to be a solution looking for a problem-does any LP Jr/Special lack sustain?),and they have the same effect-no longer has that wraptail compression/expansion of the note.

[mockoman]

"They need to start with a ramp shaped bridge blank, high point being on the front edge, then machine the cutaways"

Exactly.

"Anyway the Pigtail is very expensive, but very good."

And it's more expensive than their adjustable saddle model,which seems backwards.

[mockoman]

I've tried the Faber,too. The G string isn't machined back far enough.
To get it to intonate,I had to adjust the entire unit back so far,all the other strings were off.

[CitizenCain]

Ah, at least I'm not alone :D

My Gotoh wrap is really bad in this regard, maybe they've changed the design or something? Mine's about 2-3 years old.

As for the string wraps, I run the string through an extra ball end so it pulls the string a little farther back, no problem with bending the string wraps over the bridge at all!

Sounds like the Pigtail is the way to go. I might as well put my order in, just hope I don't run into some of the wait problems I've read about.

You guys rule!

[mockoman]

I ordered mine direct from Pigtail,and it was only about 2 weeks.

Good luck.I'ved tried a lot of stuff,and always put the Pigtail back in. I am DONE!

[57special]

Ah, at least I'm not alone :D

My Gotoh wrap is really bad in this regard, maybe they've changed the design or something? Mine's about 2-3 years old.

As for the string wraps, I run the string through an extra ball end so it pulls the string a little farther back, no problem with bending the string wraps over the bridge at all!

Sounds like the Pigtail is the way to go. I might as well put my order in, just hope I don't run into some of the wait problems I've read about.

You guys rule!

Yeah, i know about the extra ball end trick, but i hate doing it.
Don't worry if Steve at Pigtail takes a long time. He won't rip you off.

[mkolesa@mac.com]

+1 for the pigtail. it intonates much better than the stock gibby vos and the sustain is amazing when using the pigtail steel studs. i have to add though that it seems like not all strings like to be used with a wrap tailpiece... The first set I tried with the pigtail were some Gibsons and all the wound strings were muted. I changed over to D-Addarios and everything was fine. With all due respect to the other posters, it's not really that easy to design a stop tailpiece with built-in intonation... You have to realize that the tailpiece curves from e to E, to follow the radius of the fretboard, as well as curving from front to back where the break occurs... Very hard to get a shape that would do all that and at the end of the day it's not going to look like a vintage piece anymore because there would be a different ramp for each string. The best bet would be for someone (Pigtail?) to make one of these styles in a lightweight version (hint, hint!):
http://www.allparts.com/store/tailpieces-stop-tailpieces-tp-0401-001,Product.asp

[Jim Jones]

I had the sitar problem with the stock wraparound on my 2006 LP Special, too. I had a Wilkinson on there for awhile which intonates well (adjustable B/G ridge), but it's pretty heavy in comparison to the stock aluminum jobbie and I really became found of the ring of the original.

I just received a Faber on Friday and after reading your post thought "Oh shit!" :), but mine must be a newer one. Mine is intonating really well, it's nice and light and the High E is ringing clear as a bell. Here's a not-so-great pic.


http://members.shaw.ca/house-of-jim/Images/Guitars/LP%20Special/Faber-tailpiece.jpg

Jim

P.S. that said, I've never heard a complaint about the Pigtail so if you're looking for "authentic" that seems to be the best way to go.

[CitizenCain]

I'm not too worried about "authentic" or anything, I just want a nice clean ringing string :D Maybe Faber did alter their machining? I didn't have any issues with intonation, it was the sitaring problem that I was disappointed with. How long have you had the Faber on there and what kind of strings are you using?

It seems on mine that I can put new strings on and they're good for a couple of days, then the high E starts to zing on me. I use D'Adarrio most of the time, either the 10-46 or 11-49 XL sets. I wanted to try out Fender Bullets because I read once that the bullet end fits in the string hole perfectly and results in no wrapped portion of the string at all. I thought that was kind of neat.

[Jim Jones]

I use the Gibson vintage nickel jobbies, 10-46. I've had a set on since Friday and the High E is still ringing nicely. I'll post back in a few days with an update if you like.

Jim

[RockStarNick]

These bridges never made any sense to me... they just seem way outdated and primitive.

They always seemed like gibson needed a bridge, so they took leftover stop tails, put in two screws by the mounting posts, and slapped it on a guitar.

the "lightning" combo wraparound is an improvement. a modern intonated one is even better.

[Jim Jones]

Well these existed before Gibson used a stoptail so your chronology is a little off there. :)

Of course they're primitive - that's kind of the point. Once you add the moving parts in a Badass style retofit you lose everything that makes a wraptail "magic".

Jim

[CitizenCain]

Arriba on the magic, Jim! Less moving pieces = more moving tone :D

And it was the other way 'round, Nick. Gibson had a bunch of wrap bridge left over so they moved them back farther and used them to anchor the strings for the tune-o-matic.

[Dana Olsen]

Arriba on the magic, Jim! Less moving pieces = more moving tone :D

And it was the other way 'round, Nick. Gibson had a bunch of wrap bridge left over so they moved them back farther and used them to anchor the strings for the tune-o-matic.That's correct, CC - the stop bar preceeded the stud tailpiece, in late '53. The Tuneamatic started in what, '56?

7 years ago I bought a modded '60 LP Junior, modded for a lefty, so it had a Badass bridge on it. Sounded OK, but when I replaced the Badass with the close to stock Tonepros stopbar, the difference was like night and day. All of a sudden it didn't just sound like a LP Junior, it BECAME a LP Junior.

If a person wants that classic LP Junior sound, my strongly held opinion is that anything besides some version of a stopbar moves you away from classic LP Junior tone. This is true of the '60 double cut Jr I mentioned above, as well as my '56 Junior (all orig) and '56 TV Special (all orig.). This is due both to the weight and the moving parts issue - moving parts in the bridge lead one further away from classic LP Junior tone. An intonateable bridge gains in intonate-ability w/o altering string guges, but it loses in tone, IMHO.

My probably 3 or 4 cents worth, Dana O.

[CitizenCain]

Yup, I'm convinced the magic in these is their simplicity. I had a Schaller 455 on one of my Les Pauls for a while and it completely lost the twangy rawness of the simple wrap. I put it on a Partscaster Tele-Gib hybrid thing and it's good on there. It won't go back on a Gibson style guitar though. In fact, I love the wrap so much that I converted my Mahogany LP Studio into a wrap guitar :D

http://www.visi.com/~sstolle/gfs_studio.jpg

[operanonverba]

I had a Tokai special a while back with an afermarket Gotoh locking wraparound. I could never get it to intonate right no matter how I adjusted it. I also got the sitar thing as well. It could have just been the guitar though. I've got the stock wrap bridge on a SG Jr. and it has the ridges on top. Spot on intonation and I think because of the bridge construction, the guitar just vibrates with sustain.

[CitizenCain]

Well, I scored a Pigtail and some Tonepros studs from a fellow TGPer for $80 :D

operanonverba, that's the magic of the wrap if you ask me. There's no moving parts to absord any vibrations from being transfered to the guitar's body. I've got a SG Jr with the lightening bar wrap and it plays in tune just fine and has the mojo!

[RockStarNick]

See, this is why TGP rules. I just learned something!!! :AOK

Ya learn something new everyday...

[Jim Jones]

Update:

Day 7 with the Faber installed and the High E is still ringing nice and clearly with no Ravi Shankar effects. :)

Jim

[CitizenCain]

Glad to hear it, Jim! Looks like you found a winning combo.

My Pigtail should be here in a few days. It got mailed out today. Hoping I get similar results :D

Jim, I was just checking my Faber against the photo you supplied of yours. It does look like they may have machined the cutaways farther back now. If you look closely at your E string, can you see and air under it where it leaves the bridge, where part of the bridge continues to curve under and away from the string before the string hits the edge of the cutback?

[Caddie]

We got a wraparound bridge shootout in my little guitar corral. The platform is the same, the various bridges are all on Hamer Studios.
The bridges are
The Schaller with just one moveable saddle for the G & B strings.
The Pigtail intonateable with locking studs.
The TonePros with locking studs.

The TonePros & Pigtails are very nice. A weee bit pricey but easy to setup.
The Schaller is a pain to adjust and get the intonation dialed in. But IMHO, the Schaller sounds best of them all once its dialed in. Its hard to express it but the guitar simply sounds & feels a touch more solid.

just my $0.02

[Jim Jones]

Glad to hear it, Jim! Looks like you found a winning combo.

My Pigtail should be here in a few days. It got mailed out today. Hoping I get similar results :D

Jim, I was just checking my Faber against the photo you supplied of yours. It does look like they may have machined the cutaways farther back now. If you look closely at your E string, can you see and air under it where it leaves the bridge, where part of the bridge continues to curve under and away from the string before the string hits the edge of the cutback?

They must've machined the ridge for the E back further than yours - no daylight between the string and the break point.

Jim

[CitizenCain]

Cool! Might have to check out the Faber again.

I got my Pigtail and Tonepros studs today that I scored from the Emporium here. They'll go on my Les Paul Studio conversion at the next string change :D

[Jim Jones]

Cool! I'd like to hear your impressions on the Pigtail when you get it swapped!

Jim

[CitizenCain]

Did the swap over today. My...oh...my. I finally have an aluminum wrap bridge where the strings don't buzz. And man, is it worth it! I just got done playing this thing for about an hour and a half and it has never sounded this good.

You can hear every nuance of the strings, every characteristic of the string's sound comes through loud and clear. It's uncanny, and a little hard to describe, but the guitar seems almost alive with its own voice. And I didn't even have any cocktails!

I actually didn't wait for a string change because the strings I had on there are only about 2 weeks old. On a home-played guitar, that's not too old. So I just swapped the strings, D'Addario 10-46 set, over to the new bridge. Nice! They tuned right up and stabilized almost immediately. I set the action and intonation. The guitar intonates with the D and the high E slightly flat, but all other strings right on using my little Casio tuner. I'm sure they're all off if I put it on the strobe, but you can't hear any issues even with playing chords up in the 10-12 fret range mixed with open strings. Sounds just fine.

Happy as a clam, that's me right now :D

[mockoman]

That is cool,I knew the Pigtail would work for ya!

Where did you get that pickguard for your LP? Nice.

[CitizenCain]

Got it from a eBay store. It came from Taiwan, I got it for $10 and it cost $13 to mail it here :D

[Dana Olsen]

Hey CC -

Congratulations - feels great to be satisfied, eh? To my ears the Pigtail wrap bridge is the end of the world - it makes a LP Junior sounds just like they're supposed to!

Congrats again, it's good to be thrilled with your guitar, Dana O.