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Drkorey
03-05-2008, 10:47 PM
Anyone ever had any probs. with a Kahler with Floyd type locking nut? I owned a guitar briefly with one and thought it did just as well as the floyds I've got. I'm looking at a new guit with one, and besides keeping the rollers well oiled any other issues to be concerned with?

Cymbaline
03-05-2008, 11:04 PM
I used to have one, I had sustain problems with the rollers. I'd play a note, and it would just die after a few seconds. I nearly wore the Kahler completely out though, that's probably part of it.

walterw
03-05-2008, 11:35 PM
there's a reason kahler lost the locking trem wars of the '80s to floyd rose. they robbed attack and sustain from the guitar, and unless they were constantly adjusted and lubed, they wouldn't even return to perfect pitch, the whole point of butchering your guitar for a locking trem in the first place!

when kahler came out with this,
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj50/walterw2/vib7.jpg
it was their admission of defeat. (a pity, because the kahler steeler was one of the best floyds around.)

Unburst
03-05-2008, 11:38 PM
Kahler are the worst sounding of the trem bridges, closely followed by the Steinberger.

KCWM
03-06-2008, 01:51 AM
I currently have a japanese fender strat with an original floyd rose bridge. I used to own a japanese fender double fat strat with a kahler bridge...spyder I think, or something close to it.

I had nothing but issues with the Kahler. Granted, the strings were easier to change, but it only took the first set to get pretty quick at the Floyd. It does take longer than a guitar with a regular bridge. That's why I'm getting rid of it.

I'd take a floyd rose over a kahler any day based on that one experience. A little closeminded, but you go with what works for you.

Cymbaline
03-06-2008, 03:11 AM
The Kahler Spyder is a great trem. I have a '87 MIJ Strat with one and it works flawlessly, always comes back in perfect tune even after I dump it all the way until the strings flop. The only issue I have with it is it doesn't do that "flutter" effect very well when you flick the bar.

KenRothman
03-06-2008, 09:43 AM
sorry for the threadcrap, but i'm just imagining what this forum would be like if it had existed when i started playing, back in '86/87... this would have been a common topic!

Halowords
03-06-2008, 02:48 PM
Kahler are the worst sounding of the trem bridges, closely followed by the Steinberger.

I am not so sure on that. There are some pro's that use them (i.e. Jerry Cantrell, Kerry King from Slayer [I believe that's his name, the one who's bald now], Les Claypool, a few others). A lot of guitarists on the amateur level prefer them. I have heard there are differences in models; some are better than others. Going from memory, some have also reported the steel ones sound better than the brass, or vice versa, and that sustain issues may be a result of one or the other (brass or steel) or not having the rollers oiled.

I would not discount Kahler trems as a general rule. There are a lot of people who love them as much as, or more than, Floyd Rose tremolos.

-Cheers

peedenmark7
03-06-2008, 03:14 PM
the kahler lock nut does not work.
too many binding points.

think about it and read before you argue....

first you have the distance between the actual nut and the locknut which is a friction point , as well as the fact that most manufacturers back in the day did not take the time to properly shim up the nut to proper height , so you also have an angle pinch point as well...
further.... kahler did not make different spacing locknuts as did floyd...

so you put a kahler locknut which is designed for a 1 5/8ths nut width on a guitar with 1 11/16ths or wider and you now have the high and low E strings rubbing on the outer most sides of the locknut , not to mention you've created a side to side binding point in the actual nut by now spreading the string wider in such a short distance between the nut and locknut.

now lets get to the bridge . the bridge also has binding points...
the first being the roller saddles ...the strings eventually wear a comfort spot into the brass rollers as well as the stainless ones.
next you have the distance from the roller to the string claw another binding point.
lastly you have the string claw the biggest defect in a locking system... the ball end of the string is allowed to move freely since it is not clamped... the ball does rotate and in turn the guitar will go out of tune.




so there are far too many critical binding points which in my opinion is a complete design flaw...
there was at one point a special kahler string where the ball end was soldered to prevent stretching...

to this day I still solder all my guitars strings that arent on a double locking trem set up.
dont laugh it works.

NOW.... the kahler "zero fret" locknut was a pretty cool idea...
it was basically a floyd style locknut, BUT it had a string retainer built in so a behind the nut retainer wasnt necessary...
that nut works and works well !

only drawback was it was made of cheap sh!T pot metal like a hot wheel...
so... you over tighten and the clamping block holes strip out real fast.


there is a reason kahler went out of business once... why someone would have brought that line back from the grave is beyond me as they will eventually fail again.

there is only one locking trem that works...and thats a floyd...

HOWEVER, I do understand how some folks like the free float and spongy feel of a kahler and the easy intonation process...

I dont... but thats what makes the world go round.

if a kahler is equipped with the heavier springs and the zero fret locknut I have no problem using one ... BUT I am a floyd guy if a locking trem is in order.

lbenf
03-06-2008, 03:30 PM
I used to have one, I had sustain problems with the rollers. I'd play a note, and it would just die after a few seconds. I nearly wore the Kahler completely out though, that's probably part of it.


Exactly my experience as well with a Kahler on an old Hamer Special that I sold.

Love my FR Speedloader!!

Dendog
03-06-2008, 03:53 PM
Floyd. Superior design. For a locking system, I reallly don't see how you could argue against that.

JUSTJOB
03-06-2008, 03:59 PM
I definately prefer the Floyd as well. There is nothing like a properly set up Floyd for tuning stability. A very well thought out and designed trem.
Best Regards!

deoreo
03-06-2008, 04:08 PM
Kahler are the worst sounding of the trem bridges, closely followed by the Steinberger.

Ok, I love double locking floyd type set-ups (to me the Ibanez edge is the best.)

However, a floyd type cannot do one thing - that is transpose all of the strings to a different pitch, ie: a chord will stay in tune as you use the trem. Only the Steinberger transtrem can do this.

The only other designs that could potentially do this are the Washburn Wonderbar, and Kahler.

See these clips to hear the transposing feature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-rjLQM4mMg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOZ1fuXJub8

Mikey2201
03-07-2008, 05:58 AM
WOW - look at all the kahler bashing. I have had 4 Kahlers (I still have 3) and 3 original floyds. I would never trade my kahlers. I don't know about sustain problems becuase I never had any. My kahler equipped guitar will rival my LP for sustain. Floyds suck sustain and tone. The Floyd rose locking nut is superior to kahlers behind the nut clamp I agree. But the unit itself is excellent I dive bomb and regularly abuse it and it come right back to pitch. They are different and must be handled differently.

It is far more adjustable then the floyd and does not rob the tone that the floyd does. Kahlers are bolted right to the guitar, where look at all the wood lost to rout a floyd. I sold my floyd equipped guitars. I jumped for joy when kahler came back.

Dendog
03-07-2008, 06:21 AM
WOW - look at all the kahler bashing. I have had 4 Kahlers (I still have 3) and 3 original floyds. I would never trade my kahlers. I don't know about sustain problems becuase I never had any. My kahler equipped guitar will rival my LP for sustain. Floyds suck sustain and tone. The Floyd rose locking nut is superior to kahlers behind the nut clamp I agree. But the unit itself is excellent I dive bomb and regularly abuse it and it come right back to pitch. They are different and must be handled differently.

It is far more adjustable then the floyd and does not rob the tone that the floyd does. Kahlers are bolted right to the guitar, where look at all the wood lost to rout a floyd. I sold my floyd equipped guitars. I jumped for joy when kahler came back.
If you're concerned about playing in tune, Floyd wins hands down. It isn't personal.

acwild
03-07-2008, 08:06 AM
I had two Kahlers. When adjusted right, I had no tuning or sustain issues. The workmanship on those things were top-notch. What I didn't like was the feel. Way too spongy. All I kept thinking about was retrofitting my two Kahler guitars with Floyds. Ultimately I sold them instead.
Once set up, I think it's just a matter of personal preference.

carbz
03-07-2008, 09:14 AM
The one thing no one has mentioned is the feel. Though I like Floyd Rose system in general the tension is to tight for my taste. I like a looser feel for more subtle use which the Kahler offers. My favorite trem though is the Hipshot. Though it is not a locking system it feels great, mounts very flush to the body and actually stays in tune pretty dam good if set up right.

teddy boy
03-07-2008, 10:09 AM
Never heard of Kahler but Flyod is great. Especially Wish You Were Here!







Hah!

Mikey2201
03-07-2008, 02:10 PM
Dendog wrote: If you're concerned about playing in tune, Floyd wins hands down. It isn't personal.Today 04:58 AM

I did not mean to imply it was personal.

I have NEVER have been concerned about playing in tune w/ kahler. Floyd does not win hands down. Kahler does imho.

When a kahler is properly set up ( which is easy) you can beat the hell out of it and it will always be in tune. Now speaking from experience if the springs are starting to go you will have tuning problems but even under heavy abuse they last for a very long time. My first kahler was on a 1983 BC Rich which I bought used and the srpings were shot, but once the springs were replaced( which only took a few minutes) it was perfect.

Kahlers have much better tone, WAY more funtionality and are very well built. Again IMHO some people prefer Floyds and that is why they make strawberry, rocky road and chocolate, everyone likes something different.

jetydosa
03-07-2008, 02:45 PM
You guys need to ditch both your Kahlers AND Floyds for the true best...Washburn WONDERBAR!!! Yeah! ;-)

ScottB
03-07-2008, 04:09 PM
I have the Kahler that drops into a standard Strat cavity with no mod (except changing out the posts).

It's in my ESP MVI and it's been in there for over 20 years. I don't really play that guitar anymore, but it was my main guitar for at least 10 years. I put a lot of hours and poured a lot of sweat all over that thing and it never gave me any problems at all. I could shwing that whammy bar all day long and the only time it would go out is if a broke a string.

I don't know why that particular design never caught hold.

billywade
03-07-2008, 06:44 PM
I've owned some Kahler equipped guitars and I had no problem with sustain or tuning. Most SD 80's Charvel's were Kahler equipped and I had a thing for them for a while. I think it is just understanding that the Kahler is a different system than the FR, requires different maintenance and has a different feel. I still prefer the Floyd Rose though and the 1st Gen Edge is my all time favorite.

I think suggesting that the Kahler disappeared solely because the Floyd was superior is somewhat misleading. It is my understanding that FR had (may still have) the patent on the double locking trem so anyone using a double locker (even if a different design) had to pay licensing fees. Meaning that Mr. Rose would basically get a piece of your business for being the originator and patent holder. This cut into profits and there was a lot less interest in developing better trems as a result. I have no doubt that Kahler, given more time, could have fine tuned their designs (the nut issue for example).

Stinky Kitty
03-08-2008, 04:47 PM
Nothing wrong with properly set up Kahlers. I've been using 'em for two decades with no nagging tuning issues. Their "spongy" feel is worlds better than the typical stiff Floyd and if you match the saddles on the Kahler with your guitar's natural resonance, the tone result often is fantastic. I've found over the years that Floyds are wonderful at keeping strings in tune but they have inferior feel to the Kahler Pro, are more difficult with palm mutes and generally (in nearly every case I've tried), take so much out of the guitar's natural tone they're no longer worth the hassle.

I've sold every single one of my Floyd guitars and will never buy another. If I must have a bar, it's either Kahler or traditional non-locking tremolos for me these days.


I think the reason why Kahler decided to start things up again was due in no small part to the many players like me who feel exactly the way I do about Floyds.

Roodyrocker
03-09-2008, 04:43 PM
I have guitars with Floyds, Kahler Pros, and string thrus. The Kahlers do not rob tone and mine stay in tune just as good as any Floyds. My first Kahler Pro equipped guitar from the 80's is still with me today and still ahs the same Kahler Pro on it. It works just fine! The behind the nut style lock on the Kahler has been repeatedly quoted as binding and I suppose theoretically it should however, in the real world this has translated to absolutely nothing on my guitars. IOW, it still works anyway. If I recall, the major problem with the Kahler Pro is that it was/is much more expensive than an OFR.
The Kahler Pro also has some advantages over a Floyd. On a dark stage you don't loose those little Floyd blocks when changing strings. It also doesn't go sharp when resting your palm on it like a Floyd does nor do the open strings go flat when bending aother string. I'm not bashing the Floyd as I like that trem too but the Kahler deserves some credit and I've had one on my Strat for over 20 years now.

devilrob1979
03-09-2008, 07:13 PM
You can also easily match the radius of your bridge with that of your neck with a Kahler without any mods. Floyds require shimming under the saddles to acheive this. I love Kahler.

atquinn
03-09-2008, 08:00 PM
It also doesn't go sharp when resting your palm on it like a Floyd does nor do the open strings go flat when bending aother string.

Never played a guitar with a Kahler (nothing against them, all my double-locking trem guitars have Floyds because those are more popular), but I don't understand how what you're saying is possible on a guitar with a floating trem?

-Austin

Roodyrocker
03-09-2008, 08:37 PM
Never played a guitar with a Kahler (nothing against them, all my double-locking trem guitars have Floyds because those are more popular), but I don't understand how what you're saying is possible on a guitar with a floating trem?

-Austin

O.K. say you are bending the high E string and at the same time letting the low E string ring open. On a Floating Floyd that low E goes flat. Its not really Low E anymore.

Mcclassic
03-09-2008, 09:17 PM
I do still have 3 guitars with the kahler from the 80's I played a lot with them and I love the kahler feel, no problems with tunning or sustain. I do like the Floyds but personally I preffer the kahlers.

JSeth
03-10-2008, 12:07 AM
I had a Kahler installed in my Gibson in the early 80's - it's still there! Only problems I've had are some strings breaking over a saddle piece; that was a brief disruption about 10 yrs ago, easily solved. I had checked out Rose's, but ended up feeling the Kahler was more versatile, would bend up and down further ( mostly "up" vs the Rose). It's the only bridge I've had on this Gibson that kept the guitar in tune reasonably well...
Oh, my Gibson? An ES-345 that I actually had the face routed to accept the Kahler... heresy, I know, but I was younger and had tried 1) the trapeze bridge it came with... 2) a standard post-type bridge/tailpiece arrangement ... 3) a STARZ Guitars brass bridge, brass saddles, solid brass tailpiece (more sustain than Jesus, said some of my friends...j/k!) - and the guitar just wouldn't stay in tune with any of 'em! In hindsight I should have kept the guitar stock and bought a Les Paul... sigh...
In any event, I love that Kahler on the 345 w/ the locking nut...

SvenHock
04-06-2008, 10:38 AM
Kahlers are great trems and one of my favorite playing and sounding guitar is equipped with one. The Kahler nuts however are junk.

packermann
04-06-2008, 11:01 AM
I have a Strat and Mustang equipped with Kahlers which were installed around 1977 or 1978. I have no problems with sustain or tuning and I like the feel of them. I don't forsee the need to change either tremelo and the Strat is my main player.

I am sure the Floyd is a fine unit too but I like being able to change strings like a conventional trem.

OOG
04-06-2008, 01:30 PM
never liked either
way to many issues

my dream trem would be a
Kalashnikov

serial
04-06-2008, 03:14 PM
[quote=packermann;3938008]I have a Strat and Mustang equipped with Kahlers which were installed around 1977 or 1978. quote]

That would be a little hard to believe-Kahlers weren't even out until late 1982 and then were impossible to get.

As for the Kahler v. Floyd thing, I prefer Kahlers. I've owned a dozen or more guitars with each and I've sold all but one of my Floyd guitars (a Hamer Firebird-I really don't play it, but it's too cool to get rid of) because they're too much hassle. The pulling sharp DOES happen on Floyds when doing two or three string bends and if you break a string, you're completely F'd. Not so with a Kahler. Stiff springs on a Kahler give it a less "spongy" feel.

As for the "tone robbing" argument, that's something that's taken on a lot more "truth" through internet hype.

I will say that it's easier to screw up a Kahler installation than a Floyd install, and a poor install can kill a guitar. There are probably more bad Kahler installs out there that helped trash the unit's rep. My #1 gig guitar has a Hamer factory-installed Kahler Pro and it's absolutely flawless. I'm never out of tune even a cent between gigs when the guitar's been sitting in the case. Never had ANY guitar out of 120 or more that I've owned that is that stable.

tonio19
04-06-2008, 07:45 PM
What about the Trem-King? Anybody actually tried one of those yet? I am wondering what the blocks are made of on those? Zinc/pot metal, Brass, steel...? I hate to butcher a guitar just to find out what it sounds like/plays like. I currently have an original Floyd on an Ibanez JS. I like how it plays, and it stays in tune pretty good when the strings settle down. My main beef is it sounds "Tinny". I am looking at some oversized brass blocks on evil-bay right now. I think I'll try one of those first, and see if it really helps the tone.

pdouds
01-17-2009, 07:41 AM
i had a kahler on my old zion guitar, and it worked perfectly, i couldn't believe how well that axe stayed in tune. it was a neck through-probably the 3rd guitar they ever built. then i bought a strat style guitar with a kahler, and it is total crap, as far as intonation goes. too bad, i really dug my 1st kahler.

Ratslap
01-17-2009, 08:30 AM
I installed a Kahler on my 79' Gibson Firebird in the early 80's during my metal years. I completely dig the Kahler. No sustain problems and it rings forever, no tuning problems. No issues what so ever. Just give it the attention it needs once in a while and all is good. That Firebird was played hard all through the 80's and 90's and into 2000. I still have the Firebird, the Kahler is still on it and I play it daily.
I tried many guitars with Floyds and didn't like the Floyd, I'm not bashing them, just didn't like them.

buddastrat
01-17-2009, 09:05 AM
Floyd pummels a Kahler any day of the week. But I'd choose a regular strat trem!

66Park
01-17-2009, 09:37 AM
For the guys who don't have sustain issues with the Kahler, how do you set them up? I've got two strat style guitars with Kahlers, and never had tuning issues with either one, but the notes just seem to lack sustain and don't ring like with a standard strat trem. Consequently, those guitars really don't get much playing time. If it's possible to resolve the issue by setting them up differently, I'd love to learn how! Thanks!

Eagle1
01-17-2009, 03:10 PM
For the guys who don't have sustain issues with the Kahler, how do you set them up? I've got two strat style guitars with Kahlers, and never had tuning issues with either one, but the notes just seem to lack sustain and don't ring like with a standard strat trem. Consequently, those guitars really don't get much playing time. If it's possible to resolve the issue by setting them up differently, I'd love to learn how! Thanks!
There is no way to make a kahler not sound like rollers period.
The Floyd Rose is just a design ,end of.

66Park
01-18-2009, 07:23 AM
There is no way to make a kahler not sound like rollers period.I understand that a Kahler will never sound just like a stock strat bridge, but is there a way to set it up so the notes sustain better?

mvd18969
01-18-2009, 07:37 AM
I have 6 or so guitars that are equipped w/ original Floyd Rose trems. Absolutely no issues w/ any of them. I've been using Floyds since the early 80s and they are hands down, far superior to the kahler. I used to play in a band w/ a guy who had a kahler equipped Jackson; his tuning issues gave me an aneurism every time it went out of tune........which was often.

Reeltarded
01-18-2009, 09:39 AM
sorry for the threadcrap, but i'm just imagining what this forum would be like if it had existed when i started playing, back in '86/87... this would have been a common topic!


And expensiveish on the postage. :jo

I have seen 10,000 Kahler shaped plugs in the tops of ugly guitars! A worthwhile modification, no matter how much it makes the guitar look better.

There are basically two workable trem rigs; The Original Fender, and The Floyd. Anything else is not going to work for me.

Reeltarded
01-18-2009, 09:43 AM
I understand that a Kahler will never sound just like a stock strat bridge, but is there a way to set it up so the notes sustain better?


Yes, see my previous post on Kahler shaped plugs.

Luke
01-18-2009, 09:50 AM
I used to have one, I had sustain problems with the rollers. I'd play a note, and it would just die after a few seconds. I nearly wore the Kahler completely out though, that's probably part of it.

How many seconds is acceptable?

Let's say the song is at 120bpm. That would mean 2 beats per second. I'll take a "few" to mean more than two, so let's say three for the sake of argument. So the sustain would last at least six beats, a measure and a half.

khingpynn
01-18-2009, 09:58 AM
I've got two Kahler origional style trems on gtrs. I have one gtr with a origional Floyd.

IMHO both are great units that differ in performance and set up. If set up right both stay in tune really well.

Both have a distintly different feel and tone and I find for me it come down to these to aspects. I wont say I like one more than the other but I find myself playing Floyds more... but then again there are way more Floyds than Kahlers floating around.

As for the Nuts... both do the job they are rewuired to do... I do like the flip top Kahler loc nut though... thats a great design.

buddastrat
01-18-2009, 10:00 AM
How many seconds is acceptable?

Let's say the song is at 120bpm. That would mean 2 beats per second. I'll take a "few" to mean more than two, so let's say three for the sake of argument. So the sustain would last at least six beats, a measure and a half.


Sustain is more than the duration of a note to most. Sustain can mean to many of us the way the guitar "sings" instantly as a note is held. It might not be a technically correct definition but that's the way it's used lots of times.

Reeltarded
01-18-2009, 10:21 AM
How many seconds is acceptable?

Let's say the song is at 120bpm. That would mean 2 beats per second. I'll take a "few" to mean more than two, so let's say three for the sake of argument. So the sustain would last at least six beats, a measure and a half.


Give up. Either the guitar is alive, or it's a hammer. There is no white line where sustain ends. I would say a good electric sustains acoustically for around 7-8 audible seconds.

Any guitar with a Kahler is a hammer, whether or not the trem is used. Tonestealer.

megadave73
06-21-2009, 02:32 PM
I think this is my first post on here...just sifting through all the varying opinions on Kahlers. Hmm...
I have an old '81 Dean V that had a Kahler on it in 1990 when I bought it.
I liked the trem and didn't have too many issues with it other than the lock nut which was crap. I got it removed and installed a nashville bridge and the original V tailpiece.
I don't recall any huge difference/improvement in tone doing this move.
A few years later I had Schaller Floyd Rose installed and THAT absolutely killed the tone of the guitar. It was a horrible decision and I retired that axe for a few years till I could fill in the rout and put the nashville back on.
Haha! the stupid mistakes we make in life!
Well, now I've begun to think about Kahlers again that perhaps this option may help solve my really big issue with the Dean which is tuning instability.
Those big V headstocks are just an issue with the strings angling sharply over the nut...I've made a million of them and nothing helps. So my idea is to go with a FR locknut to eliminate that particular issue...and a Kahler to allow for (fine) tuning. I understand Kahler has non-trem versions but I remember liking the trem's feel way back when. Hmm...I guess it's still a bit of a gamble as there seems to be so many varying opinions on the "tone-robbing" thing. If I could figure out how I would post a few pictures but needless to say she's a bit on the "ugly side" but I love her!

aleclee
06-21-2009, 03:12 PM
Count me among those who'd take a Kahler over a Floyd.

I always figured that folks who preferred the Floyd were often just more comfortable with its more Fender-like feel. The Kahler definitely feels like a different beast and whether that's better or worse is definitely open to interpretation by the person workin' the bar.

GUITARFORCE
06-21-2009, 03:14 PM
I'm a die hard Floyd Rose man.....but you know no one will ever win this argument.:horse

Eagle1
06-21-2009, 03:22 PM
There is no argument, the Floyd is a superior design on paper and in every respect.The Kahler is a compromise from start to finish and is nothing more than a modernised bigsby from a design stand point .I will go in to minute detail if anyone wants to know,but it is so completely self evident from just looking at the two side by side that it is not necessary.

1959burst
06-21-2009, 03:24 PM
floyd all the way!!!!! kahlers are tone suckers.i.m.o.

aleclee
06-21-2009, 03:39 PM
There is no argument, the Floyd is a superior design on paper and in every respect.Paper is paper but it doesn't necessarily translate to real life. Otherwise, we'd all be raving about the superiority of neck-thru guitars over bolt-on and set necks. ;)

Eagle1
06-21-2009, 03:46 PM
Paper is paper but it doesn't necessarily translate to real life. Otherwise, we'd all be raving about the superiority of neck-thru guitars over bolt-on and set necks. ;)
why?:messedup

aleclee
06-21-2009, 03:51 PM
why?:messedupIsn't your argument that the Floyd's design better maintains the string's vibration than the Kahler? If so, the same could be said of a neck-thru.

Or are you simply arguing that a Floyd's design is better at staying in tune?

Eagle1
06-21-2009, 04:00 PM
Isn't your argument that the Floyd's design better maintains the string's vibration than the Kahler? If so, the same could be said of a neck-thru.

Or are you simply arguing that a Floyd's design is better at staying in tune?
Both and more ,This is not true on paper for your neck through premise as tone is also a consideration as well as resonance and rigidity.
Start a thread on this so as not to derail this one and I'll go in to detail.

chongo
06-21-2009, 06:48 PM
there's a reason kahler lost the locking trem wars of the '80s to floyd rose. they robbed attack and sustain from the guitar, and unless they were constantly adjusted and lubed, they wouldn't even return to perfect pitch, the whole point of butchering your guitar for a locking trem in the first place!

when kahler came out with this,
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj50/walterw2/vib7.jpg
it was their admission of defeat. (a pity, because the kahler steeler was one of the best floyds around.)

Disagree, wholeheartedly. Kahler lost the battle because of internal and financial issues. Dealers and manufacturers just got disgusted with them (I think Carvin still spits on the floor whenever anyone mentions the name), but not because the trems weren't outstanding. There are stainless steel rollers for these things (I have brass on most of mine) that are oustanding (I'm just too lazy to replace them).

What I like about Kahlers:

Palm muting is a piece of cake -- you don't throw the guitar out of tune, you don't snag your hand on stuff that's sticking up and out.
You don't flat every other string when you bend one. And you don't have to increase the distance of your bend to do the same amount of bend simply because the butt-end of the Floyd is rising in the air and defeating your bend.
You don't have to dig out the back side of the guitar and put a big old piece of plastic over the hole.
You can replace strings on the Kahler without doing the tuning rhumba you do on the Floyd.
I like the old (no longer available) flip-top *behind the nut* lockers kahler made; no special "step" to be cut into the headstock/neck. Looked far slicker.

As for holding up; all but one of my Kahlers date from the late '80's and they're still going like gangbusters. I've tossed and replaced several fulcrum-type trems since then.

And finally, Floyd Rose doesn't even make the best Floyd on the market. The old thought was that an OFR was the best you could get. Now the stupid things are made in the same Korean factories as many of the Licensed versions, and some of the licensed versions are actually better quality (several pretty top-notch guitar shops have complained about having to work over OFRs to make them suitable these days).

Here's an oddity -- if you go to Wammi World (best place to buy Kahler trems these days) you'll find that you can still buy a Killer or a Spyder (the fulcrum Kahlers) from a pile of NOS.

Sure wish they'd make the old flip-lock behind-nut locks, though.

chongo
06-21-2009, 06:56 PM
floyd all the way!!!!! kahlers are tone suckers.i.m.o.

And see, I don't get this. I've got Floyds on three or four guitars and Kahlers on at least that many. Almost all of the guitars involved are neck-throughs (my personal preference) with just one a glued-neck. I hear the springs ringing in the Floyd cavities, which means that string energy is wandering down THERE instead of staying in the string, and unless you start adding big old clunky sustain blocks and heavier springs on the Floyds (which defeats their whole purpose), you can't really get rid of that.

Honestly, my personal experience with the two is that the Kahlers are far more friendly to work with than the Floyds and that there's either no difference or a slight advantage to the Kahlers in terms of tone and sustain. YMMV, Hike Your Own Hike, etc.

burner
07-18-2009, 10:49 AM
Kahler are the worst sounding of the trem bridges, closely followed by the Steinberger.
Hmm.....
I had a Gibson V with a factory Steinberger bridge and I don't remember it sounding anything but incredible!
:dunno

The Kahler Spyder is a great trem. I have a '87 MIJ Strat with one and it works flawlessly, always comes back in perfect tune even after I dump it all the way until the strings flop. The only issue I have with it is it doesn't do that "flutter" effect very well when you flick the bar.
The Spyder is a Floyd variation tho'....
I think they are easier/faster to swap strings on tho' because of the rear loaded string thru' barrels, but the posts weren't too beefy...I even snapped one off on my Vandenberg.
Not a bad setup overall though.

I am not so sure on that. There are some pro's that use them (i.e. Jerry Cantrell, Kerry King from Slayer [I believe that's his name, the one who's bald now]
Kerry King and Jeff Hanneman from Slayer BOTH use Kahlers...the newest ESP JH model comes equipped with one.:love:

Floyd. Superior design. For a locking system, I reallly don't see how you could argue against that.
I can't.
I completely agree with you on that point.
I don't have hatred for the Kahlers...owned a few...but the bottom line for me is that they are simply not balls out tough enough to take the punishment I can dish out on a trem system.
Bottom line.

I never had too many of the negative issue that some are reporting with Kahlers as far as sustain, tone etc......just too flimsy feeling for me.

asintoras
01-16-2012, 11:15 PM
Interesting... I have one guitar equipped with an OFR and just got another with a Kahler Spyder (essentially a Floyd Rose version from Kahler).

For those complaining about FR that goes flat when bending notes, or to the nightmare when a string breaks, here you have one simple and cheap solution:
Tremol-No http://tremol-no.com/ (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/allparts-tremol-no-tremolo-locking-device--pin-type/h71947000000000?src=3WWRWXGB&ZYXSEM=0)

I have one installed in my OFR and it works great! Improves sustain and tone, and I can choose between full floating, only diving and fixed bridge. And not only that: if I live it as an "only diving" mode, I can gently press my palm against the bridge and bend notes while letting open strings ring without getting flat, just as a fixed bridge.

The other advantage is that if a string breaks, you can quickly set it as a fixed bridge, put a new string on it, tune it and there you go... then you can go back to tremolo mode.

As far as the Spyder, I haven't had a chance to really play a lot, but I like it thus far. It seems very well built and I like the feel even better than my OFR.

I know the Spyder and Steeler are not really Kahler designs (they are FR versions), but I think they can compare closely and more objectively to the OFR.

muddy
01-17-2012, 12:09 AM
don't forget todd; he has a kahler on his "foamy" strat, & THAT thing sustains for DAYS! & the kahler studmount on my lp/sg wipes the floor in tuning stability vs the floyd on my kramer e.e. pro, & between the 2, ONLY the kramer has a locking nut. this sustain argument is one always had by 2 bridge & tunnel know-it-alls that just like to hear the sound of their own voices. one poster here had it right; the sustain, or lack thereof, is mainly the property of the axe itself. the kahler by all rights SHOULD have more sustain simply due to it's having MUCH more contact with the body. & it's not like the cam is floating unconnected to the whole apparatus, so that's an argument that doesn't hold water.

to be honest, with all of the supposed technical reasons, why one should be better than the other almost NEVER stacks up to the years these ears have had using & listening to both (critically) systems, & what i can tell you at this point is that there are NO absolutes. i've just heard too many examples that have debunked both opinions. that said, i know how to increase the sustain & vol of a kahler, & one day i'll figure out how to produce what i've done with my own axe (albeit, with whatever junk parts i've had at hand), but it'll need to be cast, more than likely. btw, the kahler on my lp/sg is a JOY to play, particularly if you love jeff beck...


ml

EADGBE
01-17-2012, 01:20 AM
Kahler are the worst sounding of the trem bridges, closely followed by the Steinberger.Really? A lot of pros used the Kahler and got good tone with it.

jl4224
04-02-2012, 10:29 AM
Question:

I have a strat routed for a kahler - Its looks like the 2300 model but its an old one from the 80s so its a bit more square.

I never really use the tremolo, though.

If I milled a piece of metal to replace the springs - basically making it a fixed bridge - would that improve the sustain?

Thanks!
-Jordan

jcarpenter
04-02-2012, 10:44 AM
I use locking tuners. It's better not as solid as the floyd as far as staying in tune but its managable.

Never had a problem with sustain and love the loose smooth movement of the trem. So to me it's a better choice than the floyd.

jbird
04-02-2012, 11:09 AM
I prefer the Kahlers, mine is 23 years old and still works fine! Ian Crichton still abuses one!