George L's-Buffers-Overall Weak/Dead Like Signal

[BluesHarp]

I noticed today that my tone when plugged straight in is... more toneful somehow. I guess... stronger with more of that "right here" sound. I really see why people chase boutique gear for years and end up back at a real good amp and a couple pedals. Im not ready to give up yet though...:nono

I have 11 pedals and they are all true bypass except the boss tuner at the end. I noticed months ago that it actually helped out and got rid of some small noise and also brought the treble back into some of the pedals. I guess this is buffering? Can I say that all buffering benifits are taking place "before" the tuner??? Is the boss tuner not strong enough to buff up 11 pedals and a 15 foot cable?

Whats the best thing for me to do to make sure I have the strongest and cleanest possible tone transfer? A better buffer at the end? Get rid of the george L's and upgrade? If I do, will that change the buffering of my long line of pedals? If so Lava, Vovox or Evidence al hg patch cables? Do any of these guys sell wire by the foot that would work in george L plugs?

Sorry for the onslaught of Q's...

I know how to buffer my dress shoes. :D

[chemical69]

a buffer at the beginning would probably work better. You are probably losing top end as your signal goes through the 11 true bypass pedals before the tuner.

[koa]

a buffer at the beginning would probably work better. You are probably losing top end as your signal goes through the 11 true bypass pedals before the tuner.
Yeah, I was running my tuner like that for a while and thought the same thing. My signal was kind of dead and lifeless. Then I put my tuner first and what an incredible difference. It was like night and day. I hope it works for you too.

[monk]

Maybe you should get a good buffer, like a Axess BS-2 or a Skrydstrup.
Many pro players use them.

[rickbob]

Buffer where it works for you...I don't like one at the front, I have one (BOR boost side) after my fuzz/drive pedals, then one at the end which is my VFB-2 Barge with my TU2 and delay in the loop, the Barge is a better buffer for me plus I like my DD-2 in the feedback loop sometimes. Different cables all will sound different of course.

[pgissi]

a buffer at the beginning would probably work better. You are probably losing top end as your signal goes through the 11 true bypass pedals before the tuner.



Yeah, I was running my tuner like that for a while and thought the same thing. My signal was kind of dead and lifeless. Then I put my tuner first and what an incredible difference. It was like night and day. I hope it works for you too.


This is the only place to find so many divergent opinions, one day its buffers in 1st position another day its buffer last or 1 day true bypass suck tone and another day they dont.

First lets deal with what we know from your post-

-guitar???
-15 foot cable, what type???
-11 True Bypass pedals (only 1 of 2 known conditions in your post)
-George L Patch cables (since these are the "roll your own type" this is
an unknown condition, how do we know you
rolled with skill)
-TU2 (buffering) last (the 2nd known condition)
-cable type/lenght to amp
-amp???

Out of all that we only really know 2 things and this is the part where I debunk 1 myth that True Bypass pedals (with buffering somewhere in the chain) suck tone.

TB Pedals are typically blamed for tone suck when used excluisively in long signal chains exceeding 25' or more, especially with long guitar leads

Got news for ya, unless your total signal chain length thru these pedals is over 25 feet and without buffering somewhere then you should not worry about the TB pedals sucking tone but focus on the patch cables, cords, amp and maybe the guitar instead.

TB pedals present such miniscule losses to your signal (the stomp switch contacts are heavy duty with minimal contact resistance) the test equipment required to measure this miniscule loss is only found in some top flight science labs so this is nill and IMO using all TB pedals remains a known good condition meaning, no tonal losses there, next.

Now for buffering Tuner 1st or tuner last

I recently moved mine to last because I wanted to really hear my TB OD's in their full unadulterated glory and since I only use a 12 foot quality cable and my pedal chain adds maybe another 4 feet with short, quality factory patch cables, buffering last works, my total signal chain pre buffering is under 25 feet including all TB pedals. Post buffer there is a 20' cord and thats where the buffer comes in and minimizes losses there

A few weeks ago I made extensive A/B/C comparisons,
a- buffer 1st
b- buffer last
c- straight in

b won, got the benefits of buffering but miminal pedal tone alteration

What I confirmed is that Pre-Buffering adds some top end zing and tended to homogonize my OD's where they lost their unique character, tended to sound the same and in addition tonally affected other pedal types. I determined I like buffering early on only for my high gain shred tones, seems to facilitate speed picking with that top end zing it adds but its not like I really need that into a rivera, there is plenty there. I am not missing buffering early on and now am really hearing my pedals they way they were intended to sound like.


You need buffering 1st when your guitar lead pre pedals is over 25 feet, the theoretical limit for a low level unbalanced hi impedance guitar signal. If your a sticker make it 20 feet as your rule but remember, buffers change the signal coupling and energy transfer most OD's want to see when they expect to see your pups, not a low imp buffered output.

Without knowing the other conditions in your setup, trying to diagnose why your tone is better (a subjective term) straight in is impossible and will have you going in circles, you have to treat the whole patient!

Feel free to share

[BluesHarp]

Barge ( I like the BV-1 ) stated this info about the 3 buffers they sell. Notice the part about "as a signal buffer". pgissi, I will get back to you with more details soon... thanks for the very detailed response!!!!:

"As a Volume control: Based on the topology of the Barge Concepts DB-3, the GLZ and BV volume circuit is designed to provide variable level control without altering the impedance or frequency response of your output signal. Use the GLZ or BV as a foot-switchable volume control to lower the ouput of your pickups, or use it as a fully buffered master volume control in the effects loop of your favorite amp.

As a Signal Buffer: The GLZ-1 and BV-1 use very low noise, audio grade Burr-Brown non-inverting buffers to insure transparent sound across the entire audible spectrum. With all signals buffered, you have a lower impedance signal driving the devices after the GLZor BV, as well as high impedance inputs to insure that a clear signal passes to the output.

As a passive signal emulator: The GLZ’s variable impedance control alters the resistive output of the buffering stage, to make the output signal appear more like a passive signal. This is particularly useful for bassists and guitarists with active pickups that want to send a 'passive-looking' signal to vintage effects that may not respond well to buffers.


GLZ-1 & BV-1 Features:
• Compact, aluminum enclosure. Footprint 4.7” x 2.5”.
• 3PDT true bypass switching.
• Dual color Bypass/Active LED indicator.
• Low noise, audio grade Burr Brown op-amps.
• Low noise, 1%, metal film resistors used throughout
• High quality mica, film, and tantalum capacitors for unmatched signal fidelity.
• Switchcraft jacks.
• Alpha pots with set-screw knobs.
• Clean interior layout with 2 silk-screened and solder-masked circuit boards.
• All audio jacks mounted on the North end to save board space.
• Industry standard 9V DC power jack (operation supported up to 18V with regulated power supply)
• Top quality 9V battery pre-installed.
• 7 day return policy
• Lifetime Transferable Warranty."

[BluesHarp]

[quote=pgissi;3803060]This is the only place to find so many divergent opinions, one day its buffers in 1st position another day its buffer last or 1 day true bypass suck tone and another day they dont.[qoute]

I know!

- Strat guitar with aps-1 SD pups.
- Fulltone 15 foot cable from strat.
-10 True Bypass pedals - 1 Boss TU-2.
-George L Patch cables Rolled with care and skill. I test every cable.
-Monster gold cable guitar edition/15ft to various amps.
-12 seperate patch cables and maybe...4 or 5ft Total.

True bypass pedals do NOT suck tone IMHO. But long cables and excessive connections might. I didnt rule out that the GL's could be a part of my problem. I agree with you that in my opinion the buffer seemed to do better at the end. I also agree, it kinda does make sense to let your pedals SEE your guitar and not a buffer signal.

Well, whats next?

[bhelvick1]

Well, whats next?

Start playin? :RoCkIn

Edit: totally joking. 100%. :AOK

[pgissi]

Forgot about the Barge, thats something worth exploring.

From the looks of your setup, its nothing out of the ordinary as far as signal cable length etc.

There is only one thing, thats the Tu-2.

You could move the tu-2 so its not in the signal chain and find a dedicated buffer, that would be the only thing other than cables with all TB pedals you have that your hearing and not liking.

[GuitarBrent]

Put your pedals in the order they sound the best to you, buffers and all. :jo

[BluesHarp]

What are your recomendations for a dedicated buffer if not the barge.


Forgot about the Barge, thats something worth exploring.

From the looks of your setup, its nothing out of the ordinary as far as signal cable length etc.

There is only one thing, thats the Tu-2.

You could move the tu-2 so its not in the signal chain and find a dedicated buffer, that would be the only thing other than cables with all TB pedals you have that your hearing and not liking.

[BluesHarp]

LOL Thanks Brent! :AOK

Put your pedals in the order they sound the best to you, buffers and all. :jo

[GuitarBrent]

LOL. I'm not really kidding though. I think we all sometimes overthink this, myself included. Ultimately we've gotta use our ears. I know that most of my fuzzes must be before any buffers or they suck big time. I've picked all of my fuzzes to make sure that they work after my unbuffered Teese Picture wah. My Experience Pedal works best before the wah. My Mojo Vibe works best before any overdrives or fuzzes too, but after my wah. I like my overdrive before my fuzzes to have something to push them in a pinch or major c-ck rock moment. Yes I know this now sounds like a crazy math problem at this point. My only buffer then is my Boss RE-20 at the end of my chain. I didn't see any list of the pedals you are running, so I really couldn't help further than just saying use those ears. :)

[BluesHarp]

My bad... 12 pedals including the wah.

sunface-beano-budwah-SSmojovibe-74reissuemxrphase(TB)-eternity-HBod-JetterGSR-purpleplexi-deepbluedelay-timmy-tu-2

[pgissi]

What are your recomendations for a dedicated buffer if not the barge.


CAE or Cornish Linear Boost/Line Driver-

Dunlop MXR/CAE Boost Line Driver
http://www.customaudioelectronics.com/effects.htm

LD-1 Line Driver/Tuner/Mute
http://www.musictoyz.com/guitar/pedals/cornish.php


Yeah use your ears, we all do that but if your asking yourself is there better or I am not hearing it, then your ears have been lieing to you to what extent only you know, or will soon find out.

I have done things a certain way for many years, have played for 27 years and the one constant has been change. But I think the changes I have made in these last 5 years or so were more in the right direction and were fundamentaly opposite of conventional thought like, using the TU-2 last. It just seemed wrong to move it to last but once I did I had an aha moment and thought, I am now hearing the pedals the way they were intended to sound like since the input coupling is true to the designers intent- guitar pups into coupling cap and tie down resistor.

Alter that pups to pedal input coupling and you have something different, maybe not better for all but definitely different. For me it was more natural, the way it should be. My OD's dont sound so generic and they are more easily distinguished from each other now with buffering last.

Now apply this to anywhere in the chain for any pedal, placing a buffering pedal between pedals that is without regard, its going to affect what comes after. You soon begin to realize all of the possible unknown conditions you may be introducing as you "use you ears".

Using buffering last eliminates this and likewise using a high quality dedicated buffer last is possibly the next best thing. I mean we are talkking about pedals here and how lately straight in sounds better to you whereas that was not the case previously, so what happened?

There is possibly a condition present that is now unknown and in addition, if your only playing at bedroom levels, your not really hearing it bloom so all bets are off.

I say possibly since I dont know whats happening after the pedals. Where else can you go from there other than different amps or guitars to answer your questions about your tone that your not feeling lately thru pedals and with all TB and only 1 buffer.

Thats just about plugged straight in and TU2 is the only buffer in the way and whats left, amp guitar cables.

Have you tried removing the TU-2. leaving all else in place and a/b'ing that?

Yeah I have used my ears and have done more a/b/c/d testing lately, noting the changes as I added or removed pedals and in addition changing pedal order, making notes all the while and this was the 1st time in so many years I took the time for this.

I ended up reworking it all

I discovered new things and smashed some preconceptions especially the ones my ears were telling me were correct for the better part of 27 years.

I dont think you can overthink this, your a slave to the electronic anomalies and idiosycracies that come with generating a magnetic induced ac current that is inherently weak, passing it through some long cabling and multiple audio processing stages (pedals and amp).

Most really have no idea what those little electrons are up against and its no wonder that guitar tone is as elusive and subjective as it is and its because a low level unbalanced hi impedance signal is the equivalent of the electronic Horton Hears a Who.


And once again using your ears is what its all about but is only valid if your ears have been given the courtesy of having to choose from a range of tone thru trial and error and the only way to accomplish that is to question and experiment.

Imagine this, what all of "Tonedom" was built on did not exist, we would have no point of reference or perspective and would be still slicing speakers with razors!

Until your ears get perspective, it remains the unknown and you wil continue to question.

I dont think the tone I have today is the best tone, but its the best tone I have ever had and thats what its all about.

Remove the TU2 if you hear a difference that you think is as toneful as straight in, get a better buffer. If not and your not sure about the pedals and you know you wnet thru each one individually along with all cables and cant find a bad egg, call the band and get them over and shake out the cobwebs at a volume your family will not like, this usually resets the brain.

Play straight and play with pedals loud then decide

[kenoflife]

maybe this has been said (I didn't read thru all that) - but an always on pedal acts like a buffer - so a quality booster (or comp) that has an eq you like -set for slight boost at the beginning of a chain will work as well as a 'buffer'.

I'd try ditching the GeorgeL's, based on personal experience..

[pgissi]

I'd try ditching the GeorgeL's, based on personal experience..


This would be my 1st move also just to do some a/b testing. Simply testing dc resistance is not the whole story with a patch cable since its carrying an AC current, a very weak one at that.

[BluesHarp]

George L's are a tad too bright.. but I have spent over $200 on them. I could sell them on the emporium... but I would just like to buy a quality cable by the ft and keep the right plugs if I can do that.... suggestions?

I have noticed my Timmy when on does a better buffering job than the tu-2 does. And thats with the tu-2 out of the circuit. The timmy is normally right behind it anyway as a full-on boost. Depending on what pedal I'm using, I may not want it on all the time though. I have a keeley 4 knob comp on the way, so I'm not ruling a comp set low low may not be a possible "always on" pedal.

By how my pedal line up looks: sunface-beano-budwah-SSmojovibe-74reissuemxrphase(TB)-eternity-HBod-JetterGSR-purpleplexi-deepbluedelay-timmy-tu-2.... What would you guys suggest here? The Ld-1 sounds good because it is a tuner too. I dont have much pedal room left. But if I found a good buffer that I liked always on, I could mount it underneath the board and just route the cables to the top. Do I need a buffer after my fuzz and beano to? To drive my pedals? Or just the one on the end?

pgissi: What "set-up" have you come to now? What and where is your buffer or buffers?

maybe this has been said (I didn't read thru all that) - but an always on pedal acts like a buffer - so a quality booster (or comp) that has an eq you like -set for slight boost at the beginning of a chain will work as well as a 'buffer'.

I'd try ditching the GeorgeL's, based on personal experience..

[kenoflife]

I think I would try a comp and/or the beano on to see if that would help the tone if a buffer is need earlier - rather than investing more pedal space/$ in a dedicated buffer. Depends if you use the comp as an 'effect' or as an overall enhancer...I usually have my BJF comp or Carb on - but to tell you the truth - I get thru the pedals alright as long as I have a booster (Klon or AD-900) at the end.

[kenoflife]

Also depends on the output of the guitar -

my tele could use a little boost at the outset (after fuzz/wah) to really
hit the other pedals well (especially Zendrive and HBOD)

my 335 doesn't need any help.

[BluesHarp]

You would normally think that the signal would get dull... but mine is just a tad ice-pickesh and well... it just looses something. Volume is a bit less maybe. I thought the slight brittle might be the cables... and it might be part of it. But the loss of... realness somewhere along the way bothers me more. I find turning down the tone knobs on my guitar softens the high end, but I dont want any fixs.. I want full original tone, as we all do.

[wahwah]

It should be noted that we can't just use the word "buffer" like it is a generic, magic wand term. There are all sorts of buffers, just as there are all sorts of AD/DA converters. The buffers in a cheap pedal are not there to restore the signal throughout a rig, they are there to to drive the low quality transistor based switching system. Sure, Pete Cornish can build you a very high quality buffer that will actually sound good, but that is not what you will find in a Boss pedal, for example. In fact, it was the tone sucking nature of those sorts of cheap pedals that led to the proliferation of true bypass designs in the first place! Buffers before good quality overdrive and distortion pedals sound horrible in most cases, even high quality ones, because they tend to add a glassy brightness which is hardly friendly to the tone and tends to add a stiffness to the signal, which is counterproductive.

For those who have come to the same conclusion as me that George L's seemed like a good idea at the time but are actually sonically brittle, you might be interested to check out the Core X2 stuff, which I would describe as being very guitar friendly. There are DIY kits, which are very easy to put together, and the cable doesn't split like .155 does in a George L angle jack. http://www.coreoneproduct.com/pages/corex2web/DIYGK20index.html

I find the minimal tone loss from a couple of 18ft cables and a series of true bypass pedals to be conducive to a more 'organic' tone hitting the front of the amp. If you are really noticing a significant loss, a true bypass looper to take a few pedals out of the chain when they're not being used is also a very good alternative.



Cheers.................................wahwah

[pgissi]

pgissi: What "set-up" have you come to now? What and where is your buffer or buffers?



I have some rules I adhere to now-

-guitar lead no longer than 15 or 20 feet and anything over means I need
a buffer in 1st position and live with it

-I strive to preserve the pups to pedal coupling by not using anything
that buffers in bypass in my signal chain and if I do use a buffering
pedal, it will soon be looped to bring it in and then take it out and until
then I am not using them

-I stack OD's with the dirtiest early on and the cleanest/booster type last
last so when I am stacking them, the clean booster at the end of the OD
subchain enhances what comes before and gives more raw and clean
boost rather than more saturation of an earlier pedal

-time domain fx like revs and delay are in my amp fx loop and chorusing,
flanging, phasing etc on the floor, pre-buffer in last position and looped
if not TB

Frankly I am tired of expecting to hear the pedal and instead I hear the pedal that comes before 100% of the time buffering my tone ...unless I can switch it in and out .

Here it is
80 Les Paul Custom w/pearly Gates
77 Les Paul Custom w/57 specials
SRV Strat
Ibanez RG450DX
Floyd Rose DSOT

into cable and in this order-

15' Monster cable (which I will soon a/b with some lavaman and others)
Patches are older factory Pro Co's and no longer than 6"
Boss CS-3 (on the board but not in the chain until looped)
Boss EH-1 (on the board but not in the chain until looped)
Digitech Jimi (yeah I know a modeller, it was an indulgent impulse buy and not in the chain once again until looped)

Retroman Beano
Rat2
AC Booster
Roger Mayer Mongoose
TS-9 Resissue (not in the chain until looped)
Sparkle Drive

DOD Envelope Follower (not in chain until looped)
Dunlop Univibe (not in the chain until looped)

TU-2 into an older Pro Co Excalibur 25 foot cable

Rivera R30 into Marshall 1936 2x12 with a Boss LS-2 in the loop parallel blending an older Boss DSD-2 Sampler Delay and and RV-3 and then a GE-7 EQ post all that and modded for remote on/off for a clean boost pre-output stage.

I use the TU-2 as the buffer dead last and am loving it this way and recently changed it from 1st position. I can now hear the pedals the way they really sound. All OD's use batteries and all other pedals are Boss PSA powered.

I am planning on some changes and experiments and am building a new pedalboard, bigger version of my custom designed wood board I made in 94 and its not the flat and square variety you see-

1) Loopmaster or maybe Voodoo Labs looping for any non TB pedals
2) Voodoo PP2 for all pedalboard power
3) Dedicated buffer at the end move TU-2 out and use the CAE or Cornish

I dont think the TU-2 is bad but then again, I dont have perspective beyond it and will be getting some soon and thats why I encouraged you to try also.

Fact is you just dont know until then and I am resigned to spending some money and not being happy on occassion, its not avoidable

[BluesHarp]

We are on the same page.. but you have a more complicated setup. This is a great discussion.

[pgissi]

There are all sorts of buffers, just as there are all sorts of AD/DA converters. The buffers in a cheap pedal are not there to restore the signal throughout a rig, they are there to to drive the low quality transistor based switching system. Sure, Pete Cornish can build you a very high quality buffer that will actually sound good, but that is not what you will find in a Boss pedal, for example. In fact, it was the tone sucking nature of those sorts of cheap pedals that led to the proliferation of true bypass designs in the first place! Buffers before good quality overdrive and distortion pedals sound horrible in most cases, even high quality ones, because they tend to add a glassy brightness which is hardly friendly to the tone and tends to add a stiffness to the signal, which is counterproductive.



Good stuff, all relevant.

I can attest to the varying quality of buffering since I built my own some years ago. In the early 80's I built several Craig Anderton projects in search of knowledge, experience and tone and since then been involved both personally and professionaly in electronics for almost as long as I have been playing with an emphasis on signal transmission and processing in both video and audio. I now work in Telecom so processing audio is just something I deal with daily.

One of the projects I built all of those years ago and will soon be rebuilding with my 14 year old son to introduce him to this obsession of not only finding tone but maybe even creating it, was the Spluffer, a dual splitter active buffer. I think I cand do it better today and will use a PCB service rather than etch my own like I did way back when. When I did not etch I used Radio Shack tined Perfboard, but anyway....

I built several versions and came to understand quickly that there is more than just carefully constructing it and having it work.

-its about component type/quality and tolerances and in circuit performance
-its about total layout paying special attention to signal routing
-power supply performance

Needless to say that one of my versions out of the total of 4 that I built even approached a tolerable perfomance level so I had to tweak the others and find where it went wrong and let me tell you, there are only a handful of components, it perhaps the easiset thing to build and yet, I got different results.

It typically ended up being the Op-Amp, required changing it to find the best in a lot of them.

I soon realized that not all buffers are created equal and although Craigs design is good, all of the other compromises I introduced is what reduced its performance.

Now what is Cornish or CAE doing that sets them apart. CAE/MXR is not as pricey but then again, its probably only derived of Bob B's original custom designs for his clients using lower cost components to make it mass marketable and the cornish buffer is pricey for a very simple device.

If you looked inside you would be shocked that you paid all of that money for 1 or 2 op-amps, 2 to 4 resistors and caps, the pcb, jacks and housing. It has no knobs or control, its a few components and a nice housing but yet, is the solution pro's seek and if it did not deliver, you would see more pro rigs using the TU-2

There must be something there that is so deceptively simple looking at it but yet has exceeds others in performance.

In the end its the sum total of all things

Check this out, the spluffer schematic on this page, it is simple and yet how much are they going for-
http://www.threepoundsofbakon.com/guitarfx/buffer.htm

So the moral of the story is to keep things in perspective and realize most design is a compromise and when its not its gonna cost

[BluesHarp]

pedals r kewl man

[ylo]

There are all sorts of buffers,

+1

Its a nuisance, but you've got to try buffers, bypass loops, pedals in various positions to figure out what best eliminates tone suck.

I use two buffers, one right after my wah, then one at the end of the chain to drive the signal through the long cord to the amp, plus true bypass loops & pedals in between.

I use home-made buffers based on Anderton's 'Spluffer.' This is a simple circuit that works great, very transparent with good quality components. However, getting the circuit built and working is a royal pain in the ass for the mechanically and electronically challenged like me -- $250 worth of time and aggravation to put $4 worth of parts together.

There is alot to be said for just biting the bullet and buying one or two of the damn things.