Nice flamed tops: Why so expensive with the big boys?

[kingsxman]

Just noticing after getting my latest Carvin catalog how incredibly beautiful thier guitar tops are. And they arent priced over 3k or 4k like some of the Gibsons and PRS's that have comparable tops. I am starting to look for a nicer Les Paul than what I currently have and was considering a 59 historic..but the prices with a nice top are just outrageous. It just got me thinking about how much extra we're getting gouged....

Check these tops:
http://www.carvinguitars.com/isa/process/getGuitars.php?modelID=14

[morlll]

Because they can:D

People are buying them at those inflated prices.

[rockinlespaul]

I've been slobering over Carvin catolog's since the late 70's. They make a fine instrument, but their necks are too slim for me.

[JUSTJOB]

Just noticing after getting my latest Carvin catalog how incredibly beautiful thier guitar tops are. And they arent priced over 3k or 4k like some of the Gibsons and PRS's that have comparable tops. I am starting to look for a nicer Les Paul than what I currently have and was considering a 59 historic..but the prices with a nice top are just outrageous. It just got me thinking about how much extra we're getting gouged....

Check these tops:
http://www.carvinguitars.com/isa/process/getGuitars.php?modelID=14

Well who is gouging who? The Carvin CS6 California Single is really no more guitar than a Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus and in my opinion the Gibson is the better of the two. And it would not be a fair comparison to compare the Carvin to the higher end Gibsons because of all the extra intensive labor that goes into putting all the binding on them.
I submit, the Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus;
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Les-Paul-Studio-Premium-Plus-Electric-Guitar?sku=517372
Add in the price of the case for the Carvin and the price is more for it! And the pickups aren't to my preference. You would think that with no middle man that they could make more guitars that could compete price wise with Gibson and fender. Don't even try to convince me that the Carvin is in the same league as a PRS! Plus there is a huge hit if ever try to resell. So no, I don't think Carvin is the bargain it used to be, unless you score one used.
Best Regards!

[guitarfish]

Carvin's tops are AMAZING. The latest Les Paul Standards at some of the local stores have been very ho-hum uninspiring. When people say things like "you got a good one", it usually means there's some out there that ain't so good. I was in the market for a new LP Stamdard, and was incredulous about spending 2 grand and getting a top that was so drab. Meanwhile, the Carvin I paid half that for has a phenomenal top.

So, short answer to your question: because they can, and people will still pay it.

[PLAYLOUD]

Carvin has the buying power to probably buy the nice tops in bulk getting a better rate. They use technology to crank those out one after another. The small builders, while some have CNC's, still put a lot of hand labor into them. Not to mention they probably don't buy in bulk. Even though Carvin isn't charging $3 or $4k, I bet they are still making a good amount.

The small builder probably has way more hours in a guitar, that's the big difference. So I guess it comes down to a hand crafted $3k guitar or a mass produced $1500 guitar like the Carvin (which I've heard good things about). Bottom line buy what you want. But the fact is, they buy in bulk, utilize technology to build guitars faster, so utimatley they can charge less. BTW, they're direct so no middle man another reason why it's not $3k.

Pretty basic economics, I guess

[PLAYLOUD]

Oh yeah BTW, Carvin is probably buying in board feet not considering the weight of the wood. I think a look of small builders buy on weight, more expensive.

[guitarfish]

I think Gibson is buying way more flamed maple then Carvin ever dreamed of.

[PLAYLOUD]

I think Gibson thinks they're the only game in town. Most new Gibson's I've played are terrible.

[kingsxman]

Well who is gouging who? The Carvin CS6 California Single is really no more guitar than a Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus and in my opinion the Gibson is the better of the two. And it would not be a fair comparison to compare the Carvin to the higher end Gibsons because of all the extra intensive labor that goes into putting all the binding on them.
I submit, the Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus;
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Les-Paul-Studio-Premium-Plus-Electric-Guitar?sku=517372
Add in the price of the case for the Carvin and the price is more for it! And the pickups aren't to my preference. You would think that with no middle man that they could make more guitars that could compete price wise with Gibson and fender. Don't even try to convince me that the Carvin is in the same league as a PRS! Plus there is a huge hit if ever try to resell. So no, I don't think Carvin is the bargain it used to be, unless you score one used.
Best Regards!

This thread isnt about why Carvin is better or worse than other guitar companies..... Just about why Gibson and PRS get so much more for thier flamed/quilted tops.

But I have to respond....Carvins quality is better than Gibsons but not quite PRS.

[kingsxman]

Carvin has the buying power to probably buy the nice tops in bulk getting a better rate.
Pretty basic economics, I guess

And Gibson doesnt???

[PLAYLOUD]

hence my statement, I guess.

[JUSTJOB]

This thread isnt about why Carvin is better or worse than other guitar companies..... Just about why Gibson and PRS get so much more for thier flamed/quilted tops.



Point taken. I was not implying that Carvin was better or worse, they seem to make a nice product. I should restate that in both of the guitars I mentioned (CS6 California Single Carved Top vs. Les Paul Studio Plus) the Gibson would be a better value, especially when consider price and resale value unless that is, one plans on never selling the guitar ever. Gibson and PRS have to pay a middle man. If we could buy direct I am sure the price would be much lower. All I was stateing is that the Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus is made of the same basic materials, is of the same basic design, is approximately equal in quality, and cost about the same, but the Carvin has a lower resale, and Gibson has to pay a middle man vs. Carvin does not.
Yes, they are both great guitars I am sure, but like it or not Carvin is making a higher profit per guitar made of equal materials, price, and construction. So maybe, when you figure in the extra hands on labor that goes into putting binding on a guitar by hand, spraying it in Nitro, using higher quality pots and pickups, and paying middle men to broker the guitar, advertisment, etc. that just maybe were not getting gouged as bad as you seem to imply.
Best Regards!

[XKnight]

I think the PRS flame tops are nicer for the money than most Gibson tops I've seen. You can buy a new non 10 top PRS for less money than most Gibson flame tops.

The Carvins look nice, but since I can't play them anywhere near me they aren't on my to buy list. Maybe next time I'm in CA I'll stop by the Carvin store and check them out.

[DWB1960]

Are Carvin's figured tops a veneer or the complete top? That would be a big part of it. A 3/4" thick figured piece of maple that would be used to make 1 Gibson or PRS top could be sliced into enough sheets to probably make 10-12 veneered tops.

[jimlp]

I just bought this guitar and the maple top on this guitar cost the designer $40.00, his tops are only 5/16's of an inch thick but they got 2 tops out of this piece of wood so a 1/2 top would have been possible as it is flat not arched. Gibson and PRS are raping people for a good top.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/jimlp/Carlino1-1.jpg

[kingsxman]

I just bought this guitar and the maple top on this guitar cost the designer $40.00, his tops are only 5/16's of an inch thick but they got 2 tops out of this piece of wood so a 1/2 top would have been possible as it is flat not arched. Gibson and PRS are raping people for a good top.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/jimlp/Carlino1-1.jpg

What is that? Thats a cool guitar. (Coming from someone who's collection wont be complete until I have a Ibanez PS-10 Paul Stanley model). :dude

[kingsxman]

Point taken. I was not implying that Carvin was better or worse, they seem to make a nice product. I should restate that in both of the guitars I mentioned (CS6 California Single Carved Top vs. Les Paul Studio Plus) the Gibson would be a better value, especially when consider price and resale value unless that is, one plans on never selling the guitar ever. Gibson and PRS have to pay a middle man. If we could buy direct I am sure the price would be much lower. All I was stateing is that the Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus is made of the same basic materials, is of the same basic design, is approximately equal in quality, and cost about the same, but the Carvin has a lower resale, and Gibson has to pay a middle man vs. Carvin does not.
Yes, they are both great guitars I am sure, but like it or not Carvin is making a higher profit per guitar made of equal materials, price, and construction. So maybe, when you figure in the extra hands on labor that goes into putting binding on a guitar by hand, spraying it in Nitro, using higher quality pots and pickups, and paying middle men to broker the guitar, advertisment, etc. that just maybe were not getting gouged as bad as you seem to imply.
Best Regards!

No sweat. Used Carvins (like used american G&L's) are some of the best values out there. Its why its hard to buy either of those 2 new.

[Red Planet]

Those dang thangs sure do look sweet. :dude

[HeeHaw]

I can't think of any music I'd want to heat that was ever recorded by a PRS or a Carvin. Therefore I don't need to own one.:D

I did have an SC that sounded great, but it wasn't anywhere near the tone of the R7 goldtop that I used to own. In spite of it's weight, (it could have been used as an anchor) it actually sustained and resonated really well. My main problem with it was the wide fat neck was just too much for my sausage fingers.

[crosse79]

It's all about branding and people pay much more for that...

[kingsxman]

I can't think of any music I'd want to heat that was ever recorded by a PRS or a Carvin. Therefore I don't need to own one.:D

I did have an SC that sounded great, but it wasn't anywhere near the tone of the R7 goldtop that I used to own. In spite of it's weight, (it could have been used as an anchor) it actually sustained and resonated really well. My main problem with it was the wide fat neck was just too much for my sausage fingers.

there is not doubt that the "cool" factor isnt there from a headstock perspective. I've had a few Carvins...but dont have them anymore. Cool factor was probably one of the reasons that led to thier dismissal from the stable. However, these new "non strat" styled guitars that they have really do look very nice and up the ante I think. I mean, that new semi hollow that they have looks like an absolute killer guitar. And I know that they are made better than anything that Gibson is going to put out short of a custom shop model.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/isa/process/getGuitars.php?modelID=14

[jimlp]

What is that? Thats a cool guitar. (Coming from someone who's collection wont be complete until I have a Ibanez PS-10 Paul Stanley model). :dude


The guitar is a Carlino Identity, check them out at www.carlinoguitars.com. It's funny that you mention the PS-10 as the designer of the Identity is a huge Kiss fan and has 28 of them. The prices on the website are MAP and are negotiable.

[Dave Orban]

Marketing.

[John Thigpen]

Mmmm...Economics. Supply and demand.

When Carvins are as desirable as Gibsons and PRS's (meaning you see a lot more iconic players identified with them), Carvins will cost as much.

John

[Speed_Racer71]

always thought that the price of a prs cu22 with a 10 top was high..but when you compare it to a new R9....well then its a deal :AOK

[Peppy]

Carvin has the buying power to probably buy the nice tops in bulk getting a better rate. They use technology to crank those out one after another. The small builders, while some have CNC's, still put a lot of hand labor into them. Not to mention they probably don't buy in bulk. Even though Carvin isn't charging $3 or $4k, I bet they are still making a good amount.

The small builder probably has way more hours in a guitar, that's the big difference. So I guess it comes down to a hand crafted $3k guitar or a mass produced $1500 guitar like the Carvin (which I've heard good things about). Bottom line buy what you want. But the fact is, they buy in bulk, utilize technology to build guitars faster, so utimatley they can charge less. BTW, they're direct so no middle man another reason why it's not $3k.

Pretty basic economics, I guess


You're discussing the "small builders" and yet the OP is talking about the "big boys"...Gibson. Thus it's not all about "basic economics".

[kingsxman]

The guitar is a Carlino Identity, check them out at www.carlinoguitars.com (http://www.carlinoguitars.com). It's funny that you mention the PS-10 as the designer of the Identity is a huge Kiss fan and has 28 of them. The prices on the website are MAP and are negotiable.

You can tell the guitar is based off an Iceman. He should try to get Paul Stanley to endorse his new guitars..... Oh thats right...Pauls endorsing Silvertone now. :jo (and has lost all credibility IMHO)..

[jimlp]

You can tell the guitar is based off an Iceman. He should try to get Paul Stanley to endorse his new guitars..... Oh thats right...Pauls endorsing Silvertone now. :jo (and has lost all credibility IMHO)..


He is actually giving one to Paul next month I believe, I have no idea if he will play it or not. I think his deal with Silvertone is up this summer. The guitar is actually inspired by the Iceman the Mokingbird and the Explorer, they were the designers 3 favorite guitars from the 70's. Looks are decieving though as none of the angles/measurements are the same as the originals.

[rastaman]

For as far as I can remember PRS and Gibson [PRS for arguements sake] have always charged a $hitload of money for thier guitars.

[Iceman8.6]

I thought Gibson was charging more for their awesome QC practices....

[jtees4]

No sweat. Used Carvins (like used american G&L's) are some of the best values out there. Its why its hard to buy either of those 2 new.

Agreed. And I'd add some of the Hamer USA's also to that list of great used values.

[stevieboy]

No one "gouges" or "rapes" anyone when it comes to pricing a nonessential, basically luxury item or for extra ornamentation on a useful item, like a flame top on a Les Paul. People that buy them can afford them and don't really care if they're "worth it."

While you guys you may be right about the value, and I'm not a flametop guy at all, I personally save that kind of drama for gas prices or the like.

[stratzrus]

I am starting to look for a nicer Les Paul than what I currently have and was considering a 59 historic..but the prices with a nice top are just outrageous. It just got me thinking about how much extra we're getting gouged....
I think many guitars purchased new seem overpriced.

I got a really nice flametop LP Classic used for less than $1,600. That seemed like a very reasonable price to me.

I've also seen LPs in Guitar Center that went for $5K and didn't look as nice as mine. It pays to be a good shopper...they'll gouge you if you'll let them.

[Pietro]

I've played and owned Gibson, Carvin, and now PRS (although mine doesn't have a maple top.)

A great Gibson, imho, outclasses a great Carvin in so many ways. A great PRS (which is most all of the ones I have played, and certainly the one I now own) outclasses both. Just better guitars.

Don't get me wrong, Carvin makes a good guitar... but it ain't no PRS...

[kingsxman]

[quote=Pietro;3819235]
A great Gibson, imho, outclasses a great Carvin in so many ways. A great PRS (which is most all of the ones I have played, and certainly the one I now own) outclasses both. Just better guitars.

quote]

I dont think anyone would disagree with that. I'd much rather have a great Gibby or Fender than a Hamer or G&L. That being said...how many do you have to go thorugh to find a good Gibson/Fender compared to the other 2?

[Trebor Renkluaf]

Because they can:D

People are buying them at those inflated prices.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding... we have a winner. Thread over.

[alvagoldbook]

Carvin's finishes are impressive, but the guitars themselves have never impressed me. Their amps are ok in a pinch though.

[Lawn Jockey]

I've got two McCartys. Both were bought new. One was $1,800.00 and is a 10 top/birds, the other a non-10 top/moons for less than $1,600.00. The non-10 top is almost, if not better than the 10 top.

The difference in PRS tops, it seems to me, is the presence of mineral streaks in the Michigan maple. While hard to photograph, to look at they are stunning. IMHO some PRS tops remind me of the flame on some of the 50's Les Pauls...real natural...and not too over the top.

I've yet to see a Carvin possess those qualities but they might be out there.

[Pietro]

quote]

I dont think anyone would disagree with that. I'd much rather have a great Gibby or Fender than a Hamer or G&L. That being said...how many do you have to go thorugh to find a good Gibson/Fender compared to the other 2?

I find that Fenders these days, even those made in Mexico, are very consistent. I find that G&L is about the same, maybe a little better (not counting the asian imports). I've ignored Gibsons for a while now (the three friends have owned recently have been GREAT), but I have NEVER met a Heritage I didn't love.

And I've never played a Hamer that i didn't like, although I haven't owned one.

But, back to the original point, I never met a Carvin I could bond with at all, including the one I unfortunately owned for a year or so.

[kingsxman]

But, back to the original point, I never met a Carvin I could bond with at all, including the one I unfortunately owned for a year or so.

I think its the electronics. Plus, I think subconsiously we have in our heads that no one of note plays them. The Carvin amps can have a certain coolness becuase Vai plays the Legacy. That gives them some legitimacy. However, on the guitar side..other than Holdsworth, and he's not really a household name, they have no one.