What makes a solid state amp sound good?

[doc]

Although those here that feel that solid state amps can sound as good or better than tubes for guitar are in a minority, I think that there is a general consensus that some solid state amps sound considerably better than others. Here's the question for you high-level amp gurus out there - what specific design/circuit/component aspects make the difference between a great sounding solid state amp and a mediocre one? With tubes I generally have a feel for design aspects like cascading gain stages for crunch, "sagging" rectifiers, saturating vs. hi-fi transformers, etc., but for solid state I don't have as good a feel for it, partly because theres little serious discussion of the topic. As far as I can tell, if you like solid state you just buy the one you like and are done with it. I suspect that solid state amps, like tubed amps, might respond well to some tweaking, and would like input on things to try, or at least why some sound better than others (so I know what design elements to look for in future purchases). I'm particularly interested in older, straightforward designs like old Peaveys, Rolands, Polytones, and Yamahas for this discussion, not so much digital stuff.

:banana - after all that typing I needed a banana, man.

[doc]

Do I know how to start a smokin' thread, or what. Guess I should've titled it Hot Babe/D*mble/'Burst content or something.

[Old Tele man]

...a 'tin ear'?


...actually, a solid-state amp CAN sound very good, just not exactly as good as a vacuum-tube amp...mostly because of three things: (a) difference in conductance curves and gains between ss (sharp) and tubes (soft); (b) difference in harmonic generations (even vs. odd); and (c) the "accustomed ear" syndrome (where you 'hear' what you WANT to hear...), ie: the ss "watt" loudness vs. a vacuum tube "watt" loudness (which really isn't true, but the myth still persists).

[doc]

Thanks for the reply. I understand some of the reasons a tube amp might sound better than a transistor amp, but I'm curious about reasons one solid state amp might sound better than another solid state amp.

[alltone]

I can't comment on the amps you have listed, but I have used a Bryston 3B for a while..loved it, clean, lots of headroom and a very nice soft clip.I had that paired up with a Neve 1173 Input strip..wish I still had that one..Stupid..Stupid...Stupid!:jo

[rockford]

I have an old randall rg80 ( 1982 ) that sounds real good for transistor.
Big transformer.

[phsyconoodler]

I have had a few SS amps over the years that were really nice as long as you didn't play them beside a smokin' tube amp.Then they just faded away.I like the clean sounds on a Randall RG80 and some marshall amps but the distortion is contrived and artificial sounding.Some older Peavey amps had a decent tone too.Built like tanks too.Many are still in service today.I had a Fender Rocpro 700 and I liked it until I heard a Blackface Deluxe Reverb.
If you get used to the SS sound it can work just fine.Just don't show up to a gig with an SS amp smaller than 100 watts and expect to play hardball with a 40 watt tube amp.Won't happen.

[RedMan]

I used to have a Sunn Coliseum that sounded pretty good. I think a good speaker helps too.

[jezzzz2003]

What makes a solid state amp sound good you ask?

















NOTHING!
:banana

:agree

[searchin4signal]

I gotta say THE GUITAR PLAYER is the one that'd make a S.S. amp sound good.... :D

[Rosewood]

One thing I would have to have is power, lots of it because the last thing you wanna hear is the output transistors clipping.

[daddyo]

Seriously? I have a Cube 30 I use for practising and while the cleans are good, it's no tube amp. So for lush cleans I started using my Allums modded Boss CS 3 set for subtle compression. It takes the fake feel out and gives a natural tube compression. Try it.

[FloridaSam]

BB King.

[mark norwine]

What makes a solid state amp sound good?


ummmm....how 'bout "the sound of it being dropped into a dumpster and landing directly on the bagpipes!"

[doc]

I woudna go about dissin' me pipes if ya know whats good fer ye.


I gotta admit I'm a little surprised that we've had NO posts from anyone that seems to think that solid state is worthy of anything more than practice amp status or loud thrash noise-making. Where are the advocates of Pritchards, Roland JC-120s, Yamahas, etc.?


On second thought, I haven't checked lately to see who's been banned lately - maybe I should lay low.

[RedMan]

I know one thing for sure that makes em sound good. Ripping the guts out, punching the chassis out for tubes and building it the right way.

[doc]

Hey, no fair, you're all piling on!

Mods, help! Ban some of these bullies! I'm being beaten around the head and shoulders by tube wielding goons!

[mark norwine]

ok....how about a serious reply?

What makes a solid state amp sound good?

In my view, the one thing that makes a ss amp sound good is a jazz guitarist with a quality archtop that is asking his amp to faithfully reporduce the clean tones he's creating. To that end, I like:

Acoustic Image & Henrikson & Polytone amps a lot.

~~

Sorry if my bagpipe joke ruffled feathers...

mn

[daddyo]

My suggestion of a compressor will work with either a Cube 30 or 60 for low to medium vol gigs especially if the amp is run through the P/A.

[pir8matt]

They always sound best right after they're turned off.

;)

[phsyconoodler]

:NUTS:crazy:warning:eek::confused::banana:messedup :jo

Seriously,a well-made ss amp with a high quality speaker can sound great clean,it's just the clipping of transistors thats' unpleasant.
There are good SS amps,but they are only for jazz(imho).Expecting more is not realistic.

[jay42]

Where are the advocates of Pritchards, Roland JC-120s, Yamahas, etc.?I saw Steve Winwood several years ago. He was using one of the 100W Yamaha 2-12" combo amps. It sounded okay from the audience. I understand those weigh just as much as a Twin Reverb. The box version was called a DG Stomp, or something like that.

[donnyjaguar]

A solid state amplifier that uses a push-pull output into an output transformer sounds rather tubey to my ears. Generally these are the oldies with the germanium output devices. So I guess my point is that its not necessarily tubes sound different than transistors, but certain circuits have characteristic tonal qualities. You don't see solid state amplifiers with output transformers any more. I have worked on a Roland and noted that the output devices are true complimentary. Not sure if they went this route for tonal reasons or ease of repair though.

[doc]

I think you're onto something there. I've had tube amps that sound very clean and "solid state" - usually ones with very high quality transformers and no carbon comp resistors. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to mimic the rolloff that a mildly saturated transformer produces with a modern transistor amp? The simple way would be to simply insert a 1:1 transformer between the OP transistors and speaker, but that would be pretty involved and expensive. I bet you could mimic that with a cheap circuit somehow.

I found a few answers to making a solid state amp sound somewhat better - see my "Hadaway mod" posts.

[BenH]

Most,especialy early transistor amps, were built along the lines of hifi cicuits, aiming for a clean sound. This involves having a very low internal output impedance which locks the speakers very tightly to the drive through the negative current feedback, so no matter which speaker you plug into it they all sound much the same. Later designs improved upon this by incorperating the speaker into the feedback loop by lifting the "cold " side from ground with a small high wattage resistor and joining the base side of the voltage divider of the NFB resisor to this point. This lowers the internal impedance of the amp to much more tube like levels, and lets the individual tone of the speaker to have more freedom, adding more life to the sound, and allowing some compression. This added resistor can be bridged by a poti to make the affect variable,as hughs and kettner did with there "character" poti on the PCS50. This is a mod that is not to hard to do and there has been quite a lot written over the subject.
Ben.

[doc]

Thanks Ben. Can you point me to some of the info you refer to as "quite a lot written over the subject"? This sounds like something I might like to add to one of my amps.

[BenH]

OOh......doc,
Sorry, how's your german ? I have seen it in german books on transistor amplifiers and magazine articles devoted to HIFI electronics, but I can't point you to any english reference sources. It is common practice though, so there must be stuff to find. I must admit to only glancing briefly over the subject as it is not where my interests lie.
Ben

[doc]

I have a smattering of German, but not enough to be much use. If I can look at some of the German references on the net I may be able to use your comments plus some schematics from the literature you cite to make sure I understand, or at least enough to direct my search for equivalent English sources. Thanks for your help!

[BenH]

Hi doc, here is something to be getting started with, I'll see what else I can find.
http://sound.westhost.com/project56. (http://sound.westhost.com/project56.htm)htm (http://sound.westhost.com/project56.htm)
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=4751
Ben.

[Jack Briggs]

BB King.


.......or Albert King.

[doc]

Thanks again Ben, that is definitely helpful.:AOK

[teleman1]

I have an old Yamah G-5 amp. Pine cabinet with a wicker front. Looks like a Mesa Boogie. It is a tiny amp with a 6 inch speaker. Its cleans at low volume are exceptional. Also the low watt Dan electro vintage naugahyde amps. I have a nifty seventy. Both of these amps are sweet sounding at low volume. Way bak in the day I had an Acoustic 154 with 6-10's. Distortion was not in is vocaulary even on full blast. IMHO SS is trrible for higher volume, but for practice and not wating good tubes, they are the bomb,especially mine.

[alltone]

I heard a killer "Country" band at a big outdoor venue a few years back.Bass, drums, pedal steel(Al Brisco), guitar(Joe?) and fiddle. The guitarist ran an older Tele into a Peavey Special 130, no EFX. The mic.that was on the amp dropped down.. the player could hear that he wasn't in the mains anymore.(his stage volume was fairly low up to that point).The sound guy was busy looking at the girls.. He just reached down and upped the volume a bit,you could hear his solos just fine!!It's the only Peavey SS that I've ever heard that had the clarity and projection.:band
http://www.google.ca/search?q=peavey+special+130++solid+state+combo+amp s&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[BenH]

An interesting self build project for a solid state Guitar amp can be found here
http://sound.westhost.com/project27.htm (http://sound.westhost.com/project27.htm)
Thats the second up-dated version The original is here
http://sound.westhost.com/project27b.htm
One of the updates is the raiseing of the output impedance like I mentioned before. But there are other good guitar amp specific design ideas sitting in there, plus sugestions of ways to achieve usfull mods to suit your own tastes and requirements; and all that in a fairly straight forward "Classic" Solid state design.
Check it out.
Ben.

[booj]

Big output transistors, quality circuits, and power trannys seem to yeild good results.

[dunara]

What can make a SS amp sound good?

Good pedals, particularly a good compressor. I have a couple of SS amps (a Lab L9 and a Fender 85), and whilst they're quite different, they both respond well to a Boss Cs2 and/or a Marshall Guv'ner. There are some things that these amps do that my valve amps would be all wrong for.
A lot of the (peretinent) comments so far have been right on the money. Don't use them at full tilt - power transistor distortion does not rock. Don't be tempted wind up the treble - they won't shimmer - at least not like a good Deluxe Reverb can.
Its unfortunate that SS amps are on the receiving end of such prejudice - a good SS amp is way better than an ordinary valve one (although, granted, a good valve amp is more desirable than a good SS one).

[mbratch]

I so much wanted to say, "Putting the power switch in the 'off' position". ;)

But seriously, there are some very well thought of SS amps, particularly for jazzers. Polytone and Roland Chorus amps come to mind.

For distortion, I think what seems to work well are the pre-amps based upon FET technology.

[edwarddavis]

tubes

[Rod]

The only SS amps I ever owned that were really in a good tube amp's league for tone and feel were the H&K Vendetta..a modelling amp, and a Pritchard Black Dagger....both were fine amps for what they did, but did they sound or feel as good as my Aiken Sabre or Alessandro English?? No.......Did they sound better than a lot of production Tube amps..like what you'd find at GC?...Yes

[Ben F.]

Where are the advocates of Pritchards, Roland JC-120s, Yamahas, etc.?

I'm still here. :D

I'm pretty tired of the advocacy thing, actually, but what differentiates Mr. Pritchard's amps from the rest of the field is mostly the design. The quality of the components is important, too, but the design still matters more. Design is an intangible thing.

I'm not an EE, so I can't explain the intricacies of Eric's design to you, but I think he has successfully overcome OTM's objections. The majority of TGP members either disagree with me or haven't tried the amps to hear for themselves. Those that have heard and disliked the amps can seldom articulate what was "wrong" or "missing," so there is little point in discussing it further.

Check out the Award-Session website if you want some ideas about what they think improves a traditional SS design.

-Ben

[HammyD]

Turning it off.... (Just kidding, never bothered BB!)

[Lyle Caldwell]

All predictable jokes aside, the trick is that unlike tubes, SS circuits go from clean to hard clipping, in an unpleasant way.

There have been two ways to get around this -

1) Making so much power and headroom available that clipping does not occur at most volumes that will be used (Roland JC-120 is a good example).

2) Putting limiters in the circuit so that clipping is softer and there is some compression and good sounding overdrive that occurs before the power amp clips (Vox Super Beatle).

Neither approach will replace a Marshall plexi circuit - this is about making a good sounding loud clean amp.

That said, the traditional SS circuits were never great solutions, and the concept is pretty much dead. Modeling amps (Line 6, Fractal Audio) have gone places with DSP that transistors never could (well, a football field's worth of transistors might manage), and SS power amp technology has more than caught up in terms of massive power and headroom in a small lightweight package.

I still think we're a few years away from a "perfect" SS rig for guitar (though Cliff at Fractal deserves huge kudos - he's ahead of the pack), but eventually, yes, you will be able to pair an "Axe-FX 3" with a SS power amp and a full range speaker cab and get any tone you want. That day will be cool.

Until then, I prefer good tube design.

[Tone_Terrific]

Good tone is absolutely attainable with ss amps.

Maybe 'your' particular brand of tone requires something else but, to me, the differences are slight, when I dial in good tube tone vs good ss tone.
Good speakers, are required for both and typically the better ss amps have big transformers and heat sinks, and weigh nearly as much as the tube equivalent.

At the low end, amps such as the PV Rage 158 use a modular output stage that must have limiting and/or controlled clipping built in as they sound quite good, running hard, into good speakers.

The number of people who disregard ss amps because of prejudice, makes for a lot of bargains in the used market.

I have a PV Special 130, too, that is great on the clean side and the od side should be moddable to, at least, Tubescreamer quality, but I haven't dug into it that far.

[Jazz guru]

I will add my 2 cents here - I would say the Tech 21 Trademark 60 and the Roland JC-120 are good SS amps. I have them both. The Roland is clean and can be cold and sterile if not set up right. The Tech 21 is easier to dial in.
I think the transformers are a big deal in SS as well as tubed stuff.
The Tech 21 has a torrodial (sp?) transformer - the round kind. No idea what the JC120 has. For me every amp (guitar and stereo) that had that type of transformer sounded good to me.
All tha being said right now my favorite amp (tubed) is a THD Univalve and a Fender Vibro King is a close second.

[mcuguitar]

Roland JC120's sound fine for clean playing. I've owned and gigged with one, and I wouldn't mind having another one...for the right price that is. Unfortunately, I've been so spoiled by the boutique PTP tube amps, that I don't know if I'll ever pay medium cash for a SS amp again. And there are so many more choices out there now for low powered all tube PTP amps. One of the HUGE knocks agains't solid state amps, and even tube hybrid amps...is their durability. If something ever happens to the main board of most SS amps...they're done or VERY expensive to fix...sometimes you'll need a whole new circuit board to remedy the damage. Did you see the pic of that Marshall with the hole burned clean through the circuit board?
I myself have a Fender Princeton 90 sitting in the garage gathering dust. I got tired of fixing the dang circuit board in that amp...it's just not reliable any more. Anybody want one for cheep cheep? And there you go Doc...long live PTP hand-wired tube amps!

[Crunchyriff]

The Marianas Trench? :D

Hey I'm using an X3Live now so I can say that and smile...

[daphil]

Although those here that feel that solid state amps can sound as good or better than tubes for guitar are in a minority, I think that there is a general consensus that some solid state amps sound considerably better than others. Here's the question for you high-level amp gurus out there - what specific design/circuit/component aspects make the difference between a great sounding solid state amp and a mediocre one? With tubes I generally have a feel for design aspects like cascading gain stages for crunch, "sagging" rectifiers, saturating vs. hi-fi transformers, etc., but for solid state I don't have as good a feel for it, partly because theres little serious discussion of the topic. As far as I can tell, if you like solid state you just buy the one you like and are done with it. I suspect that solid state amps, like tubed amps, might respond well to some tweaking, and would like input on things to try, or at least why some sound better than others (so I know what design elements to look for in future purchases). I'm particularly interested in older, straightforward designs like old Peaveys, Rolands, Polytones, and Yamahas for this discussion, not so much digital stuff.

:banana - after all that typing I needed a banana, man.

You might want to hit these people with your question

http://www.ssguitar.com/

Tube amps are so superior that most players feel the need to hook up at least one ss overdrive/distortion stomp box in front of their amp. Funny, no?

[Suproman77]

tubes

Actually, that's true. Ever hear a Music Man amp? Half SS, half tubes and they sound great.

[googoobaby]

Looking at the ssguitar.com site, there was a link to an excellent book on SS guitar amp design:
http://www.thatraymond.com/downloads/solidstate_guitar_amplifiers_teemu_kyttala_v1.0.pd f

[doc]

Thanks for referencing that book and forum, as I think many who are interested enough to read this thread might find them interesting. I had already downloaded the book. I should join that forum, just haven't yet.

[Tone_Terrific]

Thanks for referencing that book and forum, as I think many who are interested enough to read this thread might find them interesting.

+1.
Another place to go to clutter up my tiny brain.:BOUNCE

[Rattle&Hum]

+1 Guitar Player

Also, the application of the amp for the guitar & music style is a huge factor. As with anything, one must carefully select the right tool for the job. Using the right speaker usually helps.

Generally, the clipping of transistors, op-amps or other devices used to obtain 'distortion' is very uniform and responds consistently with less dependency on the input signal than tubes.

When a transistor, diode, op-amp, etc. clips, it clips - i.e. processes a signal beyond its rated capacity - it will exhibit at consistent response until the signal is within the designed operating levels. Tube response will vary as the input signal increases or decreases - thus yielding a a slightly more dynamic effect. Solid state amps that claim tube-like performance have circuits designed to simulate this varying response.

Engineers generally prefer SS for its predictability and efficiency. Musicians prefer tubes for the 'feel'. I'm sure there's also a psychological element to it, too. Tubes sound better because they're... tubes.

[wildschwein]

Peavey Transtube series, preferably the black and silver models made in the late 90s. Newer ones are still okay but not quite as good. I loved my first Studio Pro 112 so much I just went and scooped up another. You won't find a better sounding solid state amp for mildly distorted blues and rock tones especially if you change out the speakers. The clean channel is also very impressive and really does enter into Fender territory. I won't be going back to valves.

I hope all you SS haters just keep on hating and I'll be happy to pick up bargains on Peavey Transtubes online and in Hock/Pawn shops.

[johndara]

.......or Albert King.


.......or Les Paul

I've seen Les use a Trademark 60 live and it sounded great. Granted he was using it for more of a jazzier tone. I use one for smaller gigs and I get tons of compliments on my tone. I just throw a tubescreamer type pedal in front for solos and im set. Very underrated amp in my opinion.