More on Page guitars please… from Terry McInturff

[prakashananda]

First of all I have thank Terry McInturff for graciously sharing an anecdote about his meeting with Jimmy Page when going to deliver a guitar. It is a thrill to read about the meeting and the observations of Page's setup. Here is that post from a previous thread about playing star's guitars. Terry, if you've got anything additional to share about Jimmy's #1 guitar (or anything else from that meeting!) - it would be most appreciated. I feel greedy for asking - but you offered! (And yes, the one without the extra switches under the pickguard, the one that you say he had a preference for, is #1. This is also the guitar that the Gibson model is based on and is pretty well established to be a '59.) Here is the original post:

You are very welcome.

The only chance that I have had to actually play and to measure Jim's touring guitars ( such as they were a number of years ago) was under a bit of hurry and duress. I did play every guitar that he had out on that particular tour ,but we initially hooked up just a few hours before showtime and thus there was not as much time for Binkey (his tech), Jim and I to go over the guitars to any tremendously analytical degree; we spent the majority of the time chatting.

However, I did make measurements of his two old LP Std necks, but I did not really want to measure any of the others (we were all of us hungry, dinner was what I needed and they were hungry too. I do remember that I was starving!).

I do not know which guitar that you refer to as his " number one"..Page fans will, no doubt, know which of the two..the '58 or the '59...has the hidden button/switches under the pickguard....all that I can say is that whichever one of those two that does not have those switches is the one that I was asked to emulate as regards the neck carve.

Anyway, Jimmy checked out the original Taurus prototype (whomever owns that guitar has a bit of history, the same guitar I sent to Guitar Player Magazine and was awarded an Editor's Pick Award for it) and Jim wanted the exact same guitar but with the neck carve of that non-fancy-switched LP Std that I am talking about.

I think that it was the 1959? Sorry if I dissapoint, food and conversation being more important at the time.

Overview of Jimmy's '58 and '59 LP Std necks if you are interested

1) Neither neck conforms to any thickness/profile shape that one would associate with an LP Std from those respective years. It is not a modest difference, it is huge.

Visually, it was virtually impossible to tell that the finish on the backs of the necks was not original....

I will not go into the Page guitars in thier entirety at this time (if anyone is THAT interested, start a new thread and ask me to go into detail, I will do so, but, until then..)

...suffice it to say that the finish on the necks was as heavily checked...translucent, not transparent...as the rest of the finish on the guitars. So, I asked Jim who had shaved the necks...they were THIN....not too different than the '61 LP/SG Special that I used to have...

I did not notice if the serial numbers were still there or not...(c'mon..I am there to work, no time to be going over everything, especially if the other parties had no interest in such things, and they did not). Thin and fairly flat. And whippy. Jim had to think a moment and then said (I paraphrase..."I seem to recall that I had someone in London do that a long time ago".) But he did have a preference, it was definitely the guitar without the little buttons under the pickguard.

1) The necks had both been re-carved to a much thinner profile than any '58 or '59 that I have ever experienced. "Totally wrong" for either of those years, yet as thinner as it is, it is "totally wrong" for a typical 1960 neck...it was in the neighborhood for my old '60 ES 345, but not quite. It is very similiar to one of the four '67 SG Juniors that I have measured and recorded in my log...not the thinnest of those four. It was just the way somebody re-carved it that part of the workday in some repairshop.....

The neck shape is not perfectly consistant along the length of the neck, but if one were a fan of thinner necks, it is very comforatable. There's no talking Jim into a fat neck (none of the touring gtrs had a stout neck).

2) The "fave neck" had really low, worn down, wide frets on it..I did not notice if it had been refretted (we were hungry!) but...I DID measure the fretwire ( I think I would have noticed a refret so this is more evidence that it was the '59...altho it's hard to imagine that the original frets would have lasted that long..but, whatever..)

Suffice it to say that I've had to use Dunlop 6130 on his TCM necks...and then grind them down, grind them down and then crown them. When I did the first one, I freaked out a little bit because I had gotten used to sanding maybe .002" max off of the frets in order to level them, and now I had to grind away, like I did when I was learning how to fret back in the '70's. He wants his frets to feel the same as the old worn-down ones that I measured that evening. He does not mind them being rounded, it is the hieght that matters.

3) Setup is with .009-.042. The guitars are setup with LOW action....it will buzz when played by any of us mere mortals. That's a big part of his sound...really low, wide frets, .009 guage strings, super-low action, and he uses (the last time I asked him) a now-defunct type of super-thin nylon pick...really flappy and thin.

4) I did not take any heed of the weight of any of the guitars...we three were sitting around and I could take measurements with calipers but I do not habitually carry a scale! The two '50's Stds did not call attention to themselves. weight-wise...it was normal for an LP of that era or I would have noticed, ie around 8.5 lbs or so.

It was a noisy environment not suited to judging the acoustic sound of solidbody electric guitars. All that I could do was to put an ear against the side of the upper bout and to play a few open chords like I often do ( I prefer to take them into the small bathroom at my shop...a great sounding little room!). Nothing struck me as being particularly one-way-or-the-other...I could not really tell.

If anyone wants more info regarding any of these "Stars guitars" that I have played I can write more, but I do not want to hog this thread. Start a new thread asking me for more info if you wish.

[gassyndrome]

Very cool :AOK

[GuitarKidd]

That explains something...

There was a picture of Jimmy in Guitar World, i think it was GW, and he must have his hand somewhere around the 8th fret. And he has his thumb wrapped around the front of the neck and is holding his thumb down with his index finger as if he was trying to bar that hole fret.

I looked at that picture and thought, my god, this man must have huge hands. I tried to duplicate the fret hand posistion and there was no way I could to it on my ESP or my Agile LP copy.

But that explains it. If his necks have been cut down that would certainly help.

[swimrunner]

I feel as though the "thin pick" usage is no surprise.

[prakashananda]

I feel as though the "thin pick" usage is no surprise.

Well, yeah. Firstly it makes a lot of sense considering the action and slinky strings. He is also known to use 8s, so factor that in with all of the above. I had heard that he uses Herco picks - the grey ones. They are kind of a medium pick but do have a lot of give. I talked to one of the guys at RS guitarworks once though when I was having my guitar "page-ified" by them, and he told me that he had a pick from Jimmy from back in the day and that that pick was a lot thinner than the current Herco grays. SO... either the Herco's got thicker, or he was using the thinner ones, which are now also available and are a gold color. I haven't tried these yet but I've been using the grey Herco's for years now and at least for me, found a big part of the Page sound and vibe, especially combined with light strings and action. They are also cool because they are real easy to hang onto. My theory has always been that that is why he got into them in the first place. They have their own sound, but it's kind of a cheesy sound. Your not going to sit and A/B picks and go "OH the Herco's sound AWESOME!". They sound like cheap plastic but in just the right way. All above is just IME. Your mileage may vary...

[paintguy]

Cool stuff!!!

I love to read anything about Jimmy Page and his Les Paul's.

Thanks for posting and thanks to Terry for a great accounting of his time with Jimmy and his guitars.

When did Terry actually post this?

[prakashananda]

Cool stuff!!!

I love to read anything about Jimmy Page and his Les Paul's.

Thanks for posting and thanks to Terry for a great accounting of his time with Jimmy and his guitars.

When did Terry actually post this?

Terry's post is on this page of the thread:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=236469&page=10

[teleblaster]

Very very cool!:dude

[codeorama]

Thanks for posting this, I missed it the first time around... Great read.

[danelectro]

These photos were taken by a member on the Les Paul Forum. JPP245 is one of the Custom Jimmy Page reissues. The neck on Jimmy's #1 was measured and replicated on these models.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/dynasonic/LPF/JimmyPageModel-NeckComparisonb.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/dynasonic/LPF/JimmyPageModel-NeckComparisonc.jpg

[prakashananda]

These photos were taken by a member on the Les Paul Forum. JPP245 is one of the Custom Jimmy Page reissues. The neck on Jimmy's #1 was measured and replicated on these models.

Thanks for posting these again. I remember seeing them a while back and couldn't find them again. It really makes you wonder if someone wasn't thinking "Jimmy Page" when they came up with the Classic's unique neck profile. I only recently found out that the "slim taper '60's" profile that Gibson refers to as used on the R0's and Standard's are VERY different. Funny because I hated it when it came out and now I'm wishing Gibson offered it as an option on other guitars. Well, I guess I'll just have to get a Page CA!

[Terry McInturff]

Those pics of the LP necks are just great!
I have no doubt that Gibson did a superb job of copying the neck profile on Jim's '59 neck. Gibson can scan the shape of a neck into thier computer that guides the CNC...they also make a physical mold of the neck that they want to copy. It is very accurate, I am sure.

The only thing that I see is that the color is different from the original...if my memory serves me well. Remember...his necks were recarved many years ago. I do not remember seeing any trace of cherry color on the backs of the necks or on the fretboard binding. The neck was basically brownish and as heavily checked as the rest of the guitar. I do not recall the color of the back of the headstock, not wether the serial number was still intact.

The '59 was notable due to the vast amount of finish checking as well as extreme fading of the reds. The finish was checked to the point that the finish could only be called translucent. There was very little color left.

When I watched How The West Was Won I of course saw that guitar in it's younger days and there was a striking difference in the 'burst.

[surfshack]

Those pics of the LP necks are just great!
I have no doubt that Gibson did a superb job of copying the neck profile on Jim's '59 neck. Gibson can scan the shape of a neck into thier computer that guides the CNC...they also make a physical mold of the neck that they want to copy. It is very accurate, I am sure.

The only thing that I see is that the color is different from the original...if my memory serves me well. Remember...his necks were recarved many years ago. I do not remember seeing any trace of cherry color on the backs of the necks or on the fretboard binding. The neck was basically brownish and as heavily checked as the rest of the guitar. I do not recall the color of the back of the headstock, not wether the serial number was still intact.

The '59 was notable due to the vast amount of finish checking as well as extreme fading of the reds. The finish was checked to the point that the finish could only be called translucent. There was very little color left.

When I watched How The West Was Won I of course saw that guitar in it's younger days and there was a striking difference in the 'burst.


did you play a little "Heartbreaker" or "Rock-n-Roll" on it?

[Terry McInturff]

did you play a little "Heartbreaker" or "Rock-n-Roll" on it?

No. I just did my little routine that I usually do that is not musical but rather a way of getting to know a guitar in short order.

Left to my own devices I'd certainly have played a famous riff or two!

[prakashananda]

The only thing that I see is that the color is different from the original...if my memory serves me well. Remember...his necks were recarved many years ago. I do not remember seeing any trace of cherry color on the backs of the necks or on the fretboard binding. The neck was basically brownish and as heavily checked as the rest of the guitar. I do not recall the color of the back of the headstock, not wether the serial number was still intact.

The '59 was notable due to the vast amount of finish checking as well as extreme fading of the reds. The finish was checked to the point that the finish could only be called translucent. There was very little color left.

When I watched How The West Was Won I of course saw that guitar in it's younger days and there was a striking difference in the 'burst.

Comparing to a modern Gibson finish color, would you say it's more like a Honeyburst? It looks more like that to me in person from what I remember (at a distance of course!)

Also, if I remember correctly, someone credible on the LPF said that the serial #'s on that guitar was long gone.

[Terry McInturff]

Comparing to a modern Gibson finish color, would you say it's more like a Honeyburst? It looks more like that to me in person from what I remember (at a distance of course!)

Also, if I remember correctly, someone credible on the LPF said that the serial #'s on that guitar was long gone.
I'm housecleaning today so I can pop in and answer Q's for the next 2 hours or so.

As for the color, that guitar was very subdued in color...there was a vague light tan left of the 'burst...and again the crazed finish on the top really blocked out alot of anything that was underneath it...it was pretty dull in appearance. So...a vague "ghost" of a 'burst, one that would not really belong to any of the various descriptions...maybe, a very faded "teaburst"...but even the wood grain was hard to see under all of that checking. I was not in very good direct lighting at the time...in Binkey's guitar pit at around 3pm on a July afternoon.

I do not remember as much about the '58, as I was being re-directed back to the '59 as being the one to inspect the most.

[danelectro]

There is not much color left in the burst anymore.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/dynasonic/LPF/JimmyPages1a1.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/dynasonic/LPF/JimmyPages1creduce.jpg

[JimH]

Amazing stuff Terry - thanks. I PM'd you a while back about your LP type guitars and the resonant frequencies of their tops - you were very helpful. To see stuff like this just blows my mind!

[prakashananda]

There is not much color left in the burst anymore.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p81/dynasonic/LPF/JimmyPages1a1.jpg


This one sure looks A LOT like a Lemonburst to me...!

[randy alameda]

When Jimmy was in Albq. in 1972, he bought every Herco flex 50 (gold) in the store (Wild West Music), oh, I almost forgot, he also bought a '59 Burst too!
:BluesBros

[prakashananda]

When Jimmy was in Albq. in 1972, he bought every Herco flex 50 (gold) in the store (Wild West Music), oh, I almost forgot, he also bought a '59 Burst too!
:BluesBros

HOLY CRAP!!! - Are you serious, man? You know, I've been told by someone that had one of his old pics that is was REAL thin. And the 75's ain't so thin, so maybe it's the 50's right? Bought a bunch of 'em, haven't tried 'em yet...

I had observed in TSRTS movie that it looked like he had the Herco 75's, it looked like a grey pic - but I gotta give that another look.

Whoo hoo! Thanks for posting this man I had not heard this before...:dude

[The Golden Boy]

I've used the Herco 75s for years.

However, all the time that I've used them, they've been a Dunlop product.

I find there's a lot of difference in the play of a lot of the Herco 75s- although they may be the same thickness, the give is different from pick to pick, and I prefer the stiffer ones.

I've got an OLD Herco 40 that's gold. Too thin for my tastes.

[Terry McInturff]

His tech showed me Jim's picks and begged me to find more. It was a Herco, I think...but it was white and extremely thin.

[prakashananda]

His tech showed me Jim's picks and begged me to find more. It was a Herco, I think...but it was white and extremely thin.

Wow Terry - and thanks for chiming in and again for inspiring the whole thread!!!!

OK, so know we know for sure - THIN. But white.... the plot thickens:rotflmao

Anyone ever see a white Herco before?

[rastus]

As to the Hercos- I have never used any other pick other than Herco nylons-mostly because of the grip. I plainly remember spying on Pagey in the little Custom Shop room at the Gibson plant on Massman Drive back when I worked there (he was in to have a ground fixed on his doubleneck-he called it "the Aerial" I guess because it picked up interference like an antenna), as well as approving the neck carve and case/lining for the upcoming Page signature model. I was spying with the blessing of 2 of the guys (you'd know em if I named em) that worked in there handling everything from prototypes to artist guitars to custom orders. Page used a Flex 50 as well as a white 35 mm Herco, but I saw no gray 75's. To this day I prefer the 50 and have always gotten a kick out of having already using the pick my favorite guitar slinger used even before I knew he used it. BTW, the LP classic, as well as reintroducing the "60" neck carve was the idea of JT Riboloff, a fantastic fellow that designed the Classic Les Paul, which in my opinion (along with Slash) not only helped save Gibson, but also helped with strong sales that allowed stellar growth. Funny, but at the time I belive that Tom Murphy and I were the only ones in the whole place that jonsed for a "fat" 50's style neck. Most thought our standard "59 carve" was stodgy, most wanted the slim taper, wide flat "60" style neck. It sure sold like gangbusters. I recall that the 62 SG reissue was changed to a 61 reissue with the introduction of that neck, and that the (new at the time) Firebird 5 also got that carve. Most the players coming through the plant wanted that fast carve, but I still love the old standard size "59" carve. And Herco flex 50's are still my fave-I keep a gross on hand! If you want real Page tone though, the .009's and a white flex 35 are where it's at, but you will more than likely need to order a gross to get them. I find the nylon on a similar size Dunlop is nothing like the coarser and more brittle feeling Herco. BTW. Page was super nice-letting the guys paw all over his doubleneck, 59 LP, and even his Transformance Les Paul that he was just picking up. He even ate lunch in the cafeteria and treated all of us as nicely as if we were his best pals. He is still a big hero to me.

[esoteric pete]

what a great thread!

[prakashananda]

As to the Hercos...



Dude - thanks for posting this! Yes - awesome thread! Info great anecdotes - what more do you want?

:RoCkIn:banana

[The Golden Boy]

I find the nylon on a similar size Dunlop is nothing like the coarser and more brittle feeling Herco.

You really think so?

I use the Herco 75s- but I don't think it's inherently because of the nylon... I can't work with the .77 or whatever Dunlop, I'll deal with the 88 Dunlop, but would prefer the 1.0 mm Dunlop. Whether that's just because I prefer the grip or what...

I use them for both bass and guitar.

I also REALLY dig the Brain picks by Snarling Dogs- I used to call them Cat's Tongues because the grippy stuff feels like a cat's tongue...

[prakashananda]

I find the nylon on a similar size Dunlop is nothing like the coarser and more brittle feeling Herco.

Oh yeah - meant to ask - now you mean the nylon on the Dunlop labeled picks - not the new herco's (which are also marketed by dunlop) right?

Do you find any difference between older herco's and newer ones? Also, do you have a source for the 35's?

[Garygtr]

I remember reading on more than one occasion that Page used the Herco Flex 75s, not the 50s; however, this info is from old interviews/articles from the 70's. I have also heard that the newer Dunlop-marketed Hercos are stiffer than the old ones, but I don't know if that's true or not. I have a fairly large collection of picks I've amassed over the years, and I have some Flex 50s that are from late 70's-early 80's I think. I don't know if they're any different because I haven't bought any 50s in years because I had more than I needed. The 75s I have have all been bought within the last few years. When did Dunlop start marketing (manufacturing?) Herco picks?

[prakashananda]

I remember reading on more than one occasion that Page used the Herco Flex 75s, not the 50s; however, this info is from old interviews/articles from the 70's. I have also heard that the newer Dunlop-marketed Hercos are stiffer than the old ones, but I don't know if that's true or not. I have a fairly large collection of picks I've amassed over the years, and I have some Flex 50s that are from late 70's-early 80's I think. I don't know if they're any different because I haven't bought any 50s in years because I had more than I needed. The 75s I have have all been bought within the last few years. When did Dunlop start marketing (manufacturing?) Herco picks?

Dunno, but here is a link. http://www.jimdunlop.com/index.php?page=products/pip&id=164&pmh=products/herco

Hey man I'd be glad to send you some new 50's and you give me a comparison to an oldie...

[Garygtr]

Dunno, but here is a link. http://www.jimdunlop.com/index.php?page=products/pip&id=164&pmh=products/herco

Hey man I'd be glad to send you some new 50's and you give me a comparison to an oldie...

PM'ed, thanks!

Here's a quote from the GP article from '77 by Steve Rosen:


SR: What kind of picks and strings do you use? JP: Herco heavy-gauge nylon picks and Ernie Ball Super Slinky strings

He doesn't specifically say Flex 75s or grey/silver ones, so maybe the Flex 50 to him is heavy. Nylon picks were traditionally pretty floppy, and the Flex 50 could be considered heavy in comparison.
Aah, who knows? I love over-analyzing these things :rolleyes:

[The Golden Boy]

PM'ed, thanks!

Here's a quote from the GP article from '77 by Steve Rosen:


SR: What kind of picks and strings do you use? JP: Herco heavy-gauge nylon picks and Ernie Ball Super Slinky strings

He doesn't specifically say Flex 75s or grey/silver ones, so maybe the Flex 50 to him is heavy. Nylon picks were traditionally pretty floppy, and the Flex 50 could be considered heavy in comparison.
Aah, who knows? I love over-analyzing these things :rolleyes:

You might want to check the 1986 interview with Tim Martens- it was in the Guitar World special Jimmy Page issue. I'm pretty sure it was 1986 and pretty sure it was Tim Martens who was Page's tech at the time. I do recall somewhere about the Flex 75s being Page's choice somewhere in either that interview- but definitely in that issue.

[Garygtr]

You might want to check the 1986 interview with Tim Martens- it was in the Guitar World special Jimmy Page issue. I'm pretty sure it was 1986 and pretty sure it was Tim Martens who was Page's tech at the time. I do recall somewhere about the Flex 75s being Page's choice somewhere in either that interview- but definitely in that issue.

Actually, now that I think about it, I know I read comments from his tech somewhere (it might well be the '77 GP) where he says that Jimmy uses Herco Flex 75s and "devours them by the boxful". Now I wish I would have kept that issue :(

Of course-duh-here's a thought: Maybe his preference has gone back and forth over the years. Imagine that!