Strat Vibrato Setup Question

[John Thigpen]

I have a parts strat with a Callaham vintage bridge that I'm tweaking the setup on. I rarely use the vibrato tailpiece, but that may be because I can't ever get it setup to my liking. My primary concern is that I don't want the strings to go flat when I do pedal steel type bends. Currently, I have the claw set pretty tight with four springs, so that the tailpiece lays flat on the body and the strings don't go out of tune on bends. The downside is that the vibrato is very tight and not user friendly. When I loosened the claw to let the vibrato float a little, the strings went out of tune on bends.

Has anyone found a pretty good compromise on the setup? Would five springs and a looser claw get me closer than three springs and a tighter claw? Thanks.

John

[trower]

There are a few options if your guitar is one that hates to stay in tune. A Trem Locking system would take allot pain away but some can be a bit to install, other pretty easy, short of that, lock & wind your strings at the post, locking tuners, throughly stretching your string by tugging on them before and after tuning, graphite at the nut etc..

[RvChevron]

My strat has 10-46. I use 3 springs. I adjust the claw so that the trem sit flat on the body and when I bend a string, the other stay "relatively" in tune. The trem action is much less stiff than some.

Try 3 springs and adjust the claw to your liking.

I also raise the middle 4 trem mounting screws just high enough so the screw heads don't contact the trem plate. The outter two just low enough to touch or "kiss" the plate while letting the plate to move sideway easily.

[stevel]

Has anyone found a pretty good compromise on the setup? Would five springs and a looser claw get me closer than three springs and a tighter claw? Thanks.

John

John, I was thinking about this same problem yesterday when restringing. I haven't full tested it out, but here's my thought:

If the bridge plate is angled up, then it's going to be easier to pull forward than if it's angled backwards. Now, flat is about as angled backwards as you can get (on a 2 screw tailpiece you can raise the screws and actually make it lean backwards, but then of course you have to adjust all the saddle heights down).

Since you've already got the bridge flat, it should be as "resistant to giving" as it can be. But, something you can do is tighten the claw more than you need - that is, pull it in until the bridge is flush, and then give the screws on the claw an extra quarter or half turn etc.

My thinking is, given the same springs, if they are already stretched out a bit, they will be less stretchy than in their "normal" balanced-to-string-tension position. This puts more tension than your normal floating setup on the springs side, so when you bend, you've got a little "buffer" there.

Then, in theory, it shouldn't be any harder to use the bar, because you're already using it with X springs and nothing's changed, except that the springs are already a little stretched. Basically this means it's like bending your tremolo from 1/4 to 1/2 depressed, rather than 0 to 1/4 depressed when floating. Since the bar gives you more leverage than string bends pull on the bridge with, this seems to be a viable solution if you like the bridge flat.

The only problem I see is that on your release, the bridge will come back to flush a little harder (since it will have more tension than needed to get to that position and actually wants to go "past" flush) which might make it "slam" down on the body. That might be annoying until you get used to it.

Speaking of getting used to it, I don't do whammy bar dives or anything like that anymore, but I do use the tremolo for vibrato (think Bigsby tailpieces) effects, so I have mine floating with 5 springs. Since 5 springs are less stretched out when balanced with string tension than 3 strings are, it seems to me, that while it's "tighter" through it's travel, it's not at all hard to move. 3 springs always seemed "too floppy" for me.

I've also found out there are apparently different springs with different tensions on them out there. So you might experiment with 3 springs, 3 with outside ones angled (which stretches those farther), 4 springs, 5 springs, or springs of different initial tension.

HTH, and good luck,

Steve

[walterw]

unfortunately, none of that is likely to change the op's original problem, which is that tight enough to keep bends from lifting = too tight to push the bar down.

what will change this for the better is setting the guitar up so that the saddles are closer to the plate, regardless of actual string height off the frets. this will make both bending and trem dipping easier, because it reduces the string's leverage over the bridge.

you can do this by removing any shims from under the 21st fret, or if there's none, adding a thin one under the 16th fret, then resetting the string height to where you had it before.

[Dana Olsen]

I agree with Walter.

Sadly, the trem on a Strat is an either/ or thing w/ respect to double stops that don't detune. It's (the claw, that is) either tight enough so that it doesn't detune - then the trem arm is really tight and not user friendly. Or, it's set to float, and double stops detune.

The Wilkinson locking bridge totally solves the problem, but it's no longer available in the US. It may be available from somebody in England, I don't know. When you grab the trem arm, it becomes active and works like a floating trem. When you let go of the bar, it locks, so double stops stay perfectly in tune. It's a great idea, the execution is good, and there are patent probs with it being sold in the US - somebody , I don't remember who, is blocking Wilkinson from selling them here in the US.

I think the folks who own the patent in the US have stopped Wilkinson, though they do not manufacture one themselves, they DO own the rights to the design in the US.

Good Luck, it's just a compromise situation I guess, Dana O.

[walterw]

didn't know about the legal nonsense, but +1 to that trem system. the bar would hang straight to the floor and lock the bridge in place, then when you grabbed the bar and pulled it parallel in order to use it, the trem would unlock and become floating. letting it go would allow it to swing down and re-engage the lock again.

[Eagle1]

The patents are held by Kahler in the auto latch (out of production ) and Steinberger with the Jam trem and Trans trem . The Wilkinson VS100 convertible although out of production for over ten years is still available from Fret King (Trev himself) BUT it is so sensitive it requires constant tweaking to remain set up to lock in tune .(the main reason it was discontinued.)

[douglasamps]

If you want your bridge to float..there is obviously going to be some compromise with your playing technique and the amount of de-tuning with string bends.I would recommend trying some basic thinks before you proceed with anything else.
First,back off the tension on all strings,not completely but enough to allow the bridge to have some resistance from string pull.
Then remove all springs..back off the six hold-down screws on the bridge plate allowing the plate to tilt forward so that the leading angled edge sits flush with the body. Make sure that all of the screws are high enough so as not to restrict the forward tilt of the bridge plate.
One by one, tighten the screws back down to the point where they the screw heads are JUST starting to push the bridge back down.Now the bridge is free from any restrictions from the screws and you are not fighting a bridge that is screwed down too far and over compensating by increasing spring tension.
At this point, the number of springs and amount of tension is really determined by your choice of string gauge. Say .010 to .046,
I would start with 3. As a personal preference, I hook to the middle 3 claws and fan them out to the far ends and middle holes in the trem .block. If you want to float your trem.,a place to start (RE: Spring tension) is where the guitar is tuned to pitch and with the claw pulled forward, the back of the bridge plate bottom surface sits up approx. 3/16' up off the body. This height will give you the ability to bend up a semi-tone with the bar and this semi -bend will work with most fingering/neck positions.
If you like this, you may have to tweak the springs.Anything more than a semi-tone sounds a bit wonky..If you want the plate to lay flat you will probably have to add a fourth spring.This is only a preference that I am suggesting but this set-up has served me well over the years. It also allows the low E to pitch down a full octave.I have the standard trem. bridge/block and stock tuners and the only time the guitar starts to go out of tune is when the strings start suffering from fatigue.
If on the other hand you want to lock down the trem...a wooden block cut in a wedge shape to fit between the trem, block and body in the back cavity.
One other tip is to scrape a little pencil lead(graphite) in the nut notches when re-stringing.
Might be worth 20 minutes of set-up time...ya' never know, Cheers ,Doug..:BEER

[Dana Olsen]

The patents are held by Kahler in the auto latch (out of production ) and Steinberger with the Jam trem and Trans trem . The Wilkinson VS100 convertible although out of production for over ten years is still available from Fret King (Trev himself) BUT it is so sensitive it requires constant tweaking to remain set up to lock in tune .(the main reason it was discontinued.)Thanks Eagle -

Mark Robinson has one on a partscaster he built, actually, two of them on two partscasters. Mark's very mechanically inclined. Once he got them right, he only has to adjust them a couple times a year - I guess he's got the hang of it.

It's a great solution. I truly wish someone would 'perfect' this systm and make it available to guitar players in general. It's a truly visionary idea.

Thanks, Dana O.

[Austinrocks]

here is pretty good fixed bridge tremolo system, I call it a locking tremolo, Rusty Bickfords Trem-king, don's have it on a guitar, played it a couple of guitar shows, he is in Ft Worth, so local for me.

http://www.tremking.com/faq.html

[Bob V]

Hipshot makes a gadget called a Trem Setter that goes in place of the center spring. The way it works is it does not exert any pressure until you dive, or until you bend a string and exert more pressure so the bridge plate wants to come forward. So when it's adjusted properly (read the instructions over and over and watch the installation video on the Hipshot site, then read again - everything they say is there for a reason...), anyway - when it's adjusted properly it will keep the other strings in tune when you bend a string. So Country style double-stop bends are possible.

You can feel something happening as you work the trem arm, like a slight klunk as it passes neutral, but you get used to it and it's a small price to pay for the tuning stability. You can pluck your open E string, let it ring, and bend the third string as much as you want - the open E won't go out of tune. I have my strat strung with .010 strings and I use three springs plus the Trem Setter (they recommend only two springs with the trem setter on stock .009's).

By the way there are entire threads devoted to the Trem Setter. Love it or hate it thing.

[John Thigpen]

Thanks for all the responses. I was wondering if the trem-setter would be worth a try. I'll try tweaking it a bit more when I get the chance.

John

[RvChevron]

Thanks for all the responses. I was wondering if the trem-setter would be worth a try. I'll try tweaking it a bit more when I get the chance.

John

The tremsetter will only make it stiff, but will let the trem to float to allow pulling up.

[walterw]

the tremsetter basically puts a "detent" in the travel of the trem arm. when the bridge is resting in this "notch", it's a bit more resistant to dipping on string bends. the notch is not "deep" enough (the spring pressure of the tremsetter isn't strong enough) to keep it in tune when a string breaks, though. it also eliminates flutter and unfortunately, subtle vibrato shimmers.

[Austinrocks]

steve vai has a pretty good, I think description of the trem setter, he uses it on Evo 1

http://www.vai.com/Machines/guitarpages/EVO/hardware_frameset.html

for some reason it goes to a spot a couple before the trem setter description, so click next a couple of times.

[Eagle1]

The Ibanez tremsetter is discontinued and because Steve uses one the Ebay going rate is silly.ESP make on that is like one half of the Ibanez but it is not for sale in the USA because of patents . Once again Ebay is the place to get one . Don't bother with the Hipshot as it seriously affects the feel of your trem and not in a good way.

[burner]

Thanks for all the responses. I was wondering if the trem-setter would be worth a try. I'll try tweaking it a bit more when I get the chance.

John

I've never had very much luck with them.
As mentioned above the cons outweigh the pros.

[John Thigpen]

I would use the vibrato pretty subtly, so the tremsetter may be counter productive.

I did tweak it a bit, and it will stay in tune during bends. It's OK but not great on the responsiveness. I realize that the fact that the bar is loose is one of the things bothering me. Any suggestions on tightening that up, other than screwing it all the way in? I don't have a spring in there..maybe that would help?

John

[ncndude]

Here is a video of a tremsetter being installed on a fender american standard. You can see how it is installed and what it does.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvl0fLOzwi8

[Bob V]

I realize that the fact that the bar is loose is one of the things bothering me. Any suggestions on tightening that up, other than screwing it all the way in? I don't have a spring in there..maybe that would help?

John

I find the spring will keep the bar from dangling, but it doesn't eliminate the slop in the threads. Try a wrap of plumber's teflon tape dope around the threads of the bar before you screw it in - you don't have to cover the whole threaded area, just a bit at the top. Screw it in until it's tight then back off one turn. Won't wobble or dangle.

[Crunchyriff]

I had a hipshot tremsetter in a Strat Plus. It sucked & I removed it..

[Austinrocks]

if your not screwing the bar down all the way, could be that you don't like the angle when its tight, I bend the bar to the angle that I like using a bench vice, the angle they come stock really is hard to use.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/austinrocks/whammybarModified.jpg

[mgarrison99]

My strat has 10-46. I use 3 springs. I adjust the claw so that the trem sit flat on the body and when I bend a string, the other stay "relatively" in tune. The trem action is much less stiff than some.

Try 3 springs and adjust the claw to your liking.

I also raise the middle 4 trem mounting screws just high enough so the screw heads don't contact the trem plate. The outter two just low enough to touch or "kiss" the plate while letting the plate to move sideway easily.
RvChevron,

With only two screws (the outside ones) only holding the bridge plate to the body, aren't you concerned that the tension from the strings might actually strip out the two screws? Maybe I'm not understanding your approach, but I'd like to try it.

Thanks

[RvChevron]

RvChevron,

With only two screws (the outside ones) only holding the bridge plate to the body, aren't you concerned that the tension from the strings might actually strip out the two screws? Maybe I'm not understanding your approach, but I'd like to try it.

Thanks

I'm just following Callaham's and other tech book's instruction on setting up the trem. The middle four screws are still sharing duty of letting the trem to pivot. I've been doing this for years and haven't had any problem.

The outside two screws don't hold down tight at all, just enough so the trem plate doesn't move up and down but sideway and back and forth.

Some actually set all six screws not touching the plate at all.

I have actually seen a few strat trems even "without" the middle four screws in place and they seemed to work fine.:crazy

Try it and see if you like the trem action. It won't hurt anything.

[RvChevron]

Found a page that explains and reviews pretty much all trem stabilizer devices on the market.

http://joe.emenaker.com/TremStabilizers/index.html

I'm interested in the Goldo Backbox now.

[Eagle1]

ESP is the one.

[HoboMan]

The "Tremol-No" should solve your problem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiZnipHc1ec

http://www.tremol-no.com/default.asp

[Eagle1]

The "Tremolo-No" should solve your problem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiZnipHc1ec

http://www.tremol-no.com/default.asp

And add a whole load of its own.

[Monroe]

I had a hipshot tremsetter in a Strat Plus. It sucked & I removed it..
+1. I did the same thing with my Strat Plus.
Another important thing that I don't think has been addressed is that no matter how you decide to have the bridge plate, floated or flat, your saddles should be as parallel to the body surface as possible when it's all done. If they are not, that's when you address the neck angle. Keeping the saddles fairly parallel to the body keeps the geometry right. Keep in mind the two "E" saddles will be parallel, and the inside four saddles will be a bit higher due to the radius.