Major Change In Emporium Use: Please Read!

[Dave Orban]

Lack of search might also make it tougher for people to find items for sale once they fall off the front page.They can still search using the Google, search, no...?

[OldSchool]

10-4..........I'm a supporting member from the past but I need to break out a check pronto.

Al

[mill1045]

Here is the flaw in this, Jon Doe(non-paying) can't efficiently search the forum(Google search sucks), there by reducing the the number of deals done, Thus reducing people who would pay to sell, they will go to eBay.

I vote for banner ads, and disable the ads for the paying members.

Loren

[chewynodoubt]

1. i paid my $12 for the emporium mainly. i think it's fair--i easily get that value out of it.

2. i didn't pay my $12 for the 'information'. certainly i gleen a ton of useful information others provide here--but i also try to provide it when i have something valuable to contribute to the discussion. a board is what people put into it.

3. i didn't pay my $12 to listen to pompous members get all elitist and disrespectful just because they paid more than me. wtf. you enact a new policy and then shout down anyone who has the slightest problem with it.

4. $12 is not alot of money. $12 x 30,000 IS alot of money. even if only 10% of the members actually contribute this--it's STILL alot of money. i have no clue what it costs to maintain this site--and the admins deserve every penny--but with this kind of money involved, i think it's more than acceptable to at least question how the money is being spent.

5. in the long run--i think the $12 will end up hurting the emporium. the thing that made the emporium as strong as it is--is the sheer volume of stuff there. the selection is huge--rivals ebay for the stuff i'm interested in. however, if only 10% of the members actually pay--that sheer loss of volume and selection will undoubtedly hurt the quality of the emporium. i hope this is not the case--i really do.

6. sorry about the numerical list, it's annoying i know. but i had alot of points to make and it just helped me stay focused.

I agree 110% with everything stated here, good luck, I got bashed hardcore last night for the same stuff

[chewynodoubt]

Here is the flaw in this, Jon Doe(non-paying) can't efficiently search the forum(Google search sucks), there by reducing the the number of deals done, Thus reducing people who would pay to sell, they will go to eBay.

I vote for banner ads, and disable the ads for the paying members.

Loren

brilliant

[Uma Floresta]

They can still search using the Google, search, no...?

Yes, but let's say you're looking for a Zvex Fuzz Factory. Wouldn't a Google search just bring up EVERY thread that mentions the Fuzz Factory?

[mill1045]

exactly

[Dave Orban]

Here is the flaw in this, Jon Doe(non-paying) can't efficiently search the forum(Google search sucks), there by reducing the the number of deals done, Thus reducing people who would pay to sell, they will go to eBay.

I vote for banner ads, and disable the ads for the paying members.

LorenI just did the Google search, and while it wasn't "great" it did not "suck," IMO.

Believe me, folks will either learn to live with Google search, OR, will figure out that it's worth the extra effort to manually search the Emporium, OR, they'll realize that 3-1/2 cents per day won't kill them.

And if NONE of those options make sense for them, I'm not sure how much I will actually miss them.

But that's just me. ;)

[Tom Gross]

Ummm....I understood that this was not a gear sale site.
It's a discussion site that, as a service to their members, hosts a for sale section.

IMHO, that is at the root of a lot of the problems of late.

[dkaplowitz]

I agree 110% with everything stated here, good luck, I got bashed hardcore last night for the same stuff
If you'd really gotten "bashed hardcore", why did you then donate 30 minutes after your first post threatening to leave over the changes? I wouldn't donate to a site where I got bashed hardcore in any kind of unfair way.

[12345678]

1. i paid my $12 for the emporium mainly. i think it's fair--i easily get that value out of it.

2. i didn't pay my $12 for the 'information'. certainly i gleen a ton of useful information others provide here--but i also try to provide it when i have something valuable to contribute to the discussion. a board is what people put into it.

3. i didn't pay my $12 to listen to pompous members get all elitist and disrespectful just because they paid more than me. wtf. you enact a new policy and then shout down anyone who has the slightest problem with it.

4. $12 is not alot of money. $12 x 30,000 IS alot of money. even if only 10% of the members actually contribute this--it's STILL alot of money. i have no clue what it costs to maintain this site--and the admins deserve every penny--but with this kind of money involved, i think it's more than acceptable to at least question how the money is being spent.

5. in the long run--i think the $12 will end up hurting the emporium. the thing that made the emporium as strong as it is--is the sheer volume of stuff there. the selection is huge--rivals ebay for the stuff i'm interested in. however, if only 10% of the members actually pay--that sheer loss of volume and selection will undoubtedly hurt the quality of the emporium. i hope this is not the case--i really do.

6. sorry about the numerical list, it's annoying i know. but i had alot of points to make and it just helped me stay focused.

I also agree 110% with this. I definitely feel the new "Pay to play" emporium is going to not only hurt the emporium but also hurt this site in general. Most people will turn to other forums that allow free use of their emporiums. I've been catching some flames for this attitude as well, but I think it only makes sense that TGP is going to see a serious decline in enthusiasm, especially in the short term. I know it costs money to run a website. I know TGP is a popular site and some people will pay. But, forgive my bluntness, this reeks of opportunism.

[LVC]

:agree with and support the new initiatives.

[Dave Orban]

Yes, but let's say you're looking for a Zvex Fuzz Factory. Wouldn't a Google search just bring up EVERY thread that mentions the Fuzz Factory?If you add "for sale" to the search string, it narrows it down considerably.


OR, folks could stop whining about how the internet should be free, and pony-up for the 3-1/2 cents per day.


OR, better still... start their own gear forum and see just how much fun it really can be... (and how "free" it ain't... :jo)


;)

[mill1045]

Dave, I'll give you me thinking on this. I am a non paying member, i don't want to pay. I think TGP is the best site for guitarists. I use the search feature, to look up exactly what I'm interested in or need. with out this function, i will probably find someplace else. Now you might not miss me or the others (no offense taken) but in the long run it hurts this communities potential. Bigger is not easier, but as far as information and thoughts go i think it is better. JMHO

Loren

[Dave Orban]

I also agree 110% with this. I definitely feel the new "Pay to play" emporium is going to not only hurt the emporium but also hurt this site in general. Most people will turn to other forums that allow free use of their emporiums. I've been catching some flames for this attitude as well, but I think it only makes sense that TGP is going to see a serious decline in enthusiasm, especially in the short term. I know it costs money to run a website. I know TGP is a popular site and some people will pay. But, forgive my bluntness, this reeks of opportunism.

I'm all in favor of the "serious decline" of certain types of users.

But that's just me. ;)

[mge80]

I also agree 110% with this. I definitely feel the new "Pay to play" emporium is going to not only hurt the emporium but also hurt this site in general. Most people will turn to other forums that allow free use of their emporiums. I've been catching some flames for this attitude as well, but I think it only makes sense that TGP is going to see a serious decline in enthusiasm, especially in the short term. I know it costs money to run a website. I know TGP is a popular site and some people will pay. But, forgive my bluntness, this reeks of opportunism.

I completely disagree, and based on the ratio of people sharing your opinion to the ones who like the change, I don't think this site is in trouble at all. Not at all. Serious decline? Doubtful.

[grego7]

Ummm....I understood that this was not a gear sale site.
It's a discussion site that, as a service to their members, hosts a for sale section.

IMHO, that is at the root of a lot of the problems of late.

Excellent post.

[Geetar_Will]

Happy to do it.

[The Last Rebel]

Dave, I'll give you me thinking on this. I am a non paying member, i don't want to pay. I think TGP is the best site for guitarists. I use the search feature, to look up exactly what I'm interested in or need. with out this function, i will probably find someplace else. Now you might not miss me or the others (no offense taken) but in the long run it hurts this communities potential. Bigger is not easier, but as far as information and thoughts go i think it is better. JMHO

Loren
So you're leaving over the search function? Pretty stupid if you ask me. The Google seach may not be as good, but you can still use it. I haven't become a contributing member yet simply becuase I don't have much money at all left over for extraneous things like this. Once I get some extra here or there, I'll contribute. I have no problem paying to use this site, it's provided me more than twelve dollars worth of info.

I haven't been bashed or insulted by any contributing members, because I'm not making a big fuss about it. If you'd just go along with the new rules, no one will bother you.

[MuseCafeChris]

I have no use for the search function or the emporiums, so the transition has been seamless for me!

[jtm622]

C'mon... Cheer up... there's still no charge for incessantly running our keyboards and lodging non-stop complaints about how TGP is run, right???

[Uma Floresta]

If you add "for sale" to the search string, it narrows it down considerably.


OR, folks could stop whining about how the internet should be free, and pony-up for the 3-1/2 cents per day.


OR, better still... start their own gear forum and see just how much fun it really can be... (and how "free" it ain't... :jo)


;)

That's assuming the seller happened to put "for sale" in the text of the post.

Nobody's whining, just discussing. No need for name calling.

If Ebay didn't let potential buyers use their search function, I don't think too many people would want to sell there. If you have to pay to sell your stuff, you deserve to get good exposure too.

The fact is, a cheap or not, a lot of people are going to start selling at HC, where you don't have to bother with fees, and you still get the same level of non-protection.

;)

[Dave Orban]

That's assuming the seller happened to put "for sale" in the text of the post.

Nobody's whining, just discussing. No need for name calling.

If Ebay didn't let potential buyers use their search function, I don't think too many people would want to sell there. If you have to pay to sell your stuff, you deserve to get good exposure too.

The fact is, a cheap or not, a lot of people are going to start selling at HC, where you don't have to bother with fees, and you still get the same level of non-protection.

;)And I wish them nothing but success. ;)

[Hiwatt Bob]

I'm all in favor of the "serious decline" of certain types of users.

But that's just me.

see, this is kind of what i'm talking about. i don't really want to accuse anyone of this--but alot of the comments seem to be about "keeping out the riff-raff". for some people, this change seems to be more about excluding people than about a pragmatic solution to fund the site.

[jimfog]

see, this is kind of what i'm talking about. i don't really want to accuse anyone of this--but alot of the comments seem to be about "keeping out the riff-raff". for some people, this change seems to be more about excluding people than about a pragmatic solution to fund the site.

No.....don't worry about it............all those comments are from Orban.

He's just a dick.......and that happened LONG before TGP!!

:rotflmao

[Uma Floresta]

see, this is kind of what i'm talking about. i don't really want to accuse anyone of this--but alot of the comments seem to be about "keeping out the riff-raff". for some people, this change seems to be more about excluding people than about a pragmatic solution to fund the site.

Absolutely.

[big mike]

see, this is kind of what i'm talking about. i don't really want to accuse anyone of this--but alot of the comments seem to be about "keeping out the riff-raff". for some people, this change seems to be more about excluding people than about a pragmatic solution to fund the site.

What members 'surmise' and what truly is the case, are 2 different things.

Brian and Scott are not trying to exclude anyone that abides by the rules,but simply not have to self fund the site at it's current expansion rate.

There was a similar uproar when ads were mentioned.

Can't make everyone happy.

[wstsidela]

Please add a poll to this thread. I see the same 5 people complaining.

FWIW I support the policy and I $upport TGP.

[KCWM]

of course, ebay makes money off of each transaction, far above the $12 fee that TGP is imposing.

The HC issue has been addressed.

[Bassomatic]

Wow. The complaining slays me. Pony up or shut up. Sheesh.

Yup.

[Rod]

Great way to go!! Very fair for everyone.... a great business plan..Thankx

[Matt F]

I again like the idea. I spend about the same amount of money to contribute at the Gold Member level as I do for 13 weeks of the newspaper.

I spend alot more time reading here over the course of a 12 month period as I do reading the newspaper for 13 weeks :messedup.

"I'm just sayin'"

Be cool :cool:


The emporium is just an added bonus.
MF

[Sonic Emergence]

Great Idea! It will only make this place better!

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

$12 to $50 is a bargin if you any amount at all of gear to sell. http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif Look how screwed up feebay is and how much they charge in fees. :mad: Anyway, that is part of my motivation for defending the new fees, and the other part is, there is some great information here and plenty of good folks to chat with. $1 a month isn't squat ! :YinYang I don't want to have to get up to kick anyone in teh head, so shape up ppl. http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif

[dk_ace]

I've been here quite a while now. I don't post much compared to others, but I have tried to contribute as much knowledge as I can and help as many of my fellow gearheads as possible. I saw the changes last night, and I have to admit I was pretty bummed out.

I totally understand the membership requirement to post in the emporium. I've grown tired of the new members that are here for buy/sell strictly. As a matter of fact, I usually won't do business with them because they get on my nerves. I also agree that those using this as an oppurtunity to avoid ebay fees should be contributing some money, however small, to keep the site running. I will be unloading some gear soon, and I have no problem paying a fee to have that privelege.

What I don't understand is the payment requirement for the search function. I've been here a long time and I contribute a lot. I'm sure my opinion really doesn't matter, but I don't think this was the right thing to do. They should have at least grandfathered members that had been here for a while into being able to continue using the search function.

I applaud the fee for sellers. I think the fee for using the search function is an oppurtunistic action that really disappoints me in the leadership of the site. I also think it may stunt TGP's growth, but maybe that is intended.

D

[CALI68]

I just paid for a gold membership and the giant weight of guilt is now off my back. I have gained tons of knowledge from this site as well as bought and sold tons of cool stuff in the emporium. It was about time I gave back.

Everyone has an opinion and that's cool but for me, helping out a bit was a no brainer.

Grow on TGP!!!!


Now where's the shirts??

-Chris

[iaresee]

What I don't understand is the payment requirement for the search function. I've been here a long time and I contribute a lot. I'm sure my opinion really doesn't matter, but I don't think this was the right thing to do. They should have at least grandfathered members that had been here for a while into being able to continue using the search function.

Search is certainly a large drain on hosting resources and therefore a good portion of the money TGP has to pay to keep up and running goes in to supporting searching. I too think removing searching (in particular the new posts link) is going to hurt usability for non-paying members and over time degrade the content and quality of life around here. Someone already pointed out that without easy search access repeat questions could rise. Not an unbeliveable hypothesis.

I missed the thread where options were being discussed. I would have proposed advertisements for non-paying members. Banner ads and targeted AdSense ads. For $12 members perhaps no banner but keep AdSense ads plus the additional PM capacity and what not. Above $12, no ads at all. It would be some insurance against the scenario where not enough people sign up for subscriptions and TGP still can't cover its bills. Now that people are paying introducing ads is going to be even more contentious. Better to have just done it, with a way to get rid of them for a little bit of money, than to have to revisit it again if subscriptions don't provide the revenue to keep things going.

Time will tell. It's certainly an interesting experiment in internet economics and social networking.

[RAILhead]

Ummm....I understood that this was not a gear sale site.
It's a discussion site that, as a service to their members, hosts a for sale section.

IMHO, that is at the root of a lot of the problems of late.

QTF.

Damn, people -- I was already Grandfathered but I still paid $50 just to show support. Where's the love?

[wahfreak]

I get more knowledge and information here than any other music souce. I'll gladly pay to keep it. The expectation that everything is life has to be given away for free is getting worse and worse and it shows in the amount of complaining being done about this. People don't realize how much work it takes to keep this place running let alone the cost for servers and the like. This is not for the admins to draw a salary from.

I wonder how many of you that are complaining about the fee are going to start up your own site and manage it free of charge.

[leviathan]

I would be for having ads on the page for members that are not payed members. I have this on most all the other forums i have and have never had a problem with it, because right now the board is hard to use for me.

[Groovey Records]

Hmmm What does it say under my name ?

[big mike]

I would be for having ads on the page for members that are not payed members. I have this on most all the other forums i have and have never had a problem with it, because right now the board is hard to use for me.

Do these other boards have the same amount of users daily?

[Matt F]

QTF.

Damn, people -- I was already Grandfathered but I still paid $50 just to show support. Where's the love?


Ditto..

I am surprised this is as large of an issue as it seems to be.

[leviathan]

Do these other boards have the same amount of users daily?
Honestly i have no idea, most are probably smaller, one might be close to this on terms of user. But they are not all guitar forums. But they just have a nice little ad banner at the top and at the bottom and it makes them quite a lot of money.

[Dave Orban]

Honestly i have no idea, most are probably smaller, one might be close to this on terms of user. But they are not all guitar forums. But they just have a nice little ad banner at the top and at the bottom and it makes them quite a lot of money.
Good for them.

[stratocat63]

I had voluntarily contributed previously, after realizing how much cash flowed through here from my transactions, and how much I benefited from this place in terms of information. I didn't give a lot either, just $20, but if everyone had just sent in even $5 each we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

This isn't really a criticism, just an opinion: I would have preferred it if the newly implemented "donation" policy just had one level, the same for everyone, so we didn't have the class designations people are objecting to. Before, whether it was a $5 donation, or $50 or more, everyone was recognized the same.

As for keeping riff-raff out, $12 won't do it when we're talking hundreds or thousands of $ per deal. For that matter neither will $25, or $50, when there's a lot of money at stake. In that regard, I think some folks' expectations are a little high. But they had to do something, this is what it was. It will probably be refined as we go forward. If not, I can live with that too.

[GtrWiz]

One concern to me would be is scaring off potential new members. If someone goes to a site for the first time and can't use the search to find what they are looking for, how likely is it that person going will pay to see all the potential knowledge to be gain from membership?

This could be a serious long term problem.

[leviathan]

Good for them.
I am guessing this is suppose to be sarcastic, I am sorry that i do not have the money to donate, but one i do not use the forum near as much as some of you do and i am trying to work my way through college and do not have time for the job. I am sorry we do not agree but you do not have to mock me. Every time someone had said something that is a little bit in disagreement three people have jumped them and i am serious. Go reread through and look how people have jumped over people. I thought my idea was kind of good, you would lose nothing you have already paid and would not see the ads. The ads would just generate more money for more improvements for the people that are not member just looking or for none paying members. I still think that the emporium should be left for those who contribute, the larger PM boxes and avatars are just for contributers, but the search could be enabled for everyone so that new user would be able to really see what the site has to offer.

[dkaplowitz]

...but if everyone had just sent in even $5 each we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
How about it! And the irony is, the ones who never gave before are the ones making the biggest stink about how evil the new changes are.

Here's how it plays out: They never gave. But they used a plenty. By so doing they forced the issue. Now that the issue's been forced and they're being required to pay to play, they're complaining. But if I (who pretty much always gave with the same motivation you mentioned -- because I got a lot out of this site) get angry and react, I'm an elitist or some other such terrible person. This whole thing has really forced what I like to call the knucklehead factor. :D

[wgs1230]

This whole thing has really forced what I like to call the knucklehead factor. :D

And then there are those of us who haven't contributed b/c the only publicized option has been Paypal and we've actually taken the time to read the entirety of their user agreement.

[Uma Floresta]

How about it! And the irony is, the ones who never gave before are the ones making the biggest stink about how evil the new changes are.

Here's how it plays out: They never gave. But they used a plenty. By so doing they forced the issue. Now that the issue's been forced and they're being required to pay to play, they're complaining. But if I (who pretty much always gave with the same motivation you mentioned -- because I got a lot out of this site) get angry and react, I'm an elitist or some other such terrible person. This whole thing has really forced what I like to call the knucklehead factor. :D

I've never donated money, but I've sure donated a lot of information.

[dkaplowitz]

And then there are those of us who haven't contributed b/c the only publicized option has been Paypal and we've actually taken the time to read the entirety of their user agreement.
O, did Brian turn down your offer to send a check or M/O? (I'm not accusing, I'm asking)

[slopeshoulder]

I think it's a fine idea and will send in $ as soon as I can focus (this week).
My member is my ship.

[DrGonzo]

I can't believe some of the complaints I am reading in this thread. You gave people a free lunch for years and then make an announcement that you just cant afford to be that kind anymore and you get called 'elitist', 'greedy' and 'opportunistic'. Wow, talk about 'no good deed goes unpunished'...

Thanks for providing everything for free as long as you could TGP team. I contributed before it was mandated, but will happily re-up when my grandfathered status expires. The fun and info I get from this site is well worth what you are asking.

Don't let the criticisms get you down. You can't please all of the people all of the time...and some of the posters on this thread aren't worth the effort...my two cents.

[dkaplowitz]

I've never donated money, but I've sure donated a lot of information.
A valid contribution no doubt, too bad the vast majority ruined it for guys like you, eh?

BTW, I've been here like 4 years and have never heard of you before now. Did you change your name recently?

[Uma Floresta]

A valid contribution no doubt, too bad the vast majority ruined it for guys like you, eh?

BTW, I've been here like 4 years and have never heard of you before now. Did you change your name recently?

No, but I post almost exclusively in the effects forum. Not much in common with most pub posters, who seem to be an older crowd.

[MuseCafeChris]

I've never donated money, but I've sure donated a lot of information.

+1. I've also donated opportunities for TGP members to get up on stage and jam.

I just wonder how long it'll be before guys like me (non-contributors who don't use the search function or the emporiums and therefore DON'T bitch about the new system) are ostracized as well. Hopefully it'll never happen, in keeping with Brian and Scott's stated intentions for this place.

[iaresee]

I've never donated money, but I've sure donated a lot of information.

A very valid point. Brian and Scott don't provide the content, just the platform for archiving it. I do think the social impact of going subscription will be interesting to watch. Will the content devolve or evolve because of it? Will the masses (and thier knowledge) simply migrate? Or does the platform TGP provides via vBulletin offer enough of an incentive to keep the content providers around?

I'm looking forward to seeing how it all plays it. I'm sure the TGP guys were grappling with all of this as they made their decisions and changes.

[Lintybits]

Search question for the mods.

Just noticed that the ability to click on a user name and see the last posts of that person is restricted.

Is this one of the changes, and if so what level brings that function back?

thanks

[VoodooBlues]

One concern to me would be is scaring off potential new members. If someone goes to a site for the first time and can't use the search to find what they are looking for, how likely is it that person going will pay to see all the potential knowledge to be gain from membership?

This could be a serious long term problem.

Naw, not really. Too many newer AND older members didn't use the search function to begin with. Hence the "What's the best univibe pedal" thread every 3 weeks. Or they say, "I know I should do a search but I want some fresh opinions". :rolleyes:

[suckamc]

Ahhhh, then the mass exodus from TGP will begin soon. As for me, I'll stay around. But in the long run, I suspect this will cause a significant drop in TGP's traffic.

[Greggy]

Let's see now. I need to advertise and sell my hyped hyper distortion wall of doom bring down the house distortion pedal on the emporium to raise the cash to pay for my membership. Yet, I can not post in the emporium until I pay the membership dues.

Damn you Scherzer! Toying with the little guy with your highly intellectualized catch 22 schemes. Woe to the instigators of devious plans.

[chewynodoubt]

If you'd really gotten "bashed hardcore", why did you then donate 30 minutes after your first post threatening to leave over the changes? I wouldn't donate to a site where I got bashed hardcore in any kind of unfair way.

I guess I am just a glutton for punishment! I am here to make sure everyone has a voice. I don't have a problem with $12 a month, I am just wondering if the stradegy will 'pay off' in the long run. everytime a free site on the internet starts charging for things that used to be free, they usually don't fair to well. For the sake of TGP I hope this isn't the case because aside from the cork-sniffing and high and mighty attitude of some members, I actually love it.

[The Last Rebel]

Ahhhh, then the exodus from TGP will begin soon.
It looks like all the people here that have nothing useful to contribute will leave, and the people who can do something useful for this board will stay. Maybe this was a good thing.

[cram]

This question needs answering, b/c as someone who was part of a class-action against Paypal several years ago there's exactly no chance I'm committing to that user agreement, not even for TGP.

the process allows for 4 major credit cards to be used...

Mods - you may want to change the label next to the section containing the dropdown for payment. It says paypal and indeed, it does take paypal, but we can simply enter billing information in using any credit card (2 screens later).
We just have to enter the information in and for those who'd wish to contribute as I just did, you may be turning people away because they don't realize that they can use their ccard.

great site, I use it daily. I've never even sold or bought anything here, but I've learned a ton and I appreciate it fully.

[DC1]

I don't want to have to get up to kick anyone in teh head, so shape up ppl. http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif

You can kick me in the head,

BUT NOT WITH TONE! DAMMIT...

(watch out for the sweep when you go up though...:rotflmao )


DC

[bbarnard]

I've never donated money, but I've sure donated a lot of information.

It doesn't bother me about the $ to use the emporium and I'll probably join just to keep using that portion of the board, but I have to say that taking away the search function(s) really sucks. One of Brian's contentions was that a large part of the problem was for people signing on to sell and not to contribute to our community. It would have been nice if some de minimis set of posts allowed you to be grandfathered in the search function. I can see keeping out people from the emporium who don't contribute and are on only to sell. As you can tell from my number of posts, I'm not just a get on to sell person.

The "new posts" search function was the very first thing I clicked on when I got on so that I could search for new threads to contribute to (with info). Also it appears that I can also now no longer search for my user name which I used to monitor posts that I had contributed to (with info). To me that makes the board substantially less useful for new members who are coming in to test the waters before trying things out. In fact I've NEVER been on a board before that didn't allow for free searching (or disabled the free search capacity of the board software). Also for me the Google advanced search option doesn't work (I click it but nothing happens). So for today the board is pretty useless for me from an informational standpoint.

I could care less about avatars (ridiculous) and wouldn't have minded ads. Don't care about having a lot more PM space, as I already have two email accounts so I can always use those to communicate and I was good about policing and cleaning up my own PM space.

Oh and I should add no sense in slagging me for my comments as I won't be able to search for my user name to see if any posts have been made about my complaining about the search functions being removed.

[jspax7]

I get more knowledge and information here than any other music souce. I'll gladly pay to keep it. The expectation that everything is life has to be given away for free is getting worse and worse and it shows in the amount of complaining being done about this. People don't realize how much work it takes to keep this place running let alone the cost for servers and the like. This is not for the admins to draw a salary from.

I wonder how many of you that are complaining about the fee are going to start up your own site and manage it free of charge.

I was about to make a similar post when I read this.

The internet has so much free information that some people have the idea that if something isn't free, it's a rip-off.

IMO, this attitude devalues the hard work that people do to make sites like this available. TGP is a resource that I will continue to support. If it's going to grow, it needs to be managed.

I also support the recent crack down on threads that seem to be started with the sole intention of stirring up $hit.

Hats off to everyone for working to maintain a civil forum. I'll stick around.

[Dave Orban]

I know a lot of people (of all ages), and yet I know of virtually no one who can not afford to drop $12 bucks per year on as valuable a resource as the Gear Page.

It boggles the mind to think of how much coin folks will routinely piss away on other things, but these same folks will argue incessantly about something like this.

:jo

[wgs1230]

O, did Brian turn down your offer to send a check or M/O? (I'm not accusing, I'm asking)

Yes, though I can't recall if the mod who responded was Brian- might've been Scott or Alec. Was told that they didn't have the means to track mail-in contributions.

the process allows for 4 major credit cards to be used...

Who, exactly, is processing my cc if I select this option?

[Paychek]

Whats next? Pay per post.

[aleclee]

I've never donated money, but I've sure donated a lot of information.The problem with this line of reasoning is that the frequent posters think that sharing information means that they don't need to chip in while the infrequent posters think they don't need to chip in because they don't "participate".

If searching is valuable to you (if $0.21 per week can be considered "valuable") then it's easy enough to be able to use advanced search. If it's not, Google's willing to give it to you for free.
If you want to sell something but don't feel like paying eBay fees, you can pay $5 for a one-month subscription or $12/year. The one-month cost is the eBay fee for what, about two stompboxes (and we're not talking Klons)?
The fact is that 92% of our registered members and 85% of those who have visited in the past month have never coughed up a cent since this board was founded over six years ago. As the board has grown, the percentage of people actually chipping in has declined. This led to a situation where depending on the generosity of our members was not sufficient to pay the hosting costs. As the saying goes, "hope is not a strategy" so a strategy was created.

I find it curious that there are people who admit they will not financially support this site expect to have a voice in how TGP funds its operations. It seems a bit like going to an amp builder and telling them "I don't like the way your amps sound but you really need to lower the price on your 1-12 combos". In my opinion, there are very very few people here whose knowledge and expertise is sufficiently unique or insightful as to be considered irreplaceable. Let us remember the maxim "Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one and they tend to stink" the next time we feel that sharing our opinions of a bunch of stompboxes somehow relieves us from the responsibility of chipping in.

Forget about sharing brilliant (or not) insights. I look back to the "good old days" when folks actually cared about the community and their fellow members. I recall a time when a touring pro who was a regular on the old PRS Forum injured his hand and was caught short. He had a short-term need to pay off some medical expenses. A "let's raise money for ______" thread was created and a community that was at most 1/10th the size of today's TGP came through within hours. Nowadays Brian can post that TGP isn't getting enough donations to meet operating expenses and people still decide that it's someone else's problem.

That's just embarrassing. :(

[Dave Orban]

Whats next? Pay per post.Think much...?

[MuseCafeChris]

Let us remember the maxim "Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one and they tend to stink" the next time we feel that sharing our opinions of a bunch of stompboxes somehow relieves us from the responsibility of chipping in.

Only problem with that is, according to the admins/mods, the "responsibility" to chip in does not exist. The "decision" to chip in does. If you decide to do so, you are rewarded with access to more of the site's amenities. Makes sense and seems fair to me.

[guitarpkr67]

Whats next? Pay per post.

Grow up.

[aleclee]

Only problem with that is, according to the admins/mods, the "responsibility" to chip in does not exist. The "decision" to chip in does. If you decide to do so, you are rewarded with access to more of the site's amenities. Makes sense and seems fair to me.Regardless of what your decision is, there's some responsibility there.

It's like having a keg party every weekend. A few folks chip in for beer while the majority of folks just ride. Some of the regulars might hope to find solace in the fact that their wit and good looks add to the party's appeal but there comes a time when the generous few can't buy enough beer and chips for everyone. They put a cup by the keg but that still doesn't pay for the beer. At some point either the parties stop or the hosts figure out a way to get the guests to offset their costs.

Like the hosts of our hypothetical kegger, TGP has been forced to come up with a way to pay the increasing bills because not enough people felt sufficiently "responsible" for the expenses.

[Paychek]

Think much...?

Sure do... and I'm not even old, bald, and gassy.

[Uma Floresta]

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the frequent posters think that sharing information means that they don't need to chip in while the infrequent posters think they don't need to chip in because they don't "participate".
If searching is valuable to you (if $0.21 per week can be considered "valuable") then it's easy enough to be able to use advanced search. If it's not, Google's willing to give it to you for free.
If you want to sell something but don't feel like paying eBay fees, you can pay $5 for a one-month subscription or $12/year. The one-month cost is the eBay fee for what, about two stompboxes (and we're not talking Klons)?
The fact is that 92% of our registered members and 85% of those who have visited in the past month have never coughed up a cent since this board was founded over six years ago.As the board has grown, the percentage of people actually chipping in has declined. This led to a situation where depending on the generosity of our members was not sufficient to pay the hosting costs. As the saying goes, "hope is not a strategy" so a strategy was created.

I find it curious that there are people who admit they will not financially support this site expect to have a voice in how TGP funds its operations. It seems a bit like going to an amp builder and telling them "I don't like the way your amps sound but you really need to lower the price on your 1-12 combos". In my opinion, there are very very few people here whose knowledge and expertise is sufficiently unique or insightful as to be considered irreplaceable. Let us remember the maxim "Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one and they tend to stink" the next time we feel that sharing our opinions of a bunch of stompboxes somehow relieves us from the responsibility of chipping in.

Forget about sharing brilliant (or not) insights. I look back to the "good old days" when folks actually cared about the community and their fellow members. I recall a time when a touring pro who was a regular on the old PRS Forum injured his hand and was caught short. He had a short-term need to pay off some medical expenses. A "let's raise money for ______" thread was created and a community that was at most 1/10th the size of today's TGP came through within hours. Nowadays Brian can post that TGP isn't getting enough donations to meet operating expenses and people still decide that it's someone else's problem.

That's just embarrassing. :(

I've contributed a lot of informative stuff to the site, not just opinions like "Tube Screamer Clone #357 rawks!" Lots of information on modding and technical details. And I haven't charged TGP a dime for it!

I get the feeling that eventually they'll re-open search to everyone. It's too basic a feature to withhold for long and have a functioning board. Charging for the emporium makes sense. But for the search function? Might as well charge per post, as someone else said.

[Born2Blues67]

I have no problem supporting TGP with a small donation. But,i resent
that there is no option for payment other than CC. I don't like giving
that kind of info over the internet. I know way too many people with
identity theft issues & quite frankly,i do not wish to be among them.

Sorry about the rant.

[MuseCafeChris]

Regardless of what your decision is, there's some responsibility there.

It's like having a keg party every weekend. A few folks chip in for beer while the majority of folks just ride. Some of the regulars might hope to find solace in the fact that their wit and good looks add to the party's appeal but there comes a time when the generous few can't buy enough beer and chips for everyone. They put a cup by the keg but that still doesn't pay for the beer. At some point either the parties stop or the hosts figure out a way to get the guests to offset their costs.

Like the hosts of our hypothetical kegger, TGP has been forced to come up with a way to pay the increasing bills because not enough people felt sufficiently "responsible" for the expenses.

Well, as usual, I'm gonna go not by what the rank-and-file members of this site say, but by what the admins/mods of this site say, which repeatedly has been it's not their intent to make people pay to use the basic discussion functions of this forum. Works for me.

[uOpt]

Lack of search might also make it tougher for people to find items for sale once they fall off the front page.

Just bumping this as I think it might be overall better to do this:

1) search function "new posts" == paying members only.

2) search function for text in posts == everybody.

I believe the second item helps improving the signal to noise ratio by n00bs finding answers to common questions, and I would need it to decide whether to get a payed subscription in the first place. Also, if people use real text search in the forsale areas, then the people who posted the ads have payed TGP, so it's kind of fair.

I bet that most of the server load comes from the first item, people like me bash the heck out of it (I pay for it now, so don't beat me up).

[Balance]

I just payed for a subscription. Sounds fair to me although I'm afraid the lack of a search feature for newish members might increase the number of repeated questions. Maybe there's a way to disable the "new posts" search (which most likely is the major source of server load) but not disable the "real" text search?

I agree wholeheartedly. This is the only new policy I'm concerned about.

[Dave Orban]

Just for the record, I am completely mystified as to how anyone who's been here for just a couple months and has participated with a tiny number of posts can come to ANY educated conclusion as to what makes sense for this site.

Just sayin'... :cool:

[DrGonzo]

I've contributed a lot of informative stuff to the site, not just opinions like "Tube Screamer Clone #357 rawks!" Lots of information on modding and technical details. And I haven't charged TGP a dime for it!

I get the feeling that eventually they'll re-open search to everyone. It's too basic a feature to withhold for long and have a functioning board. Charging for the emporium makes sense. But for the search function? Might as well charge per post, as someone else said.


I would assume that in addition to providing useful information, you have also used The Gear Page to research useful information yourself? Would this information exchange not offset to a zero sum?

This is not about paying for information, it's about paying for the conduit for such information to be exchanged. TGP's server costs may be itemized in an accountant's ledger. Your post contributions cannot be itemized in this way. I don't mean to belittle what you have offered to the TGP community but you are comparing apples and oranges.

[grego7]

Regardless of what your decision is, there's some responsibility there.

It's like having a keg party every weekend. A few folks chip in for beer while the majority of folks just ride. Some of the regulars might hope to find solace in the fact that their wit and good looks add to the party's appeal but there comes a time when the generous few can't buy enough beer and chips for everyone. They put a cup by the keg but that still doesn't pay for the beer. At some point either the parties stop or the hosts figure out a way to get the guests to offset their costs.

Like the hosts of our hypothetical kegger, TGP has been forced to come up with a way to pay the increasing bills because not enough people felt sufficiently "responsible" for the expenses.

Have you seen the "post your pics" thread?! :messedup






...just trying to lighten up the mood..

[javahut]

I don't have an issue with the small payment. However, it just makes me think ahead to the number of music forums I frequent... and if they all requested I donate money to keep them running... I would have to limit the amount of use and the extent of some of the use at quite a few forums to keep from having to pay several hundred dollars a year just to be able to use the forums.

Just seems to me if what really irks is the revenue generated from emporium users who don't post otherwise... then try to make the money needed to run TGP through the revenue that's generated from emporium sales. When someone sells something, a portion goes to TGP. Of course, you'd then have to keep up with that, so would probably require even more work.

I'm really just thinking of it from the standpoint of the additive effect of "what if" all the places I like to frequent on the internet decided to start charging me.

Also have to say that Guitar Player, IMHO, really is starting to pale in comparison to Premier Guitar... who currently gives their magazine away free online, has many more articles that are more often more informative and interesting to me, and has apparently plenty of ads to support itself... none of which I mind seeing, because they also generally have many more advertisers that I'm interested in (such as many more booteek type ads, instead of just the huge corporate ad 'zine Guitar Player has become).

My 2 cents.

[aleclee]

Well, as usual, I'm gonna go not by what the rank-and-file members of this site say, but by what the admins/mods of this site say, which repeatedly has been it's not their intent to make people pay to use the basic discussion functions of this forum. Works for me.I'm not speaking about Scott and Brian's intent. I'm talking about what I see as ethical obligations. That's why I used the keg party analogy. You might not think you're "required" to pay because there are no consequences for your omission. I think that people have an obligation to pay because there's no other source of funding.

P.S., as someone who has spent hundreds of hours working on TGP's servers and managing the board's configuration (including these recent changes you like so much), I prefer to think of myself as being part of the TGP staff whether you do or not.

[aleclee]

Have you seen the "post your pics" thread?! :messedupExactly. Some people aren't quite the attraction they might think they are. :cool:

[big mike]

Exactly. Some people aren't quite the attraction they might think they are. :cool:

Speak for yourself, I'm a sexy beeyotch. (Esp. without the barrel)

:BluesBros


As you can surmise, I'm behind you 100% on that Alec, it's a good analogy.

[shuie]

Okay, I just kicked in some money. I like it. So, how long before the permissions on my account change? And, does it matter if my paypal is a different address than my registered address here?

[MuseCafeChris]

(including these recent changes you like so much)

I love the recent changes and agree with all of them wholeheartedly.

[jtm622]

No offense intended to anybody, but a possible huge "negative" about some members electing to contribute only "information" to the TGP kitty is that it is not easily converted into "the coin of the realm"... which is, of course, what TGP must have in order to pay it's bills... Also, IMO, these steps taken by the owners of TGP to keep TGP viable would not be taken IF THEY WERE NOT NEEDED... Does anybody here DOUBT THAT?

[shuie]

nevermind.... I can see that Im now a supporting member. I guess thats better than an Athletic Supporter :)

The integration with paypal for the instant access is pretty slick. Nice work, guys. Thats how it should done everywhere that has a high traffic emporium type of section. Im so happy I can search again. Do the Gold Members still have to wait 15 seconds between searches?

[gkoelling]

I have no problem supporting TGP with a small donation. But,i resent
that there is no option for payment other than CC. I don't like giving
that kind of info over the internet. I know way too many people with
identity theft issues & quite frankly,i do not wish to be among them.

Sorry about the rant.

Send Brian a PM. I've donated in the past by sending a check. It's obviously not as quick but it still gets the job done.

[Hiwatt Bob]

Just for the record, I am completely mystified as to how anyone who's been here for just a couple months and has participated with a tiny number of posts can come to ANY educated conclusion as to what makes sense for this site.


dave, seriously man--we all get where you're coming from. seems like you're doing nothing but wasting bandwidth repeating the same thing over and over.

it seems like things around here are trending toward disrespect--from what i can tell, you're part of the problem. you seem quick to start pointing fingers about all these 'newbs' who are the problem, it might help to examine your own behavior. just sayin.

[Uma Floresta]

I would assume that in addition to providing useful information, you have also used The Gear Page to research useful information yourself? Would this information exchange not offset to a zero sum?



Not really. I got some useful information from Clay Jones' posts (except he recently left TGP in disgust and asked that all his posts be deleted, so there went that resource), but mostly TGP has served as entertainment for me, personally. There are better sources out there for gear info. I mean the nitty gritty stuff, not just what new products came out this week, or what amp has the best Dumble tone.

Really, paying members aren't bringing the beer to the party per se - - they're helping to pay for rent. Which is great. But the beer is the information shared.

I think most of the people who are really gung ho about supporting TGP financially are people who really like the TGP culture. Which is great. I've supported another forum because I liked the culture there. I don't particularly care for some of the cultural aspects of TGP, so donating here isn't a priority to me. If donation became mandatory to even read TGP, I'd just stop coming.

I think most people can relate to this, if they think about it. Most of us probably post at multiple forums. Would you contribute $$ to all of them, or just the ones you like best?

[Hiwatt Bob]

i'm still wondering--since there will only be a fraction of the people using the search function--if we can't change it so that you can search for words less than 4 letters long (ie. SHO, TTE, EP3, etc)?

[DrGonzo]

Not really. I got some useful information from Clay Jones' posts (except he recently left TGP in disgust and asked that all his posts be deleted, so there went that resource), but mostly TGP has served as entertainment for me, personally. There are better sources out there for gear info. I mean the nitty gritty stuff, not just what new products came out this week, or what amp has the best Dumble tone.

Really, paying members aren't bringing the beer to the party per se - - they're helping to pay for rent. Which is great. But the beer is the information shared.

I think most of the people who are really gung ho about supporting TGP financially are people who really like the TGP culture. Which is great. I've supported another forum because I liked the culture there. I don't particularly care for some of the cultural aspects of TGP, so donating here isn't a priority to me. If donation became mandatory to even read TGP, I'd just stop coming.

I think most people can relate to this, if they think about it. Most of us probably post at multiple forums. Would you contribute $$ to all of them, or just the ones you like best?

I can see where you are coming from to a certain extent..but 1400 posts is an awful lot of time and bandwidth for someone that really doesnt dig the information or the culture of this site???

Then again if you aren't using the Gear Page for real gear info then the loss of Advanced Searching really can't hurt your user experience that much, can it? I mean how many advanced searches do you need to run to be 'entertained'? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to make you examine your own statements.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from, in that Scott and crew can't sort through everyone's posts and assign a dollar 'worthiness' figure to what everyone brings to the table and deduct it from the total. This isnt about friends or content, it's about paying the bills or it gets shut down. If you don't think losing the Gear Page is a big deal then it's simple, you just don't contribure. If you'd like to see it stick around.. then contribute in both money and content. :AOK

[Uma Floresta]

Then again if you aren't using the Gear Page for real gear info then the loss of Advanced Searching really can't hurt your user experience that much, can it? I mean how many advanced searches do you need to run to be 'entertained'? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to make you examine your own statements.



That's a good point. I suppose it's not really that important.

Regarding my post count - a lot of that has been just answering questions, or contributing some interesting discovery, or debating, or just wasting time. It speaks more to my poor sense of priorities and my ability to waste time than anything else.

:drink

[12345678]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I think if TGP wanted to start some crap, they definitely succeeded in that respect.

The butt kissing some of you guys are partaking in has caused me to vomit for 24hrs now. I can't hold down solid food and I'm drinking Gatorade to stay hydrated.

This is a cool forum but guess what? There are a lot of these kinds of forums out there.

And the people who are saying that free sites that turn into pay sites usually start to suck are absolutely 100% correct.

It's funny that so many of you have no other place to go and talk about gear that you're willing to give $50 to someone you've never met.

If we're really in such a giving mood and you need to give to relieve some guilty feelings, why don't you send $50 to Darfur.

[Hiwatt Bob]

If we're really in such a giving mood and you need to give to relieve some guilty feelings, why don't you send $50 to Darfur.

no advanced search function or emporium priveledges.

[amigo30]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I think if TGP wanted to start some crap, they definitely succeeded in that respect.

The butt kissing some of you guys are partaking in has caused me to vomit for 24hrs now. I can't hold down solid food and I'm drinking Gatorade to stay hydrated.

This is a cool forum but guess what? There are a lot of these kinds of forums out there.

And the people who are saying that free sites that turn into pay sites usually start to suck are absolutely 100% correct.

It's funny that so many of you have no other place to go and talk about gear that you're willing to give $50 to someone you've never met.

If we're really in such a giving mood and you need to give to relieve some guilty feelings, why don't you send $50 to Darfur.

You're going to make a LOT of friends here with your cheerful disposition.:BEER
BTW....doesn't your username break the religious content rules here? I'm just sayin....

[Gasp100]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I think if TGP wanted to start some crap, they definitely succeeded in that respect.

The butt kissing some of you guys are partaking in has caused me to vomit for 24hrs now. I can't hold down solid food and I'm drinking Gatorade to stay hydrated.

This is a cool forum but guess what? There are a lot of these kinds of forums out there.

And the people who are saying that free sites that turn into pay sites usually start to suck are absolutely 100% correct.

It's funny that so many of you have no other place to go and talk about gear that you're willing to give $50 to someone you've never met.

If we're really in such a giving mood and you need to give to relieve some guilty feelings, why don't you send $50 to Darfur.

Once again... See ya!
:munch
How come the people who are complaining and saying there are so many other great sites don't just leave??? It seems like this thread is bringing out tons of posers... oops, I mean posters...
I guess it's best to insult TGP, the staff and all users first? Then leave? :BOUNCE

[rickd]

i guess the thing that turns me off is that i know now, once my 'for sale' item leaves the first few pages of the emporium, only paying members can search it out

therefore, the mods have limited the exposure of my item even if i'm paying to use said privilege

i like this site, and i'm still debating whether or not to pay; it's not that i don't have the money or think that it's in any way a exorbitant, i just don't like the way it's set up

and i don't know that i'm going to miss the functions that i'm forbidden to use

[wstsidela]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I think if TGP wanted to start some crap, they definitely succeeded in that respect.

The butt kissing some of you guys are partaking in has caused me to vomit for 24hrs now. I can't hold down solid food and I'm drinking Gatorade to stay hydrated.

This is a cool forum but guess what? There are a lot of these kinds of forums out there.

And the people who are saying that free sites that turn into pay sites usually start to suck are absolutely 100% correct.

It's funny that so many of you have no other place to go and talk about gear that you're willing to give $50 to someone you've never met.

If we're really in such a giving mood and you need to give to relieve some guilty feelings, why don't you send $50 to Darfur.

http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/fail.jpg

[GDking]

How come the people who are complaining and saying there are so many other great sites don't just leave??? :BOUNCE

Cause they want to share their boundless experience and knowledge of trolling boutique pedal threads.

Hell if they cannot see spending more than 50 dollars on a pedal, why pay 12 bucks for one of the best gear sale sites?

I guess selling completed kit pedals on ebay for labor rates that would make a third world worker balk, it takes a long time for the fees to hit 12 bucks so I can see their point.

[shuie]

Anything that helps get rid of the bottom feeders that hang out on the Emporium here is good thing, IMO. $5 a month is a good start, but it should be no less than $25 per year, IMO.

[12345678]

Anything that helps get rid of the bottom feeders that hang out on the Emporium here is good thing, IMO. $5 a month is a good start, but it should be no less than $25 per year, IMO.

A lot of these "bottom feeders" are the guys buying your stuff dude. I love this sort of elitism that only the internet can provide.

[rickd]

Anything that helps get rid of the bottom feeders that hang out on the Emporium here is good thing, IMO. how will $12 a year get rid of bottom feeders on the emporium? that's another misconception

it's not going to make it any safer or any better

that myth needs to cease and desist right now

[MuseCafeChris]

A lot of these "bottom feeders" are the guys buying your stuff dude.

Yes, but those folks can still peruse the emporiums and buy things just as they always have been able to.

[shallbe]

I am down widdit!

Thanks to Brain, Scott and all the mods for the hard work and wisdom.

I really appreciate this place, and like the changes. Even though I am in the ad business, I am glad we did not go in that direction for TGP.

[Seditious]

A lot of these "bottom feeders" are the guys buying your stuff dude. I love this sort of elitism that only the internet can provide.

Wrong. I've sold quite a bit of stuff on this site and all of it was to members whose names I recognized as frequent posters/contributors. I won't miss anyone who leaves over this. If the membership dropped to 5000 not only would I not be upset, I'm sure I'd start reading and posting in the gear sections again knowing there would be quality over quantity.

[dkaplowitz]

Of the couple dozen transactions I've had on the board, 1, maybe 2 were with someone with less than 5 posts.

[russv]

As all consumers we have a the right to vote with our feet. I can only imagine what a pain in the ass it is to run this place. Thanks for doing it now and in the past. I haven't contributed up until now, but the vibe in this thread is part of the reason why. It has become more hostile around here. I am going to wait out the inevitable changes, and then decide if I want to contribute and hang. I hope that things will improve because $12 is nothing for tons of great info. But being annoyed isn't worth any price. Again I hope this works out well.

[Dave Orban]

I can hear the short bus starting to pull away now...!

Yay!

[Scott Peterson]

Just a note.

The Gear Page is a community of musicians. Not a 'buy/sell your stuff' place. Every complaint I have read so far is about the Emporiums.

Guess what? 9/10 reported posts were from the Emporium and today the number of reported posts from that area are way down. I'll take that tradeoff.

For every 'shooting yourself in the foot, less buyers/sellers, etc etc' is a guy/gal missing the entire point of the community. And I guess that, itself, proves the point. Many that don't like the fact that this entire thing costs a helluva lot of money to keep up never intended to have any part in a community what so ever. It's still free to post. It's still free to search with Google. And go sell something on Ebay and take your hit on their fees and paypal fees and see if you saving that $12 by not stepping up here is worth it. Or don't; because this isn't "The Gear Page Emporiums... and some forums" page.

The elitism and anti-elitism is silly through out. It's not about that stuff either. It's about a civil place to hang out and shoot the breeze with other musicians. It's guitar-oriented; but it's a community. Some folks don't like that. Or don't care. That's their loss. They are the ones that need places like this the most.

[Uma Floresta]

They are the ones that need places like this the most really.

I think it's a stretch to say that anyone needs this place. Or any other gear forum.

[Brian Scherzer]

I have read every post and will do my best to say exactly what I think and feel.......respectfully.

Some people are making a lot of assumptions without taking into account the data. I know that I'm about to repeat myself, but some are just not "getting it" or are choosing to see thingfs from a self-centered viewpoint. Pardon me while I write some random thoughts about the changes and the reasons for same.

1. What would you do if your income didn't equal the rent payment for 2 out of the past 3 months? Would you get really worried? Would you decide to do something, or would you just sit there? Our costs exceeded income for 2 of the past 3 months.

2. We have had a huge influx of members that led to an increase of 26% in essentially 4 months. The rate of growth continues to increase, not decrease.

3. Although 6000 more members joined since December, donations have remained the same as before they joined. Very few of the new members were donating.

4. We had literally just moved to a dual server setup. These weren't cheap leased servers. We went with very modern high end servers and then paid to beef up the RAM in each server and to make both speed and redundancy as good as they could be. For instance, our data server has a RAID10 configuration that utilizes 4 hard drives. Yet, having just moved to the new servers in March, our rate of growth would have had us adding even more servers within 3-4 more months........with no increase in revenue.

5. Within the past year there were several threats of lawsuits by builders. One was serious enough for us to have to get an attorney involved. I recently attempted to get liability insurance for TGP from the largest insurance broker in Colorado. Not only could they not find a company that would insure us because they have no idea what the liabilities might be (internet laws are constantly changing), but they guessed that the minimum fee per year would be $7500......if anyone would insure us. Not one threat of a lawsuit was for anything that Scott or myself wrote. The threats were about what others wrote....but it was me that had a couple of semi-sleepless nights from worrying.

6. We asked for member opinions in December on a thread that ran for quite a while and had a lot of responses. The concensus was to NOT have advertising and to charge some sort of fee. We followed what the membership seemed to want.

7. Some members are comparing TGP and how things are paid for or run with other websites. We are larger than most of those sites, meaning that we have more costs, and we are not owned by some large corporation. We have never accepted advertising because we felt that it could cause a perception that we are controlled by the people who pay for ads. I'd rather get roasted for what we are doing now than to be considered a shill for other companies.

8. Something had to give. You can't increase the size of your membership and the resulting costs without increasing your income. Almost every complaint in the posts in this thread was made by people who have never donated a penny to help keep TGP going. Where were you when I wrote that we had to get more donations? Yes, you were silent and expected others to pick up the tab. Now you don't like what we had to do to make sure we stayed afloat.

9. We will look at the search possibilities once we know what our financial picture will look like. We'd love to have the search feature for everyone as long as we know we can afford to pay for more performance in the servers.

10. I have said the same thing many times before. We are TGP, not some other site. If all discussion sites were the same, life would be boring. I would be much happier with fewer members and reduced costs than to keep growing and having to worry about how to make ends meet. If our decision makes some people choose to leave, I can accept that. I was happier back when our membership was smaller and people were nicer to each other. I have never understood why people visit a site they don't like.

Last, but not least, if our changes lead to me not having to beg members for money and if we raise enough to keep going, the decision was a good one. If we crash and burn, I'll be sad, but happy to have my free time back.

[jaycee]

I'm not too crazy about the whole 'tiered' membership sorta thing. It will bring out the snooty-ness in some folks, that I know. "I'm a gold member, you're just a contributer".....type of crap. Maybe not in those exact words but I will bet anything that some people will feel more "entitled".

I totally realize something needs to be done to keep this place afloat but I really hope you mods will discourage that type of behavior/attitude, somehow.

[jimfog]

Been thinking about this, and can't quite figure it out.

Would any of you who have been here more than a couple months, and have posted more than 50 or so times, but haven't donated, be willing to simply, clearly, rationally, please explain why?

Really.....I'm not asking to be confrontational..........I just can't fathom it and want to understand the reasoning.

- jim

[chewynodoubt]

Been thinking about this, and can't quite figure it out.

Would any of you who have been here more than a couple months, and have posted more than 50 or so times, but haven't donated, be willing to simply, unemotionally, rationally, please explain why?

Really.....I'm not asking judgmentally..........I just can't fathom it and I want to understand.

- jim

sorry, but they know better than to open that can of worms

[chewynodoubt]

I'm not too crazy about the whole 'tiered' membership sorta thing. It will bring out the snooty-ness in some folks, that I know. "I'm a gold member, you're just a contributer".....type of crap. Maybe not in those exact words but I will bet anything that some people will feel more "entitled".

I totally realize something needs to be done to keep this place afloat but I really hope you mods will discourage that type of behavior/attitude, somehow.

yes another good point. why not make membership just one flat fee for everyone. even if its 25 or 50 bux. same for everyone would reduce the 'country club' atmosphere

[jimfog]

sorry, but they know better than to open that can of worms

Why?

[schaljo]

Been thinking about this, and can't quite figure it out.

Would any of you who have been here more than a couple months, and have posted more than 50 or so times, but haven't donated, be willing to simply, clearly, rationally, please explain why?

Really.....I'm not asking to be confrontational..........I just can't fathom it and want to understand the reasoning.

- jim


I had to transfer some funds from checking to paypal. Why it takes 5 days is beyond me. I just hope my $12.00 membership won't label me as a cheapskate. That's why I've not donated yet......

[Scott Peterson]

I think it's a stretch to say that anyone needs this place. Or any other gear forum.

I meant a place like this. A civil place to hang and talk shop. That's what this place was created for. And why I've worked on it and fought for it. That's the point. You don't have to like TGP, but it's not for lack of effort trying to do the right thing the right way. Nothing's perfect; myself included. But we are doing this for the right reasons. Nothing more or less.

[dkaplowitz]

5. Within the past year there were several threats of lawsuits by builders. One was serious enough for us to have to get an attorney involved. I recently attempted to get liability insurance for TGP from the largest insurance broker in Colorado. Not only could they not find a company that would insure us because they have no idea what the liabilities might be (internet laws are constantly changing), but they guessed that the minimum fee per year would be $7500......if anyone would insure us. Not one threat of a lawsuit was for anything that Scott or myself wrote. The threats were about what others wrote....but it was me that had a couple of semi-sleepless nights from worrying.
This is particularly distressing. Brian, those problem vendors NEED to be gotten rid of. Do you ban people when they start talking about suing? I hope these turkeys get what they have coming for threatening you for what someone else said on this board. I can't tell you how angry that makes me. I want to choke someone!

[jaycee]

Been thinking about this, and can't quite figure it out.

Would any of you who have been here more than a couple months, and have posted more than 50 or so times, but haven't donated, be willing to simply, unemotionally, rationally, please explain why?

Really.....I'm not asking judgmentally..........I just can't fathom it and I want to understand.

- jim

Internet forums are far from any importance in my life. It is a very low priority for many folks, including myself. When you have to pinch pennies to pay for gas (oh, no he didn't!!!!:p), why should you donate money to a discussion forum? I did decide to donate because I felt that the information and help i've received here has warranted it. Plus I realize there is a need and I like this place. No one HAS to donate or be told how they should be spending their money.

[jimfog]

I just hope my $12.00 membership won't label me as a cheapskate.

I think that Brian, Scott, the mods and everyone who cares about this place are THRILLED that folks will give anything.

The whole worry about "class warfare", etc is totally baseless and just an excuse for some folks not to fork over anything, IMO.

Thanks!

[Bassomatic]

sorry, but they know better than to open that can of worms

If you're done with that cross, we could use the wood.

[waltkh5]

I just made a contribution, albeit a paltry $12.00 effort. I have every endeavor to contribute more in the future. This forum offers a wealth of info and there are some terrific people on this board. Regards, Walt

[shuie]

I love this sort of elitism that only the internet can provide.

Lighten up, Francis. I only got the $5 membership.

[chewynodoubt]

Why?

because you have already made your mind up as a contributor , no reason they give would convince you, in fact you yourself said you can't fathom it so why would they even try...

even though I whined a bit, I contributed, since then I have made arguments as to why this may or may not pan out as a good decision or not, yet no one has addressed those issues. It all comes back too 12 bux isn't that much money, and t isn't but thats ot the point. even if it was $50 that isn't that much...It's about more than money...

[chewynodoubt]

If you're done with that cross, we could use the wood.

elitism at its finest. BTW I think you are in violation of the religious talk in the forums....

[mge80]

since then I have made arguments as to why this may or may not pan out as a good decision or not, yet no one has addressed those issues. ...

If this hasn't "addressed those issues", then I reckon you'll just have to live with what you have and make up your mind based on that. There's not really much else to be said on the matter. Which is what he has said. Several times. After all, there are only so many ways to say the same thing. Which is what everyone in this thread, on every side of the discussion, keeps doing...over and over. And over.


I have read every post and will do my best to say exactly what I think and feel.......respectfully.

Some people are making a lot of assumptions without taking into account the data. I know that I'm about to repeat myself, but some are just not "getting it" or are choosing to see thingfs from a self-centered viewpoint. Pardon me while I write some random thoughts about the changes and the reasons for same.

1. What would you do if your income didn't equal the rent payment for 2 out of the past 3 months? Would you get really worried? Would you decide to do something, or would you just sit there? Our costs exceeded income for 2 of the past 3 months.

2. We have had a huge influx of members that led to an increase of 26% in essentially 4 months. The rate of growth continues to increase, not decrease.

3. Although 6000 more members joined since December, donations have remained the same as before they joined. Very few of the new members were donating.

4. We had literally just moved to a dual server setup. These weren't cheap leased servers. We went with very modern high end servers and then paid to beef up the RAM in each server and to make both speed and redundancy as good as they could be. For instance, our data server has a RAID10 configuration that utilizes 4 hard drives. Yet, having just moved to the new servers in March, our rate of growth would have had us adding even more servers within 3-4 more months........with no increase in revenue.

5. Within the past year there were several threats of lawsuits by builders. One was serious enough for us to have to get an attorney involved. I recently attempted to get liability insurance for TGP from the largest insurance broker in Colorado. Not only could they not find a company that would insure us because they have no idea what the liabilities might be (internet laws are constantly changing), but they guessed that the minimum fee per year would be $7500......if anyone would insure us. Not one threat of a lawsuit was for anything that Scott or myself wrote. The threats were about what others wrote....but it was me that had a couple of semi-sleepless nights from worrying.

6. We asked for member opinions in December on a thread that ran for quite a while and had a lot of responses. The concensus was to NOT have advertising and to charge some sort of fee. We followed what the membership seemed to want.

7. Some members are comparing TGP and how things are paid for or run with other websites. We are larger than most of those sites, meaning that we have more costs, and we are not owned by some large corporation. We have never accepted advertising because we felt that it could cause a perception that we are controlled by the people who pay for ads. I'd rather get roasted for what we are doing now than to be considered a shill for other companies.

8. Something had to give. You can't increase the size of your membership and the resulting costs without increasing your income. Almost every complaint in the posts in this thread was made by people who have never donated a penny to help keep TGP going. Where were you when I wrote that we had to get more donations? Yes, you were silent and expected others to pick up the tab. Now you don't like what we had to do to make sure we stayed afloat.

9. We will look at the search possibilities once we know what our financial picture will look like. We'd love to have the search feature for everyone as long as we know we can afford to pay for more performance in the servers.

10. I have said the same thing many times before. We are TGP, not some other site. If all discussion sites were the same, life would be boring. I would be much happier with fewer members and reduced costs than to keep growing and having to worry about how to make ends meet. If our decision makes some people choose to leave, I can accept that. I was happier back when our membership was smaller and people were nicer to each other. I have never understood why people visit a site they don't like.

Last, but not least, if our changes lead to me not having to beg members for money and if we raise enough to keep going, the decision was a good one. If we crash and burn, I'll be sad, but happy to have my free time back.

[greatbigz1]

If you don't like it, leave. If you do, contribute and stay.

What's so hard about that?

It's your choice, you don't need to spout your reasons for staying or going. If you don't want to contribute, my paltry reasons won't convince and, I'm not entirely sure that you would want to be convinced.

It's their business how they want to run things, it's their forum. If you don't like it, just, please just shut it and leave.

Now...back to you regularly scheduled chick fight.

[madsr]

I don't know.. I have contributed prior to this whole deal. My feeling is if I didn't want to donate to the forum I wouldn't.. if that meant I could no longer use it fine. These claims of elitism or the so-called elitists' claims of "trolls" have absolutely no weight in the matter when it comes to my views. I think of those things as some sweaty guy typing into a box.. why would it bother me at all. If the guy was in front of me he would carry himself differently anyway. it's real easy to act like an a-hole when you're alone in a room.

[lxm]

Wrong. I've sold quite a bit of stuff on this site and all of it was to members whose names I recognized as frequent posters/contributors. I won't miss anyone who leaves over this. If the membership dropped to 5000 not only would I not be upset, I'm sure I'd start reading and posting in the gear sections again knowing there would be quality over quantity.

So only the people who pay(contribute) have useful information to contribute? The "bottom feeders" dont? WOW. Some interesting logic.

[VoodooBlues]

It's about more than money...

And that would be?

[chewynodoubt]

If this hasn't "addressed those issues", then I reckon you'll just have to live with what you have and make up your mind based on that. There's not really much else to be said on the matter. Which is what he has said. Several times. After all, there are only so many ways to say the same thing. Which is what everyone in this thread, on every side of the discussion, keeps doing...over and over. And over.

noted

[chewynodoubt]

And that would be?

that it has given a attitude of elitism to those who contribute or those who contribute more than the minimum. the system is set-up to tiered system which doesn't help this type of attitude. It just fuels the bickering, IMO.

just one

[VoodooBlues]

that it has given a attitude of elitism to those who contribute or those who contribute more than the minimum. the system is set-up to tiered system which doesn't help this type of attitude. It just fuels the bickering, IMO.

just one

To me, i really don't care how much anybody specifically contributes or what their supposed status is. It just seems to me, that the most negative people who have the worst attitudes and argue the most on the boards are the ones who want to contribute the least amount of money. It's just a trend i've noticed. I wouldn't mind seeing those people leave but I could really care less how much they do or don't contribute. I'd just rather have less negativity, same as you.

[Seditious]

Just a note.

The Gear Page is a community of musicians. Not a 'buy/sell your stuff' place. Every complaint I have read so far is about the Emporiums.

Guess what? 9/10 reported posts were from the Emporium and today the number of reported posts from that area are way down. I'll take that tradeoff.

For every 'shooting yourself in the foot, less buyers/sellers, etc etc' is a guy/gal missing the entire point of the community. And I guess that, itself, proves the point. Many that don't like the fact that this entire thing costs a helluva lot of money to keep up never intended to have any part in a community what so ever. It's still free to post. It's still free to search with Google. And go sell something on Ebay and take your hit on their fees and paypal fees and see if you saving that $12 by not stepping up here is worth it. Or don't; because this isn't "The Gear Page Emporiums... and some forums" page.

The elitism and anti-elitism is silly through out. It's not about that stuff either. It's about a civil place to hang out and shoot the breeze with other musicians. It's guitar-oriented; but it's a community. Some folks don't like that. Or don't care. That's their loss. They are the ones that need places like this the most.

When I first came to the old PRS forums it was for the gear knowledge. It was like living in a gear cave all my life and then stepping outside to see the light. I learned so much so quickly and was so grateful for all the experience and wisdom that was passed on to me.

But what I didn't realize at first was that I had joined a family of like minded people. There was honesty and respect, wisdom and humor, caring and giving. I was proud to be a part of that, and even though it's not the same here as it was, I'm still proud to be a part of this site.

I will gladly continue to support. I can't understand why anyone who wants the full functionality of this website and knowledge within it wouldn't want to contribute.

[mlongano]

Anyone who states they cannot afford $12.00 per year needs to sell their PC and discontinue the contract with their Internet Service provider right now. How can you guys waste money surfing the net when you don't know where your next meal is coming from????

[Uma Floresta]

To me, i really don't care how much anybody specifically contributes or what their supposed status is. It just seems to me, that the most negative people who have the worst attitudes and argue the most on the boards are the ones who want to contribute the least amount of money. It's just a trend i've noticed. I wouldn't mind seeing those people leave but I could really care less how much they do or don't contribute. I'd just rather have less negativity, same as you.

Not true. There have been several VERY negative, insulting gold members in this thread. And I don't mean:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm167/seminolebabe/Goldmember.jpg

Worst. Movie. Ever.

[Seditious]

So only the people who pay(contribute) have useful information to contribute? The "bottom feeders" dont? WOW. Some interesting logic.

I said I won't miss the people who leave over this. I never said anything about the ones who don't contribute money but stay and contribute knowledge. My logic is sound. I also never said anything about bottom feeders. Please don't put words in my mouth.

[VoodooBlues]

Not true. There have been several VERY negative, insulting gold members in this thread. And I don't mean:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm167/seminolebabe/Goldmember.jpg

Worst. Movie. Ever.

Like I said, I could care less what anybody contributes. I just want less negativity. What are your ideas?

[guitarpkr67]

that it has given a attitude of elitism to those who contribute or those who contribute more than the minimum. the system is set-up to tiered system which doesn't help this type of attitude. It just fuels the bickering, IMO.

just one

I love how anyone who says anything to the people against contributing are elitists. We've always had contributing members and regular members before (which could be considered tiered) and I've never noticed any problems and I've been here a while.

[dkaplowitz]

Anyone who states they cannot afford $12.00 per year needs to sell their PC and discontinue the contract with their Internet Service provider right now. How can you guys waste money surfing the net when you don't know where your next meal is coming form????
You forget, these guys still live at home with their parents. Their next meal is coming from mom's kitchen. :D

[lhallam]

If this cuts down on some of the items for sale, I'm even more for it.

I was here for years and this years I decided to try and sell something. It was on page 5 within one day. Ridiculous.

[Bradd]

Hmm I've donated in the past but it wasn't enough to get me a contributing member title :worried... will contribute soon

[chewynodoubt]

I love how anyone who says anything to the people against contributing are elitists. We've always had contributing members and regular members before (which could be considered tiered) and I've never noticed any problems and I've been here a while.

right, but now the difference is usability of the board. there were tiers before but the differences were nothing more than having a larger PM mailbox and a custom title, now these changes bring board usability (search and emporium posting) into play. I am all for making things completely equal. one flat fee for all members no more and no less.

For some reason, I have gotten the impression that those who contribute the most and have the most posts think they know more, are in the right in every descision. I am just challenging that fact.

[amigo30]

right, but now the difference is usability of the board. there were tiers before but the differences were nothing more than having a larger PM mailbox and a custom title, now these changes bring board usability (search and emporium posting) into play. I am all for making things completely equal. one flat fee for all members no more and no less.

For some reason, I have gotten the impression that those who contribute the most and have the most posts think they know more, are in the right in every descision. I am just challenging that fact.

Man, don't you know when to give it a rest?

This privately owned board will run exactly as the private owners choose to run it. You have have no rights. This is not a democracy. You can either accept, or not accept. You can either be appreciative or you can choose not to utilize this little corner of the web.

As for "gold member" or "not gold member"...we are not a bunch of juveniles. An adult can deal with this without it crashing their world. It is a practical business decision that the owners of the site have very clearly explained. How far removed are some of you from junior high? If this sort of thing gives people the problems that some are voicing, how in the world do you function in the business world or in an adult relationship? Or with your band members for that matter?

There are 4 things that can be done. 3 out of 4 are correct answers. One is not.

1. Use it for free as it is. Log on, read the forums, talk exchange ideas..whatever you want to do.
2. Contribute and help insure the site remains in existence. A side benefit is you get a couple of extra features.
3. Not donate and whine and annoy the crap out of everyone because you can't pony up 12 bucks, but you still want everything for free.
4. Never log on here again

Really people. Be adults. This is just a web page. I happen to appreciate it. You don't have to. But if you don't, please quit fouling the water.

[jimfog]

Man, don't you know when to give it a rest?

I think that question was put to rest a LONG time ago,

:rotflmao

[benjisaynomore]

Banner ads would be fine...but doesn't that increase spyware issues and what not??? Wouldn't we see a rise in scammers on here too?

[Rik]

$12 a year is good. Skip a few happy meals. ;)

I never thought I would see avatars! I like the ability to turn them on or off. very cool. Having them on is quite funny so far!

Thanks for the hard work Admin/Mod guys.

PS.. I do enjoy reading all the predictions so far.

[Southbay Ampworks]

Frankly, I thought the simple solution was for EVERYONE to donate $1 per year. You logged on, and became a member, it was $1.

With 29,180 members (as of today), the TGP could then pay it's server fees, etc, etc. easily for the entire year.

There would also be no call for elitism, designation of who was cheap or not, class of donation distinctions or any other entitlement comments, right?

Just make every single TGP member pay $1 ($1.03 if you're using paypal to pay!) per year and be done with it. You could sell, you could search, you could bitch to your heart's content (within reason and forum rules) and everyone would be equal.

Instead, less than 8% of the TGP membership pays for everyone else to play for FREE. And that's what leads to these comments of elitism, and who knows what else.

Instead of griping about what it costs to be here, the real answer should be to find the lowest cost per member to be here.

My guess is that some would figure $1 per year is too much. :rotflmao

[Zilmo]

I'm really digging the way a lot of people must feel that the mods and admins are just plain stupid. They must be to have thought it over, received input, deliberated, and come up with a plan, right? So many of you have SOOOOOOOO much better ideas.

Jeez, just deal with it.

[Don't Post]

i sold a lot of gear to 0 & very low post count Members that are just going to leave because they have to pay too search the Emporiums for the stuff they're interested in.Bad Idea TGP!

& FYI i have at least "Gold Member Status" in donations to TGP so don't even start dog pilling on me because of that shit,just cause you can't see them in my "STATUS BAR".

[benjisaynomore]

i sold a lot of gear to 0 & very low post count Members that are just going to leave because they have to pay too search the Emporiums for the stuff they're interested in.Bad Idea TGP!

& FYI i have at least "Gold Member Status" in donations to TGP so don't even start dog pilling on me because of that shit,just cause you can't see them in my "STATUS BAR".

MODERATORS:

How hard would it be to only allow non-paying members to use the old search function JUST for the emporium?

That way you're not punishing the supporting members by diminishing potential buyers abilities to find and purchase the gear they are looking for????

[earthmud]

This is all so stupid. It's twelve dollars. I just bought an throbak ODB new for $205 shipped. Brand new they are like 230$ somthing. I've already made my 12$ back. As for status or elitism.........I really don't give a F##k. If some guy on a message board thinks he's better than me because of his member status so be it. I won't loose any sleep over it. Get over it or get out.

[rickd]

It just seems to me, that the most negative people who have the worst attitudes and argue the most on the boards are the ones who want to contribute the least amount of money. :D :D

Sorry man, this is just so funny to me. It's like saying "The people who have the biggest problem with the price of gas, bitching about it all the time, ride their bikes and won't even pay for it. Don't make no sense to me." :rotflmao

You do understand if someone has a problem with the fees WHY they won't just jump on the bandwagon right away?

[benjisaynomore]

Allow non-supporting members to use search function in emporium.

Everyone wins...they still can't post. They still can't search for other things...and have incentive to become members...Members still have advantages...anyone agree?!

[johnnyguitar]

I have read every post and will do my best to say exactly what I think and feel.......respectfully.

Some people are making a lot of assumptions without taking into account the data. I know that I'm about to repeat myself, but some are just not "getting it" or are choosing to see thingfs from a self-centered viewpoint. Pardon me while I write some random thoughts about the changes and the reasons for same.

1. What would you do if your income didn't equal the rent payment for 2 out of the past 3 months? Would you get really worried? Would you decide to do something, or would you just sit there? Our costs exceeded income for 2 of the past 3 months.

2. We have had a huge influx of members that led to an increase of 26% in essentially 4 months. The rate of growth continues to increase, not decrease.

3. Although 6000 more members joined since December, donations have remained the same as before they joined. Very few of the new members were donating.

4. We had literally just moved to a dual server setup. These weren't cheap leased servers. We went with very modern high end servers and then paid to beef up the RAM in each server and to make both speed and redundancy as good as they could be. For instance, our data server has a RAID10 configuration that utilizes 4 hard drives. Yet, having just moved to the new servers in March, our rate of growth would have had us adding even more servers within 3-4 more months........with no increase in revenue.

5. Within the past year there were several threats of lawsuits by builders. One was serious enough for us to have to get an attorney involved. I recently attempted to get liability insurance for TGP from the largest insurance broker in Colorado. Not only could they not find a company that would insure us because they have no idea what the liabilities might be (internet laws are constantly changing), but they guessed that the minimum fee per year would be $7500......if anyone would insure us. Not one threat of a lawsuit was for anything that Scott or myself wrote. The threats were about what others wrote....but it was me that had a couple of semi-sleepless nights from worrying.

6. We asked for member opinions in December on a thread that ran for quite a while and had a lot of responses. The concensus was to NOT have advertising and to charge some sort of fee. We followed what the membership seemed to want.

7. Some members are comparing TGP and how things are paid for or run with other websites. We are larger than most of those sites, meaning that we have more costs, and we are not owned by some large corporation. We have never accepted advertising because we felt that it could cause a perception that we are controlled by the people who pay for ads. I'd rather get roasted for what we are doing now than to be considered a shill for other companies.

8. Something had to give. You can't increase the size of your membership and the resulting costs without increasing your income. Almost every complaint in the posts in this thread was made by people who have never donated a penny to help keep TGP going. Where were you when I wrote that we had to get more donations? Yes, you were silent and expected others to pick up the tab. Now