Jimmy Herring 'outside' playing

[papablue]

I just picked up the old Frogwings disc, and am loving it.
I've been a huge Jimmy Herring fan for quite some time, and am doing my damndest to get some more of his style incorporated into mine.

Anywho, any tips or ideas, strategies as to how he does those crazy outside licks in his runs? Most of the time is sounds like he's playing in a pentatonic form and then blazes out the insane runs that are nowhere to be found on my guitar.

Help?

Graci

[Pedro58]

There was a Guitar Player Magazine within the last year or so that had an article on his style. It was pretty extensive and had a lot of input from Herring himself. Find that, and you might get a few clues? From what I remember, he likes to move pentatonic patterns around to fit the key/mode he wants and just "rethinks" the target tones. That way he can blaze through a familiar pattern and get outside the traditional licks.

[jzucker]

I'm not familiar with that recording but the easiest way to play out using pentatonics is to use 1/2 step up or down as approach tones. Try sequencing lines from your pentatonic and every sequence step move the line up or down a half step around the original pentatonic. You can also integrate a pentatonic scale up a minor or major 3rd away. What you want to do is superimpose a new chord progression on top of the original one, creating an alternative harmonic rhythm.

[lhallam]

Larry Carlton says something very similar to what Jack mentioned in his instruction VHS tape.

Danny Gatton said that he simply played the same scales "in the wrong key".

[jzucker]

When you play rhythm guitar do you just strum the same chord over and over or do you sometimes slide into it from above or below ala stormy monday, james brown grooves, etc? What you want to do when playing outside is to create that same feeling of integration, dissonance, resolution.

[papablue]

I saw the guitar player lesson, very informative and what I have been doing to play more out, is move my pentatonic and chord shapes up & down a step or 3, to get that different feeling, and the tension.

I guess finding my new target notes are the next step, and of course his sick ass speed.

Thanks folks

[mlynn02]

the half step approach tone idea sounds pretty much on the money to me, that's a good tip...

i've also read articles by jimmy herring where he discribed a couple of simple tricks that you can do to get outside. one is he plays a lick (maybe an easy 4 eighth-note pentatonic lick) that is in key with the music, then he repeats that same lick one half step up, then returns back to the original key. so if you do this rapidly back and forth you get a nice tension and relese effect. also he recommends trying a similar thing whereby you play a lick in key, then move the lick up three frets, then another three frets, then another three frets and then another three frets to get you back in key, one octave up. this is a trick he claims he stole from coltrane's playing. also, he indicated that you should learn to modulate up and down three frets at a time, and then back into key one octave up, without changing positions on the neck. easier said then done, jimmy!

[jzucker]

Originally posted by papablue
I saw the guitar player lesson, very informative and what I have been doing to play more out, is move my pentatonic and chord shapes up & down a step or 3, to get that different feeling, and the tension.

I guess finding my new target notes are the next step, and of course his sick ass speed.

Thanks folks

[shameless plug]
You need the 2 position speed pentatonics from my book!
[/shameless plug]
:D

[jzucker]

Originally posted by mlynn02
the half step approach tone idea sounds pretty much on the money to me, that's a good tip...

i've also read articles by jimmy herring where he discribed a couple of simple tricks that you can do to get outside. one is he plays a lick (maybe an easy 4 eighth-note pentatonic lick) that is in key with the music, then he repeats that same lick one half step up, then returns back to the original key. so if you do this rapidly back and forth you get a nice tension and relese effect. also he recommends trying a similar thing whereby you play a lick in key, then move the lick up three frets, then another three frets, then another three frets and then another three frets to get you back in key, one octave up. this is a trick he claims he stole from coltrane's playing. also, he indicated that you should learn to modulate up and down three frets at a time, and then back into key one octave up, without changing positions on the neck. easier said then done, jimmy!

That's basically what I was saying about sequencing! :)

[lhallam]

Originally posted by jzucker
[shameless plug]
You need the 2 position speed pentatonics from my book!
[/shameless plug]
:D

Shameless agreement. :)

[mlynn02]

Originally posted by jzucker
That's basically what I was saying about sequencing! :)

oh yeah, exactly, you're right. i'm a slow typist, couldn't get my post up there until after you'd submitted yours...

sequencing is a good word for it. i've dabbled with this trick and it's cool, but, i definately appreciate it most when its fairly sporadic. another guy who uses this trick a lot now is derek trucks.

he's got a long history of playing with jimmy herring, and i bet he absorbed this idea from jimmy. i don't recall hearing trucks using sequencing much on the frogwings album, but i've heard him use it more and more in the past year or so with his own band.

[gimmejava]

Originally posted by jzucker
I'm not familiar with that recording but the easiest way to play out using pentatonics is to use 1/2 step up or down as approach tones. Try sequencing lines from your pentatonic and every sequence step move the line up or down a half step around the original pentatonic. You can also integrate a pentatonic scale up a minor or major 3rd away. What you want to do is superimpose a new chord progression on top of the original one, creating an alternative harmonic rhythm.

I'm assuming (hoping) that this is covered in your book, JZ. I ordered it a couple of days ago and can't wait to dive into it.

Randy

[jzucker]

Originally posted by gimmejava
I'm assuming (hoping) that this is covered in your book, JZ. I ordered it a couple of days ago and can't wait to dive into it.

Randy

I have an 8-10 page introduction to Dodecaphonics in my book which covers these types of topics. Let me know if it answers your questions!

[Stephen Davis]

The sequencing up 3 seems to just be following a diminished idea. A fully diminished chord can be seen as a dom7b9 without a root, so think about it that way.

Also, Herring stole a LOT from Morse.

Rabbit

[fuzzbox]

who is this guy?

[HHB]

he's only the best going on right now! Herring can play the Dregs catalog note for note, so he can sound a little Morse like, but he's got his own thing going, the nicest guy you'll ever meet too

[Tag]

Originally posted by jzucker
When you play rhythm guitar do you just strum the same chord over and over or do you sometimes slide into it from above or below ala stormy monday, james brown grooves, etc?

Great way of putting it Jack. Most guys will slide up and down with chords, and even hold them for a long time (up or down a half step), but dont realize its exactly the same thing with single notes! I did the same thing years ago, until my x teacher showed me just what you explained above. Instant revelation!

[aeolian]

Originally posted by fuzzbox
who is this guy?

Get Jazz is Dead, Great Sky River (live) and put on Estimated Prophet. If all your guitars are still intact after that, you're a stronger man than I gunga-din ;)

[HHB]

Jimmy has that sense of wild that really comes through, h'ell arrange his tuners so they all point the same way and play a solo, that's a Col Bruce move, I'm not man enough to try it yet (at least in public).

[HHB]

sage advise indeed , you asked for it, and now the poor audience is in for it LOL

[Tom Gross]

Originally posted by splatt
dude:
be bold! and, why not?
you can always connect-back to the stuff-you-already-feel-confident-in, at any given point in musical time.
sometimes, the only way to find out what you *might* like to play (hear) is to actually *play* (hear) it.
dt / spltrcl

Yes, sage advice indeed.

One of things I've always thought to be important in one's musical development is to make sure to have contexts in which to do musical exploration, especially with other humans involved.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by splatt
dude:
be bold! and, why not?
you can always connect-back to the stuff-you-already-feel-confident-in, at any given point in musical time.
sometimes, the only way to find out what you *might* like to play (hear) is to actually *play* (hear) it.
dt / spltrcl
Now there's a statement worth living by!

[Jon Silberman]

This is a great thread (my favorite tips are the simple yet powerful ones). :dude

[jzucker]

See my other thread on shawn lane playing out.

Shawn Lane took the Howard Roberts Sonic Shapes idea and implemented it a warp-speed.

He took simple patterns and moved them around the fingerboard chromatically.

Simply amazing playing and concepts. Too bad he was virtually unknown...

[Unburst]

Originally posted by splatt
dude:
sometimes, the only way to find out what you *might* like to play (hear) is to actually *play* (hear) it.
dt / spltrcl

"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid"-Goethe (via "Almost Famous")

[vladorg]

Herrring is the man!He does great stuff especially on the "Endangered Species" and "Project Z" Cds.He has his own unique style but you can still hear the influences-Steve Morse is one and as far as outside playing goes he"stole" all those concepts from Scott Henderson.After all Jimmy studied with and is a big fan of Scott.BTW,IMHO Henderson's outside playing in the jazz/rock/blues/fusion vein is second to none.He plays some of the hippest stuff I've heard-check both his instructional videos they are incredible.

Vlad

[jzucker]

Originally posted by vladorg
Herrring is the man!He does great stuff especially on the "Endangered Species" and "Project Z" Cds.He has his own unique style but you can still hear the influences-Steve Morse is one and as far as outside playing goes he"stole" all those concepts from Scott Henderson.After all Jimmy studied with and is a big fan of Scott.BTW,IMHO Henderson's outside playing in the jazz/rock/blues/fusion vein is second to none.He plays some of the hippest stuff I've heard-check both his instructional videos they are incredible.

Vlad

OK! Where can I hear this stuff?:)

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by jzucker
OK! Where can I hear this stuff?:)
http://www.guitar9.com/projectz.html

[vladorg]

Also

http://www.guitar9.com/endangeredspecies.html

Have fun,Jack!

[Tom Gross]

His interplay with Sipe on Project Z is just awesome.

[vladorg]

Originally posted by splatt
..... actually, scott came in third place to lennox lewis & lance armstrong at the preakness, last year.
dt / spltrcl

okay, okay..... i'm sorry for the early morning sarcasm & my potentially overt literalism, but.....
i react negatively to 'second to none' & 'best in the world' type statements, vis a vis the ephemeral & subjective qualities of music.
(besides the fact that there is not a race-for-musical-quality-in-progress, excepting ---of course--- the races for the undying 'loyalty' of today's 'fans', the race for media attention, the race for record sales & concert appearances.....)
but, to continue in that illusory, competitive vein: if there *were* a race-for-quality-in-progress:
how could one intelligently consider him to be 'second to none';
does that not imply the (impossibly unrealistic) presumption of the judges having heard every player in that idiom?
eg, have the judges seen/heard marc ducret, raoul bjorkenheim, terje rypdal, t. mu–oz, nguyen lŽ, eivind aarset, or any of the players that helped/influenced scott to become the player that he is, etc?
again, sorry.
i simply have to wonder.
i'd lighten up, if i could, but.....

Dave, relax! I didn't mean to imply that it was a competition and Scott Henderson was the best at it.Perhaps I didn't put it right but what I meant was that Henderson's outside licks and ideas are amongst the best I've heard.Hope I made myself clearer-kinda hard @ 8 a.m. and I don't drink coffee either;)

Vlad

[jzucker]

OK, I'm listening to Jimmy Right now. He sounds great though I've heard nothing outside in any of the clips that are up on the guitar9 website. It all sounds pretty diatonic to the key to me.

Can you point out a specific piece and location within the clip where there's some outside stuff?

[vladorg]

Originally posted by jzucker
OK, I'm listening to Jimmy Right now. He sounds great though I've heard nothing outside in any of the clips that are up on the guitar9 website. It all sounds pretty diatonic to the key to me.

Can you point out a specific piece and location within the clip where there's some outside stuff?

Jack,I haven't listened to the clips on Guitar9 but yes he does play outside sometimes ,however, his playing is diatonic most of the time. If you want I can probably browse through my samples and e-mail you something.

Vlad

[Tag]

Originally posted by jzucker
OK, I'm listening to Jimmy Right now. He sounds great though I've heard nothing outside in any of the clips that are up on the guitar9 website. It all sounds pretty diatonic to the key to me.

Can you point out a specific piece and location within the clip where there's some outside stuff?

I have a lot of his stuff and nothing really excites me at all either. Great player for sure, mostly diatonic with a few outside ideas here and there. I think its the fact he brings it into a more straight ahead rock idiom that makes guys think he is playing so out. Just mho. I really tried to get into the guy, but he just doesnt move me. Just personal taste I guess. :)

[jzucker]

OK, Vlad sent me a full clip of raging torent. (Thanks Vlad!)

This is not outside playing. This is an example of an altered dominant approach with 7th mode of melodic minor and diminished scales.

Outside playing is more typically representative of superimposing actual chords or progressions on top of the original structure.

For examples of this, check out Coltrane's Meditations, Ornette Coleman's body of work or Pat Metheny's synth playing where at times he embodies the vibe of Ornette.

I agree Herring sounds great but just wanted to correct a discrepancy in terminology.

By the way, the outside playing I was referring to in the Shawn Lane thread is a true outside approach where random fingerboard patternsn are moved around through a chord.

Jaz

[johnc]

Originally posted by jzucker
OK, I'm listening to Jimmy Right now. He sounds great though I've heard nothing outside in any of the clips that are up on the guitar9 website. It all sounds pretty diatonic to the key to me.

Can you point out a specific piece and location within the clip where there's some outside stuff?

As a result of this thread, I recently went back and listened to a lot of my CD's that feature Herring. His playing seems pretty much diatonic to me to. There are a couple of places where he hits some odd sounding sequence of notes that sound really cool on some of his live material (Jazz Is Dead, Frogwings). But he definitely wouldn't be my poster boy for someone who plays outside a lot. He sounds very pentatonic oriented with a background in rock and blues. He also sounds like he picks every note (minimal hammer-ons and pull-offs). His picking style reminds me of Steve Morse.

[gimmejava]

He is a Steve Morse disciple. He made a comment in a magazine artilcle(guitarone) that he had to force himself to not play like Morse. He grew up in an area, South Carolina I believe, that was a major tour stop for the Dregs. He said he made every show. But, whether he plays outside or in, he still is one major mofo of a player.

[papablue]

Ok I'm with you that he's not a real 'outside' player. My mistaken terminology.

But if he is more of a pentatonic player, what the hell is he doing that I'm not? I've seen some of his lessons where he says to move the pentatonic shape up 1 1/2 steps or only a half step to create tension, but on the whole this isn't really getting me as close to his style as I'd like to be. ANy more suggestions?

I was doing some research on therhombus.com regarding the melodic minor scale, as suggested above in the post but am still looking for more suggestions as to how to get closer to his playing. Any other suggestions???
Or what is it about Morse's playing that I could pickup that Jimmy uses?

[Tag]

Originally posted by papablue
Ok I'm with you that he's not a real 'outside' player. My mistaken terminology.

But if he is more of a pentatonic player, what the hell is he doing that I'm not? I've seen some of his lessons where he says to move the pentatonic shape up 1 1/2 steps or only a half step to create tension, but on the whole this isn't really getting me as close to his style as I'd like to be. ANy more suggestions?

I was doing some research on therhombus.com regarding the melodic minor scale, as suggested above in the post but am still looking for more suggestions as to how to get closer to his playing. Any other suggestions???
Or what is it about Morse's playing that I could pickup that Jimmy uses?

Take some jazz lessons and learn to improvise on a few standards. Learn your flat 5 and minor 3rd subs, and what Herring does will seem extremely basic. I promise! :) When you hear him play what you think is scales, its most likely just a few cliche bebop lines. You can relate them to scales at certain points, but thats not really where they are derived from.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by papablue
Ok I'm with you that he's not a real 'outside' player. My mistaken terminology.

But if he is more of a pentatonic player, what the hell is he doing that I'm not? I've seen some of his lessons where he says to move the pentatonic shape up 1 1/2 steps or only a half step to create tension, but on the whole this isn't really getting me as close to his style as I'd like to be. ANy more suggestions?

I was doing some research on therhombus.com regarding the melodic minor scale, as suggested above in the post but am still looking for more suggestions as to how to get closer to his playing. Any other suggestions???
Or what is it about Morse's playing that I could pickup that Jimmy uses?

I think I already answered this question. On the clips I've heard, he's using 7th mode of melodic minor, half/whole diminished scale, etc. The 1.5 steps up is a technique is a common one pioneered by Bird and perfected by Coltrane. Basically, it amounts to moving dom7 chords in min3rd intervals so over C7 you can play over C7, Eb7, Gb7 and A7.

I have a discussion of this topic in detail in my Sheets of Sound book...It's called Dodecaphonics.

[papablue]

"some jazz lessons and learn to improvise on a few standards. Learn your flat 5 and minor 3rd subs, "

Ok, so without lessons are there some online resources that you could point me in? Or any other topics that may cover this on the Gear Page? And jzucker, I'd love to buy your book, but I know I don't have the money or time now to spend with it right now.

Thanks

[johnc]

Originally posted by papablue
Ok I'm with you that he's not a real 'outside' player. My mistaken terminology.

But if he is more of a pentatonic player, what the hell is he doing that I'm not? I've seen some of his lessons where he says to move the pentatonic shape up 1 1/2 steps or only a half step to create tension, but on the whole this isn't really getting me as close to his style as I'd like to be. ANy more suggestions?

I was doing some research on therhombus.com regarding the melodic minor scale, as suggested above in the post but am still looking for more suggestions as to how to get closer to his playing. Any other suggestions???
Or what is it about Morse's playing that I could pickup that Jimmy uses?

First of all, I'm not a schooled musician like jzucker and some of the other guys on this board. I've taken a fair amount of lessons and have read a lot and listen to what others have to say and then put two and two together so that it makes sense in my own mind. Which might end up being totally wrong. :)

But when I say Jimmy has a pentatonic sound, I don't mean that he restricts himself to just those five notes. It's obvious that he embelishes it. For example, I've heard him throw in a 2nd or a 9th from time to time. For example if your playing a minor pentatonic in the key of A, I've heard Jimmy alternate between the 5th (an E on the 2nd string fith fret) and a 9th (a B on the 1st string seventh fret). I've also noticed that he will throw in some arpeagiated (sp?) lines and sometimes he goes into this "schizo" mode of string skipping.

I recommend that you get one of those CD players where you can slow down his playing and isolate what he's doing 10 seconds at a time. There's probably not a word or quick way anyone could tell you on a message board how to do what he does. And giving that its improvised and Jimmy pushing his creativity he might not even be able to tell you what he was doing either.

The other thing that I notice about Jimmy and Steve Morse is that they seem to pretty much pick every note. I believe Steve exclusively uses alternate picking from what I saw in a video. It takes alot of practice to play the scales as fast as they do exclusively using alternate picking and it has a different sound as compared to sweep picking. To me it has more of a bluegrass sound to it.

[Charles]

I'll take jimmy herring over shawn lane any time.

[HHB]

Originally posted by gimmejava
He is a Steve Morse disciple. He made a comment in a magazine artilcle(guitarone) that he had to force himself to not play like Morse. He grew up in an area, South Carolina I believe, that was a major tour stop for the Dregs. He said he made every show. But, whether he plays outside or in, he still is one major mofo of a player.

thats NORTH Carolina, please ;)

[vladorg]

Originally posted by Charles
I'll take jimmy herring over shawn lane any time.

Hmmm,this is like comparing apples with oranges....I like 'em both just depends on what time of the year:D


Vlad

[vladorg]

Hey Jack,

sorry for the terminology misunderstanding.I generally think of "outside playing" as playing notes that are not contained in the diatonic scale but your definition is theoretically the one.

Regarding JohnC's comment that Jimmy is a pentatonic player I can only say I'm not sure about that because in the major scale,the melodic or the harmonic minor there are several minor pentatonics within the scale and pretty much all of these can be played and sound good over a certain chord or harmony with the right phrasing.For me though this is not "pentatonic playing" as in lets say someone who plays only the A minor pentatonic over a 12-bar blues in A.However,this is a long topic and i'll try to elaborate later if Jack doesn't do it by then;)


Vlad

[papablue]

I hope this isn't getting too long to disband, cause it's keepin me goin.

Anyway, I've found myself, that if I play off the 2 and 6 of a given key, I can grab some of the notes he is using and find some of the phrasing. My other guitar player and I figured out Kickin Bach, that he does with Derek Trucks, and have noticed that his phrasing is quite unique as well.

There's just not really any video clips where I can really see what he's doing to nail anything down.

Also, does anyone know if it's rumor or fact that he taught at GIT? I thought he just attended.

And I'd take Jimmy Herring over anyone out there, save Derek.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by vladorg
Hey Jack,

sorry for the terminology misunderstanding.I generally think of "outside playing" as playing notes that are not contained in the diatonic scale but your definition is theoretically the one.

Vlad
I'm there. Sorta, to me outside is any non-scale tone within the progression.
Now from where I'm standing a major pentatonic down a up a half step is the same gives you the b9, #9, 11, #5, 7...that's about as altered dominant as it gets unless you replace the 11 with the b5. Or take Shawn lane's stacked 3rd patter...
1, b9, #9, 3, 11, b5, 5, #5, 13, 7, maj7.
That's a chromatic scale with the nat. missing.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by papablue
I hope this isn't getting too long to disband, cause it's keepin me goin.

Anyway, I've found myself, that if I play off the 2 and 6 of a given key, I can grab some of the notes he is using and find some of the phrasing. My other guitar player and I figured out Kickin Bach, that he does with Derek Trucks, and have noticed that his phrasing is quite unique as well.

There's just not really any video clips where I can really see what he's doing to nail anything down.

Also, does anyone know if it's rumor or fact that he taught at GIT? I thought he just attended.

And I'd take Jimmy Herring over anyone out there, save Derek.
I believe he taught at AMI in Atlanta.

[johnc]

Originally posted by papablue
Anyway, I've found myself, that if I play off the 2 and 6 of a given key, I can grab some of the notes he is using and find some of the phrasing. My other guitar player and I figured out Kickin Bach, that he does with Derek Trucks, and have noticed that his phrasing is quite unique as well.


I believe if your playing off the 2, that is sort of like playing in the Dorian mode; and if your playing off the 6, that is sort of like playing in the Aeolian mode.

Let's look at the notes that make up these modes:

Dorian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aeolian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7

Minor Pentatonic: 1, b3, 4, 5, b7

See how similar these all are. What I was saying was that I've heard Jimmy throw in a 2nd or a 9th (these being the same note) in with the Pentatonic scale. When you do this you are one note from playing either the Dorian or Aeolian mode. If you add the b6 you get the Aeolian mode for more of a minor tonality or if you add the 6 you get the Dorian mode for a more major feel.

Now my question is, What is the 7th mode of a melodic minor scale? Is it either Dorian or Aeolian or something totally different?

[jzucker]

Originally posted by johnc
Now my question is, What is the 7th mode of a melodic minor scale? Is it either Dorian or Aeolian or something totally different?

It's something different.

1,b2,b3,b4,b5,b6,b7

(The b4 is effectively the major 3rd)

Basically, it outlines a 7b9#9b5#5 chord. (ALT chord)

He also uses the diminished scale which is basically the same scale except that it has a natural 6 instead of b6 and has the natural 5th as well as the b5 (8 tone scale)

Jaz

[papablue]

Can you post an example of what this chord, 7b9#9b5#5 is or would look like?

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by papablue
Can you post an example of what this chord, 7b9#9b5#5 is or would look like?
An altered chord does not have to have every note altered... Actaually when a dom7 chord is about to resolve to a I chord is a good time to play those.

For an instant example of altered dominat sounds...Hendrix chord... 7#9

Now Jack, do you actually think of it this way? Becuase I sure look at it as dorian with a #7 up a fret.

[Tom Gross]

Originally posted by jzucker
It's something different.

1,b2,b3,b4,b5,b6,b7

(The b4 is effectively the major 3rd)

Basically, it outlines a 7b9#9b5#5 chord. (ALT chord)

He also uses the diminished scale which is basically the same scale except that it has a natural 6 instead of b6 and has the natural 5th as well as the b5 (8 tone scale)

Jaz

I think of it as mel. minor 7th mode ("super Locrian" to some).
I got this from Emily Remler - she's all over this on her 2nd video for alt doms that are gonna resolve.

But it doesn't really matter how you get there, does it? :)

[johnc]

Originally posted by jzucker
It's something different.

1,b2,b3,b4,b5,b6,b7

(The b4 is effectively the major 3rd)




Wow! Now that's interesting. It's like taking a major scale and flatting every note except the 1.

Is this type of stuff in your book? If so, I might have to get me a copy too.

[Tag]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
alt doms that are gonna resolve.

That is in in a nutshell. When the chord is a functioning Dom 7 chord, all those notes sound beautiful and "in". Played on a static dom 7 (as in the Hendrix #9), they have to be used with more care. For my taste, on a static say A 7#9 chord, I would use E altered to get "out" a lot more than I would use A altered tones. This would be superimposing a chord progression (as simple as it is...V-I) over the static chord, and the notes would pull you back to the A7#9 tonic chord.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by johnc
Wow! Now that's interesting. It's like taking a major scale and flatting every note except the 1.

Is this type of stuff in your book? If so, I might have to get me a copy too.

Yep, that stuff is in chapter 8 though it's not a major part of the book's coverage.

[Jon Silberman]

This thread is cool, I feel kinda like I'm hanging out with Einstein, Pauli, and Hawking, they're discussing physics, and I get to listen. ;)

Seriously, I have copped some interesting practical stuff from here that I'm already using, thanks again, everyone.

[fyler]

...to backtrack several pages, splatt mentioned marc ducret- his playing is phenomenal. he plays in tim berne's awesome Science Friction, amongst other things. he's kind of a combination of bill frisell, fred frith, and derek bailey - with his own unique flavoring. great.

[reentune]

Jimmy is a buddy of mine.
He attended GIT in L.A. He was the "best guitarist" (or somesuch) winner for his particular year.
He taught at Atlanta Institute of Music around '89, '90.
During that time he was playing with Col. Bruce Hampton and the Aquarium Rescue Unit with Oteil Burbridge, Matt Mundy and Jeff Sipe among others. That was a hot band. There's a live album (the better of the two) and a studio album called Mirrors of Embarassment. Both are great, though.
He's a real sweetheart.
I saw him years after leaving ATL with Jazz is Dead at the Bottom Line in NYC.
When I heard him I shed tears it was so amazing and beautiful.
Needless to say, Jimmy is no joke.
He's been my favorite electric guitarist since I met him.

[boog204]

my band opened for project z w/ jimmy a few years back. his playing was out of this world. it was so good that i think he lost most of the audience except for the guitar players. correct if i'm wrong but i believe project z was basically just an improv band where they just jammed and jimmy had free reigns to just go nuts. that he did. he was a hell of a nice guy too.

[papablue]

Any chance you guys have any direct pointers from him, or could just inject his playing into my hands?

I love his playing and tone, absolutely blows me away.

[boog204]

i wish i had pointers since i've been trying to emulate him for about 3-4 years now. there's a few "lessons" on wholetone which supposedly is indicative of his style as well as the guitar player lesson which i believe was posted in this thread. if i could be any guitarist ever, it would be him.

[jzucker]

I hear more super locrian and diminished scale than whole-tone but I think Tag's write. Take some jazz lessons and learn about jazz chord progressions. Jimmy's a great player but I don't hear him doing anything technically that the average player couldn't pull off. It's not like Shawn Lane where the stuff is just too fast and ridiculous to play by anyone other than him...

[papablue]

Would it be out of the question when looking for a teacher to say, "get me to play like Jimmy", besides his speed, but the other aspects of his playing?

Does such a teacher exist?

[jzucker]

Originally posted by papablue
Would it be out of the question when looking for a teacher to say, "get me to play like Jimmy", besides his speed, but the other aspects of his playing?

Does such a teacher exist?

I don't think it'd be out of the question but I'd question the teacher who would take on a student given that criteria. My philosophy has always been to give the student the tools necessary to understand and grasp any technique you are confronted with. The specific application of that knowledge towards a particular style is best left to the student's self-study. Not to say that I don't help students cop some of their favorite licks but it's within a broader context.

Really, what Jimmy is doing is not rocket science. I believe with a little knowledge of jazz theory you would be able to make sense of what he is doing... Don't get me wrong. I'm not taking anything away from Jimmy. He's a wonderful player.

Jaz

[papablue]

I hear ya.
But can you give me some direction as to what I should be investigating? Someone before mentioned the flat 5 chord substitions, and I was able to learn that.
Do you have some other topics/ideas that I could look around for and add to my toolbox?
Or be able to approach a teacher and say I want to learn this this and this....

what falls under 'jazz theory' that I should be looking for?

[littlemoon]

Originally posted by papablue
"some jazz lessons and learn to improvise on a few standards. Learn your flat 5 and minor 3rd subs, "

Ok, so without lessons are there some online resources that you could point me in? Or any other topics that may cover this on the Gear Page? And jzucker, I'd love to buy your book, but I know I don't have the money or time now to spend with it right now.

Thanks Try this: http://jazz-primer.com/Subs-Level-One.html

And this: http://guitar-masters.com/Subst/index.html

littlemoon

[jzucker]

Originally posted by littlemoon
Try this: http://jazz-primer.com/Subs-Level-One.html

And this: http://guitar-masters.com/Subst/index.html

littlemoon

Hmmm - I don't like that chord sub page. I would not recommend that as an intro.

[littlemoon]

Originally posted by jzucker
Hmmm - I don't like that chord sub page. I would not recommend that as an intro. As always, Jaz, I'd love to learn more about why you don't like it. Did you see some misinformation or is the approach to the subject misleading or what? I'm just an entry level theorist; so if you opine that the page does more harm than good, I'd be thankful for the advice.

littlemoon

[lhallam]

Originally posted by jzucker
Hmmm - I don't like that chord sub page. I would not recommend that as an intro.

I'll bite, what don't you like?

[Lucidology]

Originally Posted by Jon Silberman http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=391402#post391402)

This thread is cool, I feel kinda like I'm hanging out with Einstein, Pauli, and Hawking, they're discussing physics, and I get to listen. ;)

Seriously, I have copped some interesting practical stuff from here that I'm already using, thanks again, everyone.



This is surely a good one....

HEY GUYS... let's talk about playing outside instead of always having to come in side...

(maybe when I get back from my gig tonight... more folk might be hanging out her for a change..:-)

[Clifford-D]

See my other thread on shawn lane playing out.

Shawn Lane took the Howard Roberts Sonic Shapes idea and implemented it a warp-speed.

He took simple patterns and moved them around the fingerboard chromatically.

Simply amazing playing and concepts. Too bad he was virtually unknown...
I dig that you mentioned Howard Roberts Sonic Shapes concept.

Where is this earlier post? I'm totally interested in this.

Thanks Jack, you're very helpful.

[landru64]

Would it be out of the question when looking for a teacher to say, "get me to play like Jimmy", besides his speed, but the other aspects of his playing?

Does such a teacher exist?

nobody can get you to play in any certain way. you are the only one who can get yourself to play like someone. the question in my opinion, then, once you get there, is why?:

- there is only one jimmy herring. why do we need another one? every time i hear some guy in LA who sounds like version 1.2 of allan holdsworth, this is my question.

- the sum total of what makes a jimmy is far more than the rudiments and theory behind what he does. it's made up of his heart and soul, his vulnerabilities, his hubris, his everything that makes him human. so, then, i would argue, the best you can ever be is an inauthentic copy of someone like him.

so, then, i ask again, why? go get a teacher who will help you be yourself and borrow what you need from jimmy's techniques and approach in order to be yourself. i think that will make the world a better place!

a side story: i was driving somewhere with dave liebman a couple of years ago and he popped in the miles tribute done by jeff richman that he appears on. i think he appears on the track jimmy's on, but it was done in overdub, so he never met, nor had known much about jimmy. he said to me while listening, "hey man, if you ever talk to that guy, tell him he's a bad motherf*&@#r."

[Leucadian]

This is surely a good one....

HEY GUYS... let's talk about playing outside instead of always having to come in side...

(maybe when I get back from my gig tonight... more folk might be hanging out her for a change..:-)

...I noticed that Jimmy wears flannel shirts when playing outside...a baseball hat too! Why? It keeps you warmer! Is this what you mean Joseph?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhoBurEAGbE&mode=related&search=:cool:...lots of cool diminished ideas at the beginning...

...or do you mean this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vUKQfrGwhc...here he explains how how to get a "dark" or "spooky" vibe by combining A and Eb triads...again...derived from diminished...

...:cool:...

[lalaland]

nobody can get you to play in any certain way. you are the only one who can get yourself to play like someone. the question in my opinion, then, once you get there, is why?:

- there is only one jimmy herring. why do we need another one? every time i hear some guy in LA who sounds like version 1.2 of allan holdsworth, this is my question.

- the sum total of what makes a jimmy is far more than the rudiments and theory behind what he does. it's made up of his heart and soul, his vulnerabilities, his hubris, his everything that makes him human. so, then, i would argue, the best you can ever be is an inauthentic copy of someone like him.

so, then, i ask again, why? go get a teacher who will help you be yourself and borrow what you need from jimmy's techniques and approach in order to be yourself. i think that will make the world a better place!

a side story: i was driving somewhere with dave liebman a couple of years ago and he popped in the miles tribute done by jeff richman that he appears on. i think he appears on the track jimmy's on, but it was done in overdub, so he never met, nor had known much about jimmy. he said to me while listening, "hey man, if you ever talk to that guy, tell him he's a bad <A href="mailto:motherf*&@#r."[/quote">motherf*&@#r."

If you actually want to play like someone - and trust me, I've had this bug too many times in my short amount of times playing guitar - you have to find out what kind of picks they use. Then what kind of strings. Then start reading interviews with them. What's their philosophy? Where'd they grow up? Look at pictures of them. How do the hold their guitar? How do they dress? How do they talk? How do they stand? Do it ALL like them.

That's the only way...

Probably not a good thing, but I've done it with 2 or 3 guys in my short time-frame of playing the guitar. Mabye in another 10 years I'll get over it. I hope! :rolleyes:


Jamie

[landru64]

If you actually want to play like someone - and trust me, I've had this bug too many times in my short amount of times playing guitar - you have to find out what kind of picks they use. Then what kind of strings. Then start reading interviews with them. What's their philosophy? Where'd they grow up? Look at pictures of them. How do the hold their guitar? How do they dress? How do they talk? How do they stand? Do it ALL like them.

That's the only way...

Probably not a good thing, but I've done it with 2 or 3 guys in my short time-frame of playing the guitar. Mabye in another 10 years I'll get over it. I hope! :rolleyes:


Jamie

this is a disturbing post :D

[Lucidology]

...I noticed that Jimmy wears flannel shirts when playing outside...a baseball hat too! Why? It keeps you warmer! Is this what you mean Joseph?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhoBurEAGbE&mode=related&search=:cool:...
:cool:...


Dude Leucadian, you are always so on to where I'm coming from ... :YinYang

[gennation]

I did a little tute on "that Jimmy sound" stuff. Much of the stuff I hear is H-W scales, b5 sub scales, etc...

http://gennation.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=46

I still need to put audio down for it, but jut vamp in A7 play A Mixo and A Blues lines and step out with the A H-W scale. There's a BUNCH of A H-W scale examples at that link.

Enjoy!

[lalaland]

this is a disturbing post :D

Its the truf'. I wouldn't speak it if it wasn't the truf'.

Jamie

[hottub]

This thread is cool, I feel kinda like I'm hanging out with Einstein, Pauli, and Hawking, they're discussing physics, and I get to listen. ;)

Seriously, I have copped some interesting practical stuff from here that I'm already using, thanks again, everyone.


LOL! I couldn't have said it better Jon. Most of the complex terminology flys right past me, but I've certainly taken away enough 'methods' from this thread to make my playing "sound" more interesting... ;) And I do appreciate that!

[hottub]

I did a little tute on "that Jimmy sound" stuff. Much of the stuff I hear is H-W scales, b5 sub scales, etc...

http://gennation.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=46

I still need to put audio down for it, but jut vamp in A7 play A Mixo and A Blues lines and step out with the A H-W scale. There's a BUNCH of A H-W scale examples at that link.

Enjoy!



Mike, thanks for that link!

[guitbeef]

I did a little tute on "that Jimmy sound" stuff. Much of the stuff I hear is H-W scales, b5 sub scales, etc...

http://gennation.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=46

I still need to put audio down for it, but jut vamp in A7 play A Mixo and A Blues lines and step out with the A H-W scale. There's a BUNCH of A H-W scale examples at that link.

Enjoy!

Very very cool, thanks!