Software Speaker Sim or Palmer PDI-03 [Archive]

TheJudge

06-09-2008, 02:38 PM

Like many others, I find myself in a living situation where I am unable to realistically mic a guitar speaker. So, I need a speakerless recording situation. I use clean tones, blues tones (tubes just beginning to break up) through 80's style, big-hair rock. There are many posts here already covering this topic, but what is the current take on this issue?

I am lucky in that one of my amps (Aiken Invader MkI) has an XLR direct out with speaker simulation built in. According to the documentation, it is supposed to model the frequency response of an SM57 and a Celestion Greenback speaker. It sounds pretty good, but I am wondering if I might be missing out on something better or more versatile.

It seems that there are two options, which are either hardware speaker sims or software speaker sims. With hardware, it appears that the Palmer PDI-03 is the one to use. So I suppose I could take a cord from the speaker out on my Invader and run it into the Palmer, which provides a load and speaker sim, and be good to go. My question is...would it really provide me with anything substantially better than what I am getting using the Invader's built-in XLR out with speaker emulation? I know I could just buy a unity and try it out, but I am curious to hear some opinions first, since the Palmer is not inexpensive.

The software option would require running a cord from the speaker line out into my DAW and then using something like Guitar Rig or Revalver or other software speaker simulator.

There are many threads on this topic floating around here, but I am curious what the current status is for speaker sims.

What do some of you think is the best sounding solution?

Thanks for your thoughts.

elambo

06-09-2008, 03:39 PM

I've tried all of them (harware and software) except for the new SPL Transducer, and the best without question has been the PDI-03. It's friendly to any type of amp. Don't bother with the 04 - it's nice, and reminiscent of the 03, but breaks up easily and just doesn't sound quite as legit.

Digital sims sound... digital. Indeed they're getting better as technology advances, but they're still not there. Even the Axe-FX, which I think is the best digital has to offer at the moment, can't touch a great tube amp with a PDI-03.

Denyle_Guitars

06-09-2008, 03:56 PM

You can download Boogex VST and play around with it. It's free and very tweakable so you might find something useful in there. I've never had much luck with any amp sim, hardware or software. http://www.voxengo.com/product/boogex/

Audioholic

06-09-2008, 04:00 PM

I really like the 03, use it all the time, I like to use it in conjunction with a mic'd cab, though it works better for somethings, and just ok for others. The SPL looks like it has more options then the Palmer, and I was going to get it instead, but the price tag, and great customer service from the palmer crew made me stick with the 003.

The nice thing about using amp sims is that you will get more options as far as sound, but if you get one, use something that will allow custom IR's, such as revalver.

TheJudge

06-09-2008, 04:54 PM

Thanks for the replies so far.

As far as the amp sims go, it would be used merely for the speaker emulation. I would send the direct signal from my amp into my DAW and use the software based speaker emulation.

Would some of you still go with the hardware, Palmer PDI-03 solution for speaker emulation?

Thanks.

elambo

06-09-2008, 05:49 PM

If there's no load with the output from your amp (i.e. if it's line-level), then what you want is the Palmer PDI-09. It's just cabinet emulation without the load box. And in fact, the 03 won't even accept a line-level input, so you'd HAVE to use the speaker output with that one. And the 09 is MUCH less expensive.

BUT, I believe that part of the magic of the 03 is entire circuit, so having another box act as a power soak might not give you the best sound. For a while I had a Hot Plate acting as the power soak, then sending its line-level output to a Palmer 09, and while it sounded good it still didn't compare to the 03 acting as an all-in-one.

Denyle_Guitars

06-09-2008, 06:32 PM

For the 80's rock thing, check out the ADA microcab II. I had one for a while and it nailed the 80's hairband stuff. You could push in multiple buttons too, as I discovered one day, for different sounds. For a short time, my recording chain was a Hafler tube preamp, Ibanez UE400 and the ADA Microcab II. Talk about an 80's flashback. :roll

cochese

06-10-2008, 11:26 AM

I did a couple of clips a few years ago for Guytron where I ran the line out of the amp into my Boss GT5 and "only" used the speaker simulation circuit. It worked better than the H&K Red Box, the Digital Music box as well as the Groove Tubes Speaker emulation circuit. I have not tried the Palmer stuff though Satriani and countless others use them.
http://www.guytron.com/images/mp3/thrilltron.mp3
http://www.guytron.com/images/mp3/longtron.mp3

I'm not sure how the circuit on the Aiken works. You would still need to run the amp into a loud (which the Guytron has built in) so you can push the output satge of your amp. You can use a THD Hotplate set to load for this.

The clips I've heard of the Axe-FX sound great but it's going to be cheaper using what you have as opposed to buying that unit.

Steven_K

12-09-2008, 12:11 PM

funkycam

12-09-2008, 12:25 PM

I haven't tried one of these, but I know there are some TGPers using them:
http://www.jlhproducts.com/axetrak/

kludge

12-09-2008, 01:11 PM

A full-power load box like the Palmer will almost certainly sound better than software, imho. That being said, a high quality direct box will do wonders for the sound of your amp sims. I think part of the reason the amp sims don't sound good to people is that many people have crappy direct in sounds. Would you run through a $49 Behringer mixer to your amp and expect great results? If not, why do you think your amp sim software would be any happier with it? Drop a couple hundred bucks on a nice Radial box or Groove Tubes Brick or something, and you'll hear the difference. Buying a FMR RNP preamp was the best thing I ever did for my direct sound.

Bussman

12-09-2008, 01:14 PM

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I am interested in these same issues. With the Palmer PDI-09 - could you run your amp straight into it and then the "thru "output into a hot plate on the dummy load mode with nothing connected to the hot plate? Then the hot plate wouldn't be at all affecting the tone coming out of the PDI-09?

...

The hot plate replaces the speaker, rather than running the line out of the hot plate into the PDI-09? Would that get closer to the PDI-03 at a fraction of the cost?

The "problem" is that the amp's output section is very sensitive to the type of load. It doesn't matter where the PDI-09 is in the chain (the impedance of those type of devices is so high as to be negligible), the output section of the tube amp is still reacting to the main load (in your case: the Hotplate). The other way you describe (Hotplate line out -> PDI-09) would not be very good as the PDI-09 is heavily padded (attenuated).

FWIW, the sound of an amp recorded silently thru this kind of set-up is totally different from listening to the amp thru speakers "live" in the room. Recording an amp thru a mic and listening to it in the room are two different things anyway, so the set-up you describe may just serve your silent recording needs perfectly (or at least adequately). Just give it a try and let your ears be the judge.

Steven_K

12-09-2008, 01:19 PM

"The "problem" is that the amp's output section is very sensitive to the type of load. It doesn't matter where the PDI-09 is in the chain (the impedance of those type of devices is so high as to be negligible), the output section of the tube amp is still reacting to the main load (in your case: the Hotplate)."

Sure, but I can't see the difference between using the hot plate as a load before the PDI-09 then running the line out into the PDI-09, or using the through line of the PDI-09 and then into the hot plate on a load. I'd want to try both ways, and want to make sure neither will damage the output transformer on my amp. I can't see a reason it would, though.

Of course, I'm not at all expecting the same sound, but a good sound with nice characteristics. I often like the dryer DI guitar sound. My main use will be for practicing with headphones at night, and this looks perfect.

Bussman

12-09-2008, 01:24 PM

Sure, but I can't see the difference between using the hot plate as a load before the PDI-09 then running the line out into the PDI-09, or using the through line of the PDI-09 and then into the hot plate on a load. I'd want to try both ways, and want to make sure neither will damage the output transformer on my amp. I can't see a reason it would, though.

I edited my post above (as you were typing I guess) to address this.

Of course, I'm not at all expecting the same sound, but a good sound with nice characteristics. I often like the dryer DI guitar sound. My main use will be for practicing with headphones at night, and this looks perfect.

I use an H&K Redbox to do just that. Keeps the wife and kids happy. Have fun.

Bussman

12-09-2008, 01:28 PM

Just checked the specs from Palmer. The PDI-09's pad can be bypassed and it will work with line level signals, something the Redbox won't do. Cool, now I have to get one. Hahaha.

btg

12-09-2008, 02:02 PM

I use the PDI-09 in conjunction with a 5E3 Deluxe and a Weber Micro Mass. I place the PDI-09 between the amp and the mass and run an XLR cable to my mixer seems to work better this way. I have tried using the line out on the Mass into the PDI-09 and was not as pleased with the sound. I have also used a Universal Audio Solo 610 and a preamp going into the PDI-09 and did not get that great of a sound.

If someone else has some audio clips of recordings done with a PDI-09 or PDI-03 I would like to hear them to compare what I am getting. My sounds for practice but in no way sound like a real amp. To my ears the PDI-09 sound artificial on the high end. Any thoughts or suggestions.

elambo

12-09-2008, 04:41 PM

The hot plate replaces the speaker, rather than running the line out of the hot plate into the PDI-09? Would that get closer to the PDI-03 at a fraction of the cost?

Yes, this does work. It doesn't sound quite as good as an 03, but it will do the trick nicely.

Even so, it's still not a big savings (PDI-09 $175 + HotPlate $330 = $505 -- vs. -- PDI-03 $630).

Rod

12-09-2008, 05:10 PM

I use a Groove Tubes speaker emulator rack unit, and it's great....you plug your amp stait in, and it also acts, [and reacts] as a dummy load...

Steven_K

12-09-2008, 05:27 PM

The other way you describe (Hotplate line out -> PDI-09) would not be very good as the PDI-09 is heavily padded (attenuated).
Ok good, that is what I thought- also I doubt the hotplate's line out sounds very good on its own as its heavily attenuated tones suck.
EDIT: Although you can turn off the attenuation on the PDI-09 for use with a line out. Still don't think it would sound as good.

Yes, this does work. It doesn't sound quite as good as an 03, but it will do the trick nicely.

Even so, it's still not a big savings (PDI-09 $175 + HotPlate $330 = $505 -- vs. -- PDI-03 $630).
If I wasn't already using a hotplate I would just buy the PDI-03, but as it is the cheaper route is the PDI-09. Also, even if the sound isn't quite as good, the set up is more flexible.

Anyways, thanks everyone for your help. I've put the PDI-09 on my X-Mas wishlist and will be using it in a couple of weeks.

elambo

12-09-2008, 05:50 PM

If I wasn't already using a hotplate...

I guess I missed that part. Easy then. $175 and you're done. Let us know what you think.

Steven_K

01-03-2009, 11:12 PM

So, I've been using the Palmer into a Presonus Firebox for a few days now, and I have to say I am extremely impressed. It sounds very natural, and I'm surprised how little the amps response is affected by the room. You really can sound like you are playing through a cranked amp being recorded. And now I can do that at 11 o'clock at night! Pretty sweet...

elambo

01-04-2009, 01:06 AM

Steven_K

01-04-2009, 02:48 PM

There are a couple different ways to run it. How do you have yours setup?

I'm running out of my Vox AC15CC into the Palmer unit, then the through on the Palmer unit into the Hotplate. I usually have it set on the bright setting and either 15 or 30 DB of attenuation depending on how high I have the Vox cranked. You get more than enough signal for the Presonus, which I've read has low gain on the preamps. I am getting a great overdriven sound, but I'm still playing around to get nice clean tones. I find I've been setting the Palmer to bright for overdrive tones and then to the normal setting for cleaner sounds, with more treble coming out of the amp. The one thing I've been finding and I'll probably figure out how to dial this out is that the set-up can have an almost "stiff" sounding top end, but I think I may be clipping something in the signal chain. Almost like there is some hard popping where the normal top end should be.

elambo

01-04-2009, 03:09 PM

You can get a lot of different tones using different gain staging. So try a lot of gain from the Vox, then a lot of attenuation on the Palmer, then a lot of gain on the Presonus (which seems to be how you're using it now). Then try less gain from the Vox, no attenuation from the Palmer, and whatever it takes on the Presonus to get a decent level. This will sound different, obviously, since the Vox will be used differently.

But also play with Palmer and Presonus exclusively, keeping the amp set the same. A lot of attenuation from the Palmer, a lot of gain from the Presonus. Then no attenuation from the Palmer and very little gain on the Presonus. This will sound different.

A lot of guitarists feel, and I tend to agree, that using the most gain at each stage is ideal. But it's not always best for the song. Sometimes a thinner, more brittle tone is better.

Play around. It's not a simple matter of getting the levels to look right in your DAW.

s2amps

01-05-2009, 07:47 AM

I've struggled with this exact same thing. I bought 2 of the Palmer 04s so I could record 2 amps at once. I was pretty pleased for a while until I decided to swap my Soldano for a Wreck clone for one song. I was bummed to discover they both sounded very similar when recorded. I found the Palmer to heavily color the tone of whatever amp is plugged into it.

What the Palmer does very well, however, is function as a reactive load box that emulates the response and feel of a real speaker.

So my solution to date has been to use the Palmer as a load box with the speaker sim turned off and use either Guitar Rig 3 or POD Farm with only the cabinet models turned on. I have gotten much better results this way.

The shame of it is that I have over $1000 invested in Palmers that I only use as load boxes. I suppose I should start looking around for less expensive loads.

Does the 03 really sound that much better than the 04? I know a lot of people swear by them...

Jahn

01-05-2009, 08:04 AM

"The Junction" works in a pinch when there must be Absolute Silence in the house. Here's two clips:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=palmer+jahnli&search_type=&aq=f

Don't forget to type &fmt=18 at the end of the webaddresses to get it in higher definition. As you can hear, it does well with a clean dry or modulated signal, but kind of craps out with distortion, or at least it doesn't sound like it does when driven by a real amp speaker. My chain is amp to the palmer's speaker in/out to weber to amp speaker, weber is attenuating the signal down to a full load so the speaker doesn't make a sound. this does sound better to me than using the palmer's line in via the weber.

elambo

01-05-2009, 10:04 AM

Does the 003 really sound that much better than the 004? I know a lot of people swear by them...

I originally bought the 04, then decided to return it after only a few minutes. I've been very happy with the 03.

The 04 was meant to be a step forward in evolution from the 03. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way.

gtr777

01-05-2009, 02:18 PM

I have been using the Palmer 04 with great results. I have the older unit that is black with the teal graphics. To my ears this version sounds better then the units offered today. I know they said it's axactly the same but I compared the two and the older unit wins. I would like to try an 03 though as well. the amps I use it with are an vox acc15tbx, soldano slo, marshall 4100 and a blackheart. you do have to adjust the onboard EQ for each amp though.

Steven_K

01-05-2009, 05:45 PM

Jahn - that last sound with the Big Muff is exactly the one I've been hating, but I realize its mainly a problem when I use a sun face before the amp. So - no to germanium fuzz tones, which I guess need a speaker to mellow and sweeten them. You almost need to trick your ear into not hearing the harshness of the transistor fuzz.

alp

01-05-2009, 06:17 PM

Another nice option as a cabin simulator is the Behringer Ultra-G D.I box. I've owned Ultra-G, ADA Microcab II and a pair of Palmer PDI-09's at the same time for while. I liked the ADA best but i was done with the whole 19" rack thing and sold it. PDI-09's were nice but i liked the Ultra-G a little better. Considering the prices, i ended up selling Palmer's. Ultra-G was too nice to sold at that funny price so i still keep that in case i'll need a cab sim, also it's a nice DI box when cab simulation disengaged.

mwc2112

01-05-2009, 06:26 PM

I was the opposite... while I liked the Ultra-G, I preferred the Palmer. However, the Ultra-G is a great unit, especially if cost is a consideration.

Bix

01-05-2009, 06:27 PM

I used a PDI-09 for a short while. I couldn't get tones on tape that I was happy with. I quickly sold it and even with my poor micing techniques, I was happier with the SM57 then I ever was with the PDI-09.

Good luck with whatever you do!

Bix

elambo

01-05-2009, 08:29 PM

I used a PDI-09 for a short while. I couldn't get tones on tape that I was happy with.

As I'd mentioned earlier, there are a lot of ways to build the gain staging in order to get the most from an 09. Also, the preamp makes a BIG difference. I started with an Avalon, then moved to a Neve 1272, then resolved at a Chandler Germanium. With this current setup (and on 03, but it's similar to an 09), I'm floored by this box. But I was less excited about what the Avalon offered, and that's a damn good preamp.

Still, a 57 and a cabinet is THE standard, when you can.

iaresee

01-05-2009, 08:36 PM

I didn't read everything here so forgive me if this has been repeated. I didn't come up with this approach. I got it from Ed DeGennaro who recommended it in a thread I'd started about my PGA-04 after I got it. FWIW I really liked the PGA-04 with my Koch and got a tone of great tones out of it. Ultimately the Koch's built-in attenuator was enough and GAS drove me to sell the 04 to fund some other gear...but I digress. The method I'm using to great effect is:

Amp -> PGA-04 -> 04's Full Frequency output -> DAW -> GuitarRig 3 running only speaker simulators and mic sims.

That's the best approach I've used to date. It sounds, to me, even better than the PGA's filtered output which is good, but not quite right some times. The Koch's recording output is lightly filtered. Not quite a good as the Palmer's unfiltered output, but ultimately good enough for what I'm doing silently around the house.

I wish I could provide a filtered, unfiltered, unfiltered+sim comparison for you. I don't have clips that do all three though. These were unfiltered+sim (and a little RoomVerb for ambience):

http://ian.coastpedalboards.com/sounds/superdelay/demo1.mp3
http://ian.coastpedalboards.com/sounds/superdelay/demo4.mp3

This one is also unfiltered+sim for all guitars, including the bass:

http://ian.coastpedalboards.com/sounds/rpm2008/Ian_Chesal_-_Seven_Songs_-_06_-_Until_Tomorrow.mp3

And FWIW I think Ed's gone all Axe-Fx for direct now, but with a loaded down head running off a PGA-04 feeding the Axe-Fx. I'm sure he's got it detailed in the Axe-Fx thread.