YOUR Favorite Arpeggio Superimpositions!!!

[♫♪♫]

This thread got me thinking:
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14594

here is a bit of the OP:

Hey guys,

So I've spent the last 6 months or so working on going beyond the obvious arpeggio choices (for example, playing a C minor arpeggio over a C minor chord is fairly obvious).

I wanted to use this thread to see what other ideas people have - what are some of your favorite superimposing sounds?

While this is not terribly advanced, I love the sound of arpeggiating a major7 built off the third of a minor chord (thus having the b7 and 9 extensions). For some reason, this sounds so much cooler to me than simply arpeggiating the III triad, mostly because I like the sound of the 2nd/9th leading into the b3 (and the b7 seems to contribute an effect of circling around the root, which can lead to nice resolution if you decide to resolve to the root of the chord.)

Also, a maj6 arpeggio built off the minor third sounds very nice (even though this is technically the same thing as playing a minor 7 built from the root, starting on the third seems to give it a slightly different sound).

In those examples, there are a lot of chord tones involved, so it's pretty easy to resolve correctly. Do you guys have any favorites that require very quick resolution due to the dissonant tones?




so, do you guys have any neat arpeggio superimpositions you would like to share? This could be a VERY helpful thread IF you want it to be and help. :)

[derekd]

Well, there are the standard diatonic subs. You could start with that. All examples will be in key of C.

For the I major7, play iii minor7 or vi minor7 so Cmaj7 sub Emin7 or Amin7

For any ii minor7, play IV major7 so Dmin7 sub Fmaj7

For any V dom7, play vii half diminished so G7 sub Bmin7b5

[giggedy]

I was about to say a major 7 built off the third of a minor chord before I completely read the above. I do this a lot with some delay to add atmosphere, sounds great.

[Clifford-D]

Over C7 vamp

Triads off the Coltrane Matrix
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changes

C maj
E maj
Ab maj

Expand that to maj pents.

C major pent
E major pent
Ab major pent.

I know little about what Coltrane was all about.
I can't play confidently over Giant Steps at 200bpm
But I do know this works over a blues/rock/jazz static vamp.
And that's the world I live in.

It's a simple, very cool way to use all 12 tones.
Atonal and tonal go for a romp.

It's killer over that C7 or Cmaj7 even.



:)

[High Voltage]

Im no expert but these are some sounds I have been experimenting with...

Over G7.
G maj triad- G(1)-B(3)-D(5)

F maj triad- F(b7)-A(9)-C(4/11)

A maj triad- A(9)-C#(#11/b5)-E(6/13)

E maj triad- E(6/13)-G#(b9)-B(3)


Im interested to see other peoples favorite superimpositions.

[willhutch]

For Dominant Chords:

Major 7th built on the b7 of a dominant chord. So Fmaj7 over G7.

Half diminished built on the 3d of a dominant chord. So Bmin7b5 over G7.

Diminished arpeggio built on b9 of a dominant chord. So Ab diminished over G7. Yields a b9, which has some nice tension.

For those that want to step further out of diatonic harmony, there is the melodic minor stuff. Here goes:

Over a dominant chord, play a MinMaj7 on the b9, 4th, 5th or b7.

[derekd]

From here we could get into bitonals, which is a HUGE study. I use a few, but would have to get out my book to fill in most of the gaps. Will be happy to do so if interested. There is a bunch there to work with.

[kimock]

From here we could get into bitonals, which is a HUGE study. I use a few, but would have to get out my book to fill in most of the gaps. Will be happy to do so if interested. There is a bunch there to work with.

Yeah, how 'bout some triad pairs or something. . .

peace sk

[giggedy]

what are bitonals?

[kimock]

I think in this case it's gonna wind up being the same thing as triad pairs, but I could be wrong. . .

peace

[giggedy]

steve, what do you mean by triad pairs?

just the relationship between two triads and how they can be superimposed on one another?

[derekd]

Yeah, triad pairs, or bitonals are the combination of triads (superimposing) that seemingly are not related. You get some interesting sounds, particularly when you get to altered dominants. Very usable stuff.

Garrion Fewell's book on "Melodic Improvisation for Jazz" goes into this. The idea is thinking in triads rather than scales, which I find personally more accessible. I get tired of the half and whole step sound of scale stuff. The guy I have studied with for many years has a method he wrote that includes bitonals. Here is a link for Garrison's book.

http://www.garrisonfewell.com/pages/ORD.html

I will grab my book tonight and post some basic examples.

[giggedy]

Ok, please bare with me. Bitonal then means - playing something with two tonal centers? just like you can play an Am chord with a Cmaj7 arp over it and vice versa? I see that they have a lot of the same chords tones, is that pretty much the key here?

[Clifford-D]

Here's a good explanation of triad pairs. Very interesting.

http://www.brucesaunders.com/triadpairs.pdf

I hope this isn't a copyright infringement, so go buy the book

I'm not sure if this comes from "Melodic Improvisation for Guitar"?
http://www.amazon.com/Melodic-Improvising-Developing-Motivic-Through/dp/0786668458/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213125718&sr=1-3

Anyone know? I'll buy it.


:)

[giggedy]

That didn't help much for now, I'll have to look at it again with an instrument in hand (I'm at work). Thank you though, I can't wait to get in there. I think I understood what he was saying, but I think I need to hear it too.

[kimock]

Yeah, triad pairs, or bitonals are the combination of triads (superimposing) that seemingly are not related. You get some interesting sounds, particularly when you get to altered dominants. Very usable stuff.



Some of it does seem mutually exclusive, augmented triads a half step apart for example, but some of it's straight out of the ABB book, A major/B minor. The bitonal thing to my way of thinking would use triad pairs with no shared notes, so those would all be six notes. I'm OK with the idea of including triad pairs with one shared note for a more pentatonic sound, C minor/A major (6 pitches) and C major/A major (5 pitches) feel like family to me, so I chunk them together regardless. It's da bluz. . .
F#minor/C major, A major/G aug. etc.

I don't include every possible pentatonic scale with this batch, but anything that has 3 intervals in the first 7 semi-tones and 2 intervals in the remaining 5 semi-tones is tonal enough to investigate. Vote it off the island yourself if it offends. . .


peace sk

[kimock]

Ok, please bare with me. Bitonal then means - playing something with two tonal centers? just like you can play an Am chord with a Cmaj7 arp over it and vice versa? I see that they have a lot of the same chords tones, is that pretty much the key here?

Yo giggedy, one tonal center, just some shifting tonality effect happening in an organized way. If you think of it as "triad pairs" you're pretty much all the way there. You're not in two keys at the same time.
One tonal center per customer.
Get back in line!:D

peace

[giggedy]

nice, that's what I was thinking. I just started getting into these in a conscious about it sort of way recently, I've been liking the sounds a lot so far from this idea. I've got to try more options of it. Seems like it's pretty limitless as far as options, but application would determine how effective it sounds.

[derekd]

Ok, please bare with me. Bitonal then means - playing something with two tonal centers? just like you can play an Am chord with a Cmaj7 arp over it and vice versa? I see that they have a lot of the same chords tones, is that pretty much the key here?

Yeah two tones. The Am7 and Cmaj7 are diatonic to C, so that could be seen as a diatonic bitonal. When you play Am over C you are getting a Cmaj6, like when you play Em7 over Cmaj7 you get a Cmaj9 sound.

[jamminoutloud1]

I studied with Gary Campbell, who is the King of Triad pairs, I think there is an interview on youtube where Michael Brecker mentions him and his approach to improvisation....he has I believe 2 books out on this subject, he is from Miami, FL...the books are more geared towards sax players, but the concepts can apply to any instrument.

[57tele]

I studied with Gary Campbell, who is the King of Triad pairs, I think there is an interview on youtube where Michael Brecker mentions him and his approach to improvisation....he has I believe 2 books out on this subject, he is from Miami, FL...the books are more geared towards sax players, but the concepts can apply to any instrument.

Yeah, I picked up the Campbell's "Extensions" some years ago and thought it was pretty useful.

[Cap'n Fingers]

Good thread guys!
You got me wanting to woodshed.

[giggedy]

pretty much, that's what I want to do right now too!

Question for you guys:

I have used this concept when going over a one chord type vamp. We had a song that was in Am, and I would throw Cmaj7 arps over it. What other applications have you been using it for?

[kimock]

Yeah two tones. The Am7 and Cmaj7 are diatonic to C, so that could be seen as a diatonic bitonal. When you play Am over C you are getting a Cmaj6, like when you play Em7 over Cmaj7 you get a Cmaj9 sound.

The conventional wisdom regarding any and all music theory naming convention information divides that information into three categories:

Right

Wrong

Optional

the above "diatonic bitonal" is wrong.

Bitonal, bitonality, whatever requires you to be using two key signatures at the same time. The above "chord" examples are in the same key.
There's absolutely no reason to refer to the above as bitonal.
It aint.

The current naming system is in bad enough shape as it is, let's not confuse it further.

peace sk

[giggedy]

well, you did it again steve, now I'm confused.

[derekd]

The conventional wisdom regarding any and all music theory naming convention information divides that information into three categories:

Right

Wrong

Optional

the above "diatonic bitonal" is wrong.

Bitonal, bitonality, whatever requires you to be using two key signatures at the same time. The above "chord" examples are in the same key.
There's absolutely no reason to refer to the above as bitonal.
It aint.

The current naming system is in bad enough shape as it is, let's not confuse it further.

Yes, I agree, I was trying to tie in what we were talking about with the guy who was suggesting diatonic subs. There is no such term as "diatonic bitonals".

Major Bitonals
Dmaj over Cmaj = C6/9#11
Em over Cmaj = Cmaj7
Gmaj over Cmaj = Cmaj9
Am over Cmaj = C6
Bm over Cmaj = Cmaj7#11 or Cmaj9#11

Playing Dmaj, Em, Gmaj, Am, & Bm strung together with Cmaj triads give you all these C tonalities/extentions.

Dominant
Edim over Cmaj = C7
Gm over Cmaj = C9
Am over Cmaj = C13

String Edim, Gm & Am together with Cmaj triads for C dom sounds.

Minor
Adim over Cmin = Cmin13
Abmaj over Cmin = Cmin#5
Ebmin over Cmin = Cmin7b5

When you get to altered dominants, it gets a little chewy. Hope this helps.

[kimock]

well, you did it again steve, now I'm confused.

Sorry giggedy, "Diatonic" restricts you to one tonality, Bitonality requires the simultaneous occurrence of two tonalities.

You cannot simultaneously be restricted to a single tonality while required to be in two tonalities. If you're in one key signature, you're not in two, right?
The term "diatonic bitonality" is an obvious misnomer and an absurd contradiction of existing terminology and the "concept" illustrated is pointless. You're not even using two chords, you're using two names for the same stack of thirds.

Try that A major/Cmajor pentatonic thing I suggested over an A7 (whatever) chord. G A C C# E G A C C# Start on the A string at the 10th fret. Play across, in position, with the 2nd to last C on the B string at the 13th fret, then hit the C# on the E string at the 9th fret.

Try it again with an added E-flat. That's "bitonal" by (stretched) definition, but it sure sounds like you're rockin' the A7th thing.

A major triad + C minor triad, 3 sharps for the key signature of A, and 3 flats for the key signature of C minor, while meeting the definition of bitonal in some superficial way in 5-limit harmony are all in the resolved tonic area of A in 7-limit. Blues for theory. . .

Now you're confused.:rotflmao

peace!

[KRosser]

Major Bitonals
Dmaj over Cmaj = C6/9#11
Em over Cmaj = Cmaj7
Gmaj over Cmaj = Cmaj9
Am over Cmaj = C6
Bm over Cmaj = Cmaj7#11 or Cmaj9#11

Playing Dmaj, Em, Gmaj, Am, & Bm strung together with Cmaj triads give you all these C tonalities/extentions.

Dominant
Edim over Cmaj = C7
Gm over Cmaj = C9
Am over Cmaj = C13

String Edim, Gm & Am together with Cmaj triads for C dom sounds.

Minor
Adim over Cmin = Cmin13
Abmaj over Cmin = Cmin#5
Ebmin over Cmin = Cmin7b5

When you get to altered dominants, it gets a little chewy. Hope this helps.

This is not bitonality, FWIW, as I believe SK has been trying to point out. It's not the superimposition of two chords, it's the simultaneous occurence of two key centers, neither of which dominates.

Big, big difference.

Exploring bitonality on the guitar can be big fun, though, but that's another thread.

[derekd]

Well, I will politely disagree with you. I got these from Jay EuDaly, who got them from John Elliot. John has taught everyone who has anything to do with jazz in the past 40 years in KC, including both Pat & Mike Metheny, Steve Cardness, Bobby Watson, Danny Embry, Rod Fleeman, Karryn Allison, etc.

These are his terms not mine. I do understand that these triad extensions are only the tip of iceberg, and as I suggested, when you get to altered dominants it gets pretty dense. What examples would you give for bitonals then so I can understand what you are saying?

[giggedy]

Sorry giggedy, "Diatonic" restricts you to one tonality, Bitonality requires the simultaneous occurrence of two tonalities.

You cannot simultaneously be restricted to a single tonality while required to be in two tonalities. If you're in one key signature, you're not in two, right?
The term "diatonic bitonality" is an obvious misnomer and an absurd contradiction of existing terminology and the "concept" illustrated is pointless. You're not even using two chords, you're using two names for the same stack of thirds.

Try that A major/Cmajor pentatonic thing I suggested over an A7 (whatever) chord. G A C C# E G A C C# Start on the A string at the 10th fret. Play across, in position, with the 2nd to last C on the B string at the 13th fret, then hit the C# on the E string at the 9th fret.

Try it again with an added E-flat. That's "bitonal" by (stretched) definition, but it sure sounds like you're rockin' the A7th thing.

A major triad + C minor triad, 3 sharps for the key signature of A, and 3 flats for the key signature of C minor, while meeting the definition of bitonal in some superficial way in 5-limit harmony are all in the resolved tonic area of A in 7-limit. Blues for theory. . .

Now you're confused.:rotflmao

peace!


I understood everything up to the A major/C major pent thing. I'll have to get out the instrument later to go through what you said, and then I'll probably be more confused.

Yeah, that last paragraph, right over my head.

Anywho, this is a superimposed arpeggio thread, which I do think I understand. KRosser is right, I think a new thread should be started for the bitonal things. I'll start one, if you guys promise to start as if you're explaining it to a monkey.

[♫♪♫]

can we get back on track...plz... :(

[derekd]

can we get back on track...plz... :(

I listed 10 or so I think. Were those the sort of thing you were looking for?

[♫♪♫]

maybe, I just don't understand that bitonality stuff or whatever. I don't even know my augmented and diminished scales except my half whole diminished, and I am still learning that one.

I understand the other stuff though, thanks!

[KRosser]

Well, I will politely disagree with you. I got these from Jay EuDaly, who got them from John Elliot. John has taught everyone who has anything to do with jazz in the past 40 years in KC, including both Pat & Mike Metheny, Steve Cardness, Bobby Watson, Danny Embry, Rod Fleeman, Karryn Allison, etc.

These are his terms not mine. I do understand that these triad extensions are only the tip of iceberg, and as I suggested, when you get to altered dominants it gets pretty dense. What examples would you give for bitonals then so I can understand what you are saying?

Not the first time I've heard a jazz guy misappropriate a perfectly good term ;)

Please check the new "Bitonality" thread Giggedy just started.

[derekd]

maybe, I just don't understand that bitonality stuff or whatever. I don't even know my augmented and diminished scales except my half whole diminished, and I am still learning that one.

I understand the other stuff though, thanks!

Well, the examples I gave were triads not scales. I know you asked for arpeggio superimpositions, but basically triads can serve that function since they contain the root, 3 & 5, particularly when you add those extensions.

At least that is how I use them, in place of arpeggios and scales.

[TaZMaNiO]

:RoCkIn

[Litsa]

I am really enjoying the THREAD on Superimposing Arpeggios! So, I was wondering if anyone has some GREAT patterns of hooking different Arpeggios together that they can post? :RoCkIn