How can I get power sag without using a tube rectifier?

[somedude]

Thanks.

[saros141]

Series resistor.

Hey - is Canada Heaven, or is Canada South of Heaven?

[somedude]

South of heaven.

So, something like an attenuator, but meant for household current?

Is that what a variac is?

[saros141]

Not really... I'm talking about inside the amp, after the wall voltage has been stepped up by the transformer and turned into direct current by the rectifier. A mod that really should be done by a tech, and would of course affect the originality of the amp.

Heh heh, I get it, in that case this whole world is South of Heaven. I guess you got dibs on that as a band/album/song name.

:D

[somedude]

If I get it done, I'll get a tech to do it. I'm just getting my knowledge up so I can communicate my idea better.

So, after the tranny you'd install a series resistor?

If that's true, would it be possible to some kind of variable rate resistor in there? And, if I can do that, would it continue to effect the sound of the amp even when bypassed (by how much if any)?


The amp I'm looking to do this to is a Mesa 2:100 power amp. It's supposed to have the same circuit as the Dual Rectifier, except that it lacks the tube rectifier, so I can't get the sag sound I could get out of a Recto.

Here's a pic if it helps any (http://home.cogeco.ca/~screamingdaisy/New_Folder/power_amp.jpg)

[somedude]

Oh, and the band Slayer made an album called South of Heaven back in '88 or something. It's where I got that from.

[rjmmusic]

The mod I've seen puts a 100 ohm, high wattage resistor in between the rectifier output and the first filter cap. To bypass it, install a switch so that when the switch is closed it shorts out the resistor. It wouldn't affect the sound of the amp at all when bypassed.

[Jeff Flowerday]

WeberVST also has a copper cap module rectifier that needs to be installed inside your amp. You can purchase them to emulate a multitude of rectifiers.

http://www.webervst.com/ccap.html

[somedude]

Originally posted by Jeff Flowerday
WeberVST also has a copper cap module rectifier that needs to be installed inside your amp. You can purchase them to emulate a multitude of rectifiers.

http://www.webervst.com/ccap.html

I thought those were only for amps that already had a tube rectifier that you wanted to convert to solid state?

I already have a solid state rectifier, and there's no tube socket for me to plug one of those in.

[Jeff Flowerday]

Originally posted by screamingdaisy
I thought those were only for amps that already had a tube rectifier that you wanted to convert to solid state?

I already have a solid state rectifier, and there's no tube socket for me to plug one of those in.

I'll repeat myself, there are module versions of his rectifier that need to be installed inside the amp. They replace the solid state internal rectifier, no tube socket required.

[somedude]

Originally posted by Jeff Flowerday
I'll repeat myself, there are module versions of his rectifier that need to be installed inside the amp. They replace the solid state internal rectifier, no tube socket required.

Thanks for the clarification, I'll send them an email and see what info they can give me on it.

[vladorg]

Originally posted by Jeff Flowerday
I'll repeat myself, there are module versions of his rectifier that need to be installed inside the amp. They replace the solid state internal rectifier, no tube socket required.

Hmm,
that's quite interesting. Pretty much I can swap my Mesa's soid state rectifier with one of these bad boys and have it sag like a tube rectifier. Is this mod possible to be done by everyone or just a tech? Thanks for the tip Jeff,

Vlad

[somedude]

FYI

Originally posted by Ted Weber
I was told you guys make a version of the Copper Cap Rectifier that's
designed to work with a solid state rectifier. Is this true?

Yes, it will take the place of the solid state rectifier and give the amp more feel of an amp with a tube rectifier.

The amp in question is a Mesa 2:100 power amp, and I'd like to simulate the
characteristics of the 5U4 rectifier tubes normally used in a Dual
Rectifier.

That would be our WU4GB.


http://home.cogeco.ca/~screamingdaisy/New_Folder/power_amp.jpg

Yikes.. that's quite a layout. You would need to determine if it is full wave or fullwave bridge, and then find the proper wires to disconnect to patch in the copper cap.
.
.
Thanks very much,

Ted



I sent another email asking if it was possible to wire both rectifiers in the amp, with a swich to choose between the two. Just waiting on an answer.

[Jeff Flowerday]

The mod should be done by a tech. If you made a mistake you could easily take out your power transformer.


Jeff

[Jeff Flowerday]

Originally posted by screamingdaisy
FYI



I sent another email asking if it was possible to wire both rectifiers in the amp, with a swich to choose between the two. Just waiting on an answer.


Yes it could be done. How easily depends on how the inside of your amp is layed out.

[Swarty]

Switching rectifier schemes will impact the bias. The original bias circuit will have higher B+, and thus draw more plate current than the sag inducing rectifier thingy.

[somedude]

Originally posted by Jeff Flowerday
The mod should be done by a tech. If you made a mistake you could easily take out your power transformer.


Jeff

I'd get a tech to do it. I like to do my own work, but it's not something I'm interested in doing myself as I'm an amature when it comes to electronics.


Originally posted by Jeff Flowerday
Yes it could be done. How easily depends on how the inside of your amp is layed out.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~screamingdaisy/New_Folder/power_amp.jpg

[Jeff Flowerday]

Swarty is right. If you wanted to switch and use the 5U4 version of copper cap the B+ change between the two would probably be a little too large to have the tubes biased up properly in both settings. A 5AR4 version of the copper cap would work better. You could find a bias setting that would work with both B+.

The thing you have to think about are you looking for the SAG effect of a tube or the voltage drop of a 5U4. The voltage drop from the 5U4 copper cap will definately change the feel/tone of your amp along with the simulated SAG you are looking for. Lower voltage usually means slightly warmer/darker and less head room.

[somedude]

Just to clarify, does the sag effect that I'd normally associate with a tube rectifier come from a reduction in voltage, current, or both? Would it be possible to get a description, or a link to a description, of the basic physics at work in tube sag and how it relates to the rest of the amp?

If I read you're last post correctly, the 5U4 version of the CCap will both reduce the voltage, and produce the simulated sag?

I'm basing wanting the 5U4 CCap based on the fact that a Dual Recto uses a 5U4 in it's rectifier, that's my only reason for looking in that direction. I am open to other options however.

Do you suppose the Dual Recto has some circuit to compensate for the change in B+ and keep the tubes in correct bias, or do you suppose the change in B+ is part of the sound?

[Jeff Flowerday]

SAG is what happens when the rectifier isn't able to keep up with demand.

So what you are looking for might be either, the amp running at a lower B+ or the effect of SAG. You have to push the amp a little to get the rectifier to SAG.

[somedude]

I usually run my master volume above 60% for modern sounds, and at max for more classic rock (on the clean channel), or slugdy metal (dirt channel).

So yeah, it's pushed a little. :D


Will it damage the amp to run a lower B+ on occasion? Or will it just wear out the power tubes faster? I'm tempted to try the 5U4 CCap despite the change in bias just to see if I like the way it sounds.

[Jeff Flowerday]

You are best to bias it up properly, to get a true understanding on how it should sound. Biased too cold could easily mislead you.

[somedude]

Hmm. Both the 5U4 and 5AR4 Copper Caps are about $20.

I might just get one of each and see which one I like better.

[impactblue]

You guys know anything about the Sag Simulation Circuit in Vox AC15ccs?

[killer blues]

A 10W 100ohm resistor in series with the OT center tap will give nice sag to the power tubes, and it will feel like a tube rectifier.

[Old Tele man]

...for the technically inclined:

http://www.turretboards.com/mods/sag_mod_schematic.pdf