My electric violin rig - best effects pedal chain order??

[merek]

Hey guys, this is my first post! The forum has been extremely helpful to me before. :)

I'm an electric violinist trying to build up a versatile pro rig. In the past I've simply plugged my e-violin into a DigiTech GNX3/4, and I still use a certain amp/cab model from the GNX4 to get a good basic clean sound (crazily enough, no amp I've tried sounds as good with e-violin). Below is my current idea of what order my effects should be in. I already have most of these pedals: the asterisked pedals are those that are next on my list to purchase and will probably be necessary to the rig for my intended range of tonal possibilities. So, here's the gear:


Skyinbow electric violin w/ built-in preamp
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Snarling Dogs Super Bawl Whine-O wah
True Bypass Looper* w/ Electro Harmonix Little Big Muff and Danelectro 7 Band EQ and Danelectro Fabtone Distortion in loop (for dirt/lead stuff)
Booster/Buffer*
Gig-FX The Chopper* or Danelectro Cool Cat Chorus (splits to stereo)
Line 6 FM4 filter/synth modeler w/ expression pedal
DigiTech GNX4 mfx (for clean amp/cab modeling, looping, and various effects)
Line 6 Verbzilla (for occasional ambience)
TC Electronic Nova NM-1 Modulator*
TC Electronic Nova ND-1 Delay
EHX LPB-2ube tube preamp
Rackmount Behringer 31 band EQ
Rackmount Behringer V-Verb Pro reverb (main reverb)
Rackmount BBE 882 Sonic Maximizer
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Traynor K4 keyboard amp


To simplify, in this chain the effect order would be: Wah à Fuzz/Distortion à Booster/Buffer* à Chopper* or Chorus à Filter/Synth à MFX/Amp/Cab Modeler à Reverb à Modulation* à Delay à EQ à Reverb à Sonic Maximizer


I'm definitely not married to this order and am particularly curious as to where in the chain the FM4 and LPB-2ube would sound best:
I thought I should place the FM4 before the GNX4’s amp modeling and after distortion b/c of some pitch modulation in its effects and after other mono effects b/c of its stereo capability.
I’m torn between placing the LPB-2ube after the GNX4 to restore some warmth that the digital processor lacks and give a boost before the amp, or placing the (unbalanced) LPB-2ube before the GNX4 so I can run balanced cable from the GNX4 through the end of the chain (would put unbalanced verbzilla before GNX4 in that case).

Any help/suggestions would be awesome. Thanks in advance!

Oh, and incidentally, if anyone has a booster-buffer or Nova Modulator, perhaps even a cheap true-bypass looper, for sale, let me know. ;)

Zuriel

[jaywalker]

Sounds pretty good the way it is, you might want to add a decent mic simulator on an A/B/loop bypassing the OD section though. I use a handmade piezo equipped 5 string often and sometimes forget about the trad sounds I need and end up with a shitload of hassle because I can't do violin sounds!!!!

I use a yamaha magicstomp to convert my piezo into something like a humbucker, then run my violion/mandolin through my regular board with an A/B to either my amps or the PA the result is a very guitar like tone when needed, or a very traditional miked sound.

Most amp modelers react better to more guitar like tones than piezos can provide unfortunately, especially with the low C. I'll try to find a couple of tracks with the sim and without it to show the difference it makes to the clean sound as well as the OD sound.

[merek]

Thanks jaywalker, I really appreciate the advice. And I listened to the myspace music from your signature: sounds good! I'm actually already pretty happy with my clean/classical violin sound going through the GNX4. It has an amp and cabinet model that I particularly like and probably is not very different than the mic modeling you mentioned. Sounds really good with my 5th string too. If I get the chance, I'll make a dry recording of my clean sound in the next few days. I gather that the mic modeling you use is in the Magicstomp, correct? I'll have to try one sometime.

I'm still open to thoughts and suggestions from others too, even those who don't play violin. What I have is essentially a guitar effects chain anyway!

[Mr. Kite]

Does your violin have frets like Mark Wood?
http://www.myspace.com/electricviolinistmarkwood
I love forward thinking stuff.

[merek]

No, it doesn't. It's got a more traditional, though somewhat modernized, shape, which allows me to play with various bands/music styles (wouldn't want to play a flying v at a country/jazz/acoustic type gig!). Here's a pic that gives a somewhat clear shot of my instrument:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/zurielmerek/l_0781ee6b29d218920abd94a54b952008.jpg (http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/zurielmerek/l_0781ee6b29d218920abd94a54b952008.jpg)

I too love forward-thinking stuff and have wanted to try one of Mark Wood's Viper e-violins for awhile now, though I suspect my Skyinbow probably has a little bit better tone. I think the frets are pretty unnecessary for violin, but the shoulder support system looks great. Unfortunately, at $2000-$4000 per instrument, I can't afford one right now!

[Mr. Kite]

Yours looks better, that pointy one looks pretty 80s. Yours looks classic and will always be cool.

[mattthefiddler]

I play a 6 stringed fretted wood violins viper (Blue Burl mmm) with a barbera transducer for the bridge. Nice to see another electric player here that appreciates good effects!

the effects order looks ok. But I have a couple of ideas that may clean up soem mud in your sound

Rackmount Behringer 31 band EQ- move that to the front. Eq out the Quack from the peizo before it hits any other gain effects.... if you have a 2 channel eq, put it first and last :)

EHX LPB-2ube tube preamp- try this be the first thing you hit after the eq... if you put the eq first


If this is all you are only using this order..... Wah à Fuzz/Distortion à Booster/Buffer* à Chopper* or Chorus à Filter/Synth à MFX/Amp/Cab Modeler à Reverb à Modulation* à Delay à EQ à Reverb à Sonic Maximizer. then, ideally the amp/ cab moddler should be closer to first (for the preamp section) and also near last for the speaker sims. does that have an effects loop?

I would by default do this order, then adjust after listening and matching buffers.... and only use 1 verb...
EQ
EH Tube if set clean to warm piezo before other effects (depending on sound and redundancy)
Wah
Booster/Buffer*
Fuzz/Distortion
EH Tube if set dirty
MFX/Amp/Cab Modeler (preamp side for gain)-->effects loop out
Chopper*
Modulation*/or Chorus
Filter/Synth (though a good lowpass with an envelope follower set at slow at the start of the chain is amazing on violin)
Delay
Reverb
loop in Speaker sims/ power amp sims on the MFX pedal
Sonic Maximizer.

Be careful using too many pedals for tone suck, and especially multiple preamp stages.. including the ones in the multieffects unit. they can sound good together


The modulation effects will sound cleaner before the reverb.. as then they have a cleaner signal, and the verb will clean them up. Modulated reverb does not sound as pretty as the modulation before the reverb.... You have verb in there twice... I would only have it at the end. Also, if you are using delay- reverb before it will muddy it up.

If your multi effects has space resonators for an amp (boss GT-8, GT-10 does) those are good to simulate space of a acoustic violin body, both before and or after the preamp stages.

I like to hit a good clean tube early, but they also sound tasty after the distortion and gain effects, or can be used in place of the multi effects preamp.

"(crazily enough, no amp I've tried sounds as good with e-violin)"

indeed the peizos make gear different than guitar selection. i recently tried 50-70 amps and borrowed lots of peoples ears in multiple cities order to find a few that match the tone in my head against the electric sound. I found the following amps are golden with electric violins... and at least my Barbera peizo pickup. 90% of amps I played were quite unusable with it... if you can demo any of these out.. do as some hit a sweet tone!

in order

-Egnater 4212 combo or 4100 head..$1600 by far the best I played. so Good I got it :)
-Peavey Delta Blues 210 or 115- $650 Amazing 2 channels, at a cheaper price
-Peavey Classic 30- $450-$500 almost the same, but not as warm (good enough I got it for my school, and use it myself some too, because the price was right for public school orchestra budget)
-Almost any Orange amp head,$700-$2000 if you are into the Orange sounds- this may be at the top of your list.
- any Fender Blues line (Deville etc.)..
-Fender Blues Junior, but does not have too much drive in it.
-Vox and fender twins can sound good if you want good clean tones.



here is some of mysetup for reference!
http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v255/147/0/21105751/n21105751_31902350_4088.jpg
http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v255/147/0/21105751/n21105751_31902349_3792.jpg

[mattthefiddler]

I will also say... if you can turn off the acoustic moddler options when you run distortion, you may be happier. experiment with the active preamp your violin has on it... those can sound amazing in clean situations, but really can cause problems with mud in the distortions and other effects.

I would not get an electric aimed at natural sound emulation if using it with high gain or other drive effects... some people have 2 electrics for this purpose.

[merek]

Thanks matt, that's a lot of really great advice! I'll try to respond to most of what you suggested:

"Rackmount Behringer 31 band EQ- move that to the front."
I agree that this is the ideal placement. I've been resistant to it b/c of the extra clutter of having two sets of cables going between the rack and floor effects. Maybe I just need to deal with that until I can afford a MIDI switching system! Another option at my disposal is a PreSonus parametric 3 band EQ that I purchased specifically to tame any vestiges of piezo quack coming from the instrument. I haven't had the time to play around with it yet, but I guess I just need to experiment with the two EQs to see which sounds better at the beginning of the chain.

"EHX LPB-2ube tube preamp- try this be the first thing you hit after the eq"
What's the reasoning behind placing it there? Would it not be better after the (somewhat digital sounding) modeled amp/cab in the DigiTech to warm the sound back up? I intend to have it always on, set for a cleaner sound.

"ideally the amp/ cab moddler should be closer to first (for the preamp section) and also near last for the speaker sims. does that have an effects loop?"
I totally agree, but alas, no effects loop in the DigiTech...

"You have verb in there twice... I would only have it at the end."
The Behringer unit at the end is the main "always-on" verb effect, whereas I would only use the Line 6 pedal for its octo shimmer effect to purposely muddy up the sound. Still, I will take your advice and try it after all modulation/delay.

"I found the following amps are golden with electric violins"
Thank you thank you thank you for the ideas! I've tried the Fenders and a Peavey (as I recall, both had too much gain (even set clean) and compression for the clean sound I'm going for) but really look forward to auditioning some of the others you suggested.

"if you can turn off the acoustic moddler options when you run distortion, you may be happier"
My feet don't work fast enough to make too many switches when going from clean sounds to dirty lead sounds! Down the road, either an AB switcher or MIDI looper/switcher will do the trick I think.

"some people have 2 electrics for this purpose"
Two things keeping me from this: first, lack of funds. :) Second and more importantly, in most of the bands I've played with, I'm playing almost all the time or at least transitioning back and forth from clean parts to distorted parts seamlessly, so there's no time to set one instrument down and pick up another for different song sections. My gear philosophy right now is to try to achieve the best clean sound possible and then use distortion pedals through the clean amp/cab modeling for my lead sound. The latter is a bit muddy right now but overall pretty good I think. Fools people into thinking an electric guitar is playing at least! ;)

"here is some of mysetup for reference!"
Looks awesome, I'm already envious of your Moog pedal collection! Who do you play with by the way? Are you on myspace? Thanks man for taking the time to help.

[drbob1]

I have no idea about electric violins, but a couple of suggestions for making life simpler:
1. For EQ you might consider a parametric (Boss used to make a 3 channel semi-parametric stomper and a 1/2 rack 3 channel). The advantage there is that you can target the actual frequencies you want to, not just get close with a 31 band. So, dial out the quack, boost the bass a little, add some air... If you use a 1/2 rack size, you can mount it under your pedalboard.
2. I'd seriously consider deep sixing almost everything you've got and picking up an Axe-Fx processor. NOT cheap at $1400 direct, but it'd replace everything you've got and your pedalboard could simply be a MIDI board with presets and a couple of switches and CV pedals for volume and effects. Given the cost of the GNX4, you're not going to be too far down if you sell everything else. It has signal chains that work great for piezo electric and ones that are killer for regular pickups, all the EQ you could use, and you only need one (full range, PA style) monitor.
3. Failing that, a more competent bypass looper, especially if midi-controlled, would give you the flexibility to turn great chunks of the signal chain on/off at the same time, making the transition from clean to distorted MUCH easier. The best loopers are rackmounted (Kittyhawk, Bradshaw etc) and aren't super expensive used. Seems to me WOBO makes a killer programmable stomper. Oh yeah, Vestax and BCRich jointly developed a 4 loop, programmable pedal years ago, those're REALLY cheap used and work pretty darn well (only 7 presets, though).

[merek]

Thanks drbob, I will definitely test out my PreSonus parametric now, and it indeed takes up only 1/2 rack space. Will need to build an inclined pedalboard to put it under. I read about the Axe-FX a month ago or so, I think on this forum, and it was seriously GAS-inducing. If it lives up to the hype, I think it could make me pretty happy! That and the TC Electronic G System are on high on my list of gear to check out. I'm graduating from college this summer, so hopefully I can start saving some money soon. Do you have a link for that Vestax/BC Rich looper? I did a quick google search and didn't find it.

[mattthefiddler]

Thanks matt, that's a lot of really great advice! I'll try to respond to most of what you suggested:

"Rackmount Behringer 31 band EQ- move that to the front."
I agree that this is the ideal placement. I've been resistant to it b/c of the extra clutter of having two sets of cables going between the rack and floor effects. Maybe I just need to deal with that until I can afford a MIDI switching system!

Get over it :)

"EHX LPB-2ube tube preamp- try this be the first thing you hit after the eq"
What's the reasoning behind placing it there? Would it not be better after the (somewhat digital sounding) modeled amp/cab in the DigiTech to warm the sound back up? I intend to have it always on, set for a cleaner sound.

If that is your goal, then yes- that is a great place for it. When I use the Boss GT-8 I use the Harmonic Converger to clean up digital clutter. I run it in the effects chain directly after the preamps.

"ideally the amp/ cab moddler should be closer to first (for the preamp section) and also near last for the speaker sims. does that have an effects loop?"
I totally agree, but alas, no effects loop in the DigiTech...

For what you are doing.. you really need an effects loop in there... especially since you are running 2 different schools of though with your tone. You could get an AB switcher.. and run the EQ in front of it.. then 2 separate signal chains for the clean or gain effects.

"You have verb in there twice... I would only have it at the end."
The Behringer unit at the end is the main "always-on" verb effect, whereas I would only use the Line 6 pedal for its octo shimmer effect to purposely muddy up the sound. Still, I will take your advice and try it after all modulation/delay.

My advice is a starting point. try it, but use your ears. I break a lot of "rules" for effect... you just may find some more clarity, but with the space that verb has. Verb can loose you in the mix Very quickly.... especially if sound guys are not used to mixing a violin. (ugg)

"I found the following amps are golden with electric violins"
Thank you thank you thank you for the ideas! I've tried the Fenders and a Peavey (as I recall, both had too much gain (even set clean) and compression for the clean sound I'm going for) but really look forward to auditioning some of the others you suggested.

I think the peavey classic 30 can push the gain.. but the clean at soft volumes with a mic on it... is pretty clean... it depends on your use ... if you are using it as your only sound source and competing with drums and a band... or throwing a mic on it (reccomended)


My gear philosophy right now is to try to achieve the best clean sound possible and then use distortion pedals through the clean amp/cab modeling for my lead sound. The latter is a bit muddy right now but overall pretty good I think. Fools people into thinking an electric guitar is playing at least! ;)

You have your starting point :) that is the most important thing. I would reccomend looking at AXE as mentioned... or a type of an AB switch that will allow you to run two separate signal chains. I don't know what the axe sounds like.. so I can't comment.... Also, try looking at GT-10 or the POD X3.. all have much better options than previous version moddlers. I use moddlers, but don't believe they respond in the same way as an amp...


"here is some of mysetup for reference!"
Looks awesome, I'm already envious of your Moog pedal collection! Who do you play with by the way? Are you on myspace? Thanks man for taking the time to help.

I play around... no perm. bands at the moment. i rip up the violin sound in that modular :) pm coming on sound

[merek]

Sounds good man, I'll be trying out some of these ideas.