Don't look in here, guitar woodshop photo content

[Bruce Bennett]

I decided to post some photos of a small project that I had made the decision to build over the weekend, so
Monday morning, I came in and dug around for my Gibson Moderne templates, and then got busy dicing up some KORINA!.

Got in a nice little shipment 2 months back and I've been letting it acclimate for a bit.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02397.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Diced up the basic blanks on this here chop saw. note the Clamp for a stop. Still don't have everything i want in the new shop yet.. but it's coming along slowly.



http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02398.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Here's a shot of the blanks after being cut and loaded onto my nice roll away bread cart..picked this up at a local shop that was going out of biz for a steal of a deal.


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02399.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

a shot of the cart rolled into position by my joiner.
This cart is about the handiest thing I've ever had in the shop..

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02400.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Shot of the new Grizzley joiner. for the bucks these are hard to beat. and I've owned Olivers', Northfields' and SCMIs'

Great units all.. but pricy.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02401.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

now that they are joined, they go to the table saw for sizeing.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02404.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

it was about this time that I decided I had better check my template to make sure I didn't dice anything too small..
measure twice, cut once..

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02403.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Today was a busy one and there were lots of interuptions so It was late before I could get back to working on the wood.

i decided to only get one blank in the clamps tonight, so i sticker stacked all the other blanks till tomorrow.

Don't know about other guys. But in my shop, if you leave wood unsticked overnight.. your fired tomorrow, no joke.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02405.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

so here is the first of 5 new Blanks to make Gibson Moderne styled guitars.
These will be sold on ebay as raw project pieces. I'll be building some necks as well.


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02406.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

and for those that have never seen one., and because I just like looking at them.
here's a shot of the model I intend to build, as it would look fully finished.


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02402.jpg

[sw686blue]

Keep posting stuff like this! Love it!

[Birddog]

Great series of photos -- I'm looking forward to seeing the rest.

[Bruce Bennett]

Fresh out of the clamps this morning ( Tuesday7/29/08) at 7:30 am

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02407.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

useing the template to draw out the perimieter and centerlines


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02408.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

last shot before going to the bandsaw..

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02409.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

bandsawing I'm 3/4 the way done in this photo.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02410.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

All sawn, and ready to afix the template for routing.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02411.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Heres the mounting screw for the top end of the template.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02412.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

and here's the bottom screw. this one has a 3/8 dowel in it with the screw going through it.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02413.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

now that the Template is secure, I use this bit to rout the Perimeter of the body. you can see how the bits bearing rides the template and cuts only the wood.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02414.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

here the body is edge routed and the template stays on to finish routing the pickup cavities and drill the control holes.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02415.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

routing the pickup cavities with my trusty Dee-Walt Plunge router and vacuum attachment.. it really sucks.

I've had this router since Warrior first got started... she's been a good'ern

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02416.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Pickup cavities routed .. but no ears yet..thats next. but after I drill the control holes.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02418.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

On to the drill press where i use a 3/8 bit to drill all the way through the body.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02420.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

here's a shot of the body with the template removed showing the holes from the front.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02421.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

and one from the back showing the holes, this helps me locate the control cavity.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02422.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

and now for the pickup ears, I just freehand these.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02423.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Ok , now to the control cavity.
I have measurements on paper that I use to get the cavity lined up with the holes.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02424.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

all done, the top is 1/4 thick at this point.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02425.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

now for the Backplate cavity. I used to hate doing these until I found the perfect bit. by Eagle.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02426.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

and here is shot right after doing the edge roundover. Next she gets sanded and from there she goes on Ebay.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02427.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Here's a shot that I intend to use on Ebay.
She's fully sanded to 100 grit.

with the exception of yesterdays work. this guitar went from blank to what you see below today from 7:30 Am to 10:00Am with time taken for photos and then to post them here.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02428.jpg

[ben_allison]

wow... more please!

thanks so much for this... on of my fave TGP threads ever.

[Bruce Bennett]

wow... more please!

thanks so much for this... on of my fave TGP threads ever.

Next week I intend to do several moderne necks..
Maybe I can post the building of them as well... we'll see.

[cram]

thanks for the documentation here..

I've left wood un-sticked for a shelving project that I did for our livingroom.. Birdseye maple. It kicked and I kicked myself in the a$$ all the way back to the warehouse to get more wood...

really great to see the steps you're going through.

[ben_allison]

1) what happens to the wood if it's unsticked?
2) what does the jointer do? cut grooves into each piece of wood for better gluing?

[Scott Auld]

Bruce, you make it look so easy, but I know it's not. :)

[c-dub]

great thread!

[whoismarykelly]

1) what happens to the wood if it's unsticked?
2) what does the jointer do? cut grooves into each piece of wood for better gluing?


The Jointer makes an edge perfectly flat and square for better gluing and to ensure a straight flat blank.

[cram]

1) what happens to the wood if it's unsticked?


with surfaces of stacked wood up against each other you've got a situation where non facing sides of the wood are getting the humidity level of the room. this can increase cupping and in some cases the wood can turn or kick on you.

atleast that's how I know it.

[Bruce Bennett]

1) what happens to the wood if it's unsticked?
2) what does the jointer do? cut grooves into each piece of wood for better gluing?

Being as whoiskelly Answered ?#2
I'll answer ?#3

in Woodworking there is a simple premise that states.
Whatever you do to one side of the wood, you should do to the other side so that they both lose moisture at a consistant rate.

Now, think about this just a bit.
if you have a piece of wood that you just spent a good amount of time getting both sides nice and flat, and to a specific diamension.. you want it to Stay where you diamensioned it to right?

But then if you just lay it on one of it's sides on a table.. this will leave one side exposed to the air and the other side effectively "covered" from the air. this will allow the side thats exposed to lose moisture while the "covered" side will not be able to lose moisture.

now, it's a simple fact that when wood loses moisture.. it shrinks. and vise versa.

then you can see how one side would want to shrink while the other side would tend to stay exactly as it was.. the results are the wood warps toward the shrinking side.

But if both sides are exposed and air is allowed to circulate on both sides. equally. then both sides should "shrink" at the same rate. thereby maintaining the shape you worked so hard to get it into.

Hence the idea to Stack the wood on spacers that ended up being called "Stickers" for whatever reason. and that turned into "sticker stacking"



Just saw where cram answered this question..

I will add that this whole point proves that wood is a living breatheing thing even if it's not a tree anymore. and this more than anything IMHO is the real reason why It's not just a simple process to build a guitar just right. and that while anyone can do it..
it does take some years of experience working with the materials to really "get it right"

[ben_allison]

wow... thanks for the in depth reply! so over the course of a day or two, how much warping are we talking? like, a millimeter or two?

sorry to hijack! it's just fascinating.

[Bruce Bennett]

wow... thanks for the in depth reply! so over the course of a day or two, how much warping are we talking? like, a millimeter or two?

sorry to hijack! it's just fascinating.


Well, I had an opportunity years back to work for a German Company that Built old style Pipe organs.
They had a piece of mahogany that was precision diced to 1"X1"X12" and hung in the middle of the shop by a string .
we were to measure this piece everyday, always useing the same ruler.

I personally saw it move from as low as 11" 15/16 on a very dry week
to 12" 1/8 during the rainy season.
so I know for sure that wood moves.. a lot.

[ben_allison]

insane! thanks bruce.

[changeling]

best thread ever.
thanks,bruce!
p.s.

got any futura templates?:p

p.p.s.
will you list them on ebay under luthier supplies or guitar parts?

[Bruce Bennett]

best thread ever.
thanks,bruce!
p.s.

got any futura templates?:p

p.p.s.
will you list them on ebay under luthier supplies or guitar parts?

Sorry, not yet, But if someone wants to send me a Futura, I gladly make some :D

But probably not gonna sell them. just the bodies and necks.

[Scott Auld]

I love how you call cutting up wood "Dicing it" ... like it's onions. :):D

Be sure you post a link to the eBay auctions in the Emporium.

[Bruce Bennett]

I love how you call cutting up wood "Dicing it" ... like it's onions. :):D

Be sure you post a link to the eBay auctions in the Emporium.


I've been called many times 'bout my somewhat Colorful Southern Speech patterns.

Goot thang I doesn't spells Likes I's talks.:D

and I guess it is like onions.. When I cut one wrong.. It makes me cry.

[Terry McInturff]

Will, wutevah makes yuh wrott sech intrestin' thangs is ok bah me. :)






I've been called many times 'bout my somewhat Colorful Southern Speech patterns.

Goot thang I doesn't spells Likes I's talks.:D

and I guess it is like onions.. When I cut one wrong.. It makes me cry.

[ben_allison]

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02427.jpg

Is that blood to the bottom right? I hope not!

SLOW DOWN! :drink

[Bruce Bennett]

Is that blood to the bottom right? I hope not!

SLOW DOWN! :drink

nah, just some analine stain that I was play'in 'round with one day.

If i ever cut myself.. I always make sure to bleed ON the guitar.


And Terry, I'mathank'inya fer them thar kind words. you'sa Fine upstand'in feller fer sure. Ya'll come on down and vist me when you'ins geta chancsh.

haha,, Seriously, My grandmother used to leave me notes on the screen door that read..

Gon 2 stor, B rat bac. yor samichs on da stov.

I always wondered if she was able to read and write correctly or if she was simply a product of the "telegram" generation..

[JS335]

Great thread. Thanks for taking the time to post and share pics.

[ben_allison]

If i ever cut myself.. I always make sure to bleed ON the guitar.

Well that's why I asked. I figured that's what builder's did, and was kind of taken aback by the apparent waste of blood. But all's right again!

[drezdin]

Quick question. I usually route the body from above with a hand router, but I recently tried to route a body out on a table and had several tear outs.
Does that type of bit in the picture help with tear out?

[Bruce Bennett]

Quick question. I usually route the body from above with a hand router, but I recently tried to route a body out on a table and had several tear outs.
Does that type of bit in the picture help with tear out?

Yes, the spiral bit kinda "screws the wood off"

:jo boy does that ever sound bad..

but seriously, That is the same type of bit they use in machine shops for metals. highly effective for material removal. just be real sure what KIND of material you feed it...


YIKES!


I just thought of something rather important to this question.

Look at the bit photo, not sure if you can see it, but there is a zero clearance board that I use with that bit. My normal router table has a 2" diameter hole for whatever bit you might use. but I add another board over the table that has almost no clearance between the bit and the hole it comes through. this give the wood a "close to the bit" surface for the bit to pull down against. and this helps a great deal with tearout as it helps support the wood while it's being cut.
so even if you purchase this type bit, without this board, you'll only encounter another TYPE of tearout from the one you just experienced. but with this board I get ALMOST no tearout, another piece of advise with this bit is of the best looking finish, make your last pass around the body as shallow a cut as is possible.

[Bruce Bennett]

Ok Because this Ebay auction for the body Shown in this thread has become SUCH AN ISSUE. and the simple fact that My normally "Blunt Personality" is making me look like an a** without me meaning to. I Have decided to post the following explaination..


I'm just getting started doing these bodies and necks.. and I'm not even sure if they will be worth doing.. SO.

I need to tell everyone that This whole ebay thing is an experiment to see what the market will bear. and sad to say, But it's brought out some rather bad traits in some folks... cheapness for one. and just plain being unreasonable for the other. I can't tell you how many Email "fights" this has already caused. and I really do wish to avoid any more unpleasantness.

That Said...

The body I have up right now is actually priced at the break even point at the 125.00 starting bid.. i actually need to sell them for 225.00 to come out right and feed the kids. and thats if I can sell about 10 a week.. a tough job by any luthiers standards. and many luthiers would say I was fairly cheap.

so understanding that. The necks would be priced at 475.00 each,

now, bear in mind that these prices would be for a neck and body pair that are neck pocket matched, fretted, inlaid, all holes drilled and for another 25.00 I'll even glue them for you. so inessence. a complete guitar with only sanding and finishing left to do, for a very realistic 725.00.

now if you add your finish and parts, then your looking at anywhere from 1300-1500.00. depending on if you do your own finish or hire it out, and what pickups/parts you choose. thats about what the current market should be for this guitar as a WHOLESALE price from my factory to the dealer in completed form. this would put the Street price at roughly 33% above the wholesale. or 1995.00 from the 1500.00 wholesale. add a hard case and you jump another 149.00(ruff est. for this sized case) to 2144.00 (hardly anyone makes a profit on cases anymore.) add any advertiseing costs to these figures and you can see why Gibson wants so much for their stuff. and don't even get me started on Employee beneifits packages.. yikes!:worried

I said all that to say this. I'm doing the best I can to make a living at building guitars for a reasonable price.. but too many folks are getting the idea that just because i put a starting auction price of 125.00 on a guitar body, that i can build them the complete guitar for maybe 300 total..
and some of them are becoming seriously pissed at me for quoteing them higher numbers than the auction price.

I'm Sorry, if my pricing might seem high, but that much work done dirt cheap is just not reasonable. it's MUCH more work to build a neck than a body. and you'll see it all in my thread next week. so you'll know that I'm not BSing anyone.

I Hope everyone can understand where I'm coming from. Guitars made in America with high standards were never "cheap" to begin with, and they most likely will never be as Inexpensive as they once were.

So, I'm done with all the argueing and apoligizeing for my wanting to feed my kids. to those that don't understand why things made here are expensive.. re-read the above...do some research... all the numbers are out there if you know where to look..


and to those that think a Great guitar should be able to be completely built in America for 725.00 or less and have someone else do the work.

GO LIVE IN CHINA PLEASE.

[DamianP]

Bruce. fwiw.
Your pricing seems unrealistically low to me.

My stock response to people who suggest that my work is too expensive is to offer to work at the same rate that they make. Then we see how "expensive" it is.

In fact, I have a special offer running at the moment. It is open to any customer in full time employment working 40 hours a week or more.

I will swap twice what I made in the last 6 months for half what they did.

So far, no takers!


Damian.

[rockinlespaul]

Nice work. Very reasonable prices imho...:AOK

[Bruce Bennett]

Bruce. fwiw.
Your pricing seems unrealistically low to me.

My stock response to people who suggest that my work is too expensive is to offer to work at the same rate that they make. Then we see how "expensive" it is.

In fact, I have a special offer running at the moment. It is open to any customer in full time employment working 40 hours a week or more.

I will swap twice what I made in the last 6 months for half what they did.

So far, no takers!


Damian.



I just get tired of spending all day answering price quote requests and then answering angry reply emails with an apology.

it takes the joy out of building guitars.

and then there are the guys that try to "Play the ends against the middle" and beat ya down based on So and So's pricing.
They just piss me off to the point where I wanna say "NO SOUP FOR YOU" ya know? but ya can't, because you gotta feed the kids. I really wish I has the Balls to treat them in a similar fashion when I come to their place of work and ask to purchase their products.. ya know?

So just how do you figure "your" rates, based on their wage? are you counting up the actual hours of a build? (I stopped doing that years ago because NO ONE could afford it! even at 7.00 per hr rates. I broke everything down to a "per job" basis now.)


I Just got back from looking at your site..
BEAUTIFUL GUITARS!. Excellent work!. I See I'm not the only one that Like the Hipshot Baby Grand..

So How did the London International Show Go for you? We are planning to do as many shows next year as money will permit and This show is on the list.

[Ian Anderson]

Shot of the new Grizzley joiner. for the bucks these are hard to beat. and I've owned Olivers', Northfields' and SCMIs'

Great units all.. but pricy.

We have Grizzly machinery all over the place @ Taylor. Right along side classic Oliver, Davis and Wells, SCMI, SAC, et al..

[sysexguy]

Hi Bruce, those guitars are beautiful!!!!

with regard to the customer issues......that's what selling is and why salespeople really earn their slice of pie. Selling direct can work fine but one has to account for the time and energy it takes to sell a product. The "no soup for you" tactic is probably the best strategy for a one man show, just like the guitars, you'll need to round of the edges.

Every second wasted with a tire kicker is a potential lost opportunity if you are unavailable to help a legitimate potential buyer. A great seller recovers from a no-go very quickly....next please.

Hagglers and tire kicking wannabes are instinctively like that, if you called at 4 am and woke them up, they'd start haggling....if McDonald's wouldn't throw them out, they'd haggle the happy meal price too.

There's always someone ready to do an inferior job for less money

And then there's the 80-20 rule, 20% of your customers cause 80% of the issues.

The best reply is not to take the haggling personally as an attack and reply with the most general statement possible ie. "it is understood by the guitar community that the current world economic situation doesn't permit discounting domestic hand made instruments, unless there are significant (and sometime invisible) compromises in quality"

...and I love those guitars

Andy

[Bruce Bennett]

We have Grizzly machinery all over the place @ Taylor. Right along side classic Oliver, Davis and Wells, SCMI, SAC, et al..

Thats very cool to hear that such a well known manufacturer is useing Grizzlly machines.
I understand that John Suhr Uses quite a few of Grizzlys' machines.. at least that what Grizzly tells me.

[Bruce Bennett]

Hi Bruce, those guitars are beautiful!!!!

with regard to the customer issues......that's what selling is and why salespeople really earn their slice of pie. Selling direct can work fine but one has to account for the time and energy it takes to sell a product. The "no soup for you" tactic is probably the best strategy for a one man show, just like the guitars, you'll need to round of the edges.

Every second wasted with a tire kicker is a potential lost opportunity if you are unavailable to help a legitimate potential buyer. A great seller recovers from a no-go very quickly....next please.

Hagglers and tire kicking wannabes are instinctively like that, if you called at 4 am and woke them up, they'd start haggling....if McDonald's wouldn't throw them out, they'd haggle the happy meal price too.

There's always someone ready to do an inferior job for less money

And then there's the 80-20 rule, 20% of your customers cause 80% of the issues.

The best reply is not to take the haggling personally as an attack and reply with the most general statement possible ie. "it is understood by the guitar community that the current world economic situation doesn't permit discounting domestic hand made instruments, unless there are significant (and sometime invisible) compromises in quality"

...and I love those guitars

Andy

Andy

Thank you for the compliment, it's is greatly appreciated.

Your quite right, and I know it,

I also know that I should stay "behind the bench" so to speak. I'm not a salesman and could never be one.

I'd probably shoot customers first and let God sort them out. Which is why I partnered up with Kevin Maxfield.
He's like one of those guys that is EVERYONES best friend. Heck, He can even stand to hang out with me.:messedup

So, If you interested in one of our guitars..you Probably want to talk to Kevin...

I'll just go make some sawdust now.:banana

[DamianP]

So just how do you figure "your" rates, based on their wage? are you counting up the actual hours of a build? (I stopped doing that years ago because NO ONE could afford it! even at 7.00 per hr rates. I broke everything down to a "per job" basis now.)


I Just got back from looking at your site..
BEAUTIFUL GUITARS!. Excellent work!. I See I'm not the only one that Like the Hipshot Baby Grand..

So How did the London International Show Go for you? We are planning to do as many shows next year as money will permit and This show is on the list.


I just use the wage rate thing as a gentle hint that maybe, sometimes things aren`t always as expensive as they seem. It never gets as far as actual calculations for the reason you describe.

Regarding the London show. I`m not sure I`d do it again. The organisers have changed the format and venue in recent years, both of which have led to reduced visitor numbers.
Even though it was my first "public appearance" and I had no pre-show publicity I was pretty disapointed with my personal visitor numbers. That being said The visitors I had were all positive.

On balance It was a good way to get the ball rolling (although it was far from cheap and the ball is, so far, rolling very slowly!)

Damian.

P.S. Back to you with the kind words.

[GuitarDiscountCenter]

any updates on the necks being built??

[Bruce Bennett]

Yes, I plan to start posting the neck build photos on monday next week.
I got caught with a rush job this week and had to let the necks sit for a while.


I also started a Mahogany single piece moderne body and neck .
for myself.

Can't wait to play this one.

[dyer_maker]

Those Modernes look sharp, but what about a real deal Korina V? That would be mighty tasty.

[MBreinin]

I love Modernes. I would really like a GOOD one and don't feel like springing for one of the Gibson reissues.

Very cool.

Mike

[Bruce Bennett]

Those Modernes look sharp, but what about a real deal Korina V? That would be mighty tasty.

At the "Destroy All Guitars" web site you can see one of the best Korina Flying "V"s I've ever seen.
By Koll Guitars. 3795.00 I think. Worth every penny too.

I've always had a fascination with the Moderne.. So thats what I'll stick too

[Bruce Bennett]

Yes, I plan to start posting the neck build photos on monday next week.
I got caught with a rush job this week and had to let the necks sit for a while.


I also started a Mahogany single piece moderne body and neck .
for myself.

Can't wait to play this one.

here's a quick shot of the body with the neck template on it and the real 3 piece mahogany neck beside it.
I'm thinking I may finish this neck and sell it on ebay then do another one in 1 piece mahogany just because...


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02442-1.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Is that blood to the bottom right? I hope not!

SLOW DOWN! :drink


Well Ben, you got your wish..

about a day later I did it.. a small one... but across 3 fingers.

and see where I put the blood... It's in one of the modernes now...

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02439.jpg


Humm. Do I look at little anemic to ya'll?

Guess I had better eat more peanut butter.

[Bruce Bennett]

Stack-O-Modernes!


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02444.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

here's how I started the necks for the modernes.
After I cut some korina to neck blank length, I joined one edge.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02435.jpg

[Bruce Bennett]

Then I sized them on the table saw into blanks that you see here,
Monday morning I will resaw these into the smaller pieces that will make up a 3 piece neck. each blank will make 2 necks... hopefully..

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/shrimpopen/DSC02438.jpg

[GuitarDiscountCenter]

Looking great!

[murkat]

Very Nice, Bruce, If you entertain the idea of running an Explorer, please, let me know!