Losing Interest in Custom Order

[clarkram]

I know some of you guys must fit this profile. Just curious if/when you lose interest in a custom order due to the wait times? Assume you have paid a deposit.

I am at the 18 month mark now (at the time of order I was quoted 12 months) and the guitar is still many months from completion. At this juncture I am finding that my interest in the instrument has dropped almost to the point of I don't care about it anymore.....

So I was wondering, for those that do lose interest in an order, how long before you lose interest?

Now, before you lecture me on the nature of custom builds, I have been through the process twice with Ron Thorn and once with Joe Driskill, so I am familiar with the ups and downs of the process.

So, how long before you lose interest?

[mark norwine]

I've only had one guitar made for me, a McCurdy Kenmare archtop. My interest grew & grew for the 1-1/2 year wait.

Then, when the guitar was ready for lacquer, 9/11 happened. Ric's shop is 4 blocks from WTC, and there was so much dust in the air, he couldn't spray lacquer for another month. This only strengthened my resolve: I couldn't wait!

By the time it was delivered, I was at fever pitch.

At no time did I lose interest.

Sorry.....not what you wanted to hear, I suppose....

[DamianP]

Maybe a builder with shorter lead times would have been a better choice.

Damian.

[clarkram]

At no time did I lose interest.

Sorry.....not what you wanted to hear, I suppose....

Not at all, glad you ended up with your guitar. I'm sure there are many that stay focused with anticipation.

[dwes]

All of the guitars guitars, amps and pedals I've ordered were/are late PRS Private Stock, Driskill, Thorn, Goodall, Keeley, blah, blah, blahhhh...

My excitement for each instrument diminsished, if at all, by the length of time past due (several years in one instance) and by the level of trust I had in the builder. If I felt like I was being fed shit, it didn't help. I ended up dropping one of my guitar builds after four years +, no end in sight and a big pile of crap.

I did spec a Grosh that arrived early!:dude Go Don!

Dave

[mark norwine]

Not at all, glad you ended up with your guitar. I'm sure there are many that stay focused with anticipation.

Part of it might have been that I sold off several other really nice (and well played & loved) guitars & amps to finance the McCurdy in the first place.

Had this just been a cash purchase, well.....who knows? I suppose I might have felt differently

[Dave Orban]

I've only had one guitar made for me, a McCurdy Kenmare archtop. My interest grew & grew for the 1-1/2 year wait.

Then, when the guitar was ready for lacquer, 9/11 happened. Ric's shop is 4 blocks from WTC, and there was so much dust in the air, he couldn't spray lacquer for another month. This only strengthened my resolve: I couldn't wait!

By the time it was delivered, I was at fever pitch.

At no time did I lose interest.

Sorry.....not what you wanted to hear, I suppose....You're SUCH a tease...!

[eric-d]

It really depends for me. If it's something like waiting for the KOT or a Toneczar (I know it's not a custom made guitar - but it's the only relevance I have to your situation) - where I didn't have to put down money - the wait time really doesn't bother me that badly. I call them about once a month and see how they're doing and progressing with the items. If IT is paid for - I HATE waiting. It drives me absolutely bonkers. I try to refrain from calling the builder because I don't want to piss them off - but I still check in. If I order (paid in full) a custom or "boutique" Item - I really hate waiting more than 2-3 months.

[Luke]

It is irresponsible of builder's to quote unrealistic wait times. When you enter into a contractual agreement to buy a guitar for X dollars and for it to be delivered by Y date, both sides should be committed to completing the agreement as agreed. For whatever reason, builder's always seem to come up with excuses as to their lateness, but for what ever reason they never feel they should lower the agreed on price due to their inability to close the deal as originally described. The buyer is always just expect to understand "things come up".

[VegasGreg]

I know some of you guys must fit this profile. Just curious if/when you lose interest in a custom order due to the wait times? Assume you have paid a deposit.

I am at the 18 month mark now (at the time of order I was quoted 12 months) and the guitar is still many months from completion. At this juncture I am finding that my interest in the instrument has dropped almost to the point of I don't care about it anymore.....

So I was wondering, for those that do lose interest in an order, how long before you lose interest?

Now, before you lecture me on the nature of custom builds, I have been through the process twice with Ron Thorn and once with Joe Driskill, so I am familiar with the ups and downs of the process.

So, how long before you lose interest?


I've been there. I was told a high end guitar from a well known and respected builder was ready to ship. I even had pictures of it from the builder.

8 months later-still no guitar. And I tried to keep the faith, but didn't.

Order cancelled, got another guitar from another builder that really turned me on to his work. So there was a silver lining to my wait.

[clothwiring]

If I have to wait that long...I'm not ordering it. Not worth it to me.

[clarkram]

Yeah, about 18 months it gets like that. I'm sure I'll be stoked when I get it. But you're hot to trot to order, and then you wait, and wait and then your kids are two years older, your back feels two years older. Starts to feel like it's been a long time.

I've got 3 custom guitars, 1 custom amp, and 1 custom amp switcher on order. And I basically just hope I get them before arthritis gets me. Like I said, I'm sure I'll be thrilled when they do show up, and once in a blue moon when I get an e-mail from the one guitar builder who does occassionally ask me a question (all the rest NEVER e-mail or contact me) I do light up a bit. Still, for now, pfft.

Yeah, I'm 57 now , still gig, but I figure I only have a few good years left to do this stuff, pissing away a couple of years waiting at my age is more than annoying.

[Guitar James]

Depends on who the builder is and how much I want their work.

[diego]

I hit the wall at eighteen months as well on a project.

[dr.morton]

For me it depends on the kind guitar. IMO 6-12 months is acceptable if you only have to make a small deposit (1/4th or 1/3rd of the final price).
Such a guitar should offer unique features available nowhere else.

For a 50% deposit or a rather standard work (the usual PRS/LP/Strat copy) my limit would be 6 months.

But I would only going custom(or semi custom) if it is clear that the guitar is either my ultimate dream guitar (not just the current fency) or a real good investment.

I am currently waiting for my semi-custom dream guitar and the 5-6 months wait time gives me the chance to save the money needed.

[fretnot]

I don't think it's the long wait that is the problem...it's being told a certain wait time, and then it goes way beyond that.

[Jahn]

Personally i blame myself. When the build starts I have my "dream guitar" in mind. But GAS being what it is, i think "hmm THIS pickup would be nice" or "bigsby?" or "i really want everything quartersawn" or "body contour?" I bet luthiers hate guys like me. On the other hand the long wait times let me really pin down exactly what i want, and by the end i feel like i was really a part of the process, down to the last screw. much better than putting in an order, and sitting twiddling my thumbs while the idea sours on me. heck, i think of one new thing every week just as an excuse to head over there and say "satin neck, varnish body, whaddya think?" and talk it out. (btw, the bigsby idea got shot down, but we did swap neck pickups from a minibucker to a fullsized low wind PAF type.)

[dr.morton]

One other thing.
Any waiting list should be reasonable.
UK based Blackmachine guitars for example is a small one man company. They offered six slots for 2009 which were taken in a few weeks. After that they simply closed the books with no further waiting list. If you intend to get one of their guitars you'll have to visit their site on a regular basis. Somewhere in 2009 they'll most likely offer slots for 2010. That should give you plenty of thinking time.

[XKnight]

I have a very short attention span, so anything that takes more than a week usually results in my loss of interest. Obviously custom builds aren't for me.

[Walter Broes]

18 months? I'd have forgotten about it by then!

[Shane S]

Ah, the wait. The hardest thing. Well I have ordered and have on order many custom guitars. The longest one is at 31 months a counting. As long as I have communication with the builder it is no big deal. When there is communication breakdown or none at all is when the wait sucks.

[paintguy]

Only 1 even took 18 months plus. And I never got it... I wouldn't say I had ever lost interest after 18 months, but I was a bit disappointed. My only truly bad experience was a order made with a current wait time of about 12-14 months and after 18 months my body and top woods were still blocks on a shelf. Again, disappointing but no loss of interest.

The builder then refunded my deposit against my wishes.

I could go on and on about the builders ego, the decepetion of what he actually does and what he contracts out, back stabbing, etc... that I had witnessed but really it turned out for the best. I wasn't comfortable knowing all the deception and being expected to play along and protect the lies of the builder.

A total lack of communication and/or updates on my build bothered me as well. A simple form type email to all his clients explaining the delays or lack of progress could have gone a long way and it might have even eased most clients pain.

Besides, other are still waiting 3 plus years now.

So clarkram, it's a tough call. It might be worth it in the end. But, when is the end? Does the builder communicate with you? What is your relationship like with him? How will you feel about it if you already have lost much interest? Will he refund your deposit? Does the builder have good reasons for being late? Is he just stroking you? Lots of un-answered questions.


Bottom line for me, after being quoted 12 months and being at 18 months,
I wouldn't lose interest, I would just be disappointed and a little or a lot frustrated. After investing 18 months, what's few more?

[clarkram]

just venting a little frustration, ok, more than a little.

[Irreverent]

Dude. I'd get my money back and call Cliff at DAG. He works with a lot of great builders, like Matt Artinger, who built me a magnificent guitar, ON SCHEDULE!

Good luck!

[uOpt]

Are we talking a Fender style bolt-on here?

I think it makes a difference to the builder. A bolt-on can be parted out to other customers, using the deposit earned to make special prices for those who pick one of the parts.

That's much harder to do with a guitar that can't be split up.

[bbocaner]

I've been waiting 6 and a half years for one instrument... It's been so long that I certainly do have the "don't care anymore" additude... but it will be nice if it ever does show up, although I've long since spent the money I was saving for the balance due.

[dwes]

I've been waiting 6 and a half years for one instrument... It's been so long that I certainly do have the "don't care anymore" additude... but it will be nice if it ever does show up, although I've long since spent the money I was saving for the balance due.

Sad. What was the expected delivery time?

:(

[jamess]

It was said earlier, but I'll restate that your relationship with the builder is a big factor for me and wait times, regardless of regular communications.

I've had a guitar on order for quite awhile and I rarely communicate with the builder, but that's really my choice. I am confident that if I sent him an email today I'd hear back in a reasonable time. Anytime I have called, which is rare, he has always taken my call and told me what is up. I have felt no deception. If I did, then I am not working with the right builder for me and would change plans.

Other circumstances also come into play, for example:

- Do you currently have another instrument that you love to play?
- Has your life and/or priorities changed significantly?
- Have your finances changed for the worse?
- Has your musical direction and interests changed?
- Have you made numerous change requests to your original order?
- Is your build particularly complex with potential unknown set-backs?

Lots of factors to consider. But I'll say again that when you enter into a custom build project you need to feel confident in who you're working with or I can easily see how it would get frustrating as the time passes by.

[Flyin' Brian]

At 61 I'm pretty careful with wait times....

I'm almost afraid to buy green bananas. http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg186/marchbirthdays/Smileys/old.gif

[enharmonic]

It completely depends on what I was told vs what the reality tends to be. If a builder is straight up about it, I'll wait 2 years...no sweat. i understand delays. things come up. The person who feels the worst about it is often the builder. We love these guitars, but it's their livelihood...ya know?

Having said that, my experience with the Custom Shop of one of the large companies was a debacle. What i was told would be 12 months turned into 18-20 months as I recall. Had I been told 18-20 months...no problem. Also...never once received a call from them to keep me in the loop or even discuss the instrument...had to find out by calling my dealer every few weeks. Total buzz kill.

[John Page]

I thought I'd pipe in from a builder's point of view, one who is oft times late with my estimates. I never tell someone "it's going to be about a year" if I think for a moment it's going to be 18 months. I always think I can do it in that time, but as it and all the rest of the instruments progress... I fall behind. It is never meant as a tool to get someone to order, or to take advantage of a customer. I don't know about other builders, but I end up sick with stress when I have customers waiting beyond my estimate. I stop taking orders when I feel I have what I can do in a year and yet I still fall behind. Building custom guitars is an artistic process and you can't always create the instrument in a concrete time frame.

All that being said, I think that it is imperative for the builder to communicate as often as possible with clients in queue.

A big thanks to all of my extremely patient clients and apologies for my tardiness.

Jeez... do I have to say 20 Hail Leos now?

[jamess]

Jim Soloway - regardless of your acoustic playing abilities, you have exquisite taste in acoustic builders, if I read between the lines of your post correctly.

[clarkram]

At 61 I'm pretty careful with wait times....

I'm almost afraid to buy green bananas. http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg186/marchbirthdays/Smileys/old.gif


LOL DAMN thats funny.


Hey, I'm just venting a little, yes, I wish I had the guitar, I could actually make use of it in my current band situation (but I have no shortage of nice gits to use), at this point I just hope it lives up to my sonic expectations.

I've just finished 3 amaretto and vodkas and did a quick run through of tomorrows gig sets, so I'll live with it (for now).

Gig Spam: The Cave in Kennesaw Ga, tomorrow nite (9:30 til.)

[MikeyG]

26 months for me. I go long periods without it crossing my mind. At 18 months I toyed with canceling, but decided to stick it out. This builders price and quality make it worth it.

[clarkram]

i don't care about a late delivery, only a poor one.

Point taken, and a good one at that.

[dharmafool]

I don't think it's the long wait that is the problem...it's being told a certain wait time, and then it goes way beyond that.

Exactly. Turnaround time estimates are not a higher order skill. I think some builders don't realize they lose respect of customers when they quote a "reasonable" TAT and simply hope the job gets out on time.

[matte]

Point taken, and a good one at that.everyone has their own threshold. follow your heart (but don't rob yourself of the possibility of getting a truly personalized and exceptional instrument.)

[TD_Madden]

I ordered a limited-run amp about a year ago, with the first promise being it would be ready in November, then this past January, then whenever it's done. I put 1/2 down......

I exchange emails about once a month with the builder, and I do get progress reports....but I am still antsy about it.

Supposedly it will be shipping in August...a year after ordering...and of course I need to find the other half of the payment.

IF it shows up, then I guess I'll have to find something else to look forward to!

[Jack Briggs]

I have to echo what John Page has stated. I never try to lead a customer on or knowingly misstate a build time. It always seems to take more time than I estimate. Maybe one of these days I'll get the estimate closer to correct!

Thanks to all that have open orders with me for their patience as I work to get their instrument finished. I would rather have mud slung at me for being off on the built time quote than to have someone unhappy with their instrument because of corners being cut to expedite an order- I just can't live with that.

[Down and Out in NYC]

Heavy Sigh............................

[bbrunskill]

I waited 8 months for a bolt on guitar with only a custom finish and pickups, everything else was same as a stock guitar. That got my goat!

I think it's important to have good gear to play on while you wait, otherwise you will go crazy.
Mine was worth the wait. Yours will be too.

[dwes]

[quote=Jim Soloway;4515383]
And I'll second what John Page said, when we're late on delivery of a guitar, it just eats me up. I literally can't sleep at night. As a result, we've gotten really good at delivering on time or early, not because we're good guys but just because I don't need the anxiety of being late.


Jim, you delivered an stunning instrument in all respects sooner than expected. I am very appreciative!
Dave

[paintguy]

I would rather have mud slung at me for being off on the built time quote than to have someone unhappy with their instrument because of corners being cut to expedite an order- I just can't live with that.

Point well taken! I can totally understand that. I don't think any builders really cut corners just to expedite a order, do they?

Jack, what's the longest you have been off your original estimate if you don't mind me asking?

[aram]

I feel bad because I've spent a lot of time promoting Rick Kelly guitars here.

I really believe in what hes doing, and the quality, workmanship, and materials for the price is a steal.

The downside is that because he runs a shop, people here have been waiting 6 months to a year to get their guitars.

And he's definately more old school- i've never known him to give an exact wait time.

But when they are done, they have such character.

[TED STEVENSON]

I have to echo what John Page has stated. I never try to lead a customer on or knowingly misstate a build time. It always seems to take more time than I estimate. Maybe one of these days I'll get the estimate closer to correct!

Thanks to all that have open orders with me for their patience as I work to get their instrument finished. I would rather have mud slung at me for being off on the built time quote than to have someone unhappy with their instrument because of corners being cut to expedite an order- I just can't live with that.

I agree. Usually when a customer gets his guitar and sees that it's really well built he forgets about the wait time.

[Down and Out in NYC]

Must resist urge to throw up all over this thread.

:tapedshut

[fretnot]

Must resist urge to throw up all over this thread.

:tapedshut


I am starting to have a little post traumatic stress myself...I never understood how you can quote someone 9 months and then take 3 years unless you were hit by a bus or something. It's like, "Yeah, I know I told you 9 months 3 years ago, but if I said 3 years, you would not have given me any of your money."

[dspblues]

I don't mind the wait at all as long as the deposit is small. I think my Callaham was $200 or $300 down at the time I got on the list.

[Jon C]

in part I think it depends on the expectation the builder sets, doesn't it? It does to some extent for me.

I've dealt enough with hand made instruments in 30+ yrs. (have become good friends with some high quality luthiers) that I tend to take whatever estimate is given to me and I may even in some cases double it (dep. on who I'm dealing with, LOL) ... quality takes time, not all can run on deadline or assembly line specs ... wood is a living thing, it doesn't always do exactly what we want it to ... life interferes with all of our plans, including small scale artisans/craftsmen like many small volume guitar builders ... which is why I come back to expectations and patience.

What John Page said is exactly what my luthier friends & I have talked about... no one (of repute) wants to give an artificially short estimate and then blow it ... but things can & do happen, with wood, with life, etc.

Just a couple of examples: a recent custom order from a well known but small volume Tele-type quality one man shop was estimated at about 6-7 months... mentally I figured give it at least 8-9; when I got the email after about 7 mos. that it was ready I was not disappointed at all.... when I had a vintage guitar refin'd a few yrs. ago I got a 6 mo. estimate; knowing the person who was doing it (both quality and timing), I figured a year ... 12 mos. later it was ready and worth every minute of the wait.

Expectations figure into this a lot, I think. If I go in with a 6 month window, 18 mos. doesn't look so good... if I go into it quoted a 1 yr.+ wait, the same 18 mos. looks a little different. YMMV.

jc

[imissmj]

It seems that managing expectations is a dying art in business. Builders will often say "If I spent all day calling people to tell them why things are delayed, that just delays the building another day." Well, that's true, but the end result of that day of phone calls is customers who feel they are in the loop and not being deceived. It's the not knowing that and lack of communication that is the most inexcusable. Most people are reasonable when it comes to delays I would think.

My last custom order was through a very reputable dealer. I only bugged him once or twice during the build and both times was assured there was still time to choose electronics, etc and that I'd be contacted. During those exchanges I was also given dates that would always pass. Finally I got the word that the guitar was done. My response was "Oh really? That's interesting considering I never chose the pickups." I love the guitar but when I spend that much money on an item, you expect some decent service. Especially from a dealer who basically just forwarded my emailed specs to the builder. The last email I sent to the dealer about the guitar (asking about the inlay because he's already seen the guitar) never even got returned. I guess I won't be ordering from them again.

Sorry to rant, but I think it's the poor managing of expectations and communication that is the real problem with custom orders. If people are in the loop, they tend to feel part of the process.

[telecopter]

You guys have waaayy more patience than I do....

[2x6L6]

Interesting psychology behind all this stuff. Communication is certainly key as has been mentioned, which hopefully leads to a trust between builder and client.

My first custom with Scott Heatley I think was a bit over a year, which was about what was promised, as I recall - but the communication was solid so there was never any concern. I will never forget the fever pitch all along - unbelievable! And the fever peak near the end was radical! Very hard to control when your appetite is beyond whetted. But no complaints about that process, because when I needed info, it was available, and progress was predictable and delivered as promised.

This second time around, knowing way more what to expect, I spec'd a guitar with Scott and basically walked away. He told me from the get-go this was going to be a long wait as he was just developing the specs for this guitar and I was one of the first in the hopper. I think we started on specs a shade less than two years ago, with an actual “order” ($$ exchanged) placed 18 months ago. I go for long periods of time without thinking about the guitar - but again, when I decide I could use an update, I give Scott a shout and get an update. It's been kinda nice to not be too pumped up about this guitar - I know it will be delivered, I know we are getting close, and I know it will be great. It does help having other well-loved guitars to play in the meantime also.

I expect sometime in the next several months Scott will email a fully-assembled picture, call and tell me he is about to shoot nitro, and then I will let the fever flow!

Not a plug for Scott per se, but I think a plug for communication, trust and demonstrable progress. I would abhor a wait this long without those elements; with ‘em – no biggie.

[Down and Out in NYC]

I am starting to have a little post traumatic stress myself...I never understood how you can quote someone 9 months and then take 3 years unless you were hit by a bus or something. It's like, "Yeah, I know I told you 9 months 3 years ago, but if I said 3 years, you would not have given me any of your money."



I believe you and I are dealing with the same gent.

In my case he was always very vague with timeframes. He did mention it shouldnt be more than 2 years. In August we'll be celebrating our 3rd anniversary.

I've had some communication with :tapedshut lately. I was told, hey good news Paul, the people from Wagner were here the other day, ya know, those people from the wood moisture reading company, they wanted to see my shop. And the really good news is your wood is ready. What really pissed me off was that he told me my wood was ready over 20 months ago, that it wood be cut within 3 months. Apparantly he totaly forgot the previous communication were he told me the wood was ready.

It's not the wait that bothers me. If I was told it would be this long, I'm pretty sure I would've placed the order anyway. I wouldn't have paid more than 90 % up front. :jo It's the lack of communication and hearing about F'in screws for almost 3 years now.

Heres a ? for any body whose qualified to answer. How hard is it to make a F'in screw ? From my accounts it harder than space travel.

:)

[John Page]

"Heres a ? for any body whose qualified to answer. How hard is it to make a F'in screw ?"

...if it's a "magic" screw, it takes a long, long time.

[Down and Out in NYC]

"Heres a ? for any body whose qualified to answer. How hard is it to make a F'in screw ?"

...if it's a "magic" screw, it takes a long, long time.

I needed a good belly laugh.

Thanks :AOK

[paintguy]

I believe you and I are dealing with the same gent.

In my case he was always very vague with timeframes. He did mention it shouldnt be more than 2 years. In August we'll be celebrating our 3rd anniversary.

I've had some communication with :tapedshut lately. I was told, hey good news Paul, the people from Wagner were here the other day, ya know, those people from the wood moisture reading company, they wanted to see my shop. And the really good news is your wood is ready. What really pissed me off was that he told me my wood was ready over 20 months ago, that it wood be cut within 3 months. Apparantly he totaly forgot the previous communication were he told me the wood was ready.

It's not the wait that bothers me. If I was told it would be this long, I'm pretty sure I would've placed the order anyway. I wouldn't have paid more than 90 % up front. :jo It's the lack of communication and hearing about F'in screws for almost 3 years now.

Heres a ? for any body whose qualified to answer. How hard is it to make a F'in screw ? From my accounts it harder than space travel.

:)

I have no idea who you are dealing with but I have a few ideas...

I agree with so many of the things mentioned by members and builders. Communication is key and many who are uptight wouldn't be if they heard from their builder every once in a while.

As far as quoting 9 months and going on 3 years? Come on now. Delays happen, but not 2 year delays. Man I could go on and on....

The story about the wood being ready (20 months after he told you it was ready) reminds me of one thing I figured out about 30 years ago when I first got in the paint business.

I always tell the truth and don't lie and then I don't have to remember those lies later down the road. I know a lie will come back to bite me in the @ss later and that my customer is going to know I'm full of B.S. It takes a lot of time to earn respect and trust and that can be lost in a heartbeat with a lie.

Damn, just man up and tell it like it is. More than often the truth will go over some much better than a B.S. story and I find the customers are way more forgiving when I tell them the truth.

This thread touches a nerve with me as well due to one bad experience. But one bad experience hasn't ruined my love for small builder guitars. And although I speak of the bad experience, it is over and water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. Bottom line is I would order (actually have) from a small builder again and have nothing but the utmost respect for most of the builders who frequent this site.

John Page and Jack Briggs are two of the finest builders around, and there are quite a few others that pop in and out of TGP.

Ok, I'm done for now, Party on...

[Jon Silberman]

I'm in the midst of a custom build right now. All I can say is, one, I dream about it - day and night - almost every day, two, yes, it is taking longer than expected, three, the builder is a wonderful person and friend who never minds me calling or emailing just to check in so I'm going with the flow and enjoying the ride. :)

[VegasGreg]

The overriding theme here seems to be that with proper communication, the wait is OK. I would agree with this, as I'm intelligent enough to know that unforeseen delays are sometimes inevitable. In this case I would say that builder communication with the buyer is paramount to making a completed transaction happen.

Unfortunately, in my situation (briefly described earlier in this thread), there was no honest communication, thereby making my choice to cancel my order easy. I'd still love to have that original guitar, but my life did go on without it.

[Londoncalling]

I have never ordered something that took 18 plus months to arrive. I have waited a year (not a guitar) for something I ordered. I don't mind waiting for things as log as they arrive on time. Once things get late I tend to lose interest/gain annoyance in proportion to the delay and relative to how much I trust the builder.

Even given all of that, 18 months would feel like a long time to me. Good Luck!

[Down and Out in NYC]

I'm in the midst of a custom build right now. All I can say is, one, I dream about it - day and night - almost every day, two, yes, it is taking longer than expected, three, the builder is a wonderful person and friend who never minds me calling or emailing just to check in so I'm going with the flow and enjoying the ride. :)

Thankfully, this morning when I woke up I'm much more in the goin with the flow frame of mind. Last night was a different story all together. Man was I pissed.

[rhp52]

Considering all the varibles a builder should have a better feel for the time it will take.

If he quoted 12 mos. and it is now 18, unless he's in the hospital and cannot get to his shop what excuses can he use that are valid?

I see this type of behaviour more and more and not just in guitar builders. What pisses me off is when i have to chase people down to get them to respond and after they don't return e-mails or phone calls.

It's a crappy way to do business talented builder or not. Especially true for bolt on neck guitars. That's BS. Maybe a few cancellations will make them reconsider.

Just for balance, there are a few builders who keep their word. If someone values their word so little I don't want to do business with them anyway.

if i ran my business this way I'd starve.

[c-dub]

I cant wait 5 freakin minutes! Hell, it kills me to wait the couple of days for one to be shipped. That's why I buy all the killer used ones you guys spec out and then sell.

;)

[stoob0t]

Back when Reverend did USA built guitars to order i picked up a couple. The waiting time only ended up being a few months, unlike the six months wait i'd expected. I'm a very impatient person, and if it hadn't been for excellent communications i would have probably got quite frustrated, so i can imagine how an 18 month wait must feel for you.

Personally with minimal communication from the builder (ie. an email at the start, and then one at the end of building) I would probably give up at the 12 month mark.

But then, I think the key here is definately good communication. When a builder keeps sending you the odd email every month, maybe even a few pictures of the process here and there - it's easy to keep interest and keep licking your lips. I honestly feel, the more visual updates the builder gives you the less likely you are to lose interest - being told what progression has been made, and actually seeing it with your own eyes are two very different things.

The downside is however, for most builders i can't imagine that they have much time to do this - considering the knock it might have with their workload.

[n.j.]

I ordered a guitar from Mr. Briggs in June 2006, was quoted 10-12 months and had it in my hands in July 2007. Perfect guitar, perfect delivery time. Thanks again, Jack.

At present I have a Stevens Classic on order, I put my deposit in in March of this year and was quoted 18 months. Fall of 2009 if everything goes according to plan. That'll be the longest I've waited for any piece of gear ever, but man is it going to be worth it.

I would be upset with a custom order if I was quoted one time and then had to wait much, much longer, but only if the builder didn't communicate. I guess I've gotten lucky by dealing with Jack and Michael.

[John Hurtt]

Many of the time issues of custom builders are caused by the guys placing the orders. I have had four custom guitars built and one in progress now. I changed the specs on my first guitar a couple times and the builder was nothing but supportive even though I knew that it was costing him time on my build as well as his other orders. Another builder was basically starting over from scratch and I knew his time estimate was pretty optimstic so when it ran over a few months I was unconcerned.

I'm also wondering if the unnamed builders getting beat up on in this thread would have a slightly different version of the events that caused the build to run over time.

[clarkram]

Many of the time issues of custom builders are caused by the guys placing the orders. I have had four custom guitars built and one in progress now. I changed the specs on my first guitar a couple times and the builder was nothing but supportive even though I knew that it was costing him time on my build as well as his other orders. Another builder was basically starting over from scratch and I knew his time estimate was pretty optimstic so when it ran over a few months I was unconcerned.

I'm also wondering if the unnamed builders getting beat up on in this thread would have a slightly different version of the events that caused the build to run over time.

Nothing like that at all...straight up non fancy guitar, no order changes from me, all contacts (except for one) have been initiated by me.

It is not my intent to beat up on any builders (thats why I didn't name him). I just wanted to know how long before you lose interest in what you ordered.

[57special]

I ordered a guitar from Mr. Briggs in June 2006, was quoted 10-12 months and had it in my hands in July 2007. Perfect guitar, perfect delivery time. Thanks again, Jack.

At present I have a Stevens Classic on order, I put my deposit in in March of this year and was quoted 18 months. Fall of 2009 if everything goes according to plan. That'll be the longest I've waited for any piece of gear ever, but man is it going to be worth it.

I would be upset with a custom order if I was quoted one time and then had to wait much, much longer, but only if the builder didn't communicate. I guess I've gotten lucky by dealing with Jack and Michael.

He was a month late! Hang 'em!

[GuitarGuy510]

I've had two small luthier builds (one custom and one "production") delivered already from one luthier and another one in progress from a different builder. They have all been great for me so far. My custom took 22 months and I never lost interest in it. If I called the builder (which happend more than I should have :messedup) I almost ALWAYS got him that day, or if not, heard from him within the next day or so. The thing for me was that the guitar was, and still is, very special to me and I knew it was in great hands so when it got done, it got done. Period.

The project I have going right now is going on 9 months (and almost done too! :banana) and I've been just as excited regardless of whether it took 9 months or 22. I know to expect a quality guitar whenever it is done and I don't mind waiting longer for an artisan to do his thing. Both luthiers I've worked with have been incredibly cool guys, always up for a conversation and some laughs and the work coming out of both of their shops is top-notch. I think the problem is that some guys focus more on the wait time than the prize at the end. If you order something with inlays or special order woods etc. you should know from the get-go that you might be waiting a bit longer than quoted. If you order a plain-jane guitar but you're at the end of a long waiting list, you should plan accordingly and know from the start that the quoted wait time is probably just an estimate rather than a hard delivery date.

My take on it is that if you want instant gratification and can't stand a potential 2-3 year wait time, look for either a used guitar or a production guitar and forget the whole small luthier deal. More often than not you will end up with a great product but sometimes that also means you'll have to wait, especially if the luthier is growing in popularity on forums like this. You're in line just like 50-100 other guys and gals are and sometimes that takes more time than you would like. :hide

[soli528]

I haven't ever done the custom guitar thing but the idea certainly has my interest (namely ever since seeing a couple of Clarkram's gits at an ampfest here a couple years ago). I have however, gone this route with amps. I've never had anything come in earlier than the given wait time, but I also have not had to wait more than a few months past the promised time.
A couple pages ago in this thread someone mentioned not wanting to piss off the builders by checking in too often. This was something I struggled with also, and I don't know why the customer is put in this position, especially when there are large amts. paid up front. Why is it that the customer is made to feel like a nuisance when they're only trying to get what they were promised at the time it was promised, or at least some valid information as to the nature of the delay, and an accurate revised time quote? There is so much "well we're sturggling with the business right now and really just trying to keep from going under" and the like that the customer always ends up capitulating and even apologizing for the dire straits that this/that builder is in! Why does this happen? Is it because the builder is engaged in some sort of mystical alchemy in turning wood and metal into instruments that are beyond the capabilities of mere mortals, and we (the customer) are just thankful that we may be the recipient of such divine product? This is the the main thing that keeps me from diving in this pool, and leaves me scouring the emporium for something second-hand.

[VegasGreg]

This is the the main thing that keeps me from diving in this pool, and leaves me scouring the emporium for something second-hand.


This shouldn't keep you from diving in at all. You might be missing out on a great instrument.

I can only speak for myself, but I only had my personal issue with ONE builder (although I did see signs I was going to have issues with a second builder).

On the other hand, I've worked with several other builders that also build stellar guitars, and I've never had an unpleasant experience with any of them.

PM people, talk to them on the phone, get all of the info you can on a chosen builder before you dive in headfirst.

[Mike Duncan]

My order wasn't / isn't custom at all, but I'm losing interest in it fast. I ordered my PRS DGT Gold Top on July 10, 2007 and it finally arrived on June 11, 2008. I had the guitar for a month and it had to go back to PRS on July 14, 2008...today is August 1, 2008 and haven't heard word one about my guitar.

Yeah, I'm losing interest - oh yeah, and it's paid for!

[dwes]

My order wasn't / isn't custom at all, but I'm losing interest in it fast. I ordered my PRS DGT Gold Top on July 10, 2007 and it finally arrived on June 11, 2008. I had the guitar for a month and it had to go back to PRS on July 14, 2008...today is August 1, 2008 and haven't heard word one about my guitar.

Yeah, I'm losing interest - oh yeah, and it's paid for!


That sucks. Can the dealer help you out?

[samdjr74]

I had one custom order that I lost interest in, sort of. I ordered a BC Rich Bich 10 string and my paper work was lost somewhere between the sales rep and the factory so a 12 month wait became a 28 month wait. When the guitar finally arrived it was damaged and yet another 6 months for a replacement. By the time I got the replacement I was fed up with the company but I did enjoy the guitar, unfortently it left a bad taste in my mouth.

I now have 2 custom orders being built and both people are very good with updateas and communcation of the build process. For me this is a key to a long wait. If I can call or email the builder and get a response then I'm a happy camper.

[wstsidela]

It depends. I don't have a problem waiting for my Motor Ave guitars because Mark runs a one man shop.

The idea of waiting 3, 4, or 5 years for a tele or a strat gives me agida.

[cnardone]

Even when the builder keeps in touch, some of us can only wait so long. My guitar was in Bill Chapin's blow up. I completely and totally understand the wait time. But at 31 months and counting I've really lost interest in it. I am not even sure the specs are what I want anymore. But, I am sure it is going to be a GREAT instrument. I am pretty sure I will love it once it gets here. I've got my fingers crossed.

cmn

cmn

[prsflame]

The longest I've ever waited was 14 months. Alot changed in my musical life during those 14 months. I went from playing in a Rock band, to a funk band. I went from playing single and double cutaway guitars, to Strats and Tele's. The two guitars on order were doublecuts. Thank God one of em' was spec'd SSH, or I would not have been able to gig either guitar.

I'm rambling, but I know I could never wait 18+ months. I too, would start to lose interest. I had great experiences going through my custom builds, but I will never do it again. I was thrilled with my guitars, but too much changed in my life playing wise by the time they were completed.

[JPERRYROCKS]

There are some things that are acceptable, and some that become ridiculous.

A 3-6 month "buffer" should be expected from a lot of luthiers. But if 12-18 months turns into 3 years, I think a customer has every right to be upset.

You need to protect yourself. Get something in writing from a builder that gives you an "out" should your order get pushed back to the point of being unacceptable.

You have to give lutheirs some le-way, though. Working with wood and finishes is very fragile. One small slip or mistake on 1 guitar can push everybodys guitar back in the order process.

An average of 18 month - 2 years is not that long of a wait time for a top builder and is about average.

[go7]

When asked about delivery date my builder just said "forget about it". Good advise. It`s finished when it`s done.

[googoobaby]

That's an excellent question. My first custom instrument was ordered for functional reasons, and after a very long delivery period (with no contact) didn't turn out to be that useful to me. Plus the custom experience was negative enough that I was happy to pass it along to the next owner who adores it. The next one was almost fully aesthetic, and not only did the instrument turn out well, the builder really kept me engaged too.

[JeffD]

I know some of you guys must fit this profile. Just curious if/when you lose interest in a custom order due to the wait times? Assume you have paid a deposit.

I am at the 18 month mark now (at the time of order I was quoted 12 months) and the guitar is still many months from completion. At this juncture I am finding that my interest in the instrument has dropped almost to the point of I don't care about it anymore.....

So I was wondering, for those that do lose interest in an order, how long before you lose interest?

Now, before you lecture me on the nature of custom builds, I have been through the process twice with Ron Thorn and once with Joe Driskill, so I am familiar with the ups and downs of the process.

So, how long before you lose interest?

Personally, I'll never do another custom order. Guitars from even the best builders will vary, and I want the chance to compare. That comparison can be over the phone from a dealer I trust. Also, I lack the patience needed for a custom order. Instead, I might take a stock guitar and mod it if possible.

[Jon Silberman]

Personally, I'll never do another custom order. Guitars from even the best builders will vary, and I want the chance to compare. That comparison can be over the phone from a dealer I trust. Also, I lack the patience needed for a custom order. Instead, I might take a stock guitar and mod it if possible.
I must say, being in the midst of my second custom order now, I understand your sentiments, Jeff.

[JPERRYROCKS]

I recently had a disappointing experience with a custom acoustic guitar builder.

He had a really good buzz on the acoustic guitar forum and a lot of hype around him.

Waited 16 months for it and it showed up with the neck not being totally glued down properly to the top and glue rezidue oozing out. Lots of buzzing on the frets, nut slots too deep and buzzing. Looks like the back was cracked and glued back together.

He offered to put a new neck on the guitar and I'm in the process of sending it back. Not sure what's going to happen with it.

I'm $2500 into the project and not sure what I'm going to do with it after that.

[2x6L6]

Personally, I'll never do another custom order. Guitars from even the best builders will vary, and I want the chance to compare. That comparison can be over the phone from a dealer I trust. Also, I lack the patience needed for a custom order. Instead, I might take a stock guitar and mod it if possible.
I think the other side of this coin is that the best builder(s) know their designs and their woodpile well enough that they can consult with you to build exactly what you want, in a way that no mass manufacturer nor dealer with a big stockroom could ever achieve. From what I've seen, the best builders have achieved a degree of consistency that is above and beyond. Variability is, to the maximum extent possible, under their control.

That being said, there is rarely a chance to play and compare a selection of the smallest builders' guitars.

[pfrischmann]

I'm in the same bind.
I was quoted 12 month's and we are now at 16 month's and all I have to show for it is a picture of a glued top. The same one I've been looking at for the last 10 months.

This guy was referred to me by a friend and I was warned that although he was very talented, he was slow.

I'm O.K. with someone being off by 10-20%, barring exceptional circumstances (car accident, death in the family etc..) but when you are off by 100%....that is unaccepptable.

I am very quickly loosing interest.

The problem is, you don't want to rush an artist, and he is just that. BUT, I did put down 20% based on a very innacurate timeline which set false expectations.

What happened to "under promise and over deliver>

[DWB1960]

When asked about delivery date my builder just said "forget about it". Good advise. It`s finished when it`s done.

:confused:

[clarkram]

a minor addendum to my opening: All the discussion of communication has not been lost on me. I sent the builder an e-mail Friday morning asking for an update and as of today I've had no response.

[TNJ]

I'm with you.
Right now I'm waiting for a 100watter D-style amp, and am about 6-7 months along.
I've had an offer to purchase a 50watter, but I just sprang for a Bogner Ecstasy to tide me over (and is it ever!)...so not good timing. Plus I want a 100watter anyway.

So...some guys who are top notch builders with small operations have the inherent problem of a cue outside their door.

A necessary evil sometimes...and it will lose a few of the impatient clientele.

S.
j

[scott]

I just found this thread.
I am the builder that clark is getting pissed with.
I believe he has every right since Ive blown the due date by quite a bit.
Also fretnot is also a customer and he seems pretty pissed as well.

I never took anyones money thinking that I wouldnt meet the due date.
I can understand how some people might think that. At the time I thought it was more than possible to make it. However, There were setbacks a plenty. I had a really bad year last year.
Anyway, Im gonna post some nice pics on the other thread about Heatley Guitars and Ill cronicle some of my setbacks if anyones interested.

My appologies to the people who have waited so long and are starting to get frustrated. My thanks also goes out ot he people that have been so patient and understanding.



Scott Heatley
www.heatleyguitars.com (http://www.heatleyguitars.com)

[paintguy]

Wow!

the first builder I have seen call himself out like this.

Scott, I would love to see the pics and hear about the set-backs.

You just gained some big time respect from me, and I already admired your work.

Takes a lot to come out on a forum like this.

Wow!

[Structo]

I need instant gratification so no, I wouldn't order something like that.

[Shark Diver]

I've been there. I was told a high end guitar from a well known and respected builder was ready to ship. I even had pictures of it from the builder.

8 months later-still no guitar. And I tried to keep the faith, but didn't.

Order cancelled, got another guitar from another builder that really turned me on to his work. So there was a silver lining to my wait.

I've been waiting almost 3 and 1/2 years now for a PRS PS, while others are getting them in 7 months. Sold all my PRS guitars and found another love. So, in a sense it worked out for me with the new guitars as well. But I still wait for that guitar to be finished and then I need to sell it so I can close that chapter of a bad situation. Just a drag. Lost money on all the guitars I sold, especially because I had the audacity to play them. So, it has cost me a lot of $ and stress.

To answer the OP's question, I lost interest after the time quoted was doubled, I did not get progress pics I was promised, and the maker started blowing me off.

[Vince]

"Heres a ? for any body whose qualified to answer. How hard is it to make a F'in screw ?"

...if it's a "magic" screw, it takes a long, long time.

Well I can't say that I've ever made a "magic" screw, but I remember a time when I could screw like magic. Now at my age if I get to screw it is no doubt a work of magic.


Yo Schlarbie.... what up?

[John Hurtt]

"Heres a ? for any body whose qualified to answer. How hard is it to make a F'in screw ?"

...if it's a "magic" screw, it takes a long, long time.

John,

Real life answer...I work in the semiconductor business, and my shop builds custom parts all the time. We have a six week lead time to build intricate, custom sputter shielding from a provided print. We haven't needed to make custom screws for a while, there are machine shops in the Bay Area in NorCal that can turn them out at the highest quality faster and cheaper than we can make them ourselves. If you cannot get any type of custom screw made and delivered in this time frame you need to look elsewhere. Now, if someone is trying to make their own hardware and they don't have the experience and or expertise, that's another issue.

[Down and Out in NYC]

John,

Real life answer...I work in the semiconductor business, and my shop builds custom parts all the time. We have a six week lead time to build intricate, custom sputter shielding from a provided print. We haven't needed to make custom screws for a while, there are machine shops in the Bay Area in NorCal that can turn them out at the highest quality faster and cheaper than we can make them ourselves. If you cannot get any type of custom screw made and delivered in this time frame you need to look elsewhere. Now, if someone is trying to make their own hardware and they don't have the experience and or expertise, that's another issue.


I'm biting my tongue so hard right now :FM

i'm reminded of the words of the immortal, well maybe not immortal, Henry Rollins, but it sure seems fitting. All ya need to do is replace the big ole R on Henry's chest with a :nono

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxrd_jZJxkg

[GDking]

Wow!

the first builder I have seen call himself out like this.

Scott, I would love to see the pics and hear about the set-backs.

You just gained some big time respect from me, and I already admired your work.

Takes a lot to come out on a forum like this.

Wow!


Or, it could be another poor business decision in the same vein that created the delay. I think the guy is honest, but it does not make me want to order a guitar from him.

Buying into the whole "boutique" thing for the last few years, I have found that most can be entered into three camps.

1) The super friendly great guy who just is way too optimistic and you end up waiting 2-3x as long and he even somehow makes you feel bad for him.

2) The guy who acts like it is some favor for him to take your money and treats you like crap up front (but I guess at least is honest)

3) The guy who treats you nicely up front and answers promptly and then never writes or responds to you again until you cancel the charge and then you get a pissy email about his "email being broken" when he runs a web based business (worst of the bunch)

At the end of the day if you want a new guitar made exactly how you want, my recommendation is to get a more "factory" type bolt on guitar like Anderson or Suhr built how you like that will get to you before you wither away and die. Go plug it into your favorite amp and make some music. I am done with the wait times.

[TED STEVENSON]

Or, it could be another poor business decision in the same vein that created the delay. I think the guy is honest, but it does not make me want to order a guitar from him.

Buying into the whole "boutique" thing for the last few years, I have found that most can be entered into three camps.

1) The super friendly great guy who just is way too optimistic and you end up waiting 2-3x as long and he even somehow makes you feel bad for him.

2) The guy who acts like it is some favor for him to take your money and treats you like crap up front (but I guess at least is honest)

3) The guy who treats you nicely up front and answers promptly and then never writes or responds to you again until you cancel the charge and then you get a pissy email about his "email being broken" when he runs a web based business (worst of the bunch)

At the end of the day if you want a new guitar made exactly how you want, my recommendation is to get a more "factory" type bolt on guitar like Anderson or Suhr built how you like that will get to you before you wither away and die. Go plug it into your favorite amp and make some music. I am done with the wait times.

There are also those builders who answer emails and calls promptly and may have some slight delays but always keep the customer in the loop. I'm not talking months or years of delays, only a few weeks. 99% of my customers are a pleasure to work with and I do my best to get the guitar in their hands in a timely manner.

[n.j.]

Or, to be a little less pessimistic, I'll share my custom experiences:

4) The guy who is professional, communicative and honest, and meets the very reasonable promised deadline while delivering an instrument that exceeds all expectations. (Jack Briggs)

5) The enormous megalithic company who accepts your custom order and then vanishes into the ether, no communicado, only to deliver the guitar just as promised and right on time, six months later. (Fender CS)

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences, but mine have been nothing but positive.

...Buying into the whole "boutique" thing for the last few years, I have found that most can be entered into three camps.

1) The super friendly great guy who just is way too optimistic and you end up waiting 2-3x as long and he even somehow makes you feel bad for him.

2) The guy who acts like it is some favor for him to take your money and treats you like crap up front (but I guess at least is honest)

3) The guy who treats you nicely up front and answers promptly and then never writes or responds to you again until you cancel the charge and then you get a pissy email about his "email being broken" when he runs a web based business (worst of the bunch)...

[HeyMrTeleMan]

Four years ago I got in my head that I wanted a world class acoustic. I don't know why. I not a very good acoustic player, but it was in my head nontheless. I contacted a builder whose work I've admired for decades. I was told that her waiting list was closed, but there was a waiting list for her waiting list. There was no charge for the preliminary list, so I put my name on it. Two weeks ago, I got an email telling me that my name had come up to go on the main waiting list. So that's four years just to get on the list. I politely told her that my priorities had changed over that time (or at the very least, I had become more realistic about my acoustic abilities) and that she should give my spot to someone else. Realistically, I figure that my own patience threshold is probably in the 6 to 9 month range.

When I'm collecting custom knives (one of my other obsessions), I usually consider an order to be a "Position in Line" for the knife I want at the time. Most of the really big makers are years behind, so a wait can find you with your tastes changing over that time. I often lose interest after a while (a year) or so, unless it from the most desirable makers. (Just got word that a pair of Wharncliffe Swaybacks I ordered in May of 2005 are almost done!)

If for some reason my tastes change in that time, I just have the maker make a different style, if it's in his or her repertoire. If not, my idea is to sell my position in line. :)

Guitar Futures? It could happen...

HMTM

[John Hurtt]

I'm biting my tongue so hard right now :FM

i'm reminded of the words of the immortal, well maybe not immortal, Henry Rollins, but it sure seems fitting. All ya need to do is replace the big ole R on Henry's chest with a :nono

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxrd_jZJxkg

You might want to either express what you want to say, or just sit it out. :jo

[PRSOPHILE]

The biggest problem with custom builds is the customer(s). They pay their deposits, get in the cue, give the build specs and then the builder gives them a "ballpark date" which usually the customer writes in stone.

Several months (if not weeks) go by and the customer has a brilliant idea! "Can we change around this and replace it with that?" or "I just scored some incredibly rare Ubangee Stomp Wood that would be killer for the fretboard..........can we swap it out or is it too far along?" or "My tastes have changed a little.............." You see where I'm coming from?

Of course the builder(s) will have their issues too (injury, outsourcing, family priorities, availability of parts, etc). But that's primarily uncontrollable by the builder and shouldn't be held against them.

The biggest delays for delivery is the customer and their fickle mindedness. If the builder can't support the change, or has to charge the customer for a change that will "undo" work that has already been done in the customers name and the work can't be salvaged, the customer is either hit with an upcharge or the builder eats the cost overrun. To be fair the customer should be charged for the additional time/material/labor but if this happens, the customer starts to get a negative taste in their mouths and it's their own fault............which makes it taste even more like ka-ka!

My solution: Order it. Place the required deposit. Spec it out. Forgetaboutit! Lay away the cash to pay for it while the luthier is doing their thing. Be pleasantly surprised when it arrives or is ready for stringing up. If you're not pleasantly surprised, maybe the design specs left out some important points and preferences. Communication is key and a trusting relationship even better. Afterall, if it's spec'd out so you are the only guitarist on planet earth that'll want it that way, and you finally decide you don't want it, the builder gets stuck with quite possibly some primo ingredients that can't be used for anything else except for a salvaged piece (maybe).

If build times are important to you, moreso than the actual guitar, then don't even consider custom. Buy prod-line. They're ON THE RACKS! But if you're wanting something a little special or a lotta-bit special, the wait is usually worth it. :AOK

[dwes]

John,

Real life answer...I work in the semiconductor business, and my shop builds custom parts all the time. We have a six week lead time to build intricate, custom sputter shielding from a provided print. We haven't needed to make custom screws for a while, there are machine shops in the Bay Area in NorCal that can turn them out at the highest quality faster and cheaper than we can make them ourselves. If you cannot get any type of custom screw made and delivered in this time frame you need to look elsewhere. Now, if someone is trying to make their own hardware and they don't have the experience and or expertise, that's another issue.

:agree

I "loaned" my place in line for an electric guitar that was to be delivered in under 18 months. After 4 1/2 years, "losing interest" would've been an euphemism.

If a builder needs "magic screws," carbon fiber this, brass trem block that, titanium bridges, ... and has constant production issues, why not outsource? Or at least be honest with yourself and customer about your own capabilities?

That stated, I have since ordered a beautiful Soloway (Thanks Jim) a Ribbecke Halfling (coming by week's end) and a Collings acoustic. So, I was not put off to new builders. Just doing a little more homework. For me, TGP has been a wonderful source of previously hidden, super-talented luthiers. And I hope to try them all!!! At the same time, with the no bad experience posting rule, you need to read between the lines to avoid stepping in a pile of b.s.

To Scott Heatley: It took guts to post what you did. I respect the heck out of you for doing so! Plus, it seems you put out stellar work regularly.

Dave

[clarkram]

The biggest problem with custom builds is the customer(s). They pay their deposits, get in the cue, give the build specs and then the builder gives them a "ballpark date" which usually the customer writes in stone.

Several months (if not weeks) go by and the customer has a brilliant idea! "Can we change around this and replace it with that?" or "I just scored some incredibly rare Ubangee Stomp Wood that would be killer for the fretboard..........can we swap it out or is it too far along?" or "My tastes have changed a little.............." You see where I'm coming from?

Of course the builder(s) will have their issues too (injury, outsourcing, family priorities, availability of parts, etc). But that's primarily uncontrollable by the builder and shouldn't be held against them.

The biggest delays for delivery is the customer and their fickle mindedness. If the builder can't support the change, or has to charge the customer for a change that will "undo" work that has already been done in the customers name and the work can't be salvaged, the customer is either hit with an upcharge or the builder eats the cost overrun. To be fair the customer should be charged for the additional time/material/labor but if this happens, the customer starts to get a negative taste in their mouths and it's their own fault............which makes it taste even more like ka-ka!

My solution: Order it. Place the required deposit. Spec it out. Forgetaboutit! Lay away the cash to pay for it while the luthier is doing their thing. Be pleasantly surprised when it arrives or is ready for stringing up. If you're not pleasantly surprised, maybe the design specs left out some important points and preferences. Communication is key and a trusting relationship even better. Afterall, if it's spec'd out so you are the only guitarist on planet earth that'll want it that way, and you finally decide you don't want it, the builder gets stuck with quite possibly some primo ingredients that can't be used for anything else except for a salvaged piece (maybe).

If build times are important to you, moreso than the actual guitar, then don't even consider custom. Buy prod-line. They're ON THE RACKS! But if you're wanting something a little special or a lotta-bit special, the wait is usually worth it. :AOK


This idea that its the customer's fault has not been my experience. Sure there are a few guys who think more about inlays than tone and change specs, but most guys I know that go custom (including me) place an order and leave it at that.

Builders should be up front on wait times, period. My builder called me last night (Scott Heatley) to discuss/apologize for delays, good to hear from him. BTW Scott, I never intended to dump on you here, but thanks for jumping in.

At this point I figure I'm in it for the long haul, I've invested 18 months, may as well wait it out.

[shallbe]

I've been very fortunate. I play through a custom amp, which was a new design, and delivered on time. I have three custom guitars, all delivered on time.

[GDking]

There are also those builders who answer emails and calls promptly and may have some slight delays but always keep the customer in the loop. I'm not talking months or years of delays, only a few weeks. 99% of my customers are a pleasure to work with and I do my best to get the guitar in their hands in a timely manner.


I would not even consider a few weeks of delay a problem you are light years ahead of the builders I had problems with.

From my personal experience and people whom I have talked with you are a rare breed. Kudos.

[GDking]

Or, to be a little less pessimistic, I'll share my custom experiences:

4) The guy who is professional, communicative and honest, and meets the very reasonable promised deadline while delivering an instrument that exceeds all expectations. (Jack Briggs)

5) The enormous megalithic company who accepts your custom order and then vanishes into the ether, no communicado, only to deliver the guitar just as promised and right on time, six months later. (Fender CS)

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences, but mine have been nothing but positive.

I am glad you have had positive ones for sure. It is good to know there are people out there in the music world that know how to run a business consistently.

It is easy to get pessimistic when in the dark world of 2 cancelled custom guitars that have gone three to five times over the projected build time, and pedals that I am still waiting for after years that are promised in x weeks, that there is a light out there.

[paintguy]

The biggest problem with custom builds is the customer(s). They pay their deposits, get in the cue, give the build specs and then the builder gives them a "ballpark date" which usually the customer writes in stone.

Several months (if not weeks) go by and the customer has a brilliant idea! "Can we change around this and replace it with that?" or "I just scored some incredibly rare Ubangee Stomp Wood that would be killer for the fretboard..........can we swap it out or is it too far along?" or "My tastes have changed a little.............." You see where I'm coming from?

Of course the builder(s) will have their issues too (injury, outsourcing, family priorities, availability of parts, etc). But that's primarily uncontrollable by the builder and shouldn't be held against them.

The biggest delays for delivery is the customer and their fickle mindedness. If the builder can't support the change, or has to charge the customer for a change that will "undo" work that has already been done in the customers name and the work can't be salvaged, the customer is either hit with an upcharge or the builder eats the cost overrun. To be fair the customer should be charged for the additional time/material/labor but if this happens, the customer starts to get a negative taste in their mouths and it's their own fault............which makes it taste even more like ka-ka!

My solution: Order it. Place the required deposit. Spec it out. Forgetaboutit! Lay away the cash to pay for it while the luthier is doing their thing. Be pleasantly surprised when it arrives or is ready for stringing up. If you're not pleasantly surprised, maybe the design specs left out some important points and preferences. Communication is key and a trusting relationship even better. Afterall, if it's spec'd out so you are the only guitarist on planet earth that'll want it that way, and you finally decide you don't want it, the builder gets stuck with quite possibly some primo ingredients that can't be used for anything else except for a salvaged piece (maybe).

If build times are important to you, moreso than the actual guitar, then don't even consider custom. Buy prod-line. They're ON THE RACKS! But if you're wanting something a little special or a lotta-bit special, the wait is usually worth it. :AOK

Sorry, not buying into that.

In researching Custom builders, I have spoken with a bunch of people who have or had custom guitars on order and didn't make one spec change. Yet, still they have waited or been waiting way past the projected due date. In some cases they are waiting in the 3 year area for a Custom guitar that had a eta of 12 months.

Is that the customers fault? Also, spec changes can only happen if the guitar hasn't reached a progress point of no turning back. This is usually not the case.

To even hint that the builders delays are not their fault is crazy. Some yes, some no. Part of running a business is projecting time frames. I guess some people are good at it and others not.

Believe it or not their are some builders who are pretty much on time, deliver a fantastic product, communicate well with their clients, and don't feel that the customer is so darn lucky and blessed just to have (insert name here) build them a guitar.

Like someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, if I ran my business like some builders, I would be out of business.:(

Btw, how do you know it's usually the customers fault? Are you a builder who has experienced all of this?

I have had 5 Custom builds and can tell you that you don't have to wait a unreasonable amount of time to get a killer, custom made guitar made to your own specs. You do have to pick the right builder though....

One last thing. I will say that if you can hang with the delays and extended times frames, you probably will be rewarded with a fine instrument.:AOK

[big mike]

Here's my 2 cents with my experiences and thoughts

Point 1: Be VERY clear with what you want, and what your expectations are. If you need it to hit a specific time, be upfront and tell the builder this from the beginning.

Point 2: Know what you expect and want from the guitar, and let the builder guide you to hit the tonal goal. Many issues arise (i'm not saying all) by having unrealistic expectations, or thinking that you can get a 'les paul sound' out of a 3lb ash bolt on doublecut with a floyd rose and a dicumbobulator valve.

My case has been great. I had zero issues, and have had very minimal changes. It's my #1 guitar, and almost the only guitar I've gigged in the last 2 years. I couldn't replace that with anything. Ever. Did it go over time estimate? Yup. Not an issue to me, of course I'm also the guy that always says 'when it's done it's done'.

Another thing I'll add...shit rolls down hill. And when it does, it picks up speed and becomes a bigger and bigger ball. When a run of bad luck hits, it hits. No doubting that. Stuff always multiplies. If one or two guitars just became a royal pain in the ass, and took way longer than they should've, then it will snowball. But also remember, an estimate is just that, an ESTIMATE. (revisit point 1 here).

For me, now I have one more on order with my favorite builder, and am contemplating a guitar from a different builder (completely different style of guitar) when $$ presents itself. See my other point about 'when it's done it's done'.

I also find I like having a guitar on order, almost as much as I do having it. I like looking forward to things.

This isn't a guitar center thing. there are some builders that have issues, and sometimes fall down and miss dates. Sometimes that snowballs. Shit happens. None of these guys are getting rich, they're trying to do the best they can and survive. Do some folks handle it wrong? Sure. Are there guys that get it right? Sure. But I also think (on both sides) sometimes people get way too emotionally wrapped up in the process.

IMO, YMMV, etc etc.

[PRSOPHILE]

Sorry, not buying into that.

No problemmo!

In researching Custom builders, I have spoken with a bunch of people who have or had custom guitars on order and didn't make one spec change. Yet, still they have waited or been waiting way past the projected due date. In some cases they are waiting in the 3 year area for a Custom guitar that had a eta of 12 months.

That's where communication should have existed so there is understanding and acceptance. No, that's not the customers fault.

Is that the customers fault? Also, spec changes can only happen if the guitar hasn't reached a progress point of no turning back. This is usually not the case.

But yet, it does happen. Like horror stories, they stand out and last a lifetime or better!

To even hint that the builders delays are not their fault is crazy. Some yes, some no. Part of running a business is projecting time frames. I guess some people are good at it and others not.

There are no-fault situations where it isn't the customers nor is it the builders. If you can't acknowledge that, then I totally see where you're coming from.

Believe it or not their are some builders who are pretty much on time, deliver a fantastic product, communicate well with their clients, and don't feel that the customer is so darn lucky and blessed just to have (insert name here) build them a guitar.

Can't agree more!

Like someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, if I ran my business like some builders, I would be out of business.:(

Btw, how do you know it's usually the customers fault? Are you a builder who has experienced all of this?

No, I'm no builder but have had the experience of several custom builds. Different companies. I have had experiences through good friends regarding their builds. It's a combined knowledge base along with discussions with current, previous, and potential builders for sure.


I have had 5 Custom builds and can tell you that you don't have to wait a unreasonable amount of time to get a killer, custom made guitar made to your own specs. You do have to pick the right builder though....

One last thing. I will say that if you can hang with the delays and extended times frames, you probably will be rewarded with a fine instrument.:AOK

Yupp'r! :BEER

[Tommy Tourbus]

The biggest factor for me has been when something else desireable has come along that fills the niche that my custom order is intended to fill and is available NOW. That's when I start tossing around the idea of 'how can i get out of this damn custom order'

[Down and Out in NYC]

You might want to either express what you want to say, or just sit it out. :jo


Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. That was a real no class post. I'm ussually not such a douchebag. Back to sitting it out and hopefully one day recieving the guitar to end all guitars.

My apologies to all.

[Shark Diver]

I've been very fortunate. I play through a custom amp, which was a new design, and delivered on time. I have three custom guitars, all delivered on time.

Reminded me of the amp I ordered a few years back that I put 1/2 down on. I had serial #2 promised to me, eta 4 months. Still isn't done, if it ever will be. Ashame I really wanted that amp. :(

Really hard when your gigging and something is promised to you in 8 months and 3 years later it isn't done. I know for me I am then forced to make other arrangements. I may have passed on something else waiting for the order. Or be forced to get something I don't really want to tide me over and then take a loss on resale. "It's done when it's done" is ok for some, but not all.

I have a '58 'vette being restored and I was told up front that it is "done when it's done". I have never thought once about how long it is taking, because I was told up front what to expect. :AOK

A builder expects me to pay in a timely manner, it's not unreasonable for me to expect the work in a timely manner.

[dwes]

[quote=big mike;4537779]
I also find I like having a guitar on order, almost as much as I do having it. I like looking forward to things. quote]


Can I get am AMEN, Brother??!!! I am 100% with you on this.:drink The anticipation and excitement of any build (custom or not) is a great fun.

Dave

[John Hurtt]

This idea that its the customer's fault has not been my experience. Sure there are a few guys who think more about inlays than tone and change specs, but most guys I know that go custom (including me) place an order and leave it at that.

Builders should be up front on wait times, period. My builder called me last night (Scott Heatley) to discuss/apologize for delays, good to hear from him. BTW Scott, I never intended to dump on you here, but thanks for jumping in.

At this point I figure I'm in it for the long haul, I've invested 18 months, may as well wait it out.

I won't pretend to have some insider knowledge going on, but most of the guys I know that have placed custom orders have changed their specs somehow during the build. There are a couple guys who spec'd and left it, but they've been the exception to what I've witnessed. Keep in mind this sample size is probably less than 15-20 people, though.

[dwes]

I know the issue of changing specs has come up here a few times.

Wonder though... if a guitar hasn't been started or is simply a glued top/back and neck blank, how much will changing specs impact the delivery time?

If you want different pickups, fretwire, wiring, stain, whatever... How much time can that add, if any? We're not talking about suddenly deciding you want an archtop as opposted to a solid body. So, changing details common to a builder's basic design, IMO, shouldn't be grounds for notable timetable variations.

I can see a change in scale length, tone wood specifics, routing/chambering making a difference. But major changes should come with an expectation of time extension and PRICE increase; particularly if the guitar is under construction.

Dave

[imissmj]

I may be wrong, but I think some are misconstruing "It's the customer's fault" as meaning it's each customers fault that his or her guitar is delayed. The point that is being made is that because builders have to spend so much time dealing with "rewrites" and changes it delays the building process. To that I'd have to say they should hire someone to handle that work. I'm sure there are tons of bright kids that would love to work in a guitar shop. If they have a dealer network, that's what the dealer is for right?

I have no problem with delays. What I have a huge problem with is lack of communication and poor customer service. I think most are like me in this regard. It's the ducking communication, vague replies, and unmentioned passing deadlines that cause more irritation than the actual delays. At the end of the day it's a business, and I just think artisans often aren't very good at it.

[Boggs]

I have kept delivery times to 6-9 months. Granted, I have fewer to build than most guys, but some of it is in designing the body as well for the longer times. I do have some bodies partially built up of all 3 models which would decrease the build times for the "gotta have one soon" crowd. I work a paycheck-to-paycheck full-time job on top of this so I do require enough up front to cover the cost of materials. Once they are ordered, they belong to you so if you cancel after that, I cannot afford to be out the cost of materials, so they would be shipped to you. Seems only fair.

I feel the most important part of the build process is keeping the customer informed of progress. I am a stickler for this. It keeps customer interest and enthusiasm up and also helps to insure to me that I am doing things the way the customer wants.

Boggs

[imissmj]

I also forgot to mention that one way of preventing a lot of headaches with custom builds is managing your own expectations. What I mean by that is ask every single question you can imagine up front including questions about the schedule and when you'll be contacted etc, so that way there is never any gray area about where you are in the process. I've had mixed results with this, but it tends to keep people honest when there is no ambiguity about what is expected.

[gregc]

I ordered a custom guitar and the initial wait time quote was 9 months. It turned out to be just about 2 years. The builder was cool though, and always replied to e-mail, answered the phone, and sent me pics along the process. I surprised myself with my even temperment and patience. Good communication does go a long way. That being said, I don't think I'd ever want to wait on anything more than 1 year. It's just too difficult to see that far into the future, all things concidered. I was going to order a custom accoustic, but when I heard my preferred builder's wait time was 3-4 years.... I just couldn't imagine....... I found one of his pieces on the used market and went in that direction.

[Jahn]

Just played a gorgeous custom acoustic made by Lynn Dudenbostel. Asked the owner when he ordered it. He said "1998." I was like "oh that's great, it sure plays nice and old!" He said, "well, I just got it last month." oooooooh. But the Dude sure does great work!

[lv]

Maybe arbitrarily add a few months on to the date you estimate?

I have to echo what John Page has stated. I never try to lead a customer on or knowingly misstate a build time. It always seems to take more time than I estimate. Maybe one of these days I'll get the estimate closer to correct!

Thanks to all that have open orders with me for their patience as I work to get their instrument finished. I would rather have mud slung at me for being off on the built time quote than to have someone unhappy with their instrument because of corners being cut to expedite an order- I just can't live with that.

[Amplite]

I ordered a custom guitar and the initial wait time quote was 9 months. It turned out to be just about 2 years. The builder was cool though, and always replied to e-mail, answered the phone, and sent me pics along the process. I surprised myself with my even temperment and patience. Good communication does go a long way. That being said, I don't think I'd ever want to wait on anything more than 1 year. It's just too difficult to see that far into the future, all things concidered. I was going to order a custom accoustic, but when I heard my preferred builder's wait time was 3-4 years.... I just couldn't imagine....... I found one of his pieces on the used market and went in that direction.

Two years from now I might be a Bass player!!!:crazyguy

[Boggs]

I designed, prototyped, built, and delivered that purpleheart bass in 9 months... :p

[CTstrat]

Over the years, and after many, many custom orders, some of which took almost TWO years, I've learned something important about myself. When the time stretches out and a sense of "losing interest" occurs, all I have to do is trust my original instincts. I yearned for that guitar because it awoke something in me, something that the particular builder's instruments spoke to. Lucky am I to have the luxury of owning this thing of great beauty that the builder has devoted himself to creating. So I slow down and anticipate its arrival with excitement. This period of thinking and dreaming about what it will be like when that box finally arrives and I open the case (custom fitted of course) - and see it in its glory - is more than half the fun. Deferred gratification is one of the most satisfying forms of self discipline - one that really pays off in spades! Hang in there - you'll be so glad you did when you get your Stradivarius.

[bbocaner]

Sad. What was the expected delivery time?

:(

He told me "ought to have that done by christmas" ...

There's a guy who's been waiting longer than I have though, and he's fully paid (!!)