When did amp manufacturers start emphasizing distortion?

[SeaFoamGreen]

A history question. AFAIK, Leo Fender was mostly a Country music fan, and as his amps progressed through the Tweed, Brownface, and Blackface eras, the emphasis was mainly on being cleaner and "HiFi". When Dick Dale came into the mix, the emphasis changed slightly into being LOUDER but still clean.

Likewise, across the pond, Jim Marshall was taking Fender designs and making them bigger and louder. A separate head for an enclosed cabinet with an unprecedented 4x12 arrangement. And like Leo had Dick Dale, Jim had Pete Townsend encouraging him to make it LOUDER. Along comes Jimi and the JTM45 becomes 100 watts. Marshall eventually did a 200watt amp too.

Fender was making the 180w (but clean) Super Twin in the 70's. Even the Ampeg V4's of the 70's were LOUD but still relatively clean.


So when did amp manufacturers wake up and realize that it was the distortion and not neccessarily an endless chase to be louder that guitarists were seeking?

I'm thinking of 2 events:

1. The introduction of Master Volumes: this was an acknowledgement that players wanted preamp OD while being able to trim overall volume. (when were MV's first introduced?)

2. Mesa/Boogie: this was essentially the first boutique amp maker, modding Fender Princeton's into using cascading stages and a relatively tiny amp compared to the big, visually-impressive arena stacks.


What else? Any other comments?

[rob2001]

It's like the designers slowly caught up to the trends that happened. Jimi and Pete were big as far as distortion being a sought after thing for sure.

But there were many from that era that were running fuzz boxes and treble boosters in front to get higher distortion levels so i'm sure the makers were trying to give players what they wanted.

An example of Marshall following demand was with the JCM 800's. Many players were putting tube screamers in front of thier JMP MV's and modding them so they designed an 800 with essentially a dirt box built in, reverb and an FX loop. (the 2205/2210 models)

Now the makers know there is a market for great sounding amps at livingroom volumes so your seeing lots of small watt amps with great master volumes and power scaling.

[SgtThump]

It seems to me like the first time "distortion" was acknowledged by an amp maker was when Marshall released the first master volume amp. I was a wee lad back then, so I'm not saying that from personal experience. Just from what I've read.

[SeaFoamGreen]

Jimi and Pete were big as far as distortion being a sought after thing for sure.

Well, Jimi and Pete did indeed have a lot of distortion in their playing, but that seemed more of a by-product of their primary desire to be as loud as possible. They obviously were trying to get Marshall to make their amps LOUDER, but did they ever specifically ask for the amps to be made so that they would distort more?

Also, was the AC30 top-boost more of an attempt to give players more volume or distortion?

What year was the first Marshall MV? What year was the first Mesa/Boogie?

[Whoopysnorp]

The Mark I Boogie came out in 1972, and it definitely had a dedicated mode for distortion.

[SgtThump]

I believe the first MV Marshall was something like 1975. I've heard it touted as the first MV amp ever?

[wildschwein]

Fender made the Super Twin in the mid 70s which had a distortion knob on the face panel along with a pile of knobs that corresponded with various frequencies - basically an eq but split into knobs rather than sliders. But early Boogies seem to be the first to produce lots of deliberate front end gain. This includes the ultra-early early ones which were rebuilt Fender Princetons - these were apparently heavily "hot-rodded" Fenders.

[SgtThump]

Fender made the Super Twin in the mid 70s which had a distortion knob on the face panel along with a pile of knobs that corresponded with various frequencies - basically an eq but split into knobs rather than sliders. But early Boogies seem to be the first to produce lots of deliberate front end gain. This includes the ultra-early early ones which were rebuilt Fender Princetons - these were apparently heavily "hot-rodded" Fenders.

Maybe the "Marshall introduced the first MV amp in 1975" comment I've seen before is more about it being the first mass produced MV amp? Could be. I dunno...

[angelo]

Mesa Mark I. I am not old enough to have been a player at that time, but from what I read, it's a no doubter.

Cascading gain, MV - the amp was BUILT around disto.

[Groovey Records]

A history question. AFAIK, Leo Fender was mostly a Country music fan, and as his amps progressed through the Tweed, Brownface, and Blackface eras, the emphasis was mainly on being cleaner and "HiFi". When Dick Dale came into the mix, the emphasis changed slightly into being LOUDER but still clean.

Likewise, across the pond, Jim Marshall was taking Fender designs and making them bigger and louder. A separate head for an enclosed cabinet with an unprecedented 4x12 arrangement. And like Leo had Dick Dale, Jim had Pete Townsend encouraging him to make it LOUDER. Along comes Jimi and the JTM45 becomes 100 watts. Marshall eventually did a 200watt amp too.

Fender was making the 180w (but clean) Super Twin in the 70's. Even the Ampeg V4's of the 70's were LOUD but still relatively clean.


So when did amp manufacturers wake up and realize that it was the distortion and not neccessarily an endless chase to be louder that guitarists were seeking?

I'm thinking of 2 events:

1. The introduction of Master Volumes: this was an acknowledgement that players wanted preamp OD while being able to trim overall volume. (when were MV's first introduced?)

2. Mesa/Boogie: this was essentially the first boutique amp maker, modding Fender Princeton's into using cascading stages and a relatively tiny amp compared to the big, visually-impressive arena stacks.


What else? Any other comments?

IIR Jim went with the 8x12 first for Entwistle first then Pete got his. The Roadies where not having it so they were broken into two 4 x 12's

I may be wrong but I believe the Master Volume on Marshalls's was a Market reaction to the Mesa's

EnJoY ThE MuSiC
GrooVey RecOrds

[ripoffriffs]

Before master volume knobs became common, many players already were seeking the distortion sound at less than arena decibels. So they also turned to DiMarzio Super Humbucking pickups. These overwound, high output pickups were all the rage in the 70's. Highly mentioned in those old Guitar player mags of the 70's.

[Echo Are]

To answer the OP's question, it's hard to say. I'd say it wasn't until the mid-1970s when the major manufacturers really began to acknowledge the fact that players wanted overdriven and distorted tones out of their amps.

[blackba]

I think as the PA's got much better in the 70's and guitar effects pedals started to become popular the tide slowly started to shift away from being as loud and clean as possible.

[Roccaforte Amps]

The Sound City BMF had an OD circuit and master.
Good sounding too.

[Peppy]

Around 1970 or so. I think Garnet had the Stinger circuit put in their amps around then for just one example. As best as I can remember from playing in bands back then.

[SeaFoamGreen]

IIR Jim went with the 8x12 first for Entwistle first then Pete got his. The Roadies where not having it so they were broken into two 4 x 12's

Yes, I've read the stories about the 8x12 refrigerator cabinets. Here's a wikipedia page on the Who's influence on equipment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Who%27s_influence_on_musical_equipment

Everything seems to indicate they were more interested in VOLUME rather than distortion.

But they eventually switched to SoundCity/HiWatt. What's that company's story? Were they also totally about volume, or did they do anything to add distortion? Someone mentions a BMF above - what was that all about?

[openbar]

Hiwatt had a MV in the late 60's, but that wasn't really about gain either.

And I believe the Fender Twin Reverb had a master before any Marshall did, around '73 or so?

[Echo Are]

Prior to the mid-'70s there also amps from companies like Kustom, Acoustic Control Corp., and SG System that had what amounted to built-in fuzztones, which were not about gain either, I don't think, but rather were regarded as an added effect, like tremolo or reverb.

[SeaFoamGreen]

And I believe the Fender Twin Reverb had a master before any Marshall did, around '73 or so? http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4528063)


Yea, I think the Fender Twin MV predates Marshall. Does anyone know if the intention for Fender to have a MV was for for dist at lower vol... or for situations where you plugged one type of instrument into one channel, and another into the other channel, and the Master was to bring the overall level up or down (like a mixer)???

what amounted to built-in fuzztones, which were not about gain either, I don't think, but rather were regarded as an added effect, like tremolo or reverb.

Yep, I had a "fuzzbox" back in the day, and it was just an effect that was used occasionally, like echo or phaser.


So far it doesn't seem like there was anyone before Mesa (1972) who were manufacturing amps with specific gain/distortion features. Not even Marshall or Hiwatt, let alone Fender.

[BluesForDan]

I get a chuckle out of the old Morris Rose ads for Marshall amps "The most powerful, distortion-free amplifiers in the world".

[Groovey Records]

Pete says alot of things but he has been quoted as saying he doesn't like Marshall tones Most recently playing a double stacked Vibro-King with his Fender. It fills his needs for a "Quiter Amp"

[Roe]

marshall did some things that increased gain:
the introduction of the .68uf bypass cap on v2's cathode on the lead amps in 1968 and the decreasing of negative feedback - esp the 100k on 4ohm output as found on the 1973 amps

[Lou Brush]

Distortion-based amps started showing up in the early to mid-70's with the Mesa Mark I and the Marshall 2203/4.

[openbar]

Didn't the Musicman amps come along about 1974? That would predate Marshall too.

[Ulysses]

I believe the first MV Marshall was something like 1975. I've heard it touted as the first MV amp ever?

I know the Fender silverface Quad and Super Six Reverb amps had MV's in 1972 for sure.

[smolder]

Arena, outdoor festivals and stadiums were largely driving the volume thing. In my corner of the world, a louder amp was one part macho and one part aspiration (to 'make' it). At the time I had no idea I was fighting each amp upgrade to get good tone... plus the pedals seemed cool back in the early days of the radio shack home made synth stuff.

[SeaFoamGreen]

"The most powerful, distortion-free amplifiers in the world".

Oh that's funny, in an ironic sorta way! :)



In my corner of the world, a louder amp was one part macho and one part aspiration (to 'make' it).

Good point - I traded in my 50w Bassman for a 100w Twin for essentially that reason, when in retrospect the Bassman was plenty loud enough and had the better overdrive sound!



I know the Fender silverface Quad and Super Six Reverb amps had MV's in 1972 for sure.

But was this an acknowledgment of giving players a way to have OD at lower vols... or was it just another feature to allow multiple instruments to be used in the same amp and "mixed" ??



And again, anyone know if the AC30 top boost was intended for providing distortion, or just extra volume and treble?

[Old Fuzzface]

I wasn't there but the AC30 was definitely built for more volume. See the VOX History on their web-site.

[SeaFoamGreen]

OK found this:

http://marshall.redpt.com/clay/mv_marshall_circuits.html


Master Lead Marshall Circuits - MV Models 2203,2204,...

This describes the circuitry of master volume Marshalls. It shows most of the major components and describes the circuits used in the 2203 (100w) and 2204 (50w) models. Starting in 1975, Marshall decided to create new master volume models to add more gain to their product lines in response for more demand for hard rock and metal type tones.
Similarities to non-MV Models 1987,1959

The 2203/2204 MV models are very similar to the 1987/1959 non-MV models. They share the same type and number of tubes. The main difference is where the non-MV models have 4-inputs and two separate channels. The MV models only have 1 channel with high and low sensitivity inputs. Basically, they took the 2nd channel from the non-MV model and added it as an extra gain stage. There is a mod to the older non-MV amps, called the One-wire Mod (http://www.lynx.bc.ca/%7Ejc/marshallAmps.html), that cascades the two input channels, similar to the Master Lead amps.




Ok, so the JCM800's came out in 1975, and they were wired with the channels cascaded for gain.






Did the early MV Fender's (early 70's) also do the cascade/gain thing? Or was the MV on those meant mainly for mixing purposes?

[SgtThump]

...Ok, so the JCM800's came out in 1975, and they were wired with the channels cascaded for gain...

Not trying to be a Marshall nazi, but they were called JMP Mark II Master Lead models 2203 and 2204 back then. They changed the cosmetics and name in 1981 to be JCM800 models 2203 and 2204.

Many say it's the exact same circuit with different cosmetics. Others say the circuit was tweaked when it changed to the JCM800. I think they're the same amp myself.

PS - Looks like I'm confused about Marshall being the first to introduce a master volume amp. I thought I read that somewhere, but I must've been strung out on meth at the time. lol... Joking.

[JerryP]

Vox was making amps with distortion in the 60's.
Jerry

[Gumby]

It's funny how things develop and evolve, but I wasn't alive back then and some here where. So....IMO I believe the following to be true:

Based on recorded history, tripped out tunes from late 59 (rare and cultish) and into the 60's (pop psyc.) included distortion in their sound. I believe that this "new" trend in music coincided with the birth of the drug culture.

When amp makers began to adapt to a consumer need for distortion, the trend for distorted guitar sounds in popular music was already 10-15 years in the making. This lag is attributed to a few things-- like making sure this new sound is not a passing fad, perhaps a little resistance to the counter culture that this "new" kind of music represented and then finally the time needed for design and development.

[SgtThump]

Good info here (if it's all true):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_distortion#History

Chris

[Gumby]

Good info here (if it's all true):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_distortion#History

Chris


That was a good read. Thanks for posting

[Peppy]

I know the Fender silverface Quad and Super Six Reverb amps had MV's in 1972 for sure.

But was this an acknowledgment of giving players a way to have OD at lower vols... or was it just another feature to allow multiple instruments to be used in the same amp and "mixed" ??




It was for easier overdrive. Boogie had been doing it for a few years by that date.

[jay42]

Dumble was in Santa Cruz quietly doing his ODS thing some time before Randall Smith created the Mk I prototype for Barry Melton. If you're talking amp distortion, the techs were ahead of the manufacturers...until one became a manufactuer.

If you're talking distortion, then yeah, fuzz boxes were showing up here and there by the end of 1965, and some circuits ended up in Vox amps...not sure when.

[Bmused]

I'm pretty sure Pete Townshend's modified late 60's Hiwatt's had volume controls for each of 4 inputs which were linked together (and boosted) and the amp had a Master Volume as well. Very different from the gainier Marshall sound for sure, though.

[wildschwein]

I'm pretty sure Pete Townshend's modified late 60's Hiwatt's had volume controls for each of 4 inputs which were linked together (and boosted) and the amp had a Master Volume as well. Very different from the gainier Marshall sound for sure, though.

Ritchie Blackmore had similar mods done to his 200w Marshall heads in the early 70s.

[SeaFoamGreen]

Good info here (if it's all true):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_distortion#History

It's a good article, but it's wrong where it says that Leo was engineering his amps to OD in the 60's. Leo was always chasing clean. Marshall was also chasing clean (and louder) at the time, as that "distortion free" ad says.

This says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fender_Twin_Reverb

From about 1973 forward, a master volume with pull-boost (on a push-pull control) became a standard feature on all dual-channel silverfaced Fender models (usually known as "master volume" amps). Original master volume amps from late 1972 were made for a short time without that "pull boost" circuit on the master volume control.

So Fender started MV in '72 w no pull-boost for a short time, and then with the pull boost starting in '73.

But were they doing any cascade with this MV? Or was the MV just an attenuator? (My guess it was)

What does the pull boost do? Does it cascade the channels? Or does it act like the Hot Rod deluxe "More Gain" by allowing full potential voltage of the preamp tubes?

[Mister Mojo]

i think JMI, when producing the first Vox AC15, was one of the first amps that was designed to sound "good" when cranked and distorting.

[billyguitar]

Ovation's first amps had a terrible builtin fuzz tone in '68 or '69. Kustom came along with theirs somewhere in there too. Otherwise the first commonly available amps were the Fenders, as I recall. I used to use an LPB1 into my Dual Showman in the early 70s and actually got quite a good distortion using it and the master volume.

[Ulysses]

"The most powerful, distortion-free amplifiers in the world".


I know the Fender silverface Quad and Super Six Reverb amps had MV's in 1972 for sure.

But was this an acknowledgment of giving players a way to have OD at lower vols... or was it just another feature to allow multiple instruments to be used in the same amp and "mixed" ??

?


I have a pretty clear memory of the day in 1972 I was in a local music store and the visiting Fender rep told me to plug into a Super Six. There was a new Quad reverb on the showroom floor as well and he was doing an impromptu in-store demonstration for those who just happened to be hanging around. The first thing he showed us was the master volume feature to get distortion at low volumes. We cranked the amp, backed the master down about 2 or 3. Low volume distortion... I also remember it sounded much like all master amps with very little muscle in the mids, quite buzzy and I wasn't completely sold. I'm pretty sure the master design was intended to achieve a low volume overdrive.

The solid state Thomas Organ built Vox amps also had built in distortion/fuzz (with footswitch) in the mid/late 60's. By 1966 I believe, possibly as early as '65?

[billyguitar]

When I used those first master volume Fenders, a Vibrosonic and a Dual showman Reverb, I used an LPB1 to add more drive. Actually sounded very good.

[Guitar Dave T]

It seems to me like the first time "distortion" was acknowledged by an amp maker was when Marshall released the first master volume amp. I was a wee lad back then, so I'm not saying that from personal experience. Just from what I've read.

Not hardly, sorry. The first master volume Marshalls weren't until 1975. Randall Smith of Mesa Boogie is widely acknowledged to be the first, starting hotrodding Princeton Reverbs with master volumes in 1967, with the first official "Boogie" released in 1970.

[kingsleyd]

It's funny how things develop and evolve, but I wasn't alive back then and some here where. So....IMO I believe the following to be true:

Based on recorded history, tripped out tunes from late 59 (rare and cultish) and into the 60's (pop psyc.) included distortion in their sound. I believe that this "new" trend in music coincided with the birth of the drug culture.

When amp makers began to adapt to a consumer need for distortion, the trend for distorted guitar sounds in popular music was already 10-15 years in the making. This lag is attributed to a few things-- like making sure this new sound is not a passing fad, perhaps a little resistance to the counter culture that this "new" kind of music represented and then finally the time needed for design and development.

Good points here. More food for thought: last weekend I happened to play through a 1959 AC-30. What kinda freaked the three of us out who were there listening and playing was how intense and gained out the EF-86 channel of that amp was. With a Tele (and not an especially aggressive sounding example) the thing sounded like Brian May. With a PAF Les Paul, it gave you a really modern-sounding high gain voice that sounded absolutely bitchen.

Now there isn't much recorded evidence that anybody was using a sound like that in 1959 or the early '60s, but Dick Denny (or one of his engineers) designed an amp that was very obviously voiced to distort in a harmonically rich and pleasing way, with a whole lot of gain on tap. Of course there wasn't a MV so it had to be pretty loud, but it wasn't overbearingly loud at all. So I'm thinking that there had to be at least some guitarists playing clubs back in those days who used that sort of sound. Time has forgotten them except inasmuch as there's an artifact (that early Vox amp) that suggests they had to have existed.

BTW, that's the sound that the Top-boost was introduced to emulate, which tells me there had to have been someone in 1962 saying, "Hey, why don't you make an amp that sounds like that '59 any more?"

[Flameout12]

My first amp was a Peavey Deuce in 1974...it had a MV. Crappy amp BTW.

Also, on a few recordings of the Beatles live, you can hear those AC-30s distorting quite a bit, so even without MVs, some guys were playing with distortion, even if they couldn't help it.

[62Tele]

I have to wonder when things are going to come full circle. I see a lot of posts about good clean tones - are folks getting tired of distortion only amps? It looks that way is you sum up a number of recent threads. Maybe that's what I'm reading into it since an amp that can only distort wears me out - matter of taste. But I do hope the market recognizes that not all guitar players want constant grind.

[Buddy Boy]

:AOK +1 I used an LPB1 into a brown pro for a tiny club gig 6 nites a week back in '71-72. When I used those first master volume Fenders, a Vibrosonic and a Dual showman Reverb, I used an LPB1 to add more drive. Actually sounded very good.

[Guitar Dave T]

:AOK +1 I used an LPB1 into a brown pro for a tiny club gig 6 nites a week back in '71-72.

Was the LPB1 the EH booster that plugged straight into the amp's input?

I had one of those with a Silvertone Twin for a blues/rhythm & blues band in the mid 70's. Sounded killer with my 335.

[The Pup]

Like Jerry stated, Voxes in the late '60s had a fuzz circuit built in.

[gldtp99]

But they eventually switched to SoundCity/HiWatt. What's that company's story? Were they also totally about volume, or did they do anything to add distortion? Someone mentions a BMF above - what was that all about?

I believe that the Sound City SMF is the amp that was mentioned---- even though it was called a BMF---- SMF stood for: SuperMotherF***er--- 150 watts---Clean and Dirty Channels, footswitchable--- Master Vol---you can clearly see the eight EL34's in the pic of my SMF but only six are output tubes---- two EL34's are used as the PI---unusual design all the way around:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/gldtp99/SMFPics006.jpg

[Flyin' Brian]

I believe the first MV Marshall was something like 1975. I've heard it touted as the first MV amp ever?
The Boogie predated it.

[Flyin' Brian]

I have to wonder when things are going to come full circle. I see a lot of posts about good clean tones - are folks getting tired of distortion only amps? It looks that way is you sum up a number of recent threads. Maybe that's what I'm reading into it since an amp that can only distort wears me out - matter of taste. But I do hope the market recognizes that not all guitar players want constant grind.

That's why so many amps are built with great touch sensitivity. You can move from clean to dirt with you pick or with your guitar's volume control.

[rockon1]

I have to wonder when things are going to come full circle. I see a lot of posts about good clean tones - are folks getting tired of distortion only amps? It looks that way is you sum up a number of recent threads. Maybe that's what I'm reading into it since an amp that can only distort wears me out - matter of taste. But I do hope the market recognizes that not all guitar players want constant grind.

Nah,I want it all! Great cleans and distortion! Cant stand pedals but thats just me.:) Bob

[Groovey Records]

Sea Foam

using an Amp selector I'm using two Twochannel amps

I'm running my 65 BF Vibrolux with Both Channels. The clean Channell and the Reverb/Trem Channel

And on my Supreme 16 I use the Top Boost full EQ channel and the AC15 EF86 channel

Sometimes just 1 channel or 2 or 3 or all four at the same time.

I have no need for boxes at all.

This covers it all for me Total Over Drive or Crystal Clean. Fender/Marshall/Vox tones in all their glory

[62Tele]

Bob - Yeah man, I want it all too! If somebody can tell me what "it all" is I'd appreciate it 'cause I've lost track.

Brian - I get the touch sensitivity thing, but there is this clean percussiveness that happens when you dig in to stiffer, higher wattage amps that is amazing for rhythm work - it's not by accident that Steve Cropper, even after the Neil young Tweed Deluxe thing, still uses a Twin (red knob even) as his stage amp, as does Eric Johnson, Brett Mason, et al. I've never heard one of the more touch sensitive amps perform the same way at band volumes. Very similar to high headroom acoustics to my ears - there are those that just pop at low volumes but wash out when you hit them hard and those that bloom when you bang on them. Not a better or worse, just different tools for different playing styles.

I love good tube amp distortion - it's the best. But I don't think amps aimed at clean tones should be as readily discounted as they have become in recent years and that distortion tone should be the end design of EVERY amp. It's all of course a matter of taste and tone goals.