is it really just mic placement?

[wsaraceni]

i have the following signal chain.

prs santana brazilian with lollar low wind imperial pickups -->
evidence audio instrument cable -->
komet 60 -->
marshall 4x12 -->
either a sm57 or an e609 -->
great river pre -->
digidesign 002r -->
protools

and i cant get a good guitar sound for the life of me. i dont know how to describe it, but the sound is always either fizzy or muddy and always sounds "far away". all i want to do is to sound like warren hanes on the intro to mr high and mighty :D

[rob2001]

I've found I need to drop gain levels and adjust EQ differently for recording VS. standing in front of it. For an example, put your ear where you put the mic.

[wsaraceni]

ive tried the eq thing and the gain thing. its just the having trouble getting it to sound up front. ill try to record a clip of what im talking about this weekend. i usually just hit the delete button when im done

[kandrus]

Could also be the converters in the 002. They aren't great.

[elambo]

For an example, put your ear where you put the mic.

Put your ear in front of a Komet 60??? I don't think so. It would be the last thing you ever hear.

[elambo]

i have the following signal chain.

prs santana brazilian with lollar low wind imperial pickups -->
evidence audio instrument cable -->
komet 60 -->
marshall 4x12 -->
either a sm57 or an e609 -->
great river pre -->
digidesign 002r -->
protools

and i cant get a good guitar sound for the life of me. i dont know how to describe it, but the sound is always either fizzy or muddy and always sounds "far away". all i want to do is to sound like warren hanes on the intro to mr high and mighty :D

With the exception of the 002, your equipment is all on par with what might be used on an album. I think it does come down to mic placement, or maybe a different mic. I have a similar amp - a Concorde - and I prefer the sound of a Royer 121 over a 57 for this amp. That being said, you should still be able to do very well with the 57.

So yes, experiment with the mic. If it sounds distant, try getting closer to the center of the cone of one of the speakers. If it's fizzy, maybe you're amp is too loud. It's not necessary to record amps at extremely high volumes for the sake of volume, unless the amp needs that kind of gain. Mid-level volume and even lower volume can work really well on tape.

[chrisgraff]

If your amp is too loud for the room, you'll have problems. Also, comparing your tone to a master recording isn't exactly fair. There's a reason great engineers are still in demand!

[Rusty G.]

Couple of tricks. . .you stated that it doesn't sound as up front as you want it to. First, get the sound in the room that you're trying to get on disc. Second, don't wet the sound with reverb, as that tends to push it back further into the mix. Third, try adding some compression. What are you using for compression. . .this takes away some of the ambience, but it brings it "more up front", which is what you said was missing.

Fourth. . .try fitting your sound in the mix. . .sometimes what we think sounds great on tape/disc didn't sound so good by itself. There have been many times I got a great sounding track that didn't sound so great in the mix. There have also been times that a track that didn't sound so good by itself sounded great in a mix.

And one last thing. Many times, what you're hearing on disc isn't what you thought was used by the artist. Try using a single coil pickup for the sounds you're seeking and see if you can't get closer to the sound in your head.

[Rusty G.]

And another thing. . .I've found that a Shure SM57 is just like using an E.Q. What I mean is that just moving the thing a few centimeters off axis, this way or that, makes a HUGE difference in the sound or tone that's captured by the recording. Shifting the angle of the mic makes a HUGE difference. . .especially when using cheap recording gear. I agree with another poster above that the A/D/A converters in the 002 aren't really that hot. Remember, everything in the signal chain can, and does, add or take away something to the end product.

[chrisgraff]

Try this...

Record a track direct, email it to me. I've got a Reamp box I've been meaning to dig into a bit more. ;)

[Guitarplayerdan]

I worked with a guy on a project and he said that another engener told him to try three mics in different locations on an amp. I dont know much about micing but omgosh, we had a 57 on a speaker, a smaller overhead (drum mic) on another, And a condenser a foot away. It sounded alot like my amp. But dont mind me I know nothing.

We soloed just the 57 and it sounded way muddy, in fact when we soloed every mic it sounded like crap. But when all three were on it sounded acurate. It was like each mic was bringing in a different freq from the amp.

[Audioholic]

you said you want an in your face sound? compression and post eq!

Use mix techniques to get something up front and in your face if you are at least half way happy with your track. It starts with your tone and recorded sound, but from there, you need to mix it in. double track it maybe, use more then one mic.....

[Rusty G.]

I agree with a couple of the posts above. One time we were mic'ing an old Mesa Mk 1 in a bathroom. . .a Shure 57 about a few inches in front of the speaker. . .a second mic, not sure of what it was. . .probably an overhead about 3 feet in front of the cabinet and another up around the corner of the ceiling about 7 to 8 feet from the cabinet. Ran all three into one channel (we were recording on an old Tascam 16 channel/1 inch tape). Sounded stellar.

Also, the idea about just playing with the tone until you get what works. I used to record with cheap mic pre's (RNP) and even used to try to do some stuff at home with an old Roland VS1680. Anyway, I've said this before, but sometimes I would spend a couple of hours just trying mic placement and would just turn everything off and count the night a failure. Sometimes I would hit it, and everything sounded right. Sometimes, I would get something I wasn't looking for, but it sounded great in the context of the song and the mix.

[BluesForDan]

i have the following signal chain.

prs santana brazilian with lollar low wind imperial pickups -->
evidence audio instrument cable -->
komet 60 -->
marshall 4x12 -->
either a sm57 or an e609 -->
great river pre -->
digidesign 002r -->
protools

and i cant get a good guitar sound for the life of me. i dont know how to describe it, but the sound is always either fizzy or muddy and always sounds "far away". all i want to do is to sound like warren hanes on the intro to mr high and mighty :D

son, if it were as easy as just plopping any old mic in front of any old speaker/cab, recording engineers would have been out of work long, long, long before computers made it possible to record at home. The converters in the 002 are probably the weak point of your chain, but that doesn't mean it is not possible to get at least decent sound. So in short, yes, it really is just mic placement. No one thing works for all situations, and you can take all the advice people with out a doubt have given or will give you, and still have to find your own solution. Maybe the SM57 is not the right mic. Maybe it is Your particular SM57 that is not the right mic. Maybe you do need the high dollar Royer. But first you have to exhaust the possibilities of placement for your mic. And there are an almost infinite number of placements. Furthermore, a movement of as much as an eighth of an inch can make a significant difference.

Ain't recording fun?

Got anybody who's either good on guitar or has good ears that you trust, and is willing to go insane working for 3 or 4 hours for no pay? Because if you don't, you will spend way more than 2 or 3 times as long trying to make it work.

What you are going to try to accomplish is what takes 3 people in a pro studio to do. Now, in a lot of cases, an experienced pro can look at the talent, the amp, the guitar, the mic closet. In 5 or 10 minutes, get a basic mic set up that with 15, 20 minutes tweaking, get a killer sound. What was that E-word again? Oh, yeah, experienced.

The engineer, from here on called the AE, listens (in the control room) while the intern moves the mic around the speaker (in the live room), while the guitar player plays (usually in the control room). The AE directs the intern via the talk back mic, while the intern listens on the headphones that both protects his hearing and allows him to hear the voice of the supreme commander, the AE.

I won't even go into the cluster**** that can ensue if one is unfortunate enough to have to endure constant kibitzing by a producer, or heavens forbid, an A&R mook. Consider yourself fortunate.

If it is just you and your trusted friend, one plays the guitar, while the other moves the mic and listens to the playback monitor. Without a talkback system, the mic mover should be the one listening to the playback. Which is not easy, because no headphone is truly sound isolating, unless it is like Iron Man's helmet.

Is this sounding difficult, or a lot of work, a major PITA? Well, buddy, it is. But it is a lot cheaper to spend the sweat, making the damn stuff you have work, than it is to keep buying expensive gear and still have it sound like shit.

*edit* and I almost forgot the most important thing. When you do find the sweet spot. Write it down. Everything. Where the mic is, how far from the grill, the angle. Also, watch your gain stages. Mic pres, channel levels, recording input levels. These also have an enormous effect on the sound going to tape/disk. Document all the settings for everything. Eq, pan, trim levels. Document. Document. Document. Take pics if you have to, but document it.

[wsaraceni]

thanks a lot for the info guys. i do realize that my mics and the 002r are the weak spot but i want to make sure i can get something acceptable on this setup before i go and get more new gear. ill let you know how it pans out

[Fantom1]

Bunch of things might be wrong, but it's probably a combo of many things. To me it sounds like you've got some phase cancelling and poor mic placement going on.

1) The room is bad acoustically- If you're room is too small, or whatever else, there's a good chance that some phase canceling is happening. Parallel walls are your nemesis. When recording, especially now that you can model rooms, add great reverb, etc. afterwards, you mostly want the recording as dry as possible for something like an amp.
If there's nothing you can do about the room, place the amp in a corner, slightly off-axis from the rest of the room. Next get a cardboard, or canvas storage box, and line it with acoustic foam. Place the mic inside the box and record. You want the mic as isolated from the rest of the room as possible. %80 chance this solves your problem.

2) The mic placement is poor.- This is something that varies a lot, but don't buy into the "place a 57 directly in front of the speaker and press record" school. That's great live when there are a lot of ambient noises, but for recording experiment a little. If it sounds far away you might actually need to give a little more breathing room and depth from the speaker. Also boosting the mids on the amp can help a "closer" sound.

3) The mic choice isn't appropriate. Again, an SM57 is great live because it rejects a lot of ambient noise and can handle high spls with ease. But recording you should try a few different mics. ALL mics have different eq curves. Choose a mic that has cut mids and try to do metal with cut mids and you're going to sound lifeless and flat. Again, if you don't have that luxury then experiement with mic placement.

4) Record with less gain. Distortion on a record can sound a lot different than distortion live. Most people waaaay over estimate the gain they hear vs. the actual amount.

[chrisgraff]

Bunch of things might be wrong, but it's probably a combo of many things. To me it sounds like you've got some phase cancelling and poor mic placement going on.

1) The room is bad acoustically- If you're room is too small, or whatever else, there's a good chance that some phase canceling is happening. Parallel walls are your nemesis.

Bing Bing Bing Bing...we have a winner!

[testing1two]

A lot of very good information here so far. Let me just say that the venerable 57 and 002 get a bad rap rather undeservedly. The converters in the 002 are completely adequate for home studio recording and can yield very good to excellent results, as can the trusty 57. If you're still hung up on this, have your 002 modded by Black Lion in Chicago.

Compressing the track in the mix is a big factor in getting 'studio' sound vs 'live' sound so spend lots of time there. I don't believe in using much eq unless it's being used as an effect of sorts. Corrective eq can and should be minimized through mic selection and placement.

Achieving a dry sound is often just a case of using what you have on hand. The cardboard box idea that Fantom mentioned is intriguing. I have been know to turn a mattress up on end and point a guitar cabinet towards it, maybe 3-4' away and place the mic between the cab and the mattress. I've even used this approach for vocals with excellent results.

[eBay]

*edit* and I almost forgot the most important thing. When you do find the sweet spot. Write it down. Everything. Where the mic is, how far from the grill, the angle. Also, watch your gain stages. Mic pres, channel levels, recording input levels. These also have an enormous effect on the sound going to tape/disk. Document all the settings for everything. Eq, pan, trim levels. Document. Document. Document. Take pics if you have to, but document it.

Loved your post and this last part was probably the most incredible advice I've ever seen here. It reminds me of Big Daddy Don Garlitts. In this documentary, it showed him with this little book that he writes everything in. It's a log of everything that worked or didn't and he was always referring to it. It struck me that that game was so complex, that it would be easy to forget simple stuff that worked in the past and become overwhelmed. It would so apply to what goes on in a session. Also, you're dead on about needing three people. I didn't even think about it but I was always around acting as the 2nd at my friend's place (a very popular studio in the 90's that hosted No Doubt, The Offspring, Rob Thomas, Marc Ford, and a bunch of others that never became as famous). I really got to the point where I don't even want to try to play and engineer on my own; it just blows me out of the process as an artist so bad. The jobs are mutually exclusive because engineering is a problem solving endevor more than trying to work a feeling into an idea.

[elambo]

...I've never seen mic placement make any real difference in the tone of an amp on a recording.

I was waiting for the "just kidding" but never saw it.

Mic placement makes or breaks an electric guitar tone. Some engineers will move and tilt mics a fraction of an inch, one degree at a time, to find the perfect angle and placement. These small tweaks can be very dramatic.

[rob2001]

Put your ear in front of a Komet 60??? I don't think so. It would be the last thing you ever hear.


LOL!! Understood! Just pointing out that what a close mic hears is much different from a human ear in the room at a distance.


On placement i'd agree that moving small amounts can affect the sound greatly.

Start dead center and listen as you move gradually outward. Huge difference.

[turdadactyl]

I just checked out the video of that tune at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgcUTUvoX90

First, you're going to need a fast attack compressor to get that sound. The compressor is set fast to kill the attack on the guitar.

Next, the guitar is not nearly as distorted as you might think. Roll back the gain some. You may also try to roll the volume off a wee bit on the guitar.

Third, I don't know a thing about Komets, but a Marshall 4x12 and a 57 into the Great River should definitely be capable of getting you that sound. I'm going to try it myself tonight and see how specific I can get for you. I think we can nail this sound relatively quickly.

So, bottom line...yes, it's mic placement, but not JUST mic placement.

...To be continued.

[Suproman77]

Bunch of things might be wrong, but it's probably a combo of many things. To me it sounds like you've got some phase cancelling and poor mic placement going on.

1) The room is bad acoustically- If you're room is too small, or whatever else, there's a good chance that some phase canceling is happening. Parallel walls are your nemesis. When recording, especially now that you can model rooms, add great reverb, etc. afterwards, you mostly want the recording as dry as possible for something like an amp.
If there's nothing you can do about the room, place the amp in a corner, slightly off-axis from the rest of the room. Next get a cardboard, or canvas storage box, and line it with acoustic foam. Place the mic inside the box and record. You want the mic as isolated from the rest of the room as possible. %80 chance this solves your problem.

2) The mic placement is poor.- This is something that varies a lot, but don't buy into the "place a 57 directly in front of the speaker and press record" school. That's great live when there are a lot of ambient noises, but for recording experiment a little. If it sounds far away you might actually need to give a little more breathing room and depth from the speaker. Also boosting the mids on the amp can help a "closer" sound.

3) The mic choice isn't appropriate. Again, an SM57 is great live because it rejects a lot of ambient noise and can handle high spls with ease. But recording you should try a few different mics. ALL mics have different eq curves. Choose a mic that has cut mids and try to do metal with cut mids and you're going to sound lifeless and flat. Again, if you don't have that luxury then experiement with mic placement.

4) Record with less gain. Distortion on a record can sound a lot different than distortion live. Most people waaaay over estimate the gain they hear vs. the actual amount.

Great post and it may just be a combination of all of the above in this case.

The absolute first thing to try, IMHO, is to lower the gain. That's a very common amateur mistake and it's also the easiest problem to fix.

Then work heavily on mic placements and try moving the mics away from dead center to get rid of that buzzy/fizzy sound and give it a warmer/fatter sound.

Another really important point is to get that cabinet up off the floor if he hasn't already. At least, tilt it back with a stand or put it up on a chair. Not only does it help get rid of that muffled sound, but you can also hear the actual tone of the amp a lot better in this position which in invaluable when setting the eq, gain, mic placements, etc.

As an alternative to using a cardboard box lined with foam, I would suggest he throw furniture pad/shipping blanket over the amp and mics. It's very handy for the home recording artist trying to work in an untreated room and a trick I just recently learned. The material is very thick and excellent for blocking out unwanted room sounds and isolating the amp. Costs like $20.

[MichaelK]

Could also be the converters in the 002. They aren't great.

It's absurd that the Digi 002 converters are so atrocious that they make a clean signal sound "fizzy," "muddy" and "far away."

[MichaelK]

There is a shitload of incredibly ill-informed advice in this thread.

SM57 1" from the grill, aimed dead-on at the seam where the dust cap meets the cone. Now relax and have some coffee.

[gainiac]

There is a shitload of incredibly ill-informed advice in this thread.



BS.

I've already had my coffee.

[gainiac]

Along with what everyone else has said here.........

(except MK)

I recommend that you get the best sound from your rig that you can get. Accurately try to capture that. Then you need to make an unbiased evaluation to determine if the gear you have can get you in the ballpark of the Warren tone you're referencing.

A big part of the solution is recognizing what does what best in the situation.

[MichaelK]

If it's fizzy, maybe you're amp is too loud.

True, and it could also be that the preamp gain is cranked too high.

[MichaelK]

Along with what everyone else has said here.........

(except MK)

I recommend that you get the best sound from your rig that you can get. Accurately try to capture that. Then you need to make an unbiased evaluation to determine if the gear you have can get you in the ballpark of the Warren tone you're referencing.

A big part of the solution is recognizing what does what best in the situation.

Well shit, I guess I could have gone for the easy point, too.

How about this:

Play as well as you can and record it. If it doesn't sound good, look for the reason why. When you discover the reason, fix it.

[gainiac]

Well shit, I guess I could have gone for the easy point, too.

How about this:

Play as well as you can and record it. If it doesn't sound good, look for the reason why. When you discover the reason, fix it.

You going to piss and whine now?

You gave asinine advice, what do you expect?

The other folks in this thread have pretty much covered all the pertinent technical stuff. The only other thing to discuss is approach. Care to enlighten us?

[turdadactyl]

It's absurd that the Digi 002 converters are so atrocious that they make a clean signal sound "fizzy," "muddy" and "far away."


+1 on that. The Digi 002 converters are not all that bad. People who think they are are usually more gearhead than critical listener. (And now that I've surely pissed at least a few people off...)

If you want to get around the 002's converters, just get yourself a small mixer with phantom power and run the direct outs into the line ins on the 002. I do that with a Mackie VLZ 1604. Works like a champ.

[gainiac]

If you want to get around the 002's converters, just get yourself a small mixer with phantom power and run the direct outs into the line ins on the 002. I do that with a Mackie VLZ 1604. Works like a champ.

Huh? You still need to A/D..........???

I run a Lucid A/D converter externally and connect via the lightpipe to the 002.

[turdadactyl]

Huh? You still need to A/D..........???

I run a Lucid A/D converter externally and connect via the lightpipe to the 002.

My bad...I was talking in terms of mic pres...which also get bashed a good bit on the 002.

Either way, I think the 002 is a much better piece of gear than people give it credit for. With decent pres and good mixing/mastering, you can get top notch sound working off the 002, IMO.

[gainiac]

My bad...I was talking in terms of mic pres...which also get bashed a good bit on the 002.

Either way, I think the 002 is a much better piece of gear than people give it credit for. With decent pres and good mixing/mastering, you can get top notch sound working off the 002, IMO.


Yup.......You just need to be creative with it. I do find that I'd much rather use good outboard gear rather than any plug-ins........

[Denyle_Guitars]

SM57 1" from the grill, aimed dead-on at the seam where the dust cap meets the cone.

I like to start there also (and usually end there). Then try angling it slightly if it's too harsh. You could spend the entire day moving the mic around or you could hit the little red button and play.

[Greggy]

I just checked out the video of that tune at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgcUTUvoX90

First, you're going to need a fast attack compressor to get that sound. The compressor is set fast to kill the attack on the guitar.

Next, the guitar is not nearly as distorted as you might think. Roll back the gain some. You may also try to roll the volume off a wee bit on the guitar.

Third, I don't know a thing about Komets, but a Marshall 4x12 and a 57 into the Great River should definitely be capable of getting you that sound. I'm going to try it myself tonight and see how specific I can get for you. I think we can nail this sound relatively quickly.

So, bottom line...yes, it's mic placement, but not JUST mic placement.

...To be continued.

Volume roll offs on the guitar can be very important. When I record gainier tracks, this is the most important adjustment. I already know the sweet spot for my 57 in my studio, also for preamp gain and all other links in the chain. So I use the volume control on the guitar for the final adjustments. The difference between 10 and 8 often makes the difference between recorded fizz and mush and sweet tonal nirvana.

[Guitarplayerdan]

taking pics also helps if you find the SWEET spot!

[Greggy]

I like to start there also (and usually end there). Then try angling it slightly if it's too harsh. You could spend the entire day moving the mic around or you could hit the little red button and play.

I start where Michael recommends then always angle if the track is gainy (30 to 45 degrees, the greater the angle the greater the high frequency/fizz rolloff, at least to my ears). If clean to light crunch, I leave it perpindicular to the grille cloth. Never more than 2 inches back from the grille. To my ears, the 57 loses its balls when further back from the grille. I love the 57, and 8 times out of 10 use it over a 421 and e609 silver.

[wsaraceni]

stinks this thread had to go south so fast.

id like to add, i know im not going to get mastered sounding recordings. but i should get good ones. i just need to spend time experimenting. i also think you have to tune and tune and tune your guitar as even the slightest out of tune string is totally apparent in a recording. so tonight i'll get another long mic cable and use both mics and move them around till i get something going.

thanks for your suggestions guys.

bill

[gainiac]

stinks this thread had to go south so fast.

id like to add, i know im not going to get mastered sounding recordings. but i should get good ones. i just need to spend time experimenting. i also think you have to tune and tune and tune your guitar as even the slightest out of tune string is totally apparent in a recording. so tonight i'll get another long mic cable and use both mics and move them around till i get something going.

thanks for your suggestions guys.

bill

I'd stick with one mic' until you get the hang of it.

[wsaraceni]

i meant ill experiment with both one at a time until i figure out which i like the most.

[Randaddy]

I skipped from page 1, so maybe this has been said.

Mic placement is crucial, but there are a few good places for the mic.
Here is what I did... and it worked great!

I made approximately 20 short recordings of a simple riff (maybe 10 seconds of sound) using single notes and chords, and I placed the mic in a different place for each recording. I wrote on paper the 20+ mic placement choices and numbered them 1 through 20. The placement choices were as follows...

Distance... against grill, 4 inches away, 10 inches away.
Alignment... center of speaker cone, edge of cone, half way between center and edge
Angle... perpendicular, 30 degrees, 60 degrees

So there are 3 choices of distance, 3 of alignment, 3 of angle. 3x3x3=27 total possibilities. I left a few out because I couldn't see them making much of a difference.

Example...
(number 1) 4 inches away, center of cone, perpendicular to cone.
(number 2) 4 inches away, center of cone, angled 30 degrees
(number 3, 4, 5, 6...)
(number 12) 10 inches away, edge of cone, perpendicular
(number...)... ok, ok! We get it!

I then listened to the recordings and learned many wonderful things!!!!

Angle made very little (if any) difference in my experiment.
Distance made a lot of difference! It changes the low frequency content, changing the clearity.
Alignment to cone made the biggest difference of all! Center placement had more highs... edge had fewer highs. Both could be good depending on your gear and the sound you're after.

You must learn what your mic sounds like with your gear using different placements.

Have fun. :AOK

[gainiac]

i meant ill experiment with both one at a time until i figure out which i like the most.

Cool!

[Tonekat]

What are you listening to playback through? And are they EQ'd for the room?

[rob2001]

A few last suggestions and i'm out. While i'm not into throwing money at issues, if you can, give an Audix I-5 a try. It's very 57-ish but it seems to tame the fizz for me.

I'd also 2nd what Greggy said about the volume knob on the guitar. Rolling that down a tad reduces gain and also rolls off the highs just a bit. I'm not saying thats the be-all fix-all but it's another variable that can aid in getting good tones to print.

[Randaddy]

...give an Audix I-5 a try


:agree And they're cheap!

[MichaelK]

You going to piss and whine now?

Nice try, but I won't engage in arguments with children. ;)

[Audioholic]

Audix I5 is a tiny bit more hi-fi then a 57, but surprisingly the 57 does a good job at capturing the info on a guitar amp quite well, which is why they are a guitar mic staple. I like to use condensers, and or 2 mics to get a fuller sound, but even still its placement, phase relationship between the mics etc.

The converters and pre's in the 002 are not that bad, and thats not the problem. Move your mic around, and don't expect your finished recording to sound like a finished record even once you get it where you are capturing the sound from your amp.

lots of mixing, post eq, compression, multi-tracking goes on.......

Close micing, eh, your room is not going to matter that much really...

can you post a sample of your clip? Its one thing to say do this or that, but without hearing your results, its kinda a moog point and guessing game...

[turdadactyl]

Ok, here's a quick and dirty 2-guitar recording of a riff similar to Mr. High & Mighty. (For those who didn't read the beginning, that's where this thread started.) I had never heard the song before this morning, so don't bother telling me if the riff is wrong...it's just for demo purposes.

Signal Chain:
Hard Right: Gibson Explorer (volume rolled back to 8) -> Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 50 -> Marshall 4x12 -> Electrovoice Cardinal condenser -> Digi002r -> Pro Tools LE 7.3

Hard Left: Gibson Explorer (volume rolled back to 8) -> Soldano Hot Rod 100 -> Genz Benz 2x12 -> Electrovoice Cardinal condenser -> Digi002r -> Pro Tools LE 7.3

In both instances, the mic was on axis, 3/4" from the grille, pointed at the edge of the dust cap. You could just as easily could have done this with an SM-57. I might give it a whirl tomorrow if I get bored.

Here's the snippet as mixed with very little EQ on the Marshall, no EQ on the Soldano and no compression. a la Mr. High & Mighty (http://www.96exposures.com/mule.mp3)

[Rusty G.]

I think the above snippet sounds great. :RoCkIn

[wsaraceni]

What are you listening to playback through? And are they EQ'd for the room?

dynaudio bm5as

[wsaraceni]

Ok, here's a quick and dirty 2-guitar recording of a riff similar to Mr. High & Mighty. (For those who didn't read the beginning, that's where this thread started.) I had never heard the song before this morning, so don't bother telling me if the riff is wrong...it's just for demo purposes.

Signal Chain:
Hard Right: Gibson Explorer (volume rolled back to 8) -> Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 50 -> Marshall 4x12 -> Electrovoice Cardinal condenser -> Digi002r -> Pro Tools LE 7.3

Hard Left: Gibson Explorer (volume rolled back to 8) -> Soldano Hot Rod 100 -> Genz Benz 2x12 -> Electrovoice Cardinal condenser -> Digi002r -> Pro Tools LE 7.3

In both instances, the mic was on axis, 3/4" from the grille, pointed at the edge of the dust cap. You could just as easily could have done this with an SM-57. I might give it a whirl tomorrow if I get bored.

Here's the snippet as mixed with very little EQ on the Marshall, no EQ on the Soldano and no compression. a la Mr. High & Mighty (http://www.96exposures.com/mule.mp3)


thanks. ill try and record the same riff and we can see where we can go from there

[gainiac]

Nice try, but I won't engage in arguments with children. ;)

Pffft....Byatch.

[MichaelK]

Pffft....Byatch.

Great, just what this forum needed: another brave little social misfit with nothing to say, starting cyber-fights from behind his computer screen. :rolleyes:

I haven't had to exclude one of these nutcases in years, I hope it still works...

[MichaelK]

Done. Sincere apologies to the o.p. for allowing it to get this far.

[gainiac]

Great, just what this forum needed: another brave little social misfit with nothing to say, starting cyber-fights from behind his computer screen. :rolleyes:

I haven't had to exclude one of these nutcases in years, I hope it still works...

You're as perceptive as a brick.

Only an ignorant dope would insist that everyone else, who have posted sound advice, in this thread are full of it.

You then go on with the "one-size fits all" notion that an on axis close proximity 57 is the salve for all electric guitar recording dilemmas.

That's BS. recording is about the approach not a formula in a vacuum.

[rob2001]

Ok, here's a quick and dirty 2-guitar recording of a riff similar to Mr. High & Mighty. (For those who didn't read the beginning, that's where this thread started.) I had never heard the song before this morning, so don't bother telling me if the riff is wrong...it's just for demo purposes.

Signal Chain:
Hard Right: Gibson Explorer (volume rolled back to 8) -> Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 50 -> Marshall 4x12 -> Electrovoice Cardinal condenser -> Digi002r -> Pro Tools LE 7.3

Hard Left: Gibson Explorer (volume rolled back to 8) -> Soldano Hot Rod 100 -> Genz Benz 2x12 -> Electrovoice Cardinal condenser -> Digi002r -> Pro Tools LE 7.3

In both instances, the mic was on axis, 3/4" from the grille, pointed at the edge of the dust cap. You could just as easily could have done this with an SM-57. I might give it a whirl tomorrow if I get bored.

Here's the snippet as mixed with very little EQ on the Marshall, no EQ on the Soldano and no compression. a la Mr. High & Mighty (http://www.96exposures.com/mule.mp3)


Might be my crappy computer speakers or the MP3 thing but it sounded kinda fizzy to me. I'd add that i've never had a condenser sound like a 57. I would speculate that if you did the same clip with a 57 it would sound different.

[turdadactyl]

I would speculate that if you did the same clip with a 57 it would sound different.


It will definitely sound different. I'm just giving him the details on how I put my clip together so he can try it with his gear.

While I'm on the topic, I'll add that when you try it, you don't necessarily need to use different amps. You can use different guitars with the same amp or different amps with the same guitar or different guitars with different amps or the same guitar with different settings on the same amp...you get the idea.

But remember...really distorted guitars will usually sound thin and fuzzy recorded. You need to clean the gain up a little bit (i.e. turn down) to keep the bottom end and the clarity. My approach to thickening up distorted guitars is to record one or two relatively crunchy tones (pan them out of each other's way if you use two) and then layer it with LESS distorted tones. Hell, if it worked for Mutt Lange and AC/DC, it's good enough for me.

To that end, on a Marshall I'd roll the gain back from where you normally have it and on an amp like a Soldano I'd roll back the gain and the presence.

[teleharmonium]

When a track recorded with a close 57 sounds distant, you can rule out the room being the issue, and it's a 57, so as long as you like that sound you can rule the mic out too as being the problem. If it's at a funny angle, placement could be part of it. But I would first try using less gain and more compression as others have mentioned. Depending on the mic, you may want to roll off some lows before the compressor so it isn't being triggered by a bunch of low end junk you don't really need anyway; however a 57 is probably rolling off enough low end on its own.

Personally I've gradually come to the realization that I prefer my own playing miked with a condensor at some distance. A 57, 609, or ATM29HE on the grille cloth sounds a bit too much like I'm going through an overdrive pedal and direct box, in comparison to a not-overly-bright condensor. I don't mind an old MD409 as much, but then I don't own one of those.

[MichaelK]

Personally I've gradually come to the realization that I prefer my own playing miked with a condensor at some distance.

I feel that works well with a large-diaphragm condenser. It's closer to the sound I hear in the room, but it doesn't capture the attack the same way close-miking with a small diaphragm condenser or a dynamic mic does. I've been using a small-diaphragm condenser up close at about a 35 - 45º angle, aimed at that same "sweet spot" (the dust cap seam). The actual angle depends on the mic and how far back the seam is from the grill.

I sometimes combine a close small/medium diaphragm mic – either a condenser or a 57 – with a LDC farther back.

Anyway, that's not the point... the o.p. is using only dynamic mics. They lose a LOT of their punch when the source is off-axis and at a distance, so placing the mic where it's facing the sweetest spot on the speaker is critical. To top it off, their output is low. Put all of that together and it's VERY easy to get a weak, thin sound. If someone is expecting a big, full sound comparable to a condenser mic, they might crank the preamp gain till it sounds loud enough to them... and end up overloading it. The guy has the right gear, he just needs to get it working right for him.

[rob2001]

Just thinkin out loud again.... there's a big difference in approach depending on the goal.
If the goal is a solo clip, condensers can aid in getting what you hear in the room. But many times in the mix of a full band, the single dynamic just feels and sounds better to me. I will do a condenser and a dynamic for leads sometimes but for the most part in a full mix, it's all dynamics.

[wsaraceni]

goal will be a solo clip just to attempt to learn micing technique as well as getting a cool amp demo type clips to post when asked.

[turdadactyl]

Ok, so here's a little lesson in what cleaning up your amp sound can do. (This is getting fun and educational for me too at this point.)

Clip 1 (http://www.96exposures.com/mule.mp3):
The original clip I posted. 2 tracks. 1) Explorer->Marshall->Cardinal. 2) Explorer->Soldano->Cardinal. There is some compression on this too.

Clip 2 (http://www.96exposures.com/mule3.mp3):
Just laid down second version. 2 tracks. 1) SG->Soldano->Cardinal. 2) SG->Boss OD-2r (low gain)->Zinky Blue Velvet (set clean)->Cardinal. No compression.

Take the side-by-side with those and you'll see what cleaning up the amp does.

Btw, everything is close-mic'ed.

[wsaraceni]

see, the tone of the 1st clip sounds nicer to me. the 2nd clip seems like there is a delay between the left and right side or something funny. the 2nd track does sound more "up front". kinda what i am looking for. kinda hard to compare the clips since they are two totally different setups though

[turdadactyl]

see, the tone of the 1st clip sounds nicer to me. the 2nd clip seems like there is a delay between the left and right side or something funny. the 2nd track does sound more "up front". kinda what i am looking for. kinda hard to compare the clips since they are two totally different setups though

The slight delay might just be my laziness. It's possible I didn't play the two tracks as tightly as I should have.

CORRECTION TO PREVIOUS POST: Clip 2 is Explorer to Soldano and SG to Zinky (not SG to Soldano).

As for comparing the two, remember that the signal chain is identical on all the tracks there except for the original sound source. Mics, placement, pre-amp, converter...everything except the amp and guitar. (And the Soldano/Explorer track is the same in both clips.) That's exactly where you can start to hear comparisons and decide what you like and don't like.

[codyprang]

I recorded this song (http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=13993) with an 002 and I don't think the guitar tones are all that bad

[wsaraceni]

heres my version of mr high and mighty.

how is this tone. ill probably mess around more but this is my starting point.

called guitar test
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=465374&content=music

[Ulysses]

Sounds fine to me. This is a very nice tone to start with. It would work just fine in just about any full band application. The next thing is to see what happens when you place it in a mix. The noise floor of the band completely changes the relative proportions of what frequencies become predominant. You'd probably end up trimming a bit of that thickness at 300 hz to avoid clutter with the drums and bass and maybe a touch of boost at 3k for presence. You've captured plenty of overall content to work with and the sound is warm, punchy, and aggressive. Nice job.

[KennyM]

What speakers are in the Marshall cab? Bigger diff in all those Celestions than some of the suggestions mentioned here.

Also, this may seem ridiculous, but sometimes a guitar that might seem great while playing live just doesn't cut it in the studio. Even an expensive well made one like your PRS.

The best thing you can do to find your sound in the studio is to beg borrow and steal every mic, cab, pre, amp and guitar you can get your hands on. You gotta try all the combinations. In the studio you can hear and feel very small percentages of change so little adjustments make a difference.

As for more specific techniques on how I like to record my guitars I'll copy something I posted last week on another mic placement thread. Here it is-


Here's my setup for getting great recorded guitar sounds-

Royer 121 on the center of the speaker into a Chandler TG2 mic pre.

Shure SM57 right next to the Royer aimed around the dust cover edge into a Chandler Germanium mic pre. Sometimes I will put this mic on a second speaker in the cab if it's a different type (G12H30 and a Blue for example).

I then blend the two mics to taste and record it to a single track. sometimes I may compress or eq it but usually just straight to tape (hard disk). The Royer gives me the body, tone and feel of the guitar sound, but used alone I usually have to add a lot of high end when I mix. The 57 adds back in the bite.

Once in a while I will use a mic placed a little further back but adding a "roomier" mic is a certain recipe for horrendous guitar sound unless your room sounds great. Remember a room mic is exactly that- a mic that is recording the room.

One trick for finding the sweet spot of the speaker is to put a set of headphones on and listen to the sound of the amps hiss and hum while moving the mic around. Where the hiss and hum sounds the fullest is usually the right spot.

Another thing that needs to be mentioned with regard to using multiple mics is that you have to absolutely have all the mics in phase with one another. Two or more mics out of phase is a sure way to ruin your guitar sound as it will cancel out certain frequencies and boost others in a very unatural fashion. It's easy to check this out if you are recording to a DAW where you can zoom way in and see the waveform. Record each mic to it's own track playing just a single strum and then zoom in and look at the waveform. The two waveforms need to be perfectly in phase meaning that these two waveforms need to line up with one another. If one waveform is a little behind then you need to move that mic closer to the speaker. When I say closer, I mean like a 1/4 of an inch at a time. Record and check it out again. Keep doing this until both those waveforms lineup perfectly. This may sound tedious and it is, but after you do it a few times you start get a feel for where the mics need to be in relation to one another. I usually can set up the two mics and have them perfectly in phase on my first or second check. Whenever I'm not getting the sound I want I usually find that it's because the two mics are not in phase.

Also, you can take this for what it's worth. If recording guitar is something you do a lot of just go get yourself a Royer 121. While you may find it a little dull sounding especially compared to a dynamic like a 57 or any condenser, the body and most important, the feel of guitar through this mic is just beautiful. I've been tracking guitars since the late 70's and I wish I could go back and re-record every single guitar part I played before I bought a pair of Royers. Sure at $1100 bucks it's getting into the range of what you might spend on a guitar or amp, but the contribution it will make to your recorded guitar sound makes it a well worth it investment in my opinion. They also sound great on many other sources.
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[wsaraceni]

Sounds fine to me. This is a very nice tone to start with. It would work just fine in just about any full band application. The next thing is to see what happens when you place it in a mix. The noise floor of the band completely changes the relative proportions of what frequencies become predominant. You'd probably end up trimming a bit of that thickness at 300 hz to avoid clutter with the drums and bass and maybe a touch of boost at 3k for presence. You've captured plenty of overall content to work with and the sound is warm, punchy, and aggressive. Nice job.


thanks. when i recorded it, i have the track playing as well which i thought made the recording sound better although that could have been his guitar coming through. is there anyting really bad about it you'd think i could try to fix?

i really gotta find a group to play with to get some drums and bass to go with it as well.

[wsaraceni]

What speakers are in the Marshall cab? Bigger diff in all those Celestions than some of the suggestions mentioned here.

Also, this may seem ridiculous, but sometimes a guitar that might seem great while playing live just doesn't cut it in the studio. Even an expensive well made one like your PRS.

The best thing you can do to find your sound in the studio is to beg borrow and steal every mic, cab, pre, amp and guitar you can get your hands on. You gotta try all the combinations. In the studio you can hear and feel very small percentages of change so little adjustments make a difference.

As for more specific techniques on how I like to record my guitars I'll copy something I posted last week on another mic placement thread. Here it is-



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i have no idea what speakers are in the cab right now. i think they are the stock g12t-75s which i actually like the way they sound. i have another cab with blues i can try to record i just need to clean up the space where teh cabinet is a little bit.

[KennyM]

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i have no idea what speakers are in the cab right now. i think they are the stock g12t-75s which i actually like the way they sound. i have another cab with blues i can try to record i just need to clean up the space where teh cabinet is a little bit.

I would think you'd be closer to that sound with some G12M's or G12H30's. I usually find those record real well. While a Blue is actually my favorite it doesn't have as much chunk as the M and H's. You might try micing up your 4x12 as well as the Blue and blend them together.