Questions about the V.O.S. Les Pauls...

[VLJ]

1-Why the $2100 upcharge for the '59, vs the '58 or '60? Same bodies, p/ups and electronics. Same nitro finish. Same solid mahagony (non weight relieved or chambered) bodies. Same fretboards, fretboard inlays and frets. They all get PLEK'd. Only differences I can see between 'em are the neck profiles and the '59's and '60's figured tops vs the '58's plain top. Gibson normally only charges about $200 more for figured tops so why the $2100 upcharge for the '59?

2-What are the neck profiles on the '58, '59 and the '60? I know the profiles of the non historic Standard's slim taper '60s neck and the fat '50s neck but I have no idea how the V.O.S. profiles compare to those two non V.O.S. profiles. In particular I have no clue as the '59's profile, assuming the '58's and '60's are identical to those of their non historic Standard counterparts.

-Are the V.O.S.'s Burstbucker I & 2s potted, and how do they compare in terms of tone and output to Classic '57s and BB Pros?

-Are the pickguards already mounted on the V.O.S. guitars (and the new 2008 Les Paul Standard Traditional) or are they included inside the case like they are with the non historic Standards? (Musician's Friend makes a conspicuous mention of the new 2008 Standard's pickguard being inside the case but there's no similar mention regarding the Traditional or any of the V.O.S. models.) I REALLY don't want the pickguard mounted on the guitar so I'm wondering if these guitars can be ordered with the pickguards stowed away in the case...

[esoteric pete]

dont bother yourself with the questions as to why gibsons pricing is how it is.

[GuitarsFromMars]

Gibson wants all your money...

[XKnight]

1-Why the $2100 upcharge for the '59, vs the '58 or '60?

The up charge is for the flame top. Gibson does it simply because folks are willing to pay it.


2-What are the neck profiles on the '58, '59?

The R8 has a 50's neck carve. It's a very thick and full neck, but they do vary significantly in my experience. I played a few that were too big for me, but found one that is just right. The R9 has a slimmer profile than the R8. The R9 is more like a 60's slim taper neck.



Are the pickguards already mounted on the V.O.S. guitars

My R8 pick guard came already mounted. Not sure if the dealers mount them or if it's done at the factory. My guess is that they are mounted at the factory though based upon the advertised photo's on the Gibson website

Maybe someone else can answer your other questions.

[Mattbedrock]

Is the top worth the upcharge? Probably not, but you can look at the pictures and decide for yourself:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj91/Mattbedrock/R9top2.jpg

The neck profile on my R9 is definitely not like the slim taper on my LP Classic or my ES-335. It is full and thick - slightly thicker than my Deluxe reissue.

My R9 came with the pickguard already mounted. 3 screws and its off.

The Burstbuckers are similar in output to '57 Classics but brighter and more chimey. '57 Classics sound a little dark to me. They are not as hot as the ceramic magnet hb's on my classics but have a more pleasant tone, especially clean.

As far as the price, you can find them for $3500 - $4000 if you're willing to shop arond and wait for a bargain. I got mine for $3750. Too much? Yeah, but I wanted it. It is real nice. :dude

[Shnook]

Actually the frets are the same now on the R8's and R9's. The upcharge is for better wood on the 'R9's. Usually lighter and the tops are figured on the R9's. The necks are supposedly thinner, but my R4 has a smaller neck than my R9, but both are very comfortable. Then there's the fact that the original '59 Bursts were/are THE Les Paul.

So if you prefer a lighter/prettier guitar go for the R9. If you don't care about that stuff find an R8 that speaks to you.

[Bluedawg]

The VOS LPS are the same as the Historic reissue LPs. VOS has a non glossy finish and slightly aged hardware. They are not quite "relics," though. They can be had in a glossy finish for slightly more money.

Normally the '60 (R0) reissues are just as much as the R9s. They have similarly flamed tops as well.

Only the plain top Guitar Center '60 reissues are sold at the lower prices. Looks like Musician's Friend is also selling these now. MF and GC are owned by the same company afterall. These are excellent guitars and usually as good as the R9s.

And yes, you are mainly paying extra for the flame, though some may argue that Gibsons reserves the best wood for the flamey R9s and R0s.

R7s and R8s are usually just as good as most R9s and R0s.

Neck sizes vary, but the R0s have the thinnest necks of the Historics on average. Otherwise, the neck sizes usually go up as the # in the R# series goes down, but you can always find exceptions to this rule like Shnook's R4. R4s and R2s are usually the thickest necks. Not many R2s around, though.

Burstbuckers installed at the factory are potted. Burstbuckers sold seperately as after-market pups are unpotted. Last I heard.

Pickguards are always mounted on the historics at the factory. Ordering one without the pickguard can probably be done, but it is probably not worth the hassle or extra cost. Check with historic dealers to see what they can do for you.

http://www.ccitymusic.com/
http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/index.html
http://guitarsale.com/

Good luck

:banana

[VLJ]

The up charge is for the flame top. Gibson does it simply because folks are willing to pay it.

After checking around some more I've discovered that I was in error before. The '60 isn't a couple grand less than the '59, not unless you get the '60 with a plain top. Like the plain maple top '58 the plain maple top version of the '60 is also a couple grand less than the figured maple top version of the '60...or the '59, which only seems to be available with the more expensive figured top.

Still though, that's insane. On just about every other LP the price difference between plain maple tops and figured tops is only $200 or so, which is all it should be. Why on earth does the figured top upgrade cost $2K+ on the V.O.S. models??? Hell, it's not like Gibson even uses Carvin or PRS "10 Top" level figured tops either. Gibson's figured V.O.S. tops are still only "AA" plain. They're nothing spectacular. Besides, even crazily figured maple only costs a little more than plain maple.

Again, this is just insane. I must be missing something here. No way in hell Gibson has the balls to charge $2K+ more just to go from a plain maple top V.O.S. to a lightly flamed maple top V.O.S. $2K+?? That's the cost of an entire 2008 Les Paul Standard Traditional!! I can't believe Gibson would even try this; more importantly, I can't believe anyone in their right mind would pay it.

I gotta be missing something here. There HAS to be some other difference, to justify a $2K+ upcharge...doesn't there??

[VLJ]

Frets - no?

'58 frets are different than '59 frets, and it was the '59 frets along with the thinner neck backshape that got people rockin' on LPs. Almost all the noteworthy LPs used by big guitarists of the 60s and 70s were '59 bursts.

So you get a flametop, the iconic frets, and the iconic backshape - all three things that aren't terribly easily to change on a guitar. So if you want them or feel you need them to be like your guitar hero, you will pay what THE MAN says.

Okay, so at least now you're showing me something else that's different between the '58 and '59 besides the tops and the neck profiles. Thanks. Still, one size of frets costs no more than another size so again there's no way to justify a $2K+ upcharge just for different sized frets, less neck wood and a prettier top.

Anyway, about the differing fret sizes...how do they differ? Compared to the '58's are the '59 frets taller, or thicker? Also, how do the '59's frets and neck profile compare to the '60's?

[Shnook]

Okay, so at least now you're showing me something else that's different between the '58 and '59 besides the tops and the neck profiles. Thanks. Still, one size of frets costs no more than another size so again there's no way to justify a $2K+ upcharge just for different sized frets, less neck wood and a prettier top.

Anyway, about the differing fret sizes...how do they differ? Compared to the '58's are the '59 frets taller, or thicker? Also, how do the '59's frets and neck profile compare to the '60's?

They are the same size now. There is NO difference in the fret size of the R8/R9's.

I think there have been several well informed posts on this thread explaining why the R9 costs more. As I stated above, buy the one that speaks most to you.

[Bluedawg]

After checking around some more I've discovered that I was in error before. The '60 isn't a couple grand less than the '59, not unless you get the '60 with a plain top. Like the plain maple top '58 the plain maple top version of the '60 is also a couple grand less than the figured maple top version of the '60...or the '59, which only seems to be available with the more expensive figured top.

Still though, that's insane. On just about every other LP the price difference between plain maple tops and figured tops is only $200 or so, which is all it should be. Why on earth does the figured top upgrade cost $2K+ on the V.O.S. models??? Hell, it's not like Gibson even uses Carvin or PRS "10 Top" level figured tops either. Gibson's figured V.O.S. tops are still only "AA" plain. They're nothing spectacular. Besides, even crazily figured maple only costs a little more than plain maple.

Again, this is just insane. I must be missing something here. No way in hell Gibson has the balls to charge $2K+ more just to go from a plain maple top V.O.S. to a lightly flamed maple top V.O.S. $2K+?? That's the cost of an entire 2008 Les Paul Standard Traditional!! I can't believe Gibson would even try this; more importantly, I can't believe anyone in their right mind would pay it.

I gotta be missing something here. There HAS to be some other difference, to justify a $2K+ upcharge...doesn't there??

Since about 2003 the flamed maple tops have been using Eastern maple which has less figure, but it is more historically accurate than the super flame you can get with western maple that was used on some of the '59 reissues in the 90s. Most of the originals do not have much flame and tend to have more subtle tops.

Prices on some of the 90s "killer" flame topped '59 reissues can be over $10K when they do show up in the used market. :eek:

Gibson charges that much because they can. People are willing to pay that to get the '59 and figured top '60 reissues.

If it's not worth the extra cash to you there is nothing wrong with you, but many feel it is worth the extra money.

You can always look out for a nice used R9 as well and save a little of the upcharge if you just have to have flame.

Keep an eye on http://www.marksguitarloft.com/ for some nice R9s and R0s at used prices.

welcome to the world of Gibson Historic reissues. :jo


:banana

[VLJ]

Okay, so maybe Gibson uses lighter mahogany with the figured top models? Is this something Gibson states up front to the public as a means of explanation for the enormous upcharge? Or, is this just speculation? I haven't seen anything official from Gibson which states that the figured top V.O.S. models get lighter mahagony than plain maple top V.O.S. models.

[Bluedawg]

Okay, so maybe Gibson uses lighter mahogany with the figured top models? Is this something Gibson states up front to the public as a means of explanation for the enormous upcharge? Or, is this just speculation? I haven't seen anything official from Gibson which states that the figured top V.O.S. models get lighter mahagony than plain maple top V.O.S. models.

From what I've seen it is speculation by knowledgable people. :messedup

The best and lightest mahogany goes to the Historic LP line. The best and lightest out of that batch tends to go to the figured top guitars,

but

A given batch of mahogany may be lighter or heavier than another batch. So you will find some R8s and R7s that are lighter than some R9s.

And lighter is not always better when it comes to LPs.

In the end it's best to play as many as you can get your paws on and take home the one that you like best.

:)

[VLJ]

Bluedawg, thanks for the info. Strange, that they went to Eastern maple, even on the original ones. Western maple is usually lighter and it has more figuring so why did Gibson originally choose the heavier and less figured version?

Hmmm. You guys are a great resource. Thanks again.

Shnook, I tried using "Search" to locate some of the threads you mentioned but I wasn't really very successful in finding anything of value. Might you link me to some of what you're talking about?

Anyway, if I'm reading everybody correctly a figured top '60 and a '59 are essentially identical guitars, with the only difference being the neck profiles. Is this a tiny difference and the '59 is really close to the '60 (and therefore nothing at all like the '58) or is there a really marked difference between the '59 and '60 neck profiles?

[VLJ]

In the end it's best to play as many as you can get your paws on and take home the one that you like best.

Agreed, absolutely. Problem there is good luck finding "wall hanger" examples of each of these guitars, ready and waiting for me to give 'em a test drive; good luck in my neck of the woods, anyway. I'll likely end up having to roll the dice on a sight unseen version, hoping the recent addition of the PLEK process by Gibson will take care of some of the horrible set up jobs I've seen on other recent year Gibsons.

This is why I'm asking you guys this stuff. Trying to get all my questions answered before I ever get around to ordering up the wrong guitar.

Man, the one thing that really bugs me is the pickguard issue. Sure, you can remove it. You can remove it and then you'll have three holes sitting there in your $5K guitar, including two holes right on the top of the guitar.

Anybody know if the 2008 Standard Traditional includes a factory mounted pickguard, or is it like the Standard and the pickguard is merely included inside the case? I'm not a fan of getting a "weight relieved/swiss cheese" LP and I'd prefer nitro to lacquer but for thousands less $$, Classic 57s instead of BBs, the same pots and caps as a V.O.S. and no pickguard the Traditional may in fact might be the way to go for me.

[Bluedawg]

Bluedawg, thanks for the info. Strange, that they went to Eastern maple, even on the original ones. Western maple is usually lighter and it has more figuring so why did Gibson originally choose the heavier and less figured version?

Hmmm. You guys are a great resource. Thanks again.

Shnook, I tried using "Search" to locate some of the threads you mentioned but I wasn't really very successful in finding anything of value. Might you link me to some of what you're talking about?

Anyway, if I'm reading everybody correctly a figured top '60 and a '59 are essentially identical guitars, with the only difference being the neck profiles. Is this a tiny difference and the '59 is really close to the '60 (and therefore nothing at all like the '58) or is there a really marked difference between the '59 and '60 neck profiles?


IIRC the eastern maple is harder than the western and some believe it affects the tone. Since the originals had eastern then that is what the anal vintage types prefer.

Yes, the '59 and '60 reissues are essentially identical except for the neck profile. Normally the '59s are thicker necked than the '60s, but there are always exceptions when it comes to Historic LP neck thicknesses.

I would also argue that the R7s, R8s, R9s, and R0s are essentially the same guitars except for the colors, figured tops, and neck profiles and maybe wood selection, ....... maybe.

R4s have singlepiece bridges and are usually gold tops. Most have P-90 pups. R4 Oxbloods have humbuckers.

R6s are the same as the R7s through R0s, but they have P-90 pups and are usually gold tops.

Be sure to cruise www.lespaulforum.com (http://www.lespaulforum.com) and www.mylespaul.com (http://www.mylespaul.com) for more LP fun.

:)

[Bluedawg]

[quote=VLJ;4562577]Agreed, absolutely. Problem there is good luck finding "wall hanger" examples of each of these guitars, ready and waiting for me to give 'em a test drive; good luck in my neck of the woods, anyway. I'll likely end up having to roll the dice on a sight unseen version, hoping the recent addition of the PLEK process by Gibson will take care of some of the horrible set up jobs I've seen on other recent year Gibsons.

.

[quote]


Check out the dealer section at www.lespaulforum.com (http://www.lespaulforum.com) and see if there is one close to you. It may be worth the trip.

:)

[voodoovox]

This photo has made the rounds over the years:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/voodoovox/Gibson20LP20weight20codes20small.jpg
When buying a Historic LP if you want flames or Tom Murphy to age it, you are going to pay for it.:horse

[DEMENTED]

It's all a bunch of marketing, a way for Gibson to cash in on the Les Paul popularity of the past 18-20 yrs. It's hard to buy sight unseen, I had a '01 R8 that had a highly figured top and weighed 8 lbs 12 oz. I now have a '05 R9 with a mild top and it weighs 8 lbs 14 oz. The necks are almost indentical. It's a crapshoot I tell ya! :jo

[XKnight]

...I'd prefer nitro to lacquer...

Those terms are generally interchangeable for Nitrocellulous Lacquer.

The LP Standard and Traditional has a Nitro finish too, but is going to be a fairly thick high gloss finish whereas the VOS series is going to have a less polished finish. The VOS finish also feels thinner to me, but I have nothing to confirm that. The VOS finish definitely has a worn in feel to it. It all comes down to personal preference and how much cash you want to spend.

[Shnook]

I'd suggest if one is truly interested in purchasing a very nice "like new" Historic Les Paul that they go to www.marksguitarloft.com (http://www.marksguitarloft.com) .

[Mondoslug]

Anybody know if the 2008 Standard Traditional includes a factory mounted pickguard, or is it like the Standard and the pickguard is merely included inside the case? I'm not a fan of getting a "weight relieved/swiss cheese" LP and I'd prefer nitro to lacquer but for thousands less $$, Classic 57s instead of BBs, the same pots and caps as a V.O.S. and no pickguard the Traditional may in fact might be the way to go for me.

Mine came with the pickguard mounted. That's how they're shipping them. I know everybody's got a great sounding LP....me too. Great sounding guitar, swiss cheese & all. If you don't have an X-ray machine nobody'll know. I had an R8, nice guitar...this is a better sounding one.
Pick the one that sounds good.

[bluesjuke]

The price difference is because in the guitar world '59 is the magic marketing number.

Didn't your skin tingle a little when you just read ""59"?

[DrumBob]

I asked this question yesterday to the Gibson rep at Alto Music. Why are the VOS guitars so expensive? His answer was exactly the BS response I expected; they're more labor intensive, but street price is another story, after all. Well, the 59 Sunburst VOS lists at over $8 grand. Even at street price, it's still going to cost you $5K by the time you get done with sales tax, etc. That's a healthy chunk 'o change any way you slice it.

I also told him they should get rid of "King Henry," and the guy actually stuck his fingers in his ears and made a funny face, saying, "Hey, all I do is drive these guitars around the country taking them to events like this."
The NY Gibson sale rep was sitting there, looking like some kind of potentate who was too good to get off his ass and talk to people.

The VOS guitars are nice, but WAY overpriced.

[Bluedawg]

The price difference is because in the guitar world '59 is the magic marketing number.

Didn't your skin tingle a little when you just read ""59"?


LOL

I felt a tingle run up my leg. :messedup :p

It is what it is.

If you want play with "Gibson" on the headstock you have to pay. That's also true for lots of other names out there as well.

The main advantage of a Gibson (or Fender or Martin or PRS etc.) is that enough people will pay for it that you won't lose as much in resale value in the long run.

Of course that's also a great argument for buying used. With a widely recognized name like Gibson you may not lose any money at all if you buy used and sell a few years later.

Only you can decide wether paying that extra up front is worth your hard earned cash or not.

:dude

[bluesjuke]

My R7, R8, and Historic 335 work fine without paying a few thousand extra for an R9.

[Bluedawg]

My R7, R8, and HIstoric 335 work fine without paying a few thousand extra for an R9.


Yup

If you can live without a highly figured top you'll save some money and you can still find yourself a great guitar.

:dude

[Heinz W]

Re the pickguard thing, my R0 came without it installed. So at least some are shipping without 'em on. I put mine on myself, I prefer the look with it on.

[tacorivers]

My R7, R8, and HIstoric 335 work fine without paying a few thousand extra for an R9.

Amen. My R8 suits me just fine.

[dankayaker]

I just picked up a 2008 R8 that is 8 1/2 pounds . . . .I'm very pleased.
Also, the VOS dull finish (in case you don't care for it) can be buffed out. I used a little lemon oil on mine it it looks glossy now.

[Flinto2002]

Okay, so at least now you're showing me something else that's different between the '58 and '59 besides the tops and the neck profiles. Thanks. Still, one size of frets costs no more than another size so again there's no way to justify a $2K+ upcharge just for different sized frets, less neck wood and a prettier top.

Anyway, about the differing fret sizes...how do they differ? Compared to the '58's are the '59 frets taller, or thicker? Also, how do the '59's frets and neck profile compare to the '60's?

VLJ-

Just accept it brother, the emperor has no clothes. The guitar costs 2K more cause it is a '59, and that is the iconic year. Gibson charges that much cause the can get it, they sell all the 59's they make at that crazy upcharge...and next year the guitar will cost more.

Quit looking for reason on this, there is none, this is corporate america.

[FeloniousBishop]

Great thread so far. I have a few questions of my own and rather than start a new thread can I just add in to this one?

I have a 1998 R8. It has a nicely figured top and is quite a bit lighter in weight than my other Les Paul. Some things I was wondering:

1) Does "V.O.S" apply only to the recent reissues or is mine a V.O.S. too? (In fact, what does VOS mean?)

2) Why does mine, from 1998, have a figured top when the newer R8's don't?

3) Is any 1958 reissue called an R8?

4) What's different about the new R8s versus mine from 1998, other than they stopped putting figured tops on them?

5) Any knowledgable Les Paul person care to offer an opinion as to the ideal weight for a Les Paul as far as correlating with best tone.

6) I'm also curious if anyone could explain how to correlate the sound of a Les Paul as played acoustically with how it will sound plugged in? I'll generally grab guitars off the rack and play them for a minute and hardly ever plug one in unmless I really like it. But I may be missing out on a good sounding one this way.

7) Are there any known good or bad years for the R8s?

thanks
-FB

[benjisaynomore]

I have an Epi. Les Paul Custom. I upgraded the pickups to a nice PAF setup. Replaced the pots/wiring with CTS industry standard stuff, & had the frets dressed.

I have picked up many of les pauls off the shelf of GC (mostly standards) and hands down (HANDS DOWN) prefer my Epi. to them all.

Is there really a distinguishable difference between my $649.99 Epi. with $250 of upgrades and a VOS $3,000 Les Paul???

Help a fellow consumer out...

[SgtThump]

This photo has made the rounds over the years:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/voodoovox/Gibson20LP20weight20codes20small.jpg
When buying a Historic LP if you want flames or Tom Murphy to age it, you are going to pay for it.:horse
Aren't those weights pretty darn high for just the Les Paul backs? Heck, the entire guitar is close the weights listed on that sign, right?

[VLJ]

Just got off the phone with Gibson. Interesting...

-Like someone here already mentioned, despite MF's listing of the Gibson USA 2008 Standard and Traditional as having "lacquer" finishes while the V.O.S. LPs get "nitrocellulose" finishes both finishes are in fact the same thing. Gibson uses nitro (in varying thicknesses, buffed to different finishes) on all their Standard and V.O.S. LPs.

-The new (Gibson USA) 2008 Les Paul Standard Traditional's "'50's neck" profile is based on the V.O.S. '59's profile. (So is the "'50's neck" on the previous model year Standards.) It's nowhere near as "baseball bat clubby" (the guy's exact words) as the '58's but it's definitely heftier than the '60's.

-NO Gibson USA LPs with "AA" figured tops ship with the pickguards installed. Only the solid color (ebony and gold top) "A" grade tops ship with the pickguards installed.

-ALL V.O.S. LPs ship with the pickguards installed, regardless of burst finishes or figured tops.

-Like someone here already mentioned the Burstbucker I and II come potted if they're included in the guitar from the factory but they come unpotted if you buy them separately.

-The reason for the $2100 upcharge on the V.O.S. LPs with figured tops: supply and demand. They can charge it and people will pay it, for the "period correct" figured top look. It's that simple.

Sounds like the Traditional in a "AA" burst finish would be my best bet then. The only thing I'd be giving up would be the solid body but it sure seems that the vast majority of people seem to think the "swiss cheese" weight relieved LPs sound no different than the solid body versions. It seems like the fully chambered bodies sound different to some people but the "swiss cheese" ones don't suffer any noticeable tonal loss. With the Traditional you still get the CTS pots and Bumblebee caps plus I'd rather have Classic '57s over BB Pros or Burstbucker I and IIs anyway. No pickguard too. Then there's the simple fact of $2200 for a figured top Traditional vs $5499 for a figured top V.O.S. '59.

Yeah, I guess for a $3K+ difference I can swallow some "swiss cheese."

[frank62]

^Thanks for the info. So then, the new Traditional with a flame top is 2200?

[Dave Orban]

"All your moneys are belong to us!"

[SgtThump]

...Then there's the simple fact of $2200 for a figured top Traditional vs $5499 for a figured top V.O.S. '59...

Sigh... The "Traditional" is not an R9 that's $2,200 cheaper...

Just admit that there's nothing anyone can say that will ever convince you that an R9 is worth $5,000+, so just give up on it and go with the regular production models...


:Devil

[dankayaker]

You can get an R8 new for about $2600+. I've owned other LP based guitars that were chambered and they sounded different. There is no substitute for solid mohog IMO.

[frank62]

The Gibson USA site states the Traditional has a "non chambered weight relieved" body. How is that for double talk. No matter to me they are sweet guitars.

[SgtThump]

...With the Traditional you still get the CTS pots and Bumblebee caps...

Did the Gibson guy tell you that the Traditional comes with CTS pots and Bumblebee reissue caps?

[VLJ]

^Thanks for the info. So then, the new Traditional with a flame top is 2200?

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Les-Paul-Standard-Traditional-Plus-Electric-Guitar?sku=519321

$2299 for the (Tradtional Plus) flamed top. $2189 for the (Traditional) non flamed top. I'm sure one can do better at GC, cash in hand.

[Rotten]

I just went to a place with about 10 R9s. They were all over 9.2 lbs. I'd say that premium relates exclusively to the price difference of real 1958s and 1959s. Gibson is banking on the fact that people will equate R9s as not only a fine instrument, but also as an investment. Who knows, someday they might be right.

[VLJ]

Sigh... The "Traditional" is not an R9 that's $2,200 cheaper...

Never said it was. Thing is, for being $3400 cheaper (not just $2200...$2299 vs $5699) it's pretty damn close. Same neck profile. Same finish. Same "AA" flamed maple top. Same electronics. Same hardware.

Differences?

-Classic '57's rather than BB I &II.
-"Swiss cheese" weight relief holes rather than 100% solid body.
-Different guitar cases.
-Gibson USA build vs Nashville Custom Shop build

Are you aware of any other differences?

Just admit that there's nothing anyone can say that will ever convince you that an R9 is worth $5,000+

Gladly. $5K+ for a guitar they otherwise sell for $3K (a V.O.S. '58 or '60, in the versions with a slightly less flamed top) is straight up larceny. Even P.T. Barnum would laugh at Gibson's chutzpah there...

[VLJ]

The Gibson USA site states the Traditional has a "non chambered weight relieved" body. How is that for double talk. No matter to me they are sweet guitars.

That's actually not double talk. There's a big difference between Gibson's chambered bodies and their weight relieved bodies. The chambered bodies are nearly hollow, like an ES336, while the weight relieved bodies only have wood removed in the form of some holes drilled into the body. By nearly all accounts the weight relieved "swiss cheese" LPs feel and sound identical to solid body LPs while the chambered body ones don't.

[VLJ]

Did the Gibson guy tell you that the Traditional comes with CTS pots and Bumblebee reissue caps?

Yes. MF also makes specific mention of the CTS pots and Bumblebee caps for the Traditional...as opposed to the circuit board mounted/modular 300K Bourns pots in the 2008 Standard.

[VLJ]

I just went to a place with about 10 R9s. They were all over 9.2 lbs. I'd say that premium relates exclusively to the price difference of real 1958s and 1959s. Gibson is banking on the fact that people will equate R9s as not only a fine instrument, but also as an investment. Who knows, someday they might be right.

Exactly.

In response to my question as to why the flamed top V.O.S. models cost $2100 more than the non flamed top V.O.S. models (when Gibson normally only charges $110 to $300 more for flamed tops on their non V.O.S. models) the Gibson guy told me that he recently looked up the current going rate for original '59s and that they're in the six figure range...with the first digit not necessarily even being a "1." He said that in light of this Gibson knows people will pay whatever Gibson asks for an authentic looking modern replica. He said the non flamed top models don't evoke the image of the original '58's, '59's and '60's so Gibson can't charge a crazy price for them the way they can for the flamed top versions.

"Thank god for vintage guitar guys," he said.

[SgtThump]

Yes. MF also makes specific mention of the CTS pots and Bumblebee caps for the Traditional...as opposed to the circuit board mounted/modular 300K Bourns pots in the 2008 Standard.

Where?

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Les-Paul-Standard-Traditional-Electric-Guitar?sku=519319

This is supposed to be like the Les Paul of the '80s and '90s, isn't it? They didn't come with Bumblebee reissue caps. I'm pretty sure they didn't come with CTS pots either.

[SgtThump]

Never said it was. Thing is, for being $3400 cheaper (not just $2200...$2299 vs $5699) it's pretty damn close. Same neck profile. Same finish. Same "AA" flamed maple top. Same electronics. Same hardware.

Differences?

-Classic '57's rather than BB I &II.
-"Swiss cheese" weight relief holes rather than 100% solid body.
-Different guitar cases.
-Gibson USA build vs Nashville Custom Shop build

Are you aware of any other differences?



Gladly. $5K+ for a guitar they otherwise sell for $3K (a V.O.S. '58 or '60, in the versions with a slightly less flamed top) is straight up larceny. Even P.T. Barnum would laugh at Gibson's chutzpah there...

There are alot more differences than the things you mentioned (and some of the things you mentioned are wrong.) For example, they don't have the same hardware at all or the same electronics (unless I read somewhere that the Traditional actually comes with CTS pots and BB RI caps.) The finish isn't the same. I highly doubt the neck profile is the same. Similar maybe, but probably not the same at all.

The Reissues have a solid ONE piece mahogany back. The woods on the Reissues are higher quality. The pickup rings, binding, tuners, ABR bridge, lightweight tailpiece, etc... all add to what the Reissue guitars are over their regular production counterparts.

Trust me... I've played Les Pauls for 20 years and was always happy with them. That was until I got an R8. It's worth the extra money to me and many other people. Don't knock anything until you get more experience with the guitars. Get your hands on them, do more research, then and decide.

Chris

[VLJ]

Where?

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Les-Paul-Standard-Traditional-Electric-Guitar?sku=519319

Right there in your link there's another link where they go into more detail about each new model, including the CTS pots, Bumblebee caps and lightweight aluminum ABR tailpiece for the Traditional.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document/gibson/les_paul_traditional?doc_id=103910


This is supposed to be like the Les Paul of the '80s and '90s, isn't it? They didn't come with Bumblebee reissue caps. I'm pretty sure they didn't come with CTS pots either.

No, it's supposed to be an affordable version of a V.O.S. '50s model, from the CTS pots and Bumblebee caps on down to the conspicuous and intentional inclusion of PAF p/ups (Classic '57s) instead of the Burstbuckers used in the V.O.S. and Gibson USA Standard models. It's supposed to have the '59's neck too, otherwise the only concession to weight/price point is the "swiss cheese" holes rather than the solid body of the V.O.S. models.

Also, no V.O.S. denim jacket or V.O.S. specific case. Just the usual alligator hide Gibson USA case.

[VLJ]

There are alot more differences than the things you mentioned (and some of the things you mentioned are wrong.) For example, they don't have the same hardware at all

How do you figure? Same vintage tulip tuners...same aluminum stop tail T.O.M./ABR bridge.

or the same electronics (unless I read somewhere that the Traditional actually comes with CTS pots and BB RI caps.)

Same pots and caps.

The finish isn't the same.

Both nitro, both buffed to look a bit aged. Where is there a significant difference in the finish?

I highly doubt the neck profile is the same. Similar maybe, but probably not the same at all.

According to the Gibson guy it's the same, taking into account the differences you'll see from one neck carve to the next. He said that not all '59 necks will be identical to each other and that many of the Traditional necks will be just as similar to one '59 neck as any two '59 necks might be similar to each other. Either way...supposed to be the same.

The Reissues have a solid ONE piece mahogany back. The woods on the Reissues are higher quality.

"Higher quality woods" is the very definition of "debatable." It's all supposed to be Honduran sourced mahagony these days, whether it's a V.O.S. or a Traditional. Bottom line there is do you really think you could tell one from the other, woods wise, in a blind sound test? Of course you couldn't. There's so much variance in woods even from one guitar to the next of the same model that there's no way you're going to be able to make any sweeping across the board generalizations as to "superior woods" in any one specific model.

Single piece body, vs a double piece? Or, in many cases, Gibson USA models do in fact arrive with single piece bodies. Still...$3400 extra, for...what??

The pickup rings, binding, tuners, ABR bridge, lightweight tailpiece, etc... all add to what the Reissue guitars are over their regular production counterparts.

And the Traditional has all those same things. Okay, I'm not sure if the p/up rings are the same but then neither are you and nobody is ever going to know or care anyway.

Trust me... I've played Les Pauls for 20 years and was always happy with them. That was until I got an R8. It's worth the extra money to me and many other people. Don't knock anything until you get more experience with the guitars. Get your hands on them, do more research, then and decide.

Chris

Specs are specs. I'm doing the research right now and what I'm finding are minute differences at best, none of which even begin to justify a more than doubling of the price. That price is strictly a function of nostalgia, and people's willingness to pay too much for something to get bragging rights to an image they long to achieve. There's nothing in the specific build or the specs of either guitar to justify any sort of a significant price difference, much less $5699 vs $2299. The single piece solid body vs a possible two piece "swiss cheese" weight relieved body is the only significant difference between the guitars. Some Traditionals will arrive with a single piece body too, at which point the only significant difference between the two guitars will be the weight relief holes of the Traditional. Good luck picking which body is which once the tops are glued on, the guitars are in your hands and they're plugged into an amp. They're going to weigh roughly the same and sound identical, other than the difference between Classic '57s and BB I's and II's...and many people prefer the Classic '57s anyway.

[XKnight]

Since you're still in research mode, you may want to look into the VOS Reissue long neck tenon versus whatever it is they are doing with the Traditional model.

The VOS and Traditonal both offer good LPs. I would strongly recommend you go play a bunch of each before deciding just based upon the specs. Also, a new VOS R7 can be bought for only a few hundred more than a Gold Top Traditional. Whether the price difference is worth it really depends on the individual guitar.

[SgtThump]

Hey VLJ, I see where MF says the Traditional model includes the CTS pots and BB RI caps. Thanks, I didn't know that.

As for the rest of it, ehhh, screw it. I give up.

[SgtThump]

Actually, that MF article says this exacty:

"It's for players who want up-to-date features and aren't concerned about historically accurate components such as CTS pots and bumblebee capacitors."

Is that saying that the Traditional does or doesn't have CTS pots and BB caps? Sounds to me like it's saying it doesn't.

[VLJ]

XKnight, you bring up a good point about the neck tenons. The 2008 Standard has a new crazy looking locking tenon, the longest in Gibson's history. Neither the V.O.S. models nor the Traditional have it. According to the Gibson guy the neck tenons on the V.O.S. models and the Traditional are both shorter and non locking and they're both about the same length.

Regardless, well, I've played a bazillion LPs and other set neck guitars with differing tenon lengths in the same model line and again I don't believe anybody is going to be able to tell one from the other once they're holding and playing the guitars. Case in point: The 2008 Standard supposedly has a superior tenon to any previous Gibson, even including their $8000K Historic LPs, and would any owner of one of those high priced LPs ever break down and admit that his guitar's shorter tenon makes for inferior tone or sustain vs the 2008 Standard?

HIGHLY doubtful.

Your other point about trying 'em all out remains an excellent piece of advice but again it's highly doubtful I'll be able to follow through on it as nobody around here ever seems to carry the R8s, 9s and 0s of the world. Maybe I'll eventually luck into finding a stray somewhere but we all know that there's so much variance in playability, build quality and tone from one guitar to the next that merely trying out one wall hanger R0 isn't going to provide me with anything conclusive that would pertain to all R0s. With these higher end Gibbies it's just not like it is with something like Mexi Strats, where yeah, you can literally play a dozen or so in one sitting and pick out your favorite...

[VLJ]

Actually, that MF article says this exacty:

"It's for players who want up-to-date features and aren't concerned about historically accurate components such as CTS pots and bumblebee capacitors."

Is that saying that the Traditional does or doesn't have CTS pots and BB caps? Sounds to me like it's saying it doesn't.

They're talking about the Standard there, not the Traditional.

[SgtThump]

http://www.whineandcheese.net/pics/debbie_downer.jpg

[SgtThump]

They're talking about the Standard there, not the Traditional.

Doh, I see that now.

[VLJ]

SgtThump, I just went back through everything I could find on MF and Gibson.com regarding the Traditional's pots and caps and there's no mention of exactly which pots and caps are used in the Traditional. The guy at Gibson told me today it uses CTS pots and Bumblebee caps, same as the V.O.S. models, but I can't find it in print anywhere now. Maybe the guy was wrong? He certainly didn't put me on hold and go check on it to be certain, like he did with some of my other questions. He just casually threw it out there, "Yeah, the Traditional uses CTS pots and Bumbleebee caps; the same as the V.O.S. models."

Now I'm not so sure I believe him. Since I can't find this in print anywhere and Gibson.com conspicuously mentions CTS pots and Bumblebee caps for the V.O.S. models and they don't mention it for the Traditional (at least not that I can locate now) you may in fact be correct. I'll keep looking into it...

[SgtThump]

SgtThump, I just went back through everything I could find on MF and Gibson.com regarding the Traditional's pots and caps and there's no mention of exactly which pots and caps are used in the Traditional. The guy at Gibson told me today it uses CTS pots and Bumblebee caps, same as the V.O.S. models, but I can't find it in print anywhere now. Maybe the guy was wrong? He certainly didn't put me on hold and go check on it to be certain, like he did with some of my other questions. He just casually threw it out there, "Yeah, the Traditional uses CTS pots and Bumbleebee caps; the same as the V.O.S. models."

Now I'm not so sure I believe him. Since I can't find this in print anywhere and Gibson.com conspicuously mentions CTS pots and Bumblebee caps for the V.O.S. models and they don't mention it for the Traditional (at least not that I can locate now) you may in fact be correct. I'll keep looking into it...

Hmmmmm... You'd think they'd only put those in the Reissues to help justify the higher price a bit more, which is why I said that. But that's an assumption on my part.

[XKnight]

XKnight, you bring up a good point about the neck tenons. The 2008 Standard has a new crazy looking locking tenon, the longest in Gibson's history. Neither the V.O.S. models nor the Traditional have it. According to the Gibson guy the neck tenons on the V.O.S. models and the Traditional are both shorter and non locking and they're both about the same length.



The Historic Reissues have a longer neck tenon than the previous Standards. I'm not sure about the neck tenon length on the Traditional since there was quite a bit of confusion and incorrect information being advertised when the Traditional first came out. I doubt the Traditional and the Historic have the same neck tenon length though since they are made in different factories to different standards. Many folks seem to be convinced that the long neck tenon in the Historic is superior. If nothing else, it would certainly seem to be stronger and more stable than a shorter tenon.

The entire debate over regular production line versus Custom Shop is an almost daily occurrence on TGP. It's like comparing a Ford to a Lincoln or a Toyota to a Lexus. Many of the parts are the same or similar, but in the end certain folks are willing to pay more for a product that they perceive to be better. As long as they can afford the Lincoln or Lexus and are happy with it, then that's really all that matters.

[VLJ]

SgtThump, the funny thing there is even if the Traditional turns out to not have 'em then swapping in some CTS pots and Bumblebee caps would run me, what, $50 or so? Less than $100, right? I haven't priced Bumblebee caps lately but I know CTS pots don't cost much and I can't imagine those caps could cost all that much either...

XKnight, yeah, I know what you're saying aboiut the Ford-Toyota/Lincoln-Lexus thing but at least there you're also usually getting a significant upgrade in features and amenities in your higher priced Lincoln-Lexus. You're also not seeing a price increase of 150%, at least not for comparable models that are somewhat comparably equipped.

[Shnook]

Found a pic of the Traditional control panel.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q196/Noitpure/PICT0135.jpg

[Shnook]

SgtThump, the funny thing there is even if the Traditional turns out to not have 'em then swapping in some CTS pots and Bumblebee caps would run me, what, $50 or so? Less than $100, right? I haven't priced Bumblebee caps lately but I know CTS pots don't cost much and I can't imagine those caps could cost all that much either...

XKnight, yeah, I know what you're saying aboiut the Ford-Toyota/Lincoln-Lexus thing but at least there you're also usually getting a significant upgrade in features and amenities in your higher priced Lincoln-Lexus. You're also not seeing a price increase of 150%, at least not for comparable models that are somewhat comparably equipped.

Real Bumble Bee caps will cost you over $100 for the caps alone.

[XKnight]

XKnight, yeah, I know what you're saying aboiut the Ford-Toyota/Lincoln-Lexus thing but at least there you're also usually getting a significant upgrade in features and amenities in your higher priced Lincoln-Lexus. You're also not seeing a price increase of 150%, at least not for comparable models that are somewhat comparably equipped.

Many folks believe that they are getting a significant upgrade for the money. Again, perceived value and willingness to spend the cash is what it's all about. Your percentages are a bit skewed. I can provide you with numbers that will be within a few hundred dollars for a Traditional versus a Historic. A smart shopper can also buy a new Historic for less money than a new Standard. Things are not always what they appear to be. You just have to know where to look.

[VLJ]

I can provide you with numbers that will be within a few hundred dollars for a Traditional versus a Historic. A smart shopper can also buy a new Historic for less money than a new Standard. Things are not always what they appear to be. You just have to know where to look.

Oh really? You can direct us to where we can buy a new $5699 R9 for less than a new $2599 Standard?

I'm all ears. Or eyes, in this case.

[XKnight]

Oh really? You can direct us to where we can buy a new $5699 R9 for less than a new $2599 Standard?

I'm all ears. Or eyes, in this case.

No, but there are plenty of smaller Gibson dealers that will be glad to sell you a new R7 or R8 for less than $2599. I'm not one of the folks willing to pay $2K more for a Flame top. However, some people gladly do so and I don't try to convince them otherwise. It's there money to spend as they wish and if it makes them happy then so be it.

[SgtThump]

Okay, so the Traditional doesn't have CTS pots or BB Reissue caps. That's good to know and exactly what I suspected.

I get ya VLJ. I really do understand what you're saying... There's really no way I'd go for the $5,500 R9 just for the flametop (or any other reason.) That's too much to me to spend on a guitar period no matter what.

But as I said earlier, I've owned several Les Pauls and consider myself a "Les Paul guy" (meaning that it's my favorite guitar) and I'm telling ya that the different between my old Standards and Customs and my R8 is noticeable. Very noticeable. So much noticeable that I wish I would've just forked over the $2,500 or so years ago and bought an R8 in the first place.

It's my opinion that there are no other guitars in this world (that I've heard) that can compete with the Les Paul Reissue line.

PS - I don't have a link, but a while back on the Les Paul Forum, someone cut the plastic outer pieces off a BB Reissue cap and revealed a regular 'ole production cap underneath. It appears they picked a modern production cap and simply molded plastic around them to make them look like the old BB caps. They're still good, though.

[ajchance]

I'll throw my .02 in the ring: I, too consider myself an LP guy - that's been the holy grail for me since I was a kid. I've been fortunate to own several over the past few years and have a general idea of what I like. I've tried everything from the Epiphone standard to their Elite model and on up the Gibson line - studio, studio with P90's, couple of standards, '74 custom, '75 custom, '79 25/50 anniversary, supreme, etc. I recently picked up an R8 and was immediately struck with the resonance this guitar has playing unplugged. When you do amplify it, it's articulate and maintains that unplugged quality. I still have the '74 custom and find it to be a comfortable worn-in great player, but the R8 is heads and tails above the rest of the bunch I've worked through. I may have an exceptionally good R8, but in my limited experience, the modest investment in the '58 reissue has been worth it. (I purposely didn't play R9s because I can't justify that kind of money!)

[XKnight]

.... R8 is heads and tails above the rest of the bunch I've worked through. I may have an exceptionally good R8, but in my limited experience, the modest investment in the '58 reissue has been worth it.

Most R8s are exceptional. It's finding a bad one that is tough. ;)

[dankayaker]

I recently picked up an R8 and was immediately struck with the resonance this guitar has playing unplugged. When you do amplify it, it's articulate and maintains that unplugged quality.



You got a winner my friend !

[VLJ]

SgtThumper, I just called Gibson again to see if I could get a definitive answer on the Traditional's pots and caps. As I suspected the guy I spoke to yesterday at Gibson was just talking off the top of his head and he didn't know for certain what he was talking about there as it turns out the Traditional uses Gibson USA 300K linear taper volume pots and 500K audio pots. It uses "no name" caps.

Point being...definitely not CTS pots and Bumblebee caps. So, that's that.

Man, what I really want is a V.O.S. without a pickguard, including no holes from where the pickguard was removed. Crap. I don't really care about the figured top but I have a feeling the '58's neck is too big for my tastes. I'd be okay with the '60's neck but I'd prefer the '59's, which isn't even offered in a less expensive plain top model. Gah.

I always run into this. As big a company as Gibson is, they still don't offer an LP spec'd the way I want it. Just gimme a solid body LP with no pickguard...and Classic '57s! Same deal with Fender. Fender offers a bazillion Strats but not a single one that has both a hard tail and a contoured neck heel; nevermind a 12" (or even flatter) radius, noiseless p/ups, a contoured neck heel and a hardtail.

[Johnnytone]

Aren't those weights pretty darn high for just the Les Paul backs? Heck, the entire guitar is close the weights listed on that sign, right?

Those weights are for the body blanks before they are cut and carved.

[Jagsound]

:agree

[Johnnytone]

Great thread so far. I have a few questions of my own and rather than start a new thread can I just add in to this one?

I have a 1998 R8. It has a nicely figured top and is quite a bit lighter in weight than my other Les Paul. Some things I was wondering:

1) Does "V.O.S" apply only to the recent reissues or is mine a V.O.S. too? (In fact, what does VOS mean?)

"Vintage Original Spec" it is fairly recent.

2) Why does mine, from 1998, have a figured top when the newer R8's don't?

The figured and flametops are reserved for the 59 reissues now.

3) Is any 1958 reissue called an R8?

If it came out of the Custom shop 1993 or later

4) What's different about the new R8s versus mine from 1998, other than they stopped putting figured tops on them?

There are a lot of changes since 98. Most notable are body shape (especially the horn area), headstock shape, pickup placement, pickups, etc.

5) Any knowledgable Les Paul person care to offer an opinion as to the ideal weight for a Les Paul as far as correlating with best tone.

8.75. Seriously

6) I'm also curious if anyone could explain how to correlate the sound of a Les Paul as played acoustically with how it will sound plugged in? I'll generally grab guitars off the rack and play them for a minute and hardly ever plug one in unmless I really like it. But I may be missing out on a good sounding one this way.

That's a whole can of worms in itself. Some feel the pickup provides all the sound, while others say it is the wood. I think it's the wood.

7) Are there any known good or bad years for the R8s?

Just like every other guitar. there are good ones and band ones from every year

thanks
-FB

Hope this helps. Or starts some fights.:drool

[Jagsound]

1) Does "V.O.S" apply only to the recent reissues or is mine a V.O.S. too? (In fact, what does VOS mean?)

In essence yours is a VOS without the last part of the VOS process which is some sort of aged finish sprayed on it. VOS = Vintage Original Spec, and it is just a marketing term used to replace "Historic" starting in 2006. Funnily enough you can get VOS's with a gloss finish for $300 more!

2) Why does mine, from 1998, have a figured top when the newer R8's don't?

Don't know but most of the early historics have flame - mine is a 2001 R8 and it has a fair bit of flame as well. Some of the R9s of that time had extreme flame. It's probably just a fashion thing that caught on because the originals were not super flamey.

3) Is any 1958 reissue called an R8?

R8 actually stands for 58 Replica and can only be used on a 1958 LP reissue guitar from the Custom shop, a Gibson USA reissue can not be called an R8, but I don't think they do any anyway (only one that comes to mind is the 1961 SG Reissue and the Slash LP).

4) What's different about the new R8s versus mine from 1998, other than they stopped putting figured tops on them?

The newer ones - post 2003 approx, are more historically accurate, as they have the vintage truss rod route, right shaped inlays, light weight tail piece, CTS pots, and fake Bumblebees. Basically stuff that doesn't matter at all (unless you want an exact replica), and some of which could easily be changed on your one.

5) Any knowledgable Les Paul person care to offer an opinion as to the ideal weight for a Les Paul as far as correlating with best tone.

Impossible! It's the whole guitar that makes the tone, but many believe that approx 9 lbs is about the maximum for the best tone. However most of these opinions are heavily based on trying to achieve a very vintage sound, and that may not be what you're after.

7) Are there any known good or bad years for the R8s?

No, but there are bad guitars in any year, not many though. The early ones are starting to rise in value, with the 59s leading (as usual), but I would say the early R0's are the most valuable as it is believed that only about 20 were made in 95, and it didn't go much over 150 in any year once they got going on them (could be higher now). Around 1000 R9 and R8 models were made in some years.

Check this for some great info:
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/historic-reissues/3970-les-paul-historic-data-chronicles.html

[SgtThump]

Those weights are for the body blanks before they are cut and carved.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, that makes sense. I didn't even think of that. Thanks.

[SgtThump]

SgtThumper, I just called Gibson again to see if I could get a definitive answer on the Traditional's pots and caps. As I suspected the guy I spoke to yesterday at Gibson was just talking off the top of his head and he didn't know for certain what he was talking about there as it turns out the Traditional uses Gibson USA 300K linear taper volume pots and 500K audio pots. It uses "no name" caps.

Point being...definitely not CTS pots and Bumblebee caps. So, that's that.

Man, what I really want is a V.O.S. without a pickguard, including no holes from where the pickguard was removed. Crap. I don't really care about the figured top but I have a feeling the '58's neck is too big for my tastes. I'd be okay with the '60's neck but I'd prefer the '59's, which isn't even offered in a less expensive plain top model. Gah.

I always run into this. As big a company as Gibson is, they still don't offer an LP spec'd the way I want it. Just gimme a solid body LP with no pickguard...and Classic '57s! Same deal with Fender. Fender offers a bazillion Strats but not a single one that has both a hard tail and a contoured neck heel; nevermind a 12" (or even flatter) radius, noiseless p/ups, a contoured neck heel and a hardtail.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've been reading good reviews about both the new "Traditional" and "2008 Standard" models. Alot of good reviews, actually. Chambering/swiss cheese or not, they are worth at least checking out if at all possible.

Chris

[VLJ]

2) Why does mine, from 1998, have a figured top when the newer R8's don't?

The figured and flametops are reserved for the 59 reissues now.


Not entirely correct. The '60 is available with either a plain top or a much more expensive figured top...

Plain top... http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Custom-Shop-1960-Les-Paul-Vos-Plain-Top-Aged-Hardware?sku=514207

Figured top... http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Custom-Shop-1960-Les-Paul-Standard-VOS-Electric-Guitar-?sku=517985

I wanna say the '58 is also offered in both versions. The difference is the '59 is ONLY available with a figured top. No plain top '59s.

One other oddball question though: What's the difference between a Custom V.O.S. model and a Custom Reissue model? MF lists both, with the Reissue always being a couple/few hundred more than the V.O.S. version.

[SgtThump]

[/color]

Not entirely correct. The '58 and '60 are both also available with figured tops. The difference is the '59 is ONLY available with a figured top while the '58 and '60 are offered in both plain top and the $2K+ more expensive figured top version.

Really? (here we go again - lol...) I thought:

- R8 is plaintop only
- R9 is flametop only
- G0 is plaintop only (Guitar Center '60s Standard)
- R0 is flametop only

[VLJ]

SgtThumper, see above, to my edited post. The '60 is definitely available in either version and I'm almost positive I've also seen the '58 offered in both versions.

Btw, what's a "G0" model, and how does it differ from an R0 model?

[XKnight]

Btw, what's a "G0" model, and how does it differ from an R0 model?

G0 is a Plain top RO that is made specifically for Guitar Center and its affiliates. It sells new for about $3000.

[SgtThump]

SgtThumper, see above, to my edited post. The '60 is definitely available in either version and I'm almost positive I've also seen the '58 offered in both versions.

Btw, what's a "G0" model, and how does it differ from an R0 model?

As Xnight said, it's the 60s Reissue model with a plain top made specifically for Guitar Center/Musicians Friend. I believe that's what you linked to above.

I compared a couple of G0's and R8's and found them to be the same guitar with a different neck shape. Also, the G0's had the "no name" caps and "Gibson" pots, instead of the BB RIs and CTS pots. I went with an R8, because it sounded slightly better to me. Could be from the thicker neck or the upgraded electronics (or both.) But other than that, both guitars appeared to be identical.

I think the G0's now come with CTS pots and BB RI caps.

[VLJ]

Well, both guitars I linked above are labeled as V.O.S. models so they automatically include CTS pots and Bumblebee caps.

Ya' know, they oughtta just simplify this crap and just offer one freaking Gibson USA LP and one freaking V.O.S. LP! LOL!! Oh, and the pickguards should always be included in the case. We can always add it on ourselves if we want it on there.

[VLJ]

SgtThumper, have you played a '59 neck and a '60's neck too? Just wondering how much heftier your '58 neck is compared to those other two necks. The guy at Gibson made it sound like the difference between the '58 and '59 necks is just as great as the difference between a normal "slim taper '60s" neck and the much fatter "'50s" neck used on the previous model year Gibson USA Standards. If that's the case then yeah, the '58 neck would be too fat for me.

Maybe the guy was exaggerating though, is what I'm wondering...

[SgtThump]

SgtThumper, have you played a '59 neck and a '60's neck too? Just wondering how much heftier your '58 neck is compared to those other two necks. The guy at Gibson made it sound like the difference between the '58 and '59 necks is just as great as the difference between a normal "slim taper '60s" neck and the much fatter "'50s" neck used on the previous model year Gibson USA Standards. If that's the case then yeah, the '58 neck would be too fat for me.

Maybe the guy was exaggerating though, is what I'm wondering...

I've never played a '59 Reissue (too scared to touch a guitar that expensive! LOL!!!) But yeah, I've compared the G0 and R8. The difference in the size of the neck is very noticeable. The R8 neck is really big and "clubby." I let the other guitar player in my last band try it in the studio and he couldn't take it. He gave it back after 20 seconds and said it was waaaaaaaaay too different for him.

He had LP Standards with the '60s neck, not an actual VOS. But yeah, there's a big difference in the sized. Also, the R8 neck is quite a bit fatter than even the regular LP Standard with the '50s neck.

[VLJ]

Yeah, the regular LP Standard with the '50s neck is supposed to have the same neck profile as a '59. So, if the '58 neck is noticeably chunkier than the regular 50's neck on the older Standards then it's probably too chunky for me, just like the guy said.

Thanks.

[SgtThump]

Yeah, the regular LP Standard with the '50s neck is supposed to have the same neck profile as a '59. So, if the '58 neck is noticeably chunkier than the regular 50's neck on the older Standards then it's probably too chunky for me, just like the guy said.

Thanks.

Yeah, it's noticeably bigger. Like alot bigger in my opinion.

[Bluedawg]

My turn to add a few things

Great thread so far. I have a few questions of my own and rather than start a new thread can I just add in to this one?

I have a 1998 R8. It has a nicely figured top and is quite a bit lighter in weight than my other Les Paul. Some things I was wondering:

thanks
-FB

1) Does "V.O.S" apply only to the recent reissues or is mine a V.O.S. too? (In fact, what does VOS mean?)

I'll just add that since the term "VOS" started in 2006 I hesitate to use it for previous versions of the Historic LPS, but what do I know.

2) Why does mine, from 1998, have a figured top when the newer R8's don't?

Since 2003 the R8s were limited to plain tops. The prices were lowered that year as well. The prices of R9s went down this year as well!

Some R8s with figured tops have been made recently in limited quantities, including some chambered R8s (AKA Cloud 9s) that came out last year.

3) Is any 1958 reissue called an R8?

Yup

4) What's different about the new R8s versus mine from 1998, other than they stopped putting figured tops on them?


Lots of little nit-picky changes. Each year or three Gibson comes out with a new version of their Historic LPs that is more "accurate" and "true" to the originals. Much of this is marketing, but there is some serious response to feedback from customers, especially those who have actually spent a great deal of time with the originals.

But even the originals were all over the place when it comes to detailed specs such as neck sizes and pickup winds.

5) Any knowledgable Les Paul person care to offer an opinion as to the ideal weight for a Les Paul as far as correlating with best tone.

Totally subjective IMHO

6) I'm also curious if anyone could explain how to correlate the sound of a Les Paul as played acoustically with how it will sound plugged in? I'll generally grab guitars off the rack and play them for a minute and hardly ever plug one in unmless I really like it. But I may be missing out on a good sounding one this way.

Some people swear by the method of judging a solid body electric by its acoustic sound, but not me.

If it sounds good through an amp .... It sounds good.


7) Are there any known good or bad years for the R8s?

As said before, there are good and bad from every year ....

But here are some highlights ......

2003 - Serial numbers 8 3001 to 8 3256 have Brazilian Rosewood fretboards. These are highly sought after and usually cost another grand or two.

Before 2003 - These have figured maple tops. They're going to be worth a little more than the plain tops.

1999 - Don't ask me why, but the Historics from 1999 seem to be highly regarded. Some folks thought the 2007s were some of the best as well.

Since 2004 you can also get chambered versions of the Historic LPs. Briefly called Cloud 9s, but the official name is "chambered." I have a 2004 chambered R8, also known as a CR8. They're every nice.


In general most folks who try them prefer the Historics, but you can still find some excellent LPs from the other models.

And I like the chunky necks :D
:BEER

[benjisaynomore]

I have an Epi. Les Paul Custom. I upgraded the pickups to a nice PAF setup. Replaced the pots/wiring with CTS industry standard stuff, & had the frets dressed.

I have picked up many of les pauls off the shelf of GC (mostly standards) and hands down (HANDS DOWN) prefer my Epi. to them all.

Is there really a distinguishable difference between my $649.99 Epi. with $250 of upgrades and a VOS $3,000 Les Paul???

Help a fellow consumer out...

Anyone have any comments/can empathize with me here? Let me know...

[Mondoslug]

Anyone have any comments/can empathize with me here? Let me know...
If you trick out an Epi LP...there's a chance you're still going to desire a Gibson Les Paul down the road - irregardless of how the Epi plays & sounds.

[benjisaynomore]

Yes but is that because of the hype or because of something it's missing?

[XKnight]

Yes but is that because of the hype or because of something it's missing?

Bring your Epi with you to a shop that sells Gibson Custom Shop guitars and do your own comparison. That's the only way you'll be able to determine the answer for yourself.

[FeloniousBishop]

Hope this helps. Or starts some fights.:drool

Thanks for that reply Johhnytone


5) Any knowledgable Les Paul person care to offer an opinion as to the ideal weight for a Les Paul as far as correlating with best tone.

8.75. Seriously


That's cool, mine weighs 8 lbs 14 oz.

[FeloniousBishop]

Around 1000 R9 and R8 models were made in some years.

Check this for some great info:
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/historic-reissues/3970-les-paul-historic-data-chronicles.html

Those are really low production numbers. That means Gibson are only making a couple of million dollars on the whole thing max each year.

Thanks for the reply Jagsound

[Bluedawg]

Anyone have any comments/can empathize with me here? Let me know...


I suspect that you will actually find a few Epiphones that can hang with a "real" Gibson LP if you go looking for them.

but I'd be surprised if you can find more than a few.

From my experience, after you spend some time with an LP standard or a Historic VOS LP most Epiphones are just not going to do it for you.

YMMV

:banana

[FeloniousBishop]

Some people swear by the method of judging a solid body electric by its acoustic sound, but not me.

If it sounds good through an amp .... It sounds good.



I bet there are some known methods though that someone knows.



And I like the chunky necks :D
:BEER

Yeah, although the '58 neck seems big at first touch, when I play another guitar afterwards the other guitar neck seems too small.

thanks for the reply Bluedawg

[benjisaynomore]

I suspect that you will actually find a few Epiphones that can hang with a "real" Gibson LP if you go looking for them.

but I'd be surprised if you can find more than a few.

From my experience, after you spend some time with an LP standard or a Historic VOS LP most Epiphones are just not going to do it for you.

YMMV

:banana

So is it a feel/nostalgia thing? What is the difference? Tonally they sound the same to me...at least the one's i've a/b'd at GC.

[Donnie B.]

My Wildwood R9 with a beautiful 1 piece mahogany back, long neck tenon, killer top, and weighs exactly 8.65 pounds.
The pickguard came uninstalled.

http://donniebs.ipower.com//pics/r9lp1.JPG

[Bluedawg]

So is it a feel/nostalgia thing? What is the difference? Tonally they sound the same to me...at least the one's i've a/b'd at GC.

I'm sure that nostalgia plays a part in it, especially on some subconscious level.

Feel IMHO is a very important aspect of what makes a great guitar. Most Korean and Japanese guitars just don't feel the same to me as the US made Gibsons. Maybe it's the finish. Maybe it's the quality of the wood. Maybe its my imagination. Is it worth the extra money to have the feel of a US guitar? Only you can decide that.

I hear a tonal difference, but it's subtle and you may not hear it in a noisy GC. I think the tonal improvement in the Gibson Historics is significant over a Korean or Japanese guitar. That tonal improvement is hard to describe IMHO. It's like trying to describe how something tastes.

If you can't hear the difference between them, just think of all the money you can save. ;)

One way to approach this is to keep your eyes out for a good deal on a used US made Gibson, preferably a Historic. Play it for a few months or even a few years. If you still think the Epiphone is just as good, dump the more expensive Gibson. You can't go wrong buying a used Gibson Les Paul if you shop carefully. You won't have any trouble getting your money back if you decide to sell, especially after a couple of years.

Every player has to work this out for themselves, but that's part of the fun.

Good Luck

:banana

[Joe_Steeler]

That is a sweet looking axe.

My Wildwood R9 with a beautiful 1 piece mahogany back, long neck tenon, killer top, and weighs exactly 8.65 pounds.
The pickguard came uninstalled.

http://donniebs.ipower.com//pics/r9lp1.JPG