Drums?

[Chiba]

Do any of you Pro Tools users (uh...Mac OS9) have any way to record or play drums into your songs that don't require an actual live drummer?

I'm stuck - I had to ditch my electronic kit due to space restraints but I need drums.

Somebody help me :)

--chiba

[MichaelK]

MIDI drums. But I thought you knew that... are you asking something I'm not understanding?

[LSchefman]

You could always cut and paste loops also (or trigger them from something like Mach 5).

[chad c]

I use the joey kramer drum loops. If you set up your session to the right tempo and put Pro Tools in Grid Mode you can easily cut and paste.

[Chiba]

MIDI, yeah - that works, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the MIDI stuff with PT. The manuals don't seem to help much - either they're not answering the questions I have OR (more likely) I simply don't understand the technical data I'm reading.

FWIW, I'm running PT LE 5.2.1 with the Digi001 breakout box on an OS 9 system w/512MB of RAM.

The way I've been doing it til now is to have my drum module (Alesis D4) hooked up through the MIDI ports of my 001 box (and also inputs 3-6), and triggering the module with a live drummer. It works fine that way, but I don't have the space for a kit any more.

I got a set of Discrete Drums cd's, but I'm slowly driving myself insane trying to figure out how to change the speed of the loops. It seems as if the songs I write all sound like ripe crap at the speeds they chose to execute their loops at.

I've tried triggering my D4 with my MIDI controller (Roland A30, I think - it's an 88-key 'board) but PT/OMS will only recognize one or the other of the devices - not both at the same time. If I hook up the keyboard directly to the D4, though, it works just fine. Naturally.

I got a copy of Battery and can't seem to get that to work. I mean, it works just fine when I run it standalone - I can import samples, save kits and so on, but I can NOT figure out how to get it to work in Pro Tools. The manual that comes with Battery, despite being in 4 languages, sucks onions.

I tell you, I'm right on the verge of setting the whole stack of gear on fire. I've never had this much trouble doing anything recording-wise in my entire life.

--chiba

[MichaelK]

>> The manuals don't seem to help much - either they're not answering the questions I have OR (more likely) I simply don't understand the technical data I'm reading.

I'm guessing the latter because if you're not sure, that means you don't understand.

I hate to say it, but MIDI has a steep learning curve and there's no way around doing the homework. My suggestion is first to read a book called "The MIDI Companion" by Jeffrey Rona. It's an easy read for the novice but very thorough. Try musicbooks.com if Amazon doesn't have it.

>> 512MB of RAM.

I highly recommend maxing out your memory slots.

>> (Alesis D4) hooked up through the MIDI ports of my 001 box (and also inputs 3-6)

Keep that. Create a new MIDI track, designate the D4 as the playback device, and experiment with creating and playing back patterns.

>> I got a set of Discrete Drums cd's, but I'm slowly driving myself insane trying to figure out how to change the speed of the loops.

Forget that. ProTools is not a looping program. You'll drive yourself nuts.

>> I've tried triggering my D4 with my MIDI controller (Roland A30, I think - it's an 88-key 'board) but PT/OMS will only recognize one or the other of the devices - not both at the same time. If I hook up the keyboard directly to the D4, though, it works just fine.

Go to "OMS Studio Setup" and designate both devices as controllers. If you want them all to work at the same time, you may need a MIDI I/O box like a MOTU MIDI Express or whatever the latest is.

>> I got a copy of Battery and can't seem to get that to work. I mean, it works just fine when I run it standalone - I can import samples, save kits and so on, but I can NOT figure out how to get it to work in Pro Tools.

Maybe you didn't get the RTAS version...? It might work via Direct Connect. If there's nothing in the manual about either one, you might have bought the wrong version.

[cybership]

Hey Chiba,
I posted a reply to you MIDI question over at the DUC. After reading this I think the problem may be that you are trying to get OMS to recognize your MIDI devices automatically. It's been a while since I've done an OMS set up but I think the owners manual tells you that OMS will automatically recognize your MIDI devices. The fact is it probably will not. You need to do a new OMS set up manually. It's not difficult to do. I would suggest that you keep it simple. Start with no more than two MIDI instruments. Say your controller and your drum module. See if you can get these working and gradually add the others. In the OMS pull down menu you can test you configuration as you go. If you are daisy chaining several MIDI devices you may run into trouble and need a larger third party MIDI I/O.

Robert

[chad c]

If you use the tab to transient features and the TCE tool in Pro Tools, loops become fairly easy. You can read up on it on past issues of Digizine and Disk, both are Digidesigns site. Though since you are on Os 9 the TCE tool isnt there like in 6 or later but you can audiosuite the tempo change. Ive never done any midi drumming so I cant't help you out that aspect but best of luck to you either way.:dude

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by chad c
If you use the tab to transient features and the TCE tool in Pro Tools, loops become fairly easy.
I wouldn't call it "easy" to line up a stereo drum track that way, what with cymbal crashes and bleed making for some wierd gaps and collisions. I prefer to do that with live multi-tracked drums, but here we have a guy who's already just using a MIDI module.

[Chiba]

Mike & Cyber - thanks, I'll check out doing just exactly those things.

You're right, I was relying on OMS to do the dirty work - it looks as if I need to get a bit more hands-on.

One thing I know for sure - I have always thought any MIDI chain could only have ONE controller. Perhaps that's wherein my problem lies...

--chiba

[LSchefman]

Not that I would suggest anyone spend more money, but digital performer is made to record and do midi, and it does more tricks. Such as these for drums...

You can create drum tracks and "paint in" the midi parts...no need to even use a controller.

If you record a drum loop, you can alter its tempo in DP with the "adjust soundbites to tempo" feature. Works great for drums. I do it all the time.

Looping is EZ.

[Chiba]

Les, I checked out the DP info and looked at a couple of websites for DP as well - looks intriguing. At $400 for the competitive upgrade, though, it's a bit out of my price range right now. But I'll keep it in mind.

What's its compatibility with PT? I stay on the ProTools system because I know it and the 2 fellas I collaborate with the most are using it, so it makes things easy for swapping tracks for us all to be on the same system.

--chiba

[MichaelK]

JMO, but from what you're telling me, and with your limited MIDI experience, I think you'd be opening a can of worms. Don't get me wrong, DP is a fantastic tool for MIDI composers, but that ain't you. Also, DP sessions cannot be opened in ProTools nor vice versa, so your collaborations will be more difficult. You can import the individual audio files, but your edits, automation, plugs etc. will be gone.

ProTools can do both of those things Les mentioned. I didn't mention them because...

(1) "Painting" the MIDI track (step entry with a mouse, really) is much slower than tapping out the rhythm on a controller, which you said you like to do. Plus you don't get the "feel" from the velocity changes your fingers make naturally. But sure, you can do it that way if you'd rather. I do that sometimes for ride patterns, tom thumps or percussion hits.

(2) Time compression/expansion sometimes does wierd things to drum loops because of the attacks and decays. Compressing (speeding it up) usually works better than slowing it down, which can make a loop lose crispness and punch. It depends on the loop and how drastically you're shifting it. And if your session is not already locked to a tempo grid, this whole process could be frustrating to the point of impossible.

There is a time compression/expansion plug-in in your AudioSuite menu. There are third party plugs that do a better job, IMO.

You already have a MIDI drum module, two controllers, Battery and PT. You don't need anything more. You just have to learn how to get up and running.

[chad c]

"(2) Time compression/expansion sometimes does wierd things to drum loops because of the attacks and decays. Compressing (speeding it up) usually works better than slowing it down, which can make a loop lose crispness and punch. It depends on the loop and how drastically you're shifting it. And if your session is not already locked to a tempo grid, this whole process could be frustrating to the point of impossible. "

I couldnt agree with this more. I've noticed if I expand at all, even 1 BPM the drums really lose something, where as I've been speeding it up 5 BPM and it still seems to retain its characteristics.

[Chiba]

Well I spent about 4 of the most useless, most frustrating hours of my life in my studio last night patching MIDI cables around in various configurations and running the OMS setup about 957 times.

I'm now to the point where I can trigger my drum module with my keyboard and get the AUDIO into Pro Tools. Still can't get the MIDI signal to go through to PT - BUT! both the drum module AND the keyboard are in the MIDI chain with the 001 box so I know the signal's at least making the second jump...here's how I have the MIDI connections:

001 Out --> Controller In --> Controller Out --> Drum Mod In --> Drum Mod Out --> 001 In

One thing I can't figure out is how to tell my controller what channel to broadcast on, so I had to set my D4 to "omni", which then causes it to listen on all MIDI channels. I dug around looking for a pdf of the manual online, but all I could find was a "Quickstart" on a British site. It'd be just my luck to buy an old/discontinued controller without instructions, wouldn't it? Of course, I've had the thing for 2 years already :)

Sigh.

I did, however, order another 512MB of RAM, which will up my computer to its max of 1GB. I'll have that in hand tomorrow (o/n shipping was only an additional $5, even with tax the cost is still under $200).

--chiba

[sws1]

Drumtrax (software) can be used for midi drum sequences, played by a human. Tons of styles, fills, etc.

Route MIDI to some sort of sampler.

Works great for me.

[Scott Peterson]

www.drumoverdubs.com

Skip the mickey mouse midi and loops. As a completely reformed former loops junky, nothing on earth touches what a real drummer in a real studio can do. A real *wicked* good talented drummer too. Brain kicks serious booty on the kit.

I have been working with him on my next project; and will never go back to loops except to do specific things in tunes. Trust me on this and talk to him.

And his prices are nothing for what you get; his time, groove and feel - not to mention his ear and touch are utterly A list stuff.

Tell him I sent you too.

[Chiba]

I may do that Scott, thanks for the info. Since I'm primarily concerned about my wife's music at this point (recording wise) I want everything to be 100% because we may not have time to work on her stuff again for ... a while :)

Having said that, I got the other 512MB of RAM into my Mac and though I haven't had much time to fark around with it (ill all weekend) I'm looking forward to seeing how it affects my PT stuff.

--chiba

[Chiba]

After talking to Scott's guy and to my co-producer on my wife's album, I decided to go with a live drummer...but a different one. I'm looking at having drums for 8 to 10 songs and that put Scott's guy out of my price range, though I have to agree with Scott that his rates are entirely reasonable.

So once I finish up the rough demos, I'll be sending them off to the drummer my co-producer knows, and I'll be heading down to his studio in mid-August to record the drums, bass, and hopefully some guitar in 4-5 days' worth of sessions. Good thing the guys that run the studio owe me money, eh?

--chiba