Speak up Logic haters - if you exist

[kmgiants]

It's time to update my painfully old/slow home recording rig. I'd been planning on the mbox 2 Pro w/ Protools LE, but have been reading "nothin' but love" comments all over this board and elsewhere for the Logic + Apogee Duet combo. If I had to buy right now, I'm leaning toward Logic+Duet. But....

I've been using an old 6.x version of Protools for years, and know it well enough for my mostly basic needs. I'm sure there'd be a learning curve going to the latest version, but not nearly as steep as learning Logic, which would be brand new to me. It seems there's universal acclaim for the sound quality of the Duet. Cost is a wash if I stick w/ Logic Express rather than Studio, which I think would be plenty for me.

I will likely need to be able to import and export to/from ProTools for working with studio(s) - but from looking at the Logic manual, that doesn't sound like a problem (right?).

I don't do anything much w/ midi, beats, etc. though it might be fun to have the capability that Logic would give me. And I was surprised to see what looks like a rather robust notation portion of the program, which would be great for generating charts - something I don't currently have a tool for.

I know the Protools vs. Logic (vs. other DAWs) discussion comes up over and over, but I just haven't seen much that's negative/critical about the new Logic. So - for those of you with complaints - particularly Protools users, bring 'em on! I want to hear what your dealbreakers and pet peeves are about the Logic software. Or is it true that it's just darn near perfect? :)

[Judson]

**** Apogee. Its for hobbyists unless you drop 3k and still need a shit ton of other stuff.

Logic holds its own. It is just nuts what you can do compared to others..

[LSchefman]

>>**** Apogee. Its for hobbyists unless you drop 3k and still need a shit ton of other stuff.<<

I am not an apogee guy, but I do know several guys doing real-deal film and TV work with these "hobbyist" apogee rigs.

Just an FYI, not to start an argument. This is just my personal experience in the scoring business I've been in for 20 years or so.

I've used MOTU interfaces - not particularly impressive, right? - for all of my TV, commercial and scoring work for many years. I know many others who do as well.

In my humble opinion, while there certainly are differences between converters, I find that working pros can do a great job on whatever's in the rack, and are far less concerned about this so-called "hobbyist" label than most hobbyists.

Agree on Logic, it's great.

[pbradt]

I'm a PT guy. I've thought about switching but when I see the level of investment required, it's like, "naah, I'll stick with PT. I mostly do one-man-band song demos (the RATD record notwithstanding) and I can't justify the expense. I sold the rig we made the record on (a G4 with an 001) and if I get into another record project, I'll get an 002 Rack and use it with my MBP.

[jdogjent]

All the pro tools interfaces have garbage preamps, so if you can afford to drop 1000 dollars on a good preamp, another 1000 dollars on plug ins then you should go pro tools.

If you would prefer to have a solid preamp/killer plugs for much less go with logic/duet

[iaresee]

I've just recently switched from an aging M-Audio/Cubase 3 setup to a Logic Pro/Duet setup. The Duet is nice. I miss SPDIF in/out and MIDI right on the recording box. It's got some weird quirks, like pops when you hold down the mute knob, that bug me but it sounds good so I can ignore them. And the Maestro software is annyoing. I hate that it asks you if you want to save every time you close the damn thing. It should have an auto-save or a never-freaking-ask-me-again option. But the signal coming in and out of it does sound really darn nice.

Logic is...weird. I'm still not 100% comfortable on a Mac (the mouse trips me up...thinking I might have to go back to a trusty old PC-style mouse). Logic itself hasn't been that bad to use. Getting Reason slaved to Logic was hell -- notes kept recording in Reason's sequencer, not Logic's, whenever I hit the Record button on my Axiom. Turns out I had to map the Record key to the record function in Logic so it wouldn't pass it on to Reason. That was a night of productivity lost.

It's a hard thing to switch DAWs. I was good with SX 3. I could get stuff down fast. I'm slow with Logic and it's going to be a good couple of months I think of fighting uphill with it. The manual flat out sucks. And because it's new there's not a lot of third party stuff. I used Cubase SX: Fire as the book for learning SX3 and it was great.

On the up side I don't miss Cubase's freeze function -- my shiny new iMac is more than powerful enough to run Logic + Reason + my usual 'verb and delay plugins.d

[kmgiants]

Well, I'm sort of lucky in that whatever platform I choose, it will probably (I hope!) seem like a huge improvement over the dinosaur I'm using (try not to laugh: Digi 001, ancient G3). Sounds like there's nearly universal love for the duet/logic combo - and based on about 99% of the opinions I've read, the apogee pres are top notch (exception seems to be Judson above). I'd been planning on going mbox 2 pro and eventually upgrading pres to something at the FMR Audio RNP level, but sounds like w/ the Duet I may not have to. I'd much rather spend my limited fund$ on mics than pres and as long as I can occasionally import/export to/from Protools sessions, I don't really care what's under the hood. I'm a Mac guy, so that's not an issue, and I have an older (non Intel) iMac G5 I'm planning to use.

I've seen comments that Logic is sort of like a souped up Garageband, which sort of scares me. Garageband seems like a toy and I didn't enjoy the little bit of playing around w/ it that I did. Will I be able to bring in ProTools sessions w/ region data, individual audio files, etc. all preserved and work away both on adding add'l tracks and editing? That part isn't a deal breaker, but if the answer is 'yes', I think I'm sold.

I should point out that most of my recording has been used for demos, but my band is planning to record a full-length CD soon, and I'm very much hoping we'll be able to do some of the tracks in the comfort and affordability of the home studio. I'd also love to be able to upgrade my tools (and skills) to the point that I'm able to do at least broadcast-quality work from home. So this is a somewhat professional decision.

[lutelover]

Mr. Giants,

All the comments on the thread "squared" with what you are hoping your setup to do. When you referred to "broadcast quality," however, I thought I'd throw in two cents.

There is a difference -- sometimes quite significant -- in the sound of converters. Just to accustom your ears for what to listen for in terms of the differences, you might want to pick up a copy of 3D Audio's ADC CD. Though the converters on the recording have been mostly superseded, not all of them have, and what is most important is "tuning" your ears to the sometimes subtle differences of converters. For the kind of work I do for clients -- recording classical music recitals, concerts, and demos -- the difference is very apparent, and knowing that my Weiss ADC2 converters are putting the very best music into ones and zeros is a fabulous thing. For me and the work I do, the difference is very significant -- and now I'm spoiled. Having said that, not everyone has need of that level of conversion. But I sure am happy I got a chance to learn what was out there before I learned what I would buy!

There are some other converters that, while I cannot speak to the quality of the Duet, are certainly very highly regarded right now. I'm thinking especially of the Benchmark series, and even the two channel Mytek stuff. The cost compared to the Duet is greater, but not so great that, for the "long term," you should not consider these units.

In the past I have owned MOTU converters and two different Apogee units. I "outgrew" the MOTU sound very quickly, although continued to use the S/PDIF interface for the Apogees. I was satisfied with the sound quality and features of the two Apogee units for a good deal longer time, but mostly because I could record 24-bit, and that made a big sound difference. When I finally went to the Weiss converters, everything else sounded, well, let's say 'lo-fi.'

Bottom line of this post is that unless you win the lottery in the next week and can afford the Weiss ADC2, check out the Benchmark and the Mytek stereo units. Again, I cannot say what the Apogee unit sounds like in comparison, but my 'experienced guess' is that they will be much better for you over the long term. The Benchmark ADC with the USB interface looks especially interesting looks especially versatile for needs such as yours. Or you could even look for a used Mytek 8x96 -- wonderful set of converters, and 8 channels, too!

I hope this helps.

Doug

[KennyM]

From looking at your situation and basic needs I'd suggest going to LE and staying with Pro Tools. You don't seem to have many midi related requirements so using (and learning) Logic will be somewhat overkill and not the easiest transition. Logic (or ilogic as I sometimes call it) is a pretty deep program and getting to know it will provide for a lot of head scratching and outright hair pulling. This has somewhat eased with V8 but it's still not as intuitive as Pro Tools in my opinion. On the plus side Logic is a very amazing midi sequencer and the included software samplers and instruments and plugins are great.

For recording audio you just can't beat Pro Tools and even though the midi sequencing is a little cumbersome it works fine and PT own software synths, samplers and drum programs are great. The other big plus for PT is that it's easy to take a hard drive and go work at some other studio as it's pretty much the standard in every studio.

I own and use two separate systems, one PT HD and the other is a pretty fullblown logic rig. I do all my audio recording and mixing in PT with limited midi sequencing (although I do find myself doing more and more midi in PT). For heavy midi and scoring to picture I use Logic. I never use it to record audio. Obviously, you can record audio, but after using Pro Tools I'd rather take a beating than have to record audio tracks with Logic as my recorder. IMO they are both great systems that excel at performing different tasks (Logic for midi, PT for audio and mixing).

[LSchefman]

>>Will I be able to bring in ProTools sessions w/ region data, individual audio files, etc. all preserved and work away both on adding add'l tracks and editing? That part isn't a deal breaker, but if the answer is 'yes', I think I'm sold.<<

Yes, you will. Logic's nice. But the whole concept of editing is a bit different with Logic, and if you want something more like PT in terms of editing concept, but with the MIDI stuff that Logic can do, I'd also look at Digital Performer. It's conceptual model is more linear, like PT. Logic's conceptual model is more like arranging, probably why they call the Arrange window the Arrange Window and not the editing window.

Still, Logic is capable of doing everything you need, it just works in a different way. If you go with Logic there are a couple of well known authors whose books on Logic are quite a good introduction to the subject, much better than the manual. One is by David Nahmani, who runs the Logic Pro Forum, and the other is by our own Orren (Orren, is your Logic 8 book out yet now that I've promoted it?). Buy these books. The manual is far too breezy and assumes you know more than someone new to the program would know.

>When you referred to "broadcast quality," however, I thought I'd throw in two cents.

There is a difference -- sometimes quite significant -- in the sound of converters. Just to accustom your ears for what to listen for in terms of the differences, you might want to pick up a copy of 3D Audio's ADC CD. Though the converters on the recording have been mostly superseded, not all of them have, and what is most important is "tuning" your ears to the sometimes subtle differences of converters. For the kind of work I do for clients -- recording classical music recitals, concerts, and demos -- the difference is very apparent, and knowing that my Weiss ADC2 converters are putting the very best music into ones and zeros is a fabulous thing. For me and the work I do, the difference is very significant -- and now I'm spoiled<<

Actually, I was the one who referred to "broadcast quality," and that's because my work is often on national TV, radio, etc., even with the relatively modest converter name that I use (MOTU). I was pointing out that while converter differences certainly exist, many pros are working quite successfully and happily with modest gear like the Duet.

In my TV, commercial and film work over the past 20 years. I never as you say "outgrew" the sound of the MOTU converters, because I actually like them. I like the compatibility with all of my machines, with the PCs our sound design guy uses, I like the frequent software upgrades when new platforms and software come out, and I like the fact that since the day I got my first set of 1296s what, 15 years ago or so (?) and up to the Travelers we use for some stuff, not one failure, not one software glitch, not one problem. Everything works. All the time. Very professional and rock solid. I think they sound quite nice, thank you.

I've heard the Weiss, and yes, there are differences. I'm fine with someone else making a different choice. I need as many as 24 channels of conversion at a time, and my money is going to be spent on stuff that, IMHO, is more important, such as mics, instruments, etc. But I'm a composer and musician, and that's what's more important to me. To people with other needs, I say go for it! Just don't turn up your nose at tools that work for plenty of pros.

In fact, I partner up with a very high end audio post facility, and along with their Fairlight Dream system, they use the MOTU Traveler for field work and in their sound design room. Why? Because this box works with everything, no matter what, can leave the studio while someone bangs on a piece of steel on location to get a sound with a laptop, and can be plugged into the Fairlights and still sound darn nice. And yes, they also have high end Apogee converters sitting around, and still the MOTU stuff is in demand among the audio guys (we have five audio post rooms, each with an engineer and an assistant engineer, so it's a big staff).

In my world, reliability and compatibility are truly important. Sound, also, of course, but I use my MOTU stuff with high end analog gear and high end software, and I'm feeling I'm not taking much of a hit. I think the transducers like mics and monitors and the recording room and outboard analog boxes are more important. That's a personal choice, not advice to the world. To each his/her own, right?

When I am spending money on gear, I am more likely to be headed for the store's instrument department, not the audio department. I hear a bigger difference in music recorded with a better instrument than with better converters. You may feel differently, and that's your prerogative.

The point I was trying to make isn't that there aren't differences in converters, it's that lots of moderately priced converters out there are very good indeed AND seeing professional use. In fact, when Russ Long reviewed one of MOTU's converter sets a year or two ago, he compared the sound quite favorably to his Lavry high end converters. I use my MOTU gear with the Neve 8816, and I think I get terrific audio, too, but that's my taste.

I've heard the little Duet, and it sounds very good. Is it a Weiss? Hell no, and so what.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I were just engineering, instead of composing to picture, etc.

I also have to laugh - my son is in LA interning with various folks involved in postproduction work, and was in one of the studios where the editor was doing sound design for a hit TV series. And what was he using? Relatively modest gear, actually. A PT HD rig, a small Mackie mixer, and Mackie monitors. No Weiss, Lavry or Benchmark converters. No SSL or Neve. No Barefoots. Gosh, how can one do professional work on gear just any slob can buy? ;)

Once again, real pros, doing real broadcast work, know that the name of the person operating the gear is far more crucial than the name on the box.

>> I've seen comments that Logic is sort of like a souped up Garageband, which sort of scares me.<<

Actually, it's not.

Logic is a very deep, fully professional program, that's been around for many years, long before Garage Band, it's not a toy. My guess is that when Apple bought Emagic, the German company making Logic, they took a little of Logic and threw it into GB. But Logic is NOT GB.

There's a review in the current PAR that makes the power of Logic clear, you can probably find it online. Anyway, there are plenty of folks using it to score movies and make major label records, so if you're not quite that far along, you will find it plenty powerful.

But you realize that Garageband is being used to make records now, so...uh...IMHO, all bets are off. Even garageband is more powerful in terms of recording capability than anything Hendrix or the Beatles used.

It's so NOT about the GEAR. Repeat: It's not about the GEAR.

It's about the music. Never forget that. ;)

[JingleJungle]

I do not exist, LOL.

Love mine (6.x) and will upgrade to the last version one of these days.
I just fill it up with enough noisemaking plugins (Pluggo!!) and I'm in heaven :)

JJ

[Suproman77]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/Nerd_Alert/Message%20board%20replies/13855ce1.png

[jammybastard]

Get a good set of pre-amps, firewire interface, clock, and use Reaper to record/edit.

BTW - Agreed that the Digidesign hardware pre-amps aren't up to snuff. The solution is to spend a little extra a make them "pro".

http://www.blacklionaudio.com/

specifically the "Tweakhead" mod for the Digi002.
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/digi002_mod.html

worth every cent.

[buddaman71]

>>
It's so NOT about the GEAR. Repeat: It's not about the GEAR.

It's about the music. Never forget that. ;)


Fantastically written post.
Thank you for that.

[LSchefman]

>> Fantastically written post.
Thank you for that.<<

Hey, thanks for that nice comment!

[kmgiants]

Yes, you will. Logic's nice. But the whole concept of editing is a bit different with Logic, and if you want something more like PT in terms of editing concept, but with the MIDI stuff that Logic can do, I'd also look at Digital Performer. It's conceptual model is more linear, like PT. Logic's conceptual model is more like arranging, probably why they call the Arrange window the Arrange Window and not the editing window.

Still, Logic is capable of doing everything you need, it just works in a different way.

<snip>

It's so NOT about the GEAR. Repeat: It's not about the GEAR.

It's about the music. Never forget that. ;)

Great post! Thanks. Can you, or someone, give some more detail about these differences in editing linear vs. "arranging" between PT and Logic? An example maybe? Having known nothing but PT, it's possible that the Logic "system" will seem great to me - or maybe it will seem completely unintuitive and miserable.

And I'm totally w/ you on "it's about the music" - that's why I've been able to use my Digi 001 and G3 for so many years, because I've just been focusing on making music a lot more than making recordings. And I'm still going to focus on that more. Just looking for the right tools that will let me do that in the easiest way at the highest quality for my budget.

[LSchefman]

>>Great post! Thanks. Can you, or someone, give some more detail about these differences in editing linear vs. "arranging" between PT and Logic? An example maybe?<<

Well, first be aware that I'm referring to relatively minor conceptual differences here, which is why I'm having difficulty even explaining this; really, if you use both programs, as I do, the differences seem magnified to me when I go from one to the other. They're not ALL that different. But here's an example:

In DP, say you record something. The "model" if you will, is a linear piece of tape. Even if you punch in something, or record the track in a couple of passes, you have one track as though it were tape (this may have changed in DP6 however, which may have copied Logic's subfolder concept). So you perform your editing operations on this track.

In Logic, the model is that each track contains one or more "regions," each of which more or less lives on its own. A second pass creates a new region. The idea is that you can easily move whole regions around to create arrangements very quickly. If you're recording a song, you can rearrange it, literally, in a few seconds. New passes on the track go into subfolders that you can create comps with in literally moments.

Now, ultimately, you can do the very same thing in DP, it just...feels different. Hard to explain. You have to see it and work with it a little to understand.

Other differences:

DP's menus are arranged more intuitively, including the submenus in each window. I think it's a little easier to work with as a beginner. I had my son recording and editing with it when he was in middle school within the first hour; Logic really required buying a third party book. However, once I went through each lesson in the book, I began to appreciate what a brilliant program Logic is. It's not hard to learn, it's just different enough in its approach that you have to have an introduction to it to know where to look for things.

DP also has some other interesting features Logic lacks. If you're doing, say, a TV show or film score, and there are lots of cues, DP lets you keep them in the same project, and create a virtual "rack" of instruments and plugins used on all of the cues. These segments are called "chunks". They can be chained together to create songs as well. The virtual rack saves CPU horsepower. Or you could use chunks to create, say, a song: the verse could be a chunk, the bridge could be a chunk, etc.

HOWEVER: I wouldn't say DP is a more powerful program than logic. It just "thinks" differently. And day to day, I use Logic more now.

Another difference: DP5 sounds different from Logic 8. I'm not saying one sounds better than the other, they're simply different. I haven't tried DP6 yet, so I dunno.

Another program to seriously consider, IMHO, is Cubase. Cubase 4 is both Mac and PC compatible, and it works like kind of a blend of Logic and DP. The sound quality is excellent, and it has some very cool features that are fast and easy to learn. Our sound design guy uses Cubase, and has shown me enough to convince me that it's a very worthy competitor indeed. There were things he showed me that made me say, "oh yeah, that works like DP" and things that made me say, "yes, Logic works like that on this feature". But in any event, it's a very powerful program. I loved how easy it was to time stretch and compress waveforms for sound design purposes. So simple and intuitive!

OK, so a lot of this may come down to value for money.

Logic is an amazing value at $500, especially if you're going to use the included plugins, loops, and other included sample data. The plugin instruments are as good as it gets, and the effects are very nice as well. It's totally professional in sound and results. And the other included programs, right down to one that will create DVDs in various formats, are pretty amazing.

DP is a highly professional platform, very flexible. While I don't think its plugin instruments are as good as Logic's, its plugin EFFECTS are IMHO more creative. And I like it better for long format work, such as films, etc. I find it easier to learn. YMMV. And it's $500 street, too.

Cubase is very cool. I don't have enough experience with it to go into much depth, but from what I have seen, and from having my hands on it a bit, it's the equal of the other two programs. Its visuals are quite nice as well. Cubase is a little more expensive than Logic and DP street. I think our sound designer paid over 600 for it.

And of course Pro Tools is STILL a very wonderful program if you don't need all the advanced MIDI features. In fact, newer versions of PT operate on audio in a very sophisticated way, and it's certainly a studio standard (no longer THE studio standard, perhaps, especially in the postproduction world with competitors like Nuendo gaining acceptance and with dedicated platforms like Fairlight, etc., which is made solely for post work).

If what you plan to do is record guitar and vocals, or record your band, I'd stick with Pro Tools. You know the program, it works great, and sounds great.

If you want to delve deeply into MIDI stuff, consider one of the other programs.

[iaresee]

Logic really required buying a third party book. However, once I went through each lesson in the book, I began to appreciate what a brilliant program Logic is.
I seek a recommendation on a Logic 8 book. That's how I learned Cubase 3 and it worked very well. I'm not seeing a lot out there right now for third party Logic 8 lessons.

[LSchefman]

I used this, Apple Pro Training Series, by David Nahmani, because Orren Merton's new book Logic Pro 8 Power wasn't out yet (I'm still not sure it's been released; Orren is a TGP member...Orren?):

http://www.peachpit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=0321502922

The Nahmani book is an excellent and quick guide to getting through the basics, learning how to get around on the program, and includes lessons using files that come on a CD (or DVD, I don't remember and gave it to my son) with the book.

There is also, "Logic Pro 8 Beyond the Basics", Logic Pro 8 Audio and Music Production, and maybe a few others.

I'm going to buy Orren's book as soon as it's out, because he has demonstrated that he has a very strong, in-depth handle on the software, and has written other books on earlier versions of Logic; however Amazon says it's not released yet.

So come on, Orren!

[retro]

I seek a recommendation on a Logic 8 book. That's how I learned Cubase 3 and it worked very well. I'm not seeing a lot out there right now for third party Logic 8 lessons.

I've am a big fan of Apple Pro Training Series books. I have the Logic 8 and Logic Express 8 book on it's way to me. So I can't speak yet on the Logic series...

...I can however, say that after going through all the Final Cut books, Shake, Motion and Color series so far that they all have had a commonality in the way you learn working on projects that for me work really well.

For Digital Performer I subscribe to Tutorial Depot Podcasts which I also like.

They also offer Logic Tutorial subscriptions and the tips section podcasts are free. So you can get a good idea of if they would be a viable resource for you.

http://www.tutorialdepot.com/TD003/TD003.html

Haven't really used these for Logic, but Mac Pro Video is another resource...

http://www.macprovideo.com/browse/logic

And have also enjoyed Orren's Power books. I read somewhere release in October...Orren?