I just don't think I'll ever get theory down cold [Archive]

lhallam

07-12-2004, 07:42 PM

You are not too old.

Somethings require book-style memorization. Not fun, but once you get it down you will remember it as you use it.

You need to know your intervals inside and out. It's sort of like learning phonics. Once you have them, you can use them to figure things out on your own.

For example, if you see:

A C E, you should know immediately that A to C is a minor 3rd, C to E is a major 3rd and A to E is a perfect 5th. m3 + M3 = minor chord.

Along with intervals you need to know your scale degrees for the same reasons.

For example:

Once you know that G is the 5th degree of a C scale it is a matter of G# for a sharp 5 chord or Gb for a flat five chord.

Sometimes when I'm playing I will decide to finish a phrase on the 13th. If I'm in A major I know immediately that note is F#.

Landing on the b7 sounds pretty cool in some cases, you should know in the key of E that note is a D.

You need to learn all chords in a major scale and a minor scale and play them diatonically up and down the neck.

When you play chords, you should know which is the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc of the chord.

Then you need to learn & play all of the Greek modes.

These things are not fun but they are the building blocks. I'm sure there are guys that will argue with me but believe me, you can't go wrong having them down cold.

Once you have the building blocks, the other stuff should come easier. Time to hit the books and start memorizing. Make some flash cards if that will help.

The next trick is getting from your head to your fingers. Get some Aebersold or something similar to accomplish that.

Tom Gross

07-12-2004, 08:16 PM

Well, I would say that not every teacher is right for everybody.

To me, it really helps if a teacher applies the theory along the way to stuff you understand in a style you want to play. What Lance sez is true, you have to put in some boring work, but if you can relate it to making music along the way, it does two things:

- it motivates you
- it clicks. The light bulb goes on.

If you see, for example, the circle of 5ths as related to "Hey Joe", or the relationship between a lot of Carlos Santana's solos & Miles' "So What", or whatever.

The teacher who turned me on to theory gave me music to learn along the way that helped me incorporate it in my playing as I went, that really helped.

Also, sometimes the stuff can come too fast, with too much material. If all you do is memorize pages and pages of stuff, and are moving on before you really master it, it gets overwhelming. This is the best thing I got out of "Effortless Mastery" - the idea of slowing down until you really "own" a new concept.

bbarnard

07-13-2004, 08:27 AM

Thanks for the insights. I know some of the stuff that Lance has there but not all of it and certainly not to the speed needed to apply it. For example I could have told you that the A C E thing was a minor chord but not "automatically". I do know some of the other things (I can probably play chords to match the scale diatonically for the major scale in at least one or two positions).

Tom, your post interests me in two respects. First my teacher and I don't really like the same kinds of music. He's more of a jazz (Holdsworth, etc.) kind of guy and I'm a blues guy. He's probably the strongest theorist in town. There is no blues teacher in town (e.g., one guy that is really into blues). We do work on songs from time to time but typically we never get through learning a whole song note for note. Usually I get "guidelines" on what the person in the song is doing but not the note for note thing. Case in point, I'm trying to learn the Chris Cain song First Time for Everything (off of Hall of Shame). He worked the general chord structure out for me and then helped me figure out the notes for the intro lick (very fast for me, still don't have it at speed yet, but I'm getting close). Then at the next lesson I told him that littlemoon had indicated that the intro lick was a melodic minor moved up a fifth. I didn't know what that meant so the next lesson was melodic minor shapes and practice. So we've gone away from the song now to that.

I was especially interested in your comment on Effortless Mastery. My teacher has actually suggested that book to me, but I haven't picked it up yet. I feel exactly like you said, that I have too much stuff and don't "own" it yet.

I am working with a theory book now some so we'll see if that helps.

Thanks for the feedback.

jzucker

07-13-2004, 09:20 AM

I've said this before. Theory is simple. If you can learn your multiplication tables you can learn theory in 3-4 weeks. It's simply a matter of:

Memorizing all your key signatures
Learning the intervals 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and understanding how many chromatic steps exist between them
Being able to harmonize the major scale and understanding how it relates to your intervals.

Anything beyond that can be easily learned as you go along. Specifically what are you having problems with?

From your description, I'm going to venture a guess that your problem isn't learning theory - It's learning to apply theory. That's a HUGE difference. That takes lots of listening and study but it's certainly not beyond your capabilities.

bbarnard

07-13-2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by jzucker
I've said this before. Theory is simple. If you can learn your multiplication tables you can learn theory in 3-4 weeks. It's simply a matter of:

Memorizing all your key signatures
Learning the intervals 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and understanding how many chromatic steps exist between them
Being able to harmonize the major scale and understanding how it relates to your intervals.

Anything beyond that can be easily learned as you go along. Specifically what are you having problems with?

From your description, I'm going to venture a guess that your problem isn't learning theory - It's learning to apply theory. That's a HUGE difference. That takes lots of listening and study but it's certainly not beyond your capabilities.

I don't have all the key signatures memorized but I could figure them out if need be. That is something I'm working on with the book I'm now using.

I know the chromatic steps between intervals (I'm assuming that you are talking about knowing that there is a whole step between 2 and 3 and a half step between say 3 and 4 - talking major scale now). For me it is more things like the 9th, 11th, 13th. I know that the 9th is the same as the second but finding that note in the next octave (relative to a first octave root) is more problematic for me than finding it in the first octave.

I think I understand harmonizing the major scale. I'm assuming that you are talking about a I major chord vs a ii minor chord (again harmonizing against a major scale), diminished (or more realistically half diminished) on the 7th degree of the scale.

Yes I'd agree, I'm probably talking more about application than anything else. For example. I've been through arps (for harmonized chords) a couple of times but don't have them completely memorized yet. I certainly don't have them applied to my playing in any way yet and if I applied them now they'd sound like an arp played from root to whatever (7, 9, 11 or 13). Trying to start playing it on something other than the root would be challenging for me.

Modes still baffle me. Just found out last lesson that there are modes beyond the major scale ones (e.g., a lydian b7 from the melodic minor, who knew?).

I don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be though Jack. I don't think you could learn substitutions for example in 3-4 weeks.

jzucker

07-13-2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by bbarnard
I don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be though Jack. I don't think you could learn substitutions for example in 3-4 weeks.

Learning subs is an application of theory, not theory itself. Learning to find the 9th in any octave of any position of the guitar is simple if you're willing to expend the time. It's really just a matter of memorizing the chromatic scale and being able to point to any note on any fret of any string and name the note all the way up the fingerboard. You could make flash cards or use some other type of learning device.

If you're serious about learning theory, memorize all the keys. Don't be working on it. Just do it. Then, be able to recite the major scale in all keys. Then learn the notes on every string and every fret. Once you can do that, it's simple to find the 9th or #11 in any scale position.

What makes it difficult is delaying the obvious which is just sitting down and memorizing the keys and scales. I used to test myself when I was in the bathtub or laying in bed.

As the ad copy says, JUST DO IT

P.S.

I'm not dogging you. I'm just telling you what I'd be telling you if you were my student.

Shakkal

07-13-2004, 12:08 PM

You're in the same boat as I am ... you can probably figure out most stuff but struggle to apply things right on the spot because it's not automatic yet, and things seem harder than they really are. I've found that (for me) the only way to really be able to apply theory is to first learn the foundations by repetition and memorisation, in order to not have to spend those extra few seconds trying to figure out stuff ... the mechanics have to be as automatic as 2x2=4. You (I) should reach a point where the problem is not finding where that b9 is but to think whether it's a good time to play it instead of the natural 9 or whatever based on sound alone.

lhallam

07-13-2004, 01:26 PM

It looks like we're all in agreement here.

Tom makes some very important points. Don't run before you can walk. Get one thing down pat before moving on. That goes for everything. You don't learn to spell before learning the alphabet.

It IS as simple as Jack says. Once you have the foundation all the other stuff comes easier and logically.

Be sure to communicate with your teacher, he's not a mind reader. Playing and enjoying yourself should come first. If you're serious, you will learn the theory eventually. If he's trying to encourage you to figure the licks out off the CD then theory can be helpful.

BTW - One thing that is extremely important is to know every note on your fretboard. Learning all the theory in the world isn't going to help until you know the fretboard blindfolded.

lhallam

07-13-2004, 02:25 PM

Cycle of 5ths and 4ths never helped me much. Instead I learned this:

Flats are added in this order:

BEADGCF (BEAD CFG) that's easy to remember

In other words 1 flat = Bb, 2 flats = Bb,Eb 3 flats = Bb,Eb,Ab 4 flats = Bb,Eb,Ab,Db up to 7 flats

Sharps are added in the opposite order of flats:

FCGDAEB (BEADGCF backwards) memorize this as well.

So one sharp = F#, 2 sharps = F#,C#, 3 sharps = F#,C#,G#

When dealing with sharps:

The key of a piece is one 1/2 step (minor second) up from the last note sharped. If you see one sharp (F#) then go up one half step to G. So the key is G major. Two sharps (F#,C#) up a m2 from C# is D. So the key is D major. Three sharps (F#,C#,G#) m2 up from G# = A.

For natural minor keys it is one whole step (major second) below the last note sharped. One sharp (F#) and M2 below F# = E, the key is E minor. Two sharps (F#,C#) a M2 below C# is B, the key is B minor. Three (F#,C#,G#), a M2 below G# = F#.

When dealing with flats:

Memorize that one flat (Bb) is the key of F major.

After that, the key is the name of the second to last note flatted. If you have two flats (Bb and Eb) the second to last note flatted is Bb so the key is Bb major. Three flats (Bb, Eb, Ab) the second to last note flatted is Eb, so key is Eb major. Four flats (Bb,Eb,Ab,Db) = Ab major.

Another way of figuring out flats is to go up a perfect 5th from the last note flatted. Five flats (Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb) up a P5 from Gb is Db, the key is Db.

For natural minors the key is a major 3rd up from the last note flatted. One flat (Bb) up a M3 from Bb = D, the key is D minor. Two flats (Bb,Eb) up a M3 from Eb = G, the key is G minor.

Keep in mind that the sharps and flats are "sticky" in other words if you have 5 sharps (F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#) the F has already been sharped so it's F# major, the D has already been sharped so it's D# minor.

These are little cheats to help however it is better to memorize the correlation of the number of sharps or flats to the key.

For example three sharps = A major & F# minor, 4 sharps = E maj and C# minor
Three flats = Eb major & C minor, Five flats = Db major & Bb minor

You may notice that the relative minor is a minor 3rd down from the major.

One minor 3rd down from A = F# hence A major and F# minor have the same number of sharps (key signature).

One minor 3rd down from Eb is C so Eb maj and C minor have the same number of flats.

This comes in handy when playing pentatonic scales.

jzucker

07-13-2004, 02:29 PM

Great posting Lance! Someone please archive Lance's post !

spaceboy

07-13-2004, 06:31 PM

yeh, that's pretty much how I work out theory. and there I was thinking i'd a load of work to do to learn it "properly"

excellent

Tag

07-13-2004, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by lhallam
Cycle of 5ths and 4ths never helped me much. Instead I learned this:

Flats are added in this order:

BEADGCF (BEAD CFG) that's easy to remember

In other words 1 flat = Bb, 2 flats = Bb,Eb 3 flats = Bb,Eb,Ab 4 flats = Bb,Eb,Ab,Db up to 7 flats

Sharps are added in the opposite order of flats:

FCGDAEB (BEADGCF backwards) memorize this as well.

So one sharp = F#, 2 sharps = F#,C#, 3 sharps = F#,C#,G#

When dealing with sharps:

The key of a piece is one 1/2 step (minor second) up from the last note sharped. If you see one sharp (F#) then go up one half step to G. So the key is G major. Two sharps (F#,C#) up a m2 from C# is D. So the key is D major. Three sharps (F#,C#,G#) m2 up from G# = A.

For natural minor keys it is one whole step (major second) below the last note sharped. One sharp (F#) and M2 below F# = E, the key is E minor. Two sharps (F#,C#) a M2 below C# is B, the key is B minor. Three (F#,C#,G#), a M2 below G# = F#.

When dealing with flats:

Memorize that one flat (Bb) is the key of F major.

After that, the key is the name of the second to last note flatted. If you have two flats (Bb and Eb) the second to last note flatted is Bb so the key is Bb major. Three flats (Bb, Eb, Ab) the second to last note flatted is Eb, so key is Eb major. Four flats (Bb,Eb,Ab,Db) = Ab major.

Another way of figuring out flats is to go up a perfect 5th from the last note flatted. Five flats (Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb) up a P5 from Gb is Db, the key is Db.

For natural minors the key is a major 3rd up from the last note flatted. One flat (Bb) up a M3 from Bb = D, the key is D minor. Two flats (Bb,Eb) up a M3 from Eb = G, the key is G minor.

Keep in mind that the sharps and flats are "sticky" in other words if you have 5 sharps (F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#) the F has already been sharped so it's F# major, the D has already been sharped so it's D# minor.

These are little cheats to help however it is better to memorize the correlation of the number of sharps or flats to the key.

For example three sharps = A major & F# minor, 4 sharps = E maj and C# minor
Three flats = Eb major & C minor, Five flats = Db major & Bb minor

You may notice that the relative minor is a minor 3rd down from the major.

One minor 3rd down from A = F# hence A major and F# minor have the same number of sharps (key signature).

One minor 3rd down from Eb is C so Eb maj and C minor have the same number of flats.

This comes in handy when playing pentatonic scales.
I dont remember any of that stuff anymore.. :( When I think "Father Charles Go Down And Eat Breakfast", or "Go Down And Eat Breakfast Father Charles, thats exactly what I do! :D ;)

lhallam

07-14-2004, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Tag
I dont remember any of that stuff anymore.. :( When I think "Father Charles Go Down And Eat Breakfast", or "Go Down And Eat Breakfast Father Charles, thats exactly what I do! :D ;)

It's easier to see than to explain because you just look at the key signature on the music and if it's sharps you just think the next note up for major or the next note down for minor.

When you see flats you just look to see the penultimate flat for major or think up one space or line (depending) for minor.

Visually it's very simple.

Dunno "Go Down And Eat Breakfast Father Charles", seems out of order.

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard

* * *

Case in point, I'm trying to learn the Chris Cain song First Time for Everything (off of Hall of Shame). He worked the general chord structure out for me and then helped me figure out the notes for the intro lick (very fast for me, still don't have it at speed yet, but I'm getting close). Then at the next lesson I told him that littlemoon had indicated that the intro lick was a melodic minor moved up a fifth. I didn't know what that meant so the next lesson was melodic minor shapes and practice. So we've gone away from the song now to that.

* * *
It's a commonly used melodic minor scale. "Up a 5th" simply means play the melodic minor based on the 5th degree of the key. So, if your playing a I - IV - V blues, "up a 5th" means play the melodic minor scale based on the V. In the key of C, you would play G melodic minor, also known as the C "Lydian Dominant" scale (G melodic minor = C lydian dominant. Same scale, different names).

For the Chris Cain lick, don't move your hand up to the V chord position (root on the 6th string). Stay at the I chord (root 6) position and play the "up a 5th" melodic minor (or lydian dominant) in that position. Mind you, Chris uses a lot of passing notes that are not in the scale, but the lick is based in the scale. Here's the position you would play in the key of C (melodic minor up a 5th, or C lydian dominant):

http://home.earthlink.net/~littlemoon6/5mm.jpg

littlemoon

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 12:47 PM

BTW, Chris has been playing that lick for a long, long time (still fresh, though). So, don't assume that there must be something wrong with you if you can't play it up to speed. It's going to require a ton of practice to nail that one up to speed. However, it's a very useful and adaptable phrase in other contexts, and, once you drill it and learn it, you'll own it for life.

littlemoon

jzucker

07-15-2004, 12:51 PM

Good explanation. What tool generated the fretboard diagram?

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by jzucker
Good explanation. What tool generated the fretboard diagram? I get asked that question a lot. I used "Guitar Power," a nifty little music utility program to do the scale. You can find it here: http://www.janasoftware.co.uk/

I use ACDSee to cut and paste the screen shot of the fretboard from Guitar Power into a jpeg file. Find ACDSee here: http://www.acdsystems.com

littlemoon

jzucker

07-15-2004, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
I get asked that question a lot. I used "Guitar Power," a nifty little music utility program to do the scale. You can find it here: http://www.janasoftware.co.uk/

I use ACDSee to cut and paste the screen shot of the fretboard from Guitar Power into a jpeg file. Find ACDSee here: http://www.acdsystems.com

littlemoon

Thanks. I'd need something with higher res than a screen shot. I thought maybe you had a tool that could possibly output a PDF or something...

bbarnard

07-15-2004, 01:18 PM

Okay I'm confused now. I thought the 4th scale degree was lydian. As my instructor explained it to me, it is the lydian b7 (melodic minor started on the F which can be played over an F7 if the key is C).

littlemoon, I just about have the lick down at speed. I'm using the Tascam CDGT to train it and I'm at 8% speed reduction. I'll get it yet.:dude

Tag

07-15-2004, 01:23 PM

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by jzucker
Thanks. I'd need something with higher res than a screen shot. I thought maybe you had a tool that could possibly output a PDF or something... Well, what you see is what you get. Adobe Acrobat can easily import the jpeg file and convert it to pdf format or paste the jpeg to a pdf page. Since it's just a graphic illustration, I don't know why you would need any higher resolution.

littlemoon

jzucker

07-15-2004, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Tag
I have those Benson licks at 100% speed reduction and still cant get them! :eek: :mad:

Tag - Did you ever cop that Benson lick on my website that's a preview of SOS Vol II? I thought of you when I posted it.

Tag

07-15-2004, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by jzucker
Tag - Did you ever cop that Benson lick on my website that's a preview of SOS Vol II? I thought of you when I posted it.
No! I have not seen it. Ill have to go check it out and learn it for sure. just starting to get a handle on sheets. SO much material! :dude Ill post as soon as I get a better grasp of it. :)

bbarnard

07-15-2004, 01:46 PM

Can someone clarify my question about lydian being the 4th scale degree vs "up a fifth"? To me up a fifth from C would be G, which would be mixolydian right? Am I confused or what?

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
Okay I'm confused now. I thought the 4th scale degree was lydian. As my instructor explained it to me, it is the lydian b7 (melodic minor started on the F which can be played over an F7 if the key is C).

littlemoon, I just about have the lick down at speed. I'm using the Tascam CDGT to train it and I'm at 8% speed reduction. I'll get it yet.:dude That's why I prefer to think in terms of "key centers" instead of in "modes" Modes can be confusing.

Without going into great detail (which I'm not qualified to do), note that F lydian dominant is the same scale as C melodic minor, and C melodic minor is the "up a 5th" from F. C melodic minor is the same scale as the lydian dominant mode of F melodic minor. So, I'm guessing that your teacher meant play C melodic minor (F lydian dominant) over the IV (F) chord.

Yes, the 4th mode is lydian, but there's no F natural in the scale, Just as there is no F natural in the lydian mode of the C major scale. In the lydian mode, the F natural is raised to F#.

Confusing, eh?

littlemoon

jzucker

07-15-2004, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
That's why I prefer to think in terms of "key centers" instead of in "modes" Modes can be confusing.

Without going into great detail (which I'm not qualified to do), note that F lydian dominant is the same scale as C melodic minor, and C melodic minor is the "up a 5th" from F. C melodic minor is the same scale as the lydian dominant mode of F melodic minor. So, I'm guessing that your teacher meant play C melodic minor (F lydian dominant) over the IV (F) chord.

Yes, the 4th mode is lydian, but there's no F natural in the scale, Just as there is no F natural in the lydian mode of the C major scale. In the lydian mode, the F natural is raised to F#.

Confusing, eh?

littlemoon

Wait...I think you're making things more difficult. Lydian mode of C major is F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F and it certainly does contain an F natural. I know what you mean but I think your terminology is screwing folks up.

When you're saying Lydian mode of C major, you're really talking about Lydian mode in the key of G which would be C,D,E,F#,G,A,B.

That's the way I teach it.

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by jzucker
Wait...I think you're making things more difficult. Lydian mode of C major is F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F and it certainly does contain an F natural. I know what you mean but I think your terminology is screwing folks up.

When you're saying Lydian mode of C major, you're really talking about Lydian mode in the key of G which would be C,D,E,F#,G,A,B.

That's the way I teach it. Well, there you go. I always make things more difficult than they have to be. That's why I'm a tough old bird. In my defense, I did disclose my lack of qualification to pontificate on the subject, and I didn't see anyone else rise to the occasion.

littlemoon

lhallam

07-15-2004, 02:44 PM

This thread is confusing.

C melodic minor = C D Eb F G A B

If you play the same key signature starting on an F, you get:

F G A B C D Eb which is F lydian with a b7.

Which is what littlemoon said.

I was doing fine until an F# got thrown in. Sure you can play an F# over an F7 chord but it takes some skill to make it sound right.

I think possibly littlemoon is saying you can play a C lydian mode over a C major 7th chord which has the following notes:

C D E F# G A B

As Jack stated that is the lydian mode in the key of G major aka C lydian.

Parker did this all the time. The F# provides a nice pivot point as it's the tritone of C and it opens up all kinds of possibilities.

As an aside:

There is no one "right" approach unless you're trying to emulate someone's playing.

You can think in terms of the key of the entire piece (or section of the piece). Ex ii-V-I (dm G7 C - think in terms of the C)

You can think in terms of the chord you are playing over

Ex ii-V-I (dm = d dorian, d phrygian, d minor...
to G7 = G mixolydian, G lydian b7, F whole tone...
to C - C major, C lydian, etc)

You can think in terms of the line you are playing. In other words play a melody without a lot of regard to the underlying chords.

For example, Flintstones Theme starting on C over Dm-G-C

Sometimes I only think about the correlation of the note to the chord (9th, 13th, b7) and/or a target note to end the phrase.

These are just approaches you can try. In my mind rules are meant to be broken.

bbarnard

07-15-2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by lhallam
This thread is confusing.

C melodic minor = C D Eb F G A B

If you play the same key signature starting on an F, you get:

F G A B C D Eb which is F lydian with a b7.

Which is what littlemoon said.

My teacher also called it lydian b7 (in this case F). And yes littlemoon he did have me play C melodic minor over an F7 to accentuate the lydian character of that scale. What confused me was the "up a fifth". To me up a fifth would mean:

C D E F G
1 2 3 4 5

or G which would put things in mixolydian (or to really try and spell it out, the mixolydian mode of a C melodic minor scale - whatever that may be called).

And lance, if I EVER get to where you are with that explanation, then I can do away with this thread. I'm already pushing the limits of my theory knowledge just participating in this thread.:eek:

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 03:03 PM

Thank you! But, now, I don't know what I was trying to say (which, evidently, can be stated differently in various relative contexts, or thought modes). I guess that's why I drew a picture.

I think bbarnard is still waiting for someone to help explain his query, however. Any takers?

littlemoon

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 03:08 PM

The crux of his question seems to be: How can a melodic minor "up a 5th" also be known as a lydian dominant scale. I assume, of course, that we agree that it is the same.

Can someone provide a lucid explanation for him (and for me).

littlemoon

bbarnard

07-15-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
The crux of his question seems to be: How can a melodic minor "up a 5th" also be known as a lydian dominant scale. I assume, of course, that we agree that it is the same.

Can someone provide a lucid explanation for him (and for me).

littlemoon Yeppers that's the question alrighty although my question is almost more simplistic. How can a melodic minor up a 5th be lydian (of any type - I understand that with the b7 that makes it dominant) rather than mixolydian (of some flavor).

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
Yeppers that's the question alrighty although my question is almost more simplistic. How can a melodic minor up a 5th be lydian (of any type - I understand that with the b7 that makes it dominant) rather than mixolydian (of some flavor).
There is very little consensus about the nomenclature of the melodic minor modes. For example, the lydian dominant is also known as the "mixolydian #4" and the "overtone" scales. Also, the third mode of the melodic minor is also known as the "lydian augumented" scale.

littlemoon

lhallam

07-15-2004, 03:22 PM

I re-read your original post littlemoon and now I get it.

Up a 5th from C is G. That would be a G mixolydian HOWEVER
we are changing the key signature so now the whole steps and 1/2 steps fall between different scale degrees.

It's the sound of each note in relation to each other that gives a scale it's character.

All littlemoon is saying is you can play:

G A Bb C D E F# over the V chord.

We call that scale G melodic minor.

If you play the same key signature starting on C you get:

C D E F# G A Bb

We call that scale C lydian b7.

Now I see where the F# came from. I shoulda paid more attention.

Same key signature, different root note causes the 1/2 steps and whole steps to fall in different scale degrees.

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by lhallam
I re-read your original post littlemoon and now I get it.

Up a 5th from C is G. That would be a G mixolydian HOWEVER
we are changing the key signature so now the whole steps and 1/2 steps fall between different scale degrees.

It's the sound of each note in relation to each other that gives a scale it's character.

All littlemoon is saying is you can play:

G A Bb C D E F# over the V chord.

We call that scale G melodic minor.

If you play the same key signature starting on C you get:

C D E F# G A Bb

We call that scale C lydian b7.

Now I see where the F# came from. I shoulda paid more attention.

Same key signature, different root note causes the 1/2 steps and whole steps to fall in different scale degrees.
Could it be that the "melodic minor up a 5th" expression is not as common as I had thought? This is approved nomenclature at GIT, but maybe it collides with the Berklee doctrine. I don't know.

BTW, I meant to say that the melodic minor "up a 5th" could be played over the static dominant I chord (C7).

littlemoon

lhallam

07-15-2004, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
Could it be that the "melodic minor up a 5th" expression is not as common as I had thought? This is approved nomenclature at GIT, but maybe it collides with the Berklee doctring. I don't know.

littlemoon

Dunno, I'm classically trained at a college and taught myself jazz.
Those are the terms Jack uses.

When did you go to GIT?

Is my clarification correct?

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by lhallam
Dunno, I'm classically trained at a college and taught myself jazz.
Those are the terms Jack uses.

When did you go to GIT?

Is my clarification correct? Wow. These posts are really flying now. I edited my last post while you were posting this; so please refer to the above again.

littlemoon

bbarnard

07-15-2004, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
Could it be that the "melodic minor up a 5th" expression is not as common as I had thought? This is approved nomenclature at GIT, but maybe it collides with the Berklee doctring. I don't know.

And yet my teacher was a GIT instructor and didn't like this nomenclature. Go figure!

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
And yet my teacher was a GIT instructor and didn't like this nomenclature. Go figure!
Trouble maker!

littlemoon

lhallam

07-15-2004, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
Trouble maker!

littlemoon

DOH - Yeah, that's exactly what you said.

The G melodic minor aka C lydian b7 can be played over the C7.

littlemoon, did you go to GIT and if yes when?

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by lhallam
DOH - Yeah, that's exactly what you said.

The G melodic minor aka C lydian b7 can be played over the C7.

littlemoon, did you go to GIT and if yes when?
Will there be a prize or a penalty for the "correct" answer?
Alright, I'll risk it. I disclaim any association with MIT and GIT of any nature whatsoever. I did learn this stuff from Don Mock's teachings, however, and he is a major mode of the GIT doctrine.

littlemoon

lhallam

07-15-2004, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
Will there be a prize or a penalty for the "correct" answer?
Alright, I'll risk it. I disclaim any association with MIT and GIT of any nature whatsoever. I did learn this stuff from Don Mock's teachings, however, and he is a major mode of the GIT doctrine.

littlemoon

No right answer, just fishing to see if you knew some buds of mine who went there. Don Mock is a great player.

bbarnard

07-15-2004, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by lhallam
No right answer, just fishing to see if you knew some buds of mine who went there. Don Mock is a great player.
In case you're interested, my teacher is Richy Stano. As I said he was a GIT instructor for a while.

lhallam

07-15-2004, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
In case you're interested, my teacher is Richy Stano. As I said he was a GIT instructor for a while.

Dunno Richy but he's got good credentials. GIT is known for it's qualified guys and has produced some great players.

Do you understand what littlemoon was saying about the melodic minor up a 5th?

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 04:13 PM

bbarnard,
Well, it seems that I've done all the damage I can do for today. I know that you haven't received a rational answer to your question yet. But that should tell you something. This ain't rocket science. It ain't even science by any stretch of the word. It's an evolving system of thought that eventually dissapoints us all. Give it a while longer to come to fruition. In the meanwhile, take it with a grain of salt.

Let me just say again that, in the key of C, "melodic minor up a 5th" means play G melodic minor over the C7, the static dominant I chord. This is the same scale, by name (the same collection of scale tones, but not beginning on the same note if played sequentially), as "C lydian dominant" aka "C lydian b7." You don't need an explanation to see that the scales are identical - G melodic minor = C lydian dominant. Your teacher might not like the nomenclature (maybe that's why he left GIT), but you can see the logic of it, cant you? G is "up a 5th" from C, and G melodic minor is the same as C lydian dominant.

Now, go practice that remaining 8% of the Cain lick and stop making so much trouble for everyone.

littlemoon

bbarnard

07-15-2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by lhallam
Do you understand what littlemoon was saying about the melodic minor up a 5th?

Well let me try and summarize:

Over the IV chord of a I-IV-V progression you can play the melodic minor scale based on the 5th scale degree of the song key. In the case of a song in the key of C you could play the G melodic minor over the IV (F7).

The G melodic minor scale also happens to have the same notes in it as the C lydian b7 which is essentially the lydian mode of the melodic minor based off the song key (C).

How's that?

Edited to add:

Apparently I still don't have it because littlemoon is playing the G melodic minor over the I and my teacher had me play over the IV.

lhallam

07-15-2004, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
Well let me try and summarize:

Over the IV chord of a I-IV-V progression you can play the melodic minor scale based on the 5th scale degree of the song key. In the case of a song in the key of C you could play the G melodic minor over the IV (F7).

Not the IV chord, the I or C7 chord in this example.

Originally posted by bbarnard

The G melodic minor scale also happens to have the same notes in it as the C lydian b7 which is essentially the lydian mode of the melodic minor based off the song key (C).

How's that?

Correct.

bbarnard

07-15-2004, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
Now, go practice that remaining 8% of the Cain lick and stop making so much trouble for everyone.

I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble......
:(

lhallam

07-15-2004, 04:31 PM

littlemoon

07-15-2004, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble
I will not start threads about my lack of theory knowledge and cause trouble......
:( No, no, no! Write:

I will not start threads exposing the groups (particularly littlemoon's) inability to provide rational answers to theory questions.
I will not start threads exposing the groups (particularly littlemoon's) inability to provide rational answers to theory questions.
I will not start threads exposing the groups (particularly littlemoon's) inability to provide rational answers to theory questions.
I will not start threads exposing the groups (particularly littlemoon's) inability to provide rational answers to theory questions.

littlemoon

bbarnard

07-16-2004, 09:26 AM

Okay on the ride home last night I think I finally got it.

My teacher was having me play a C melodic minor over the F7. That is playing "up a 5th" because

F G A Bb C

C is up a fifth from F right?

I'm still trying to figure out why this works over the opening of the Chris Cain song which opens with the chords Bb13 to an A7(b13) in the intro. Thus most of the opening riff is played over these two chords. The song itself is in Dm. But

Bb C D Eb F or
A B C# D E

so it would seem that it would be either an E or F melodic minor riff and I thought he was playing a D melodic minor riff.

Now apparently I can't even get the "chalkboard" phrase that I have to write correct.

lance,
don't remember any of that stuff at Huguenot. Did get out my old yearbook last night. Found one Lance in the 10th grade class. Did you play JV football?

Tag

07-16-2004, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by bbarnard
Okay on the ride home last night I think I finally got it.

My teacher was having me play a C melodic minor over the F7. That is playing "up a 5th" because

F G A Bb C

C is up a fifth from F right?

I'm still trying to figure out why this works over the opening of the Chris Cain song which opens with the chords Bb13 to an A7(b13) in the intro. Thus most of the opening riff is played over these two chords. The song itself is in Dm. But

Bb C D Eb F or
A B C# D E

so it would seem that it would be either an E or F melodic minor riff and I thought he was playing a D melodic minor riff.

Now apparently I can't even get the "chalkboard" phrase that I have to write correct.

lance,
don't remember any of that stuff at Huguenot. Did get out my old yearbook last night. Found one Lance in the 10th grade class. Did you play JV football?

To make things real simple, (basic rule) "on a Dom7 chord, you can go up a 5th and play that minor chord". The different types of minor chords are just colors. You can use D-, D-Maj7,D-7, D-6, D-7b5. All just different colors of the same basic tonality. This goes for both a static Dom 7 (like in a vamp) or a functioning Dom7. (like when it resolves to the root chord) Have no idea if that helps, but thats the way I look at it now.

lhallam

07-16-2004, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by bbarnard
Okay on the ride home last night I think I finally got it.

My teacher was having me play a C melodic minor over the F7. That is playing "up a 5th" because

F G A Bb C

C is up a fifth from F right?

I'm still trying to figure out why this works over the opening of the Chris Cain song which opens with the chords Bb13 to an A7(b13) in the intro. Thus most of the opening riff is played over these two chords. The song itself is in Dm. But

Bb C D Eb F or
A B C# D E

so it would seem that it would be either an E or F melodic minor riff and I thought he was playing a D melodic minor riff.

Now apparently I can't even get the "chalkboard" phrase that I have to write correct.

lance,
don't remember any of that stuff at Huguenot. Did get out my old yearbook last night. Found one Lance in the 10th grade class. Did you play JV football?

Gonna have to defer to littlemoon as I don't know the tune but your theory is sound. (pun intended)

No JV that year, I woulda been in 10th grade though and had the longest hair in the school (big eyes round face). "Is that a boy or a girl"? I may be in a school band photo scowling away. I wasn't much into school that year and don't know if I'm in the year book. The only other Lance I knew there was Lance Calisch 10th grade & he didn't have long hair.

"Feast" was an EXCELLENT band. Mike Ess (gtr), Rob Carter (keys), Chip Miller (ld vcl), John Coppinger (bass), ? Jenkins?(drms), & Larry ? (gtr). They were doing Eagles before there was such a band. They could of gone far.

bbarnard

07-16-2004, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by lhallam
The only other Lance I knew there was Lance Calisch 10th grade & he didn't have long hair.

"Feast" was an EXCELLENT band. Mike Ess (gtr), Rob Carter (keys), Chip Miller (ld vcl), John Coppinger (bass), ? Jenkins?(drms), & Larry ? (gtr). They were doing Eagles before there was such a band. They could of gone far.

Lance Calisch was the one I saw. I'll have to look again and see if there is another. Is your last name Hallam? If so you aren't in the yearbook.

I do remember Mike Ess (not well but I remember the name).

lhallam

07-16-2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
Lance Calisch was the one I saw. I'll have to look again and see if there is another. Is your last name Hallam? If so you aren't in the yearbook.

I do remember Mike Ess (not well but I remember the name).

Yeah it's Hallam. No surprise I'm not in the book. I may be in a shot of the HS Band but prolly not. Bad year. White male, long hair, clarinet.

Tom Gross has taken some lessons from Mike Ess. He was an awesome player as a teen, Tom says he's a smoking jazzer. No doubt.

bbarnard

07-16-2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by littlemoon
Let me just say again that, in the key of C, "melodic minor up a 5th" means play G melodic minor over the C7, the static dominant I chord. This is the same scale, by name (the same collection of scale tones, but not beginning on the same note if played sequentially), as "C lydian dominant" aka "C lydian b7." You don't need an explanation to see that the scales are identical - G melodic minor = C lydian dominant. Your teacher might not like the nomenclature (maybe that's why he left GIT), but you can see the logic of it, cant you? G is "up a 5th" from C, and G melodic minor is the same as C lydian dominant.

Another question. Wouldn't this actually be called the F lydian b7 rather than the C lydian b7?

I thought the modes went like this:
C Ionian
D Dorian
E phrygian
F lydian

etc. for the modes of a C scale?

This modes naming thing has always confused me.

lhallam

07-16-2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
Another question. Wouldn't this actually be called the F lydian b7 rather than the C lydian b7?

I thought the modes went like this:
C Ionian
D Dorian
E phrygian
F lydian

etc. for the modes of a C scale?

This modes naming thing has always confused me.

F lydian b7 =

F G A B C D Eb

C lydian b7 =

C D E F# G A Bb

It's all in the 1/2 steps and whole steps and the scale degrees.

So for lydian b7 it's:

M2-M2-M2-m2-M2-m2-M2

So the key name of the of the mode depends upon the starting note aka tonic. If I start on A and have the same whole step 1/2 step relationships then it's A lydian b7.

If G is the tonic, then it's G lydian b7 etc.

Tag

07-16-2004, 04:59 PM

Modes UGGHH!! Even on a flat 5 chord, the pefect 5th works fine, and on a "normal" major or minor chord, you can use the flat 5 perfectly. On a Maj7 chord, the flat 7 works fine, and on a Dom 7, the Maj 7 sounds great. On a min 7 chord, you can use the natural 7 perfectly, and you can also use the flat7 on a minor maj7 chord. Modes...baahumbug.:mad:

lhallam

07-16-2004, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Tag
Modes UGGHH!! Even on a flat 5 chord, the pefect 5th works fine, and on a "normal" major or minor chord, you can use the flat 5 perfectly. On a Maj7 chord, the flat 7 works fine, and on a Dom 7, the Maj 7 sounds great. On a min 7 chord, you can use the natural 7 perfectly, and you can also use the flat7 on a minor maj7 chord. Modes...baahumbug.:mad:

Which is what I said a couple of posts back, that there's more 'n one way to approach it.

littlemoon

07-17-2004, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by bbarnard
Okay on the ride home last night I think I finally got it.

My teacher was having me play a C melodic minor over the F7. That is playing "up a 5th" because

F G A Bb C

C is up a fifth from F right?

I'm still trying to figure out why this works over the opening of the Chris Cain song which opens with the chords Bb13 to an A7(b13) in the intro. Thus most of the opening riff is played over these two chords. The song itself is in Dm. But

Bb C D Eb F or
A B C# D E

so it would seem that it would be either an E or F melodic minor riff and I thought he was playing a D melodic minor riff.

Now apparently I can't even get the "chalkboard" phrase that I have to write correct.

lance,
don't remember any of that stuff at Huguenot. Did get out my old yearbook last night. Found one Lance in the 10th grade class. Did you play JV football? In the Cain thing, Chris opens with an F melodic minor run over the Bb13. So, you are correct about what the scale should be (and, in fact, is). The F melodic minor is "up a fifth" from the Bb. The "up a fifth" is counted from the chord over which it is played (Bb), not from the key of the song (D- in this case).

littlemoon