Anyone digging into this book? Hal Galper Forward Motion Book

[proreverb68]

From Bach To Bebop A corrective approach to Jazz phrasing.

I'm just getting into it...on page 34 right now....

This is already influencing how I think, listen and play.....already...

He talks alot about the importance of choosing what and where to play chord tones vs passing tones on strong and weak beats among many, many other things...

here's a vid of him playing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg5W-ISzKVs

So you might guess..he is going to talk about more than simply strong and weak beats...in the book.

Looking forward to finding out who else is or has read it and what they got out of it as well.


Peace,

Andrew

[ToneGurus]

Great book. I'm mindful of what he says every time I practice. Probably had the biggest impact on how/where I construct lines as anything else I've ever bought on the subject.

Mike

[willhutch]

Very valuable info. I confess that I didn't work through the examples in the book. Nonetheless, reading the text changed the way I hear music and, to a significant extent, the way I play.

Big thumbs up.

[proreverb68]

Glad to see some of the same sentiment for this book being shared by others on the forum.
I skimmed through it quickly and already....I can tell It is going to change how I hear rhythm in my lines.
There is also a site you can visit to hear the examples if your piano chops aren't where you'd like them to be. You can find the link in the book itself.
I'm trying to go through it piece by piece...with patience... This might take me all winter...

Hmmm...so now im on page 38...

I have a question for you harmony masters...
In an example...He super imposes an Ab triad on the G7b9 chord.
I understand that this alters the chord by sharping the 5th etc.

Here is the first example...
In the key of Bb The progression goes like this: every chord gets 2 beats in a four beat measure.
BbMaj7 G7b9 Cmin7 F7b9 etc etc...

I thought he was using this as an example of playing chord tones on these chords to build a sort of guide tone melody...
He starts out with playing a half note on The Bb root of Bb MAjor7.
Then goes and plays the Eb over the G7b9 chord. He says he is thinking of it as the 5th tone of a superimposed Ab min triad (Ab,Cb,Eb) over the G7b9 chord.
I figured he might put the 3rd or 5th of g7 but I was thrown a good curve ball with the Aminor triad.

I realize the guy is light years ahead of me....so Im wiling to put on the extra work to decipher what I don't understand yet...

Now....heres where my understanding must need a boost...
I thought he was trying to put Chord tones on the strong beats...
I get that those notes work...as Ab is the b9 of G7b9...sure.
And...the rest of the notes work too... Cb is the 3rd and Eb can be seen as the Altered #5th (although i guess he just decided to alter it correct?)

But why the #5 of the G7? on A strong beat?

My other question is.......where did he get that chord?....Abmin triad.
And am I to assume he is just using it to alter the g7b9 for the fun of it or does it relate to the key in some obvious way? Some sort of modal interchange thing?
He does it again on the next two chords as well.

I see an area of study already.......may have some brushing up to do.

[RichardB]

I haven't read Hal's book, but I was very surprised at how poor Hal's performance is on that youtube link, especially rhythmically! He really is just not swinging at all on any of 'em. there are other links to the same show (w Bergonzi) and his playing is pretty much the same thruout. Bad feel and time and not swinging...Maybe he was having a bad nite...Seems weird that he goes on about fwd motion, but those clips dont have much at all???? Who knows???

[RichardB]

...looks like a cool book to check out...I'd like to get it...

...I've seen Hal play a few times and he's a monster...not many guys like him...

Yeah, I know Hal is well respected, but what about the link above? How does that work?

[russ6100]

proreverb68,

Just keep in mind that every note is a chord tone of some chord...

Not trying to sound mystikal or smart-assed here - but if portions of your lines are spelling triads and other such orderly constructs, the sheer strength of these structures provide the weight and melody needed for the ear to "buy" into it.

But I shouldn't say too much as I haven't read the book....

Pleasure to see a local (Seattle) guy on bass in that clip (Jeff Johnson)...

[KRosser]

I haven't read Hal's book, but I was very surprised at how poor Hal's performance is on that youtube link, especially rhythmically! He really is just not swinging at all on any of 'em. there are other links to the same show (w Bergonzi) and his playing is pretty much the same thruout. Bad feel and time and not swinging...Maybe he was having a bad nite...Seems weird that he goes on about fwd motion, but those clips dont have much at all???? Who knows???

I love his playing on that clip linked on the OP. Love it. And that is such a beautiful, imaginative and swinging solo.

I have Hal's book and I think there's some great stuff in it, but like most jazz method books I think it's best viewed as another tool in the toolbox, even if it's a very useful tool.

I've had really great results using some of those techniques in the book on beginning improvisors that are often baffled by the 'scales over chords' technique that's often used.

[jimfog]

here's a vid of him playing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg5W-ISzKVs


Man, oh man...........what beautiful, deep playing. Creative, without being self-consciously "clever". Incredibly locked-in.

Off to buy some more Galper.....and his book.

Thanks!

- Jim

PS.....another example of my theory that pianists and horn players are SO far ahead of guitarists in this music.

[Lucidology]

Great book ... recommended it here last year ...

[benagain]

got it a couple months ago .. havent got into too much yet..

[TonyV]

Highly recommended book
I would recommend the e-book version as the examples play on your PC and you can change tempo and key.

In response to someones post on the chord tones and triads:

Yes every note is a chord tone of some chord but the point is that it is where the line resolves to is what your ear will lock unto into. The strong beats are on the 1 and 3 which are the targets of phrases.

You can play a line of triads all you want and it will be very weak. The structure of the line does not provide the weight, it is what is happening in the bar, do the lines target the strong 1 and/or 3 beats of the bars., it will not happen by happenstance of a sequence.

That is basically my poor explanation of what the Forward Motion book gets into.

The introduction of the book is free on Hal Galpers site, it explains it far better than I can in a text post

There are other books on this from Mike Longo and Bert Ligon, they are also very good. Galpers is an easier read and more examples and has audio.

[russ6100]

TonyV wrote:
Yes every note is a chord tone of some chord but the point is that it is where the line resolves to is what your ear will lock unto into. The strong beats are on the 1 and 3 which are the targets of phrases.

You can play a line of triads all you want and it will be very weak. The structure of the line does not provide the weight, it is what is happening in the bar, do the lines target the strong 1 and/or 3 beats of the bars., it will not happen by happenstance

I guess I should have made it clear that I wasn't necessarily talking about the strength of lines in the context of what HG is talking about in the book and I don't want to confuse the OP any further but some music doesn't make use of normal cadences and indeed, sometimes "resolution" doesn't really enter the picture.

In fact, even through a V7 - I cadence, some of the hippest lines I ever heard were when the soloist played over the barline and then never even addressed the I chord.

It's all context dependent....

[TonyV]

TonyV wrote:


I guess I should have made it clear that I wasn't necessarily talking about the strength of lines in the context of what HG is talking about in the book and I don't want to confuse the OP any further but some music doesn't make use of normal cadences and indeed, sometimes "resolution" doesn't really enter the picture.

In fact, even through a V7 - I cadence, some of the hippest lines I ever heard were when the soloist played over the barline and then never even addressed the I chord.

It's all context dependent....

Yes, if you don't know where the one is you can not play over the bar line. I think we are mixing up what we mean as where we resolve a line. I am not saying the progression dictates where you must resolve, but you must be targetting and whether you play through them or not the 1 and 3 are still the strong beats, you create tension by going through them, anticipating, delaying, etc. Just like you said context dictates.

[willhutch]

Here's a link to an old thread about the book:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=309753&highlight=galper

Here is are a couple of my contributions to that thread, thought it might shed more light on the book:

I read the book. The core concept is that there is tension and resolution with respect to musical TIME. In particular, beat 1 of a measure is the most stable, most 'resolved' moment in a measure of music. Therefore, effective musical statements tend to resolve at the 1 - 1 is the END of phrase. This contrasts with how we are taught in school, where 1 represents the beginning. Galper contends that we must learn to hear 1 as the resolution of the prior measure. Once we do so, we will start hearing music differenly and be more able to play like the masters, who tend to have excellent "foward motion". He lists Bach and Coltrane as musicians who exemplify this.

The practical emphasis of the book is to align harmonic tension/resolution with temporal tension/resolution. Essentially, this means putting chord tones on the beats. Galper shows how once you do this, you can surround those chord tones with virtually ANY other notes and you will make a coherent statement. This is where the chromatic stuff comes in.

Here's a little tidbit from the book.

16th notes. We are taught to count them as:
|1 e and a | 2 e and a | 3 e and a | 4 e and a|
I've inserted the "|" symbol to group 4 16ths together.

Per Galper's conception, the great musicians actually play straight 16ths so that we hear them grouped like this:

e and a 1| e and a 2| e and a 3| e and a 4| e and a 1|

The note that lands on the downbeats IS CONNECTED TO THE 3 PRIOR NOTES, not the 3 notes that follow. Groups of 16ths resolve on the beats, rather than beginning there.

To support this, he shows examples of a Bach piece and cites the work of some scholar that studied Bach.
http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/misc/progress.gif

[proreverb68]

Great way of putting it Hutch.



A good line often spells out or leads the listeners ear into the next chord early.....often times a beat and a half before it arrives... by using tones that fit in both the chord of the moment and the chord it is leading to.

Provides more bang when the big One does arrive.

[Washburnmemphis]

Highly recommended book
I would recommend the e-book version as the examples play on your PC and you can change tempo and key.


Note: Audio examples are also accessible if you buy the hard copy (see page 2 of the book), plus you can read the book away from the computer.

[ivers]

Yeah, I know Hal is well respected, but what about the link above? How does that work?

I dug the hell outta it, and I'm usually quite allergic to rhythmic cluelessness.

[dead of night]

So is it safe to say one should play chord tones on the strong beats?

[RichardB]

I dug the hell outta it, and I'm usually quite allergic to rhythmic cluelessness.

It wasn't only the rhythmic incoherence, but the ideas generally. Total chaotic gibberish on the most amateur level. The other link to them playing ATTYA is just as bad.
I actually felt like i was watching that classic english jazz spoof thing called "Jazz Club".

I know Hal is a decent player, so they must have been having a very bad gig, or maybe there was some tension in the band being resolved "on the bandstand"

[jimfog]

It wasn't only the rhythmic incoherence, but the ideas generally. Total chaotic gibberish on the most amateur level. The other link to them playing ATTYA is just as bad.
I actually felt like i was watching that classic english jazz spoof thing called "Jazz Club".


Oh thank god............somebody finally has had the guts to call out a lightweight pretender like Galper and give him a good "George-ing".

[tvegas99]

Thanks for the head's up, the book sounds very interesting to me...

[KRosser]

So is it safe to say one should play chord tones on the strong beats?

That's just the point of the exercise, to gain harmonic control of your single lines. Once you have it, you can put them wherever you want.

[KRosser]

It wasn't only the rhythmic incoherence, but the ideas generally. Total chaotic gibberish on the most amateur level. The other link to them playing ATTYA is just as bad.


I just listened to it again. It sounds really beautiful to me.

I loved ATTYA also...I wish they hadn't faded it on Hal's solo...I really wanted to hear the whole thing.

I've heard lots of people say this kind of stuff about jazz being played at a really high level...it doesn't bother me.

[scottl]

I dig this piano solo..... Joey C, one of my faves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGNkLImBIkQ Here is Joey killing Giant Steps. Some sick time feel and rhythmic control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMuTvV2CQY8&feature=related (not a my guy is better than your guy...just posting to hiop people to Joey who probably loves Galper!)

Here is a smoking Galper solo fwiw. He is a great player (although I did not care for that You Tube for my tastes). http://scottlernermusic.com/shawn/RockorJazz.mp3 This is a cut off of John Scofield's release Rough House. I originally put it up to refute Tag's claim that Scofield can't play jazz! Hence the title.

[ivers]

I loved ATTYA also...I wish they hadn't faded it on Hal's solo...I really wanted to hear the whole thing.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhUsgl__n4

[RichardB]

Scotty,
I know you hear this exactly like I do....
I fixed the post above to make it clear it wasn't the clip you posted. Hal sounds good on that. The youtube clips sounds like a spoof from this series (which is totally hilarious):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebUMhJAKSM

[jzucker]

I haven't read Hal's book, but I was very surprised at how poor Hal's performance is on that youtube link, especially rhythmically! He really is just not swinging at all on any of 'em. there are other links to the same show (w Bergonzi) and his playing is pretty much the same thruout. Bad feel and time and not swinging...Maybe he was having a bad nite...Seems weird that he goes on about fwd motion, but those clips dont have much at all???? Who knows???

I've heard Galper play some great stuff but I agree with RichardB here. This one is not in the pocket and there's no forward motion in this solo. I've heard him tear it up though. he can play. This just isn't one of his better performances.

His book is great by the way.

[jimfog]

Woo-Hoo......here we go with the taking sides BS and drawing arbitrary lines in the sand.

Should be fun.

Where's Tag??

[jzucker]

Woo-Hoo......here we go with the taking sides BS and drawing arbitrary lines in the sand.

Should be fun.

Where's Tag??

No Jim. No taking sides. Don't flatter yourself. Richard's an amazing player, one of the 3 or 4 players on this board I go out of my way to listen to when he says something on guitar or in writing. That being said, I disagree with him often and visa versa. I have no motivation to support him on something this principaled and important a topic if I didn't agree.

[ivers]

How so? Galper is a fabulous player. This just ain't his best work. I think lots of times folks will defend *ANYTHING* a player plays when it's someone they really like. I've found myself doing this many times with Jimi or Stevie or Trane or Metheny. Looking back at it, I was defending the legacy and not a particular performance. This one's pretty obvious.

Fair enough, I might have a bias regarding Galper, and hear him in context of that, but trying my best to be sincere about it, I still like what he's doing... I don't doubt you, Richard and Scott are sincere on this, for the record. No turf war here for me, just a healthy disagreement about a musical performance. :cool:

[Brian Scherzer]

Stop the personalized insults towards each other. I deleted some posts, but kept the thread going. Say what you need to say without digging into each other.

[ivers]

Stop the personalized insults towards each other. I deleted some posts, but kept the thread going. Say what you need to say without digging into each other.

Let me say that I didn't mean what I said as an insult to Richard, Jack and Scott, and I'm sorry for coming across other than as making a good-natured, humorous remark about people/players I respect. Not complaining about the deletion, though, just wanted to clear things up.

[KRosser]

Things like this are what made me hate the jazz scene. It's not possible that Jack Zucker and RichardB disliked a performance and Jim Fogerty and I liked it?

I don't understand why this is a problem or something that needs to be resolved or explained.

I still like the performance, very much. While I have nothing but the highest esteem for Joey Calderazzo, I'd much rather listen to that Galper clip than the Love Supreme clip Scott posted.

Scott and I spoke over the phone about it. We can be friendly and have different reactions to the clip. I don't see why this has to be about people's abilities.

If RichardB is that good a player, I'd like to hear him - I don't say that as a challenge, but seriously - I like hearing good players...where can I hear you, Richard?

[KRosser]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhUsgl__n4

Thanks!

I loved that too.

[jzucker]

Things like this are what made me hate the jazz scene. It's not possible that Jucker and RichardB disliked a performance and Jim Fogerty and I liked it?

I don't understand why this is a problem or something that needs to be resolved or explained.


That was my whole point. It's not a problem until folks start getting insulted and taking personal shots at each other. As I said, I love Galper and I've heard great things about his book.

[KRosser]

That was my whole point. It's not a problem until folks start getting insulted and taking personal shots at each other. As I said, I love Galper and I've heard great things about his book.

I'm so sorry Jack...I just realized I messed up your name...it's only 6:45 out here and I had a very late gig!!! I'll fix it immediately!!!

[scottl]

I love Galpers playing! He kills on that Sco clip I posted....IMHO.

[proreverb68]

So anyone else reading and or working with this book?

What else have you gotten out of it?

damn I love music!

[ThugLife]

they're still making those book things, huh?

[proreverb68]

So a month later...I'm still into this book, moving slowwwwwwwwly and taking small bites.

[Lucidology]

So a month later...I'm still into this book, moving slowwwwwwwwly and taking small bites.

That's how I use it too ... almost like a reference book for ideas of playing improvement

[tvegas99]

many thanks for the great book alert

Forward Motion is really wonderful, love the audio examples- 50 pages into it and so much info - I wish I would have gotten this book years ago!