Harmonic Minor, Phrygian & Dimished relations via Malmsteen

[Free]

Hi, all. I was watching an interesting Malmsteen video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNsccTEmIPg&feature=PlayList&p=579DC3C9D9AA7AB8&index=41 ) in which he reveals how much of his playing is based on the relationship of Harmonic Minor, Phrygian and Diminished scales. I can see the close relationship of say A harmonic minor to E Phrygian Dominant, yet I'm not exactly clear on what Malmsteen means when he states "You want to link them (A harmonic minor and E Phrygian) together with the third in the phrygian diminished, and all of the sudden you have all those three things perfectly together".

The bottom line is that he states the diminished scale links together harmonic minor and phrygian and that this is the "bread and butter" of his compositional technique. Can someone please elaborate on this? I can't quite crystallize what he means exactly. Thanks much.

[russ6100]

Yeah - A Harmonic Minor is E Phrygian Dominant. It's got a natural 3rd instead of a minor 3rd, like E Phrygian.

Makes it sound even more stereotypically Eee-JIP'-Shyne!

Remember to take Yngwie's theoretical spoutings with a grain of salt. I can't quite remember where, but I've heard him giving some theoretical explanations that were just....highly suspect.....

[Luke]

Yngwie is the master of playing from the higher register back towards the nut.

[Free]

Yeah - A Harmonic Minor is E Phrygian Dominant. It's got a natural 3rd instead of a minor 3rd, like E Phrygian.

Makes it sound even more stereotypically Eee-JIP'-Shyne!

Remember to take Yngwie's theoretical spoutings with a grain of salt. I can't quite remember where, but I've heard him giving some theoretical explanations that were just....highly suspect.....

Oh - so Malmsteen is refering to E phrygian dominant. That makes more sense. I'm still not clear on what he means by the diminished scale "linking them (A harm minor and E phrygian dominant) perfectly together" though?

And, I know what you mean about Malmsteen's theoretical terminology getting mixed up - he calls a simple major 7th interval an augmented 7th in the video, which makes no sense of course.

[Free]

...so does this make a lick of sense or am I sounding like Yngwie, wouldn't mind playing like Yngwie

Thank you very much for trying to help, Austin, but honestly I understand all the theoretical tools he's refering to already. What I don't get is his personal logic or system of the diminished scale linking the harmonic minor and phrygian dominant scales together. This is what I'm trying to get better insight into. Best.

[rockinrob]

That video is hilarious.

My advice- don't think of scales, think of chords. Don't think of A Harmonic Minor and E Phrygian dominant, think of Amin/maj7 and E7b9. Then you can use a diminished chord to lead to either.

Let's say you're leading to A minor- you can use Ab diminished (or B, Db, and F diminished- same thing). This is often called subbing the V over the I. What that means is you're leading to the I chord (Amin) with that chord's V (E7). But instead of E7 we're thinking E7b9 which is the same as F dim/Abdim/Bdim, etc.

You could also lead to Amin with a Bbdim chord (or of course any of the other 3 dim chords within Bbdim).

[gennation]

I have this little tutorial on some thoughts about the Harmonic Minor scale and Yngwie: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/cop-some-of-that-yngwie-and-harmonic-minor-diminished-sound-t29.html?sid=60499d861d30c276ec2c17c562e01528

It deals with some of the constant sounds in his music and in his playing where the Harmonic Minor/Phrygian Dominant/Diminished sound are used (which is quite a bit on his first two albums).

[Free]

I have this little tutorial on some thoughts about the Harmonic Minor scale and Yngwie: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/cop-some-of-that-yngwie-and-harmonic-minor-diminished-sound-t29.html?sid=60499d861d30c276ec2c17c562e01528

It deals with some of the constant sounds in his music and in his playing where the Harmonic Minor/Phrygian Dominant/Diminished sound are used (which is quite a bit on his first two albums).

Thanks, Gennation - you da man!

[Free]

That video is hilarious. I couldn't agree more.

My advice- don't think of scales, think of chords. Don't think of A Harmonic Minor and E Phrygian dominant, think of Amin/maj7 and E7b9. Then you can use a diminished chord to lead to either.

Let's say you're leading to A minor- you can use Ab diminished (or B, Db, and F diminished- same thing). This is often called subbing the V over the I. What that means is you're leading to the I chord (Amin) with that chord's V (E7). But instead of E7 we're thinking E7b9 which is the same as F dim/Abdim/Bdim, etc.

You could also lead to Amin with a Bbdim chord (or of course any of the other 3 dim chords within Bbdim).

Thanks for that chord logic - very helpful, Rob.

[gennation]

Thanks, Gennation - you da man!

No problem. Here's a boat load of info for getting around the Diminished scales, ala Jimmy Herring: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/some-thoughts-on-copping-that-jimmy-herring-diminished-vibe-t6.html

Fun stuff.

[JonR]

I couldn't agree more.



Thanks for that chord logic - very helpful, Rob.Just to confirm (and expand on) Rob's interpretation:
The HW diminished scale fits a 7b9 chord - which is the same as saying the WH dim scale can be played from the 3rd of the chord (or 5th or 7th).
E7b9 = E-G#-B-D-F
E7b9 is really G#dim7 (=Bdim7=Ddim7=Fdim7) with an E bass.
G#dim7 is the diatonic vii chord in A harmonic minor, and resolves naturally to Am.
E HW dim scale = E-F-G-G#-A#-B-C#-D

All the non-chord tones in the HW dim scale make great chromatic approaches to the chord tones (of the 7b9), mostly from a half-step below. But they also make good resolutions on to chord tones on a following Am (esp if you make it a melodic minor chord, with a major 6th, 7th and/or 9th).
The A harmonic minor/E phrygian dominant scale doesn't do either of these things so well.

[Free]

I wrote up a simple scale-based approach below too, since I understand what Malmsteen is saying (in his cryptic way) now. I actually prefer a scale-based theoretical approach to a chord-based approach when it comes to Malmsteen and neo-classical rock in general, as it's really the scales/leads that make these particular songs, with simple underlying chord foundations. Chord-based approaches are great for Jazz, etc though, of course. Thanks for your help, guys.

__________________________________________________

Same exact key notes (A Harmonic Minor) used for all the following scales and diminished arpeggios below:


I (A) Harmonic Minor: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#
V (E) Phrygian Dominant: E, F, G#, A, B, C, D


Diminished arpeggios – consider the following arpeggios for bridging both these scales. I believe this is what Malmsteen meant - he was refering to diminished arpeggios more than diminished scales neccessarily. He was playing arpeggios when he made the diminished references.

F Dim: F, G#, B, D
G# Dim: G#, B, D, F
B Dim: B, D, F, G#
D Dim: D, F, G#, B

[buddastrat]

Nice job on the theory end of it guys. It's more than Yngwie really thinks about. I like that video, it's pretty recent and shows he's still doin' his thing. It's funny when the guy asks him about his picking and he says he just does it and doesn't know. But he really does, he just likes to play to the mystery of it. When you figure out what he's doing with his pick, it's not hard to get that speed and play right along with that video. He's great at the sleight of hand thing.

If you study enough of his licks, you don't see much diminished scales. Just diminished arpeggios over the V chord. And believe it or not he bases all his licks off two or three patterns of the harmonic minor scale, and that's it. Occasional natural or melodic mixed in. He uses these same patterns in every song and every solo. He makes it sound a bit more involved than what he's really doing.

He's got WAY too much echo on there!

[Free]

If you study enough of his licks, you don't see much diminished scales. Just diminished arpeggios over the V chord. And believe it or not he bases all his licks off two or three patterns of the harmonic minor scale, and that's it. Occasional natural or melodic mixed in. He uses these same patterns in every song and every solo. He makes it sound a bit more involved than what he's really doing. He's got WAY too much echo on there!


Well said, Buddastrat. This is exactly what I've found too regarding, Malmsteen - all of the above. And, it's really something how few theoretical tools and pattern types Malmsteen actually seems to employ. He goes through those scale patterns so incredibly fast and efficiently, which is helped by the fact that he is apparently using many of the same patterns over and over. This is no slight to him, of course - he's a virtuoso clearly. It's just interesting to see what make his music tick.

[gennation]

If you study enough of his licks, you don't see much diminished scales. Just diminished arpeggios over the V chord. And believe it or not he bases all his licks off two or three patterns of the harmonic minor scale, and that's it. Occasional natural or melodic mixed in. He uses these same patterns in every song and every solo. He makes it sound a bit more involved than what he's really doing.

He's got WAY too much echo on there!

You're right. That's pretty much what my tutorial explains.