Guitar Playability : Fight or Flight?

[LowWatt]

Just a preference question.

What do you like better, a guitar that puts up a bit of a fight or one that plays effortlessly? Keep tone out of the question. This is 100% about playability.

I would have always said I'm best off with my easiest playing guitar (my SG), but I've been listening to my band's recordings lately and realizing that all the best new parts I've created are on my Jazzmaster. I'm starting to think that it's because I have to fight it a little to play it. It's not like the SG where it sustains and sounds solid just by holding it. With the Jazzmaster, I really need to dig in to get something good out of it, but when I do, it's better than everything else.

So, fight or flight? Do you prefer to fight your guitar because it takes you to new places musically or do you prefer a guitar that plays effortlessly so that the ideas in your head flow out freely?

NOTE : This is assuming that the guitar is well set up on either side. I'm just saying that some guitars (even well set up) are harder to play than others. I tend to get my best ideas out of those harder to play guitars.

[FrankieSixxxgun]

If I have to fight a guitar to play it I get it set up by a luthier. You're never supposed to fight a guitar IMO. That's like fighting a socket wrench while building an engine. A guitar is a tool.

[RGB]

What we need here is a "both" option. I love my Tele for the fight it puts up, but my Anderson was so smooth and easy that I had to love it as well. The right tool for the job, I guess!

Had to vote for the fighter, though!

[puckhead]

I have enough trouble playing without the guitar putting up a fight.

"nice and easy does it every time."

[sickboy79]

I personally prefer my guitars set up to where I have to play them rather than the "guitar playing itself." What I mean is I prefer a little bit higher and stiffer action, and more neck relief than most folks. I find that guitars with super straight necks and super low action may initially feel faster/smoother but, I find that they don't have the same resonance and singing quality than one setup how I prefer.

Hope that makes sense - so I'm probably in the "fight" category! LOL!

[wes37]

I wouldn't say "fight", but a guitar needs to give some push back, by which I mean not be TOO easy to play. There is a lot of nuance to great music and if a guitar is too effortless, then it's actually harder to dial in the nuance.

If you don't believe me, ask Jeff Beck.

In my case, I put heavier strings on my easiest guitar to play (Anderson) to get the "push back" that I like from a guitar. My Suhr is easy to play, but it's dialed in just right. My Fender Strat could give a little less, but they're bitchy by design. :0)

Oh, the jury's out on my LP...some days I fight, some days I don't. I guess it's close.

[Flinto2002]

I don't get the whole notion that a guitar that fights you, is going to somehow take you to new places musically.

That sounds like making virtue of necessity. If a guitar fights you, it is either set up improperly or not the guitar for you. If you can't express yourself on a guitar that plays like butter, why would you be any better on a baseball bat neck, 7.5" radius, vintage frets, 11's with slide action?

[rah3]

Agree with RGB. I'm in the "Both" camp, depending on the instrument. Love my Parker FLY and Esquire with 9's for the snappy tone and ease of playability, but I also play my others including baritones and bari 12 string with heavier strings and higher action for tone. The higher action and heavier strings make it easier to play slide on those instruments as well.

-RAH3

[mprvise]

If I want to be pushed to new places by the guitar I'll pull one out of the closet that hasn't been played in a while. For the most part I prefer them to play nice.

[RGB]

I don't get the whole notion that a guitar that fights you, is going to somehow take you to new places musically.

That sounds like making virtue of necessity. If a guitar fights you, it is either set up improperly or not the guitar for you. If you can't express yourself on a guitar that plays like butter, why would you be any better on a baseball bat neck, 7.5" radius, vintage frets, 11's with slide action?



Because the fight makes you approach everything differently...and a well set up Tele is going to fight more than any short scale guitar, but it's still set up properly and IS the guitar for me...in some situations! That's why you need at least one of each!

[LowWatt]

Because the fight makes you approach everything differently...and a well set up Tele is going to fight more than any short scale guitar, but it's still set up properly and IS the guitar for me...in some situations! That's why you need at least one of each!

Exactly. I have my jazzmaster set up perfectly, but because of the radius, bridge break angle (jazzmaster reality if you want it to sound right) and the high action that I like for some of my tremolo picking styles, I can only play it by really digging in and strangling the neck.

By fight, I definitely don't mean a poorly set up guitar. I just mean a guitar that really forces you to dig in to get something out of it. Old baseball necked Teles are a great example of this. They can be set up perfectly and have tone of the gods, but if you're not willing to dig in and get nasty against that fat neck and long scale, you probably aren't going to get every last drop out of it.

My SG on the other hand, sounds like me with very little effort and that effortless playing somehow (maybe psychologically) usually leads me into my owns long standing cliches and habits.

[LowWatt]

If you can't express yourself on a guitar that plays like butter, why would you be any better on a baseball bat neck, 7.5" radius, vintage frets, 11's with slide action?

That's exactly the issue I face (and a perfect description of how I like my Jazzmaster set up).

Here are a few reasons (they are personal and definitely don't apply to everyone)

- If I have to fight a guitar to get the most out of it, I can't sustain that energy for a whole show and my playing gets more dynamic. When I dig in, I really have to put my all in it. Forced effort I guess.

- Big vintage style necks change the way my left hand sits and the way I fret. The simple act of taking my hand a little out of what is familiar and easy, breaks me from my bad habit of letting out a lot of cliches without thinking.

Essentially, I think it's because I'm lazy. My SG, with it's thin neck and shorter scale, allows me to be lazy and get a lot from a little effort. I will embarass myself on my Jazzmaster if I don't really dig in and feel like there is more of a give and take between me and the instrument.

Might not apply to all. FWIW my band does lots of intense rhythym work with heavy grooves and large orchestra sounding instrumental compositions. I need to go from gentle whisper to tearing down mountains repeatedly and often in the same song. Having a guitar that can go from weak and wimpy to huge and powerful is an absolute asset in the music we create.

[buddastrat]

I hate a low action playing guitar. For one thing, the tone is always plinky. But I know you asked to leave tone out so I'll give another reason. I don't want a guitar that plays like a girl scout can play it, because fingers get a little weak and lazy. I like to be able to pick up any old guitar and play it well.

I like a little fight in the guitar anyhow, keeps you on yer toes.

But the biggie is tone. Higher action gives a fuller/less fret buzzin' tone. Ooops, sorry again!

[Help!I'maRock!]

as a writing tool, we always hear about guitars that the song "just came out of". sometimes those guitar play like crap. but that doesn't mean i should set up my guitar to play like crap so i get get inspiration out of it.

all of my guitars are set up to play as well as possible. but they all end up feeling and sounding different, and sometimes the songs just come out of them. sometimes the song comes out of one guitar but sounds better on another guitar. but i don't buy the argument that you have to fight a guitar.

[LowWatt]

...and bari 12 string with heavier strings and higher action for tone.

Bari 12 string = awesome

[MuseCafeChris]

I prefer a balance between the two. Straight neck, but with higher action.

This thread is exactly why everyone should learn how to do their own setups. How can a "luthier" or "tech" know exactly how to set up your guitar?

[LowWatt]

I prefer a balance between the two. Straight neck, but with higher action.

This thread is exactly why everyone should learn how to do their own setups. How can a "luthier" or "tech" know exactly how to set up your guitar?

Exactly. 16 years playing, with a little bit of touring time, and 5 years working in a major music store, I know how I like my guitars set up and I would never expect a luthier who didn't really know me to be able to hit all the fine points in my set up.

I'm always shocked how many people seem to believe one way is best or proper for all. A guitar is such a personal tool that half of the fun is figuring out what works best for you. That's why I started this thread, because over the last little while I'm really starting to like my personal quirks with the guitar and I find that if I embrace them instead of trying to fix them, I get more original work and more of my own voice comes out.

I'm not saying fight the guitar to find your own voice, that's just what works for me. I'm saying figure out what brings out your best ideas and go with that no matter how much it goes against the grain.

[jaycee]

Definitely a little of both. If a guitar 'plays itself' i find i don't have to think about it and that leads me to get a little sloppy. But i don't want to have to 'concentrate' on playing, make sense? I don't want to fight the thing but i like to 'reach' a little. Medium low action. Effortless bends get sloppier for me too. There is a sweet spot.

[bluesjuke]

I like a good resistance in playing.
I'm in the "both" catagory but it also depends on each individual guitar.

There is too easy.

I don't play improperly (read badly) set up guitars.
That's not my definition of a guitar giving a fight.
In other words nothing on the guitar need's to be fixed or adjusted.

I love my Fenders for this and they are very smooth but give a fight.
My Gibsons are set up to optimum conditions and play like a dream but they are not set up fpr little girls either.

[90wreck]

When I fight,,,I have licks that are for a "Fighting guitar" and stick with them.
Playability.....Play whatever you want.
I don't like to fight an axe, but have a few that I do.

[Soapbarstrat]

I don't get the whole notion that a guitar that fights you, is going to somehow take you to new places musically.



I agree. A hard to play guitar makes me not want to play it much, if at all.

But, I don't have enough time to play as much as I would really like to.

I like having a guitar that plays so well, I can avoid a lot of practicing, but I play as if I practice quite a lot.

I like a pretty low setup. High E at 1/32 or a few thou higher @ 12th. about 3/64" for the low E.

If there were issues with my frets, relief, etc, then I'd get a bunch of "plinky" tones with that setup. But if I keep it all maintained, then I can play hard and sound good like that.

It's a PITA to keep on top of guitars like that. Thin piece of wood with all that tension, and changing enough over time to take you to buzz city before you know it.

Most of the time, when another guitarist picks up mine, they are jealous of how much better my guitar plays than theirs. (non-guitarists usually think I sound better than other players I have played with too. I guess that's the most important part).

[DrumBob]

I used to think I wanted a guitar that was hard to play, that it would make a better player, so I kept buying and selling Telecasters, trying hard to master them. It never happened. I'm done with Teles. If I want a fighter, I'll stay with my Strats. They're authoritative enough.

Give me a guitar that plays smoothly and effortlessly. That's why I'm favoring Gibson or Gibson-style guitars now.

[HoboMan]

Low & smooth!

[gunnar1104]

My PRS just lies there and does what it's told, but my strat likes it rough and has some fight in it. When I have to fight it a little there is more emotion in my playing, but overall a mix of both.

[atomicmassunit]

I like the guitar to play very easy. I set my action super low, but with 11 guage strings at std pitch. I get a big tone but easy playability. If a guitar has high action or a poor setup, it gets a big FAIL in my opinion. I don't want a guitar to get in between me and playing exactly what I want to play.

[Strat58]

hi I used to play with high action and tought man I have a great sound, I have changed that lately because now I want to play with more ease. Suddely solo's of mine favourite players are coming out of mine fingers even I can copy the tones of them, was I wrong al those year s? btw I play with bass 5/64 and treble 3/64 now
Peace Strat58

[Steve73]

Yeah, I would say both too, depends on the guitar. With my PRS, it plays pretty effortlessly even with .11's and I like it. With my Tele and my Strat, I like them to fight a bit. You adapt your playing to the guitar and that is what will lead you into new places.

[jaycee]

With my Tele and my Strat, I like them to fight a bit. You adapt your playing to the guitar and that is what will lead you into new places.

Thanks, that's the description i couldn't find.

[LowWatt]

Yeah, I would say both too, depends on the guitar. With my PRS, it plays pretty effortlessly even with .11's and I like it. With my Tele and my Strat, I like them to fight a bit. You adapt your playing to the guitar and that is what will lead you into new places.

Very well said.

[musicman1]

It is true that some gtrs respond and sound better w/a little more resistance than others. I cant image, for the way I play at least, playing w/the strings practicaly laying on the fingerboard although alot of guys do. Im sure there are real advantages to super low action but I dont believe its right for me at all.

Also higher action is all relative to the string gauge, the neck relief, fret height etc.

[Bankston]

Agree that it depends on the guitar. Also depends on the style of music I'm playing. If I'm playing an 80's number with a lot of fast runs, I want a guitar without any speed bumps. For blues or country styles, I want to be able to dig in more.

[morlll]

I like a guitar that plays itself.

Mine are at home right now playing themselves.

My Tele is easy too play.

People have complained that my guitars are too easy.

That's why they are mine.

I had a guy want to raise the strings on my Blues Bird at a jam.
He wanted to "dig in".

No, you can do that with your guitar.

I play different guitars a little differently, but none of them are hard to play.

When I was a kid I had guitars that were hard to play (I take that's what fight means).

I never want to have to fight with a guitar.

It doesn't make it better for me just harder. I like play to be play not work.

Most of you guys probably play way better than me, but I'm not up for a fight when I play.

[Dirk Diggler]

Fight...is the wrong word. I would say "work it" or "play it". I despise these girly guitars with tiny necks and superlow action even though I am a shredder wannabe.

[Padraic]

I have to agree with the posters who said "both." My Parker Artist is the best playing guitar I have ever felt, and with it I feel like I can do anything (now if only I COULD do anything!) The other main guitars I play with are an early 70's SG-I (the student model with only one mini humbucker) and a Tele. Both of those guitars, while set up well, "fight" me. And I fight back. Sometimes it takes me someplace new, sometimes not.

I can see merit in both.

[pbradt]

I play a Telecaster. You figure it out.

Men play Teles.

[kimock]

As long as you're not expecting the guitar to come to you, either/or is fine.
Fight gives me much better results onstage, flight is nice for sittin' around the house low-impact exploration.

It's just trade-offs. .

[tonedaddy]

Because the fight makes you approach everything differently...and a well set up Tele is going to fight more than any short scale guitar

For you.
Certainly not for me.


By fight, I definitely don't mean a poorly set up guitar. I just mean a guitar that really forces you to dig in to get something out of it. Old baseball necked Teles are a great example of this. They can be set up perfectly and have tone of the gods, but if you're not willing to dig in and get nasty against that fat neck and long scale, you probably aren't going to get every last drop out of it.

Again, for you, and not a generalization you can make for everyone else.
I play mostly Teles, and all have 1" necks, big strings, high action.
I find them the easiest guitars to play I own.
I'd say I might have to "fight" the pickups/tone controls as I'd say they're more revealing to my playing,
but I'd never describe the guitars as ones that I fight.

Give me a Les Paul w/ it's shorter scale length, humbuckers and inevitably thinner necks, and I have to fight tooth and nail to get what I want out of it.

Different strokes for different folks.

This thread is exactly why everyone should learn how to do their own setups. How can a "luthier" or "tech" know exactly how to set up your guitar?

If you know the exact specs you require for your setups, why can't someone else do them for you?
Touring pros rely on their techs to do exactly that, right?

Now if you don't know what you need, that's a different issue than who does it, imo.

No, it's not...

Yes, it is....
;)

You adapt your playing to the guitar and that is what will lead you into new places.Fight...is the wrong word. I would say "work it" or "play it".

I agree with both of you.

[LowWatt]

For you.
Certainly not for me.




Again, for you, and not a generalization you can make for everyone else.
I play mostly Teles, and all have 1" necks, big strings, high action.
I find them the easiest guitars to play I own.
I'd say I might have to "fight" the pickups/tone controls as I'd say they're more revealing to my playing,
but I'd never describe the guitars as ones that I fight.

Give me a Les Paul w/ it's shorter scale length, humbuckers and inevitably thinner necks, and I have to fight tooth and nail to get what I want out of it.

Different strokes for different folks.



If you know the exact specs you require for your setups, why can't someone else do them for you?
Touring pros rely on their techs to do exactly that, right?

Now if you don't know what you need, that's a different issue than who does it, imo.



Yes, it is....
;)



I agree with both of you.

Very fair assessment.

[Flyin' Brian]

I want the music to just come without thinking "damn this thing is kicking my ass".

[kimock]

If you know the exact specs you require for your setups, why can't someone else do them for you?
Touring pros rely on their techs to do exactly that, right?



You're joking, right?
And the part about the guitar being a wrench, that's just f'n around, say?

Nobody would spend all their credibility in one place like that, would they?

Nah. . .that's too funny, huh?

Woo Hoo!!

[CharAznable]

I need really high tension for me not to get sloppy while picking fast.

[tonedaddy]

You're joking, right?

Let me clarify what I'm talking about.

I can do my own setups, but may choose to work with the tech I've used for many years for various services, including setups.
Just as I know how to change a water pump on a car, there might be any number of reasons (not the least being my time may be more valuable to me) I'll simply let my mechanic fix it.

I know what string guages/brand I want, and the string heights/action I want.
That helps me determine nut slot depth and other nut modifications.
Intonation? Not much proprietary there that is only in my head, imo.
Relief/bridge adjustments draw from intonation/string height preference, and leads to avoiding fret buzz, and my tech knows how what side of relief I like to cheat towards (if needed).
Fret buzz might be removed by adjusting my bridge saddle height, and if it doesn't, then the offending fret might need particular attention. Most every reliable tech I've ever used does way better fret work than I could ever do (no matter how hard I tried), so I'm always glad to hand off those issues. My tech knows how I like my fret ends, and the fretboard/neck rolled, if needed. Again, I don't see these fret issues as something proprietary that would lead me to a different end if I did it instead of my tech doing it, imo, particularly when they do really great fret work I like.

Admittedly, for pickup height adjustments I'll largely do final tweaks myself, but my tech can get me substantially where I want to go because he knows what tones I live in.

Now, out of everything I've listed above, I don't see much that's so proprietary and exists so exclusively in my head that I can't communicate it to my tech who can deliver it substantially, if not close to spot on, like I want it.
And why is that I've regularly communicated that information back & forth to my tech who's done enough setups for me that the guitars come back setup virtually spot on to where I want them?
Furthermore, why is it that I've talked to more than one tech who have/had full-time musicians for clients that have described essentially what I've communicated above, and those pros are satisfied customers for setups provided by those techs?

Finally, I trust you remember I also said this in my post:
Now if you don't know what you need, that's a different issue than who does it, imo.

I'll use this analogy which I hope ends up making sense.

Setting up a race car to race on a particular track is orders of magnitude more complicated than setting up a guitar.
Great drivers know exactly the kind of response the need to get the "feel" of the car where it needs to be for them on that track for the particular environmental conditions that day. For Nascar drivers that feel is often generalized as "loose" or "tight".
And as an analogy to our discussion, those match up similarly to what we're describing in this thread as "fight" or "flight".

Now those great drivers also can grab their tools, get under the body and make every adjustment that needs to be made from ground zero to get the setup in the car as loose or as tight as they want it. They could also do modfications to dial it in during the practice or the race. But do you see the drivers hopping out of the car every time an adjustment needs to be made to change that fundamental response?

Of course not.
They know what they need, and they can communicate it to their crew chief who sends it down the line to the crew and they make the adjustments.

Now, could the crew chief and driver accomplish any of this if the driver didn't know what he wants in his setup, and couldn't communicate it effectively to his crew chief?
Of course not.

My original comment clearly said this ability to know what you want and to communicate it effectively to a tech is fundamental to allowing them to do a setup to your specifications.

Should a guitarist know how to do setups to get what they want out of a guitar?
Absolutely.
I simply believe a guitarist that knows how to do a setup and get the results they want can communicate that knowledge to a qualified tech who can translate that information into reality.


Does that now make sense?
If not, perhaps we're talking about two different things?


I truly do want to know why my approach/method of working with my tech can't deliver results that I could only reach myself.
I'd also like to be able to improve my results if my approach to doing setups is substantially off-base. It's just the way I learned to do setups, and how I was taught the different steps of the setup are interrelated.

I guess what I'm really interested in is simply this:
What results are you achieving by doing your own setups that I can't achieve by my approach,
and/or that would be impossible to communicate to my tech and have him deliver?


And to be clear, Steve, I have immense respect and admiration for you, your talent and your music.
I'm not here to boast about anything I know, nor to argue with anyone, nor to attack their credibility.
I'm here for one reason, to learn from you and/or anyone else.
I sincerely hope you'll extend the same spirit to me in return.

And the part about the guitar being a wrench, that's just f'n around, say?

Nobody would spend all their credibility in one place like that, would they?

Nah. . .that's too funny, huh?

Woo Hoo!!

Hey, you're assuming I have any credibility!?!?
:D

Of course, the comment about the wrench was joking.
lalaland's direct reply struck me as deserving it's own 3 word reply.
That's why I used the ;), to indicate I was jesting, just $hits & giggles.
I'm pretty sure lalaland got the joke since he followed up in kind.
;)

[darth_vader]

I play Les Pauls with .09-.42 on them, what do you think?

[kimock]

Let me clarify what I'm talking about.

Perhaps we're talking about two different things?

I truly do want to know why my approach/method of working
with my tech can't deliver results that I could only reach myself.
I'd also like to be able to improve my results if my approach to doing setups is substantially off-base. It's just the way I learned to do setups, and how I was taught the different steps of the setup are interrelated.

Two different things?
Indeed.
Looking back at what was said, I agree with both MuseCafeChris and your comments, but would consider my own hands on work to be my set up, and the techs' or luthiers job to be maintenance.
If you know exactly what you need, there's no reason that that can't be communicated and taken care of by some one else, but the reality of that for me is that only very general work gets done that way.

There's a bunch of tweaks I use on my own guitars that require me to be playing them, using my own finger pressure and listening to the result to get it right.
Let me give you a couple of examples of my biggest PITA set up chores, and how and why they change, sometimes in the middle of the gig.

I play guitar and lap steel at most of my gigs. No matter how happy any of my steels are, any time a new tune comes up that might call for a different tuning, there's the possibility that I might need to change one or more string gauges to accommodate that new tuning.
There's a set up trick to get a sound on the old Valco string through pickups, where you raise the individual pole piece while you're pushing the string down with the nose of the bar up past the octave; the objective is to get the downward deflection of the string to just graze the polepiece with a hard attack without ruining the intonation or actually running the string into the pole piece.

When you get it right, just a little motion up and down completely changes the timbre of the guitar, almost like a wah wah. It's my favorite thing about those pickups, and it's all about the players judgement to get it right. It's a very narrow window that you have to locate by feel, and you have to do that yourself. It's also a moving target for a number of reasons after you've dialed it in, mostly because the polepieces themselves tend to vibrate up and down a little with use. PITA, not outsourceable, but worth it to me for the sound.

I'll just mention one more, or I'll be here all night, but any guitar with a thumbwheel style height adjustment on the bridge presents a particular challenge for me to dial in.
The difference between getting the action height just right, to really dial in a certain area of the neck, to make the guitar growl, or to get the vibrato to really sing, it's not really measurable.
You can get in the ballpark, but the set up move that seals the deal is just squeezing on that wheel the tiniest bit.

I'm stuck doing that kind of stuff myself, because the adjustment doesn't make sense without my physical input and the guitars tactile response.
I think the reality is that there are a whole lot more "touring pros" who play whatever part-o-caster their roadie hands them, but there are still some guys like me who "pack their own chute."


Of course, the comment about the wrench was joking.
lalaland's direct reply struck me as needing it's own similar reply.
That's why I used the ;), to indicate I was jesting.
I'm pretty sure lalaland got the joke since he responded in kind.
;)

I suspected as much, but my dumb ass wasn't sure. . .


Anyway, if you're cool with the results you get working with your tech, that's awesome. It's bonus time for that cat.
For me, there's still a bunch of stuff that if it doesn't happen with my hands on the guitar, it doesn't happen. . .

Thanks for the opportunity for that clarification and keep up the good work!

peace sk

[candid_x]

I think it's a great question. A month ago I would have been one of those who thought the idea of a "challenging" guitar to be a ridiculous notion. For that reason I finally settled down with a couple of the sweetest and easiest to play electric guitar necks on the planet: Ernie Ball Music Man. I can't say enough about how natural and easy my Silhouette Specials are for me to play. I've been guitar hacking steadily for around 44 or so years, and I've played few. Nothing has compared.

Then, a month ago I acquired one of those CV Squire Teles, with its shiny, skiddy and skinny neck. Ewww....! However, the strangest thing, my playing time has more than quadrupled. I am compelled to pick that thing up and play, and that's exactly the kind of catalist I've been looking for.

The bonus to that extra bit of effort to play the Tele is, my chops are getting tighter, and now when I pick up one of my MM guitars, I sorta feel like Speed Racer for awhile! My appreciation for them has grown even more. What a relief not to have to fight my guitar! But I know I'll be "fighting" the Tele again, and loving it. Call me perverted, but sometimes a little bit of resistance turns me on. :banana

[tonedaddy]

Two different things?
Indeed.
Looking back at what was said, I agree with both MuseCafeChris and your comments, but would consider my own hands on work to be my set up, and the techs' or luthiers job to be maintenance.
If you know exactly what you need, there's no reason that that can't be communicated and taken care of by some one else, but the reality of that for me is that only very general work gets done that way.

There's a bunch of tweaks I use on my own guitars that require me to be playing them, using my own finger pressure and listening to the result to get it right.
Let me give you a couple of examples of my biggest PITA set up chores, and how and why they change, sometimes in the middle of the gig.

I play guitar and lap steel at most of my gigs. No matter how happy any of my steels are, any time a new tune comes up that might call for a different tuning, there's the possibility that I might need to change one or more string gauges to accommodate that new tuning.
There's a set up trick to get a sound on the old Valco string through pickups, where you raise the individual pole piece while you're pushing the string down with the nose of the bar up past the octave; the objective is to get the downward deflection of the string to just graze the polepiece with a hard attack without ruining the intonation or actually running the string into the pole piece.

When you get it right, just a little motion up and down completely changes the timbre of the guitar, almost like a wah wah. It's my favorite thing about those pickups, and it's all about the players judgement to get it right. It's a very narrow window that you have to locate by feel, and you have to do that yourself. It's also a moving target for a number of reasons after you've dialed it in, mostly because the polepieces themselves tend to vibrate up and down a little with use. PITA, not outsourceable, but worth it to me for the sound.

I'll just mention one more, or I'll be here all night, but any guitar with a thumbwheel style height adjustment on the bridge presents a particular challenge for me to dial in.
The difference between getting the action height just right, to really dial in a certain area of the neck, to make the guitar growl, or to get the vibrato to really sing, it's not really measurable.
You can get in the ballpark, but the set up move that seals the deal is just squeezing on that wheel the tiniest bit.

I'm stuck doing that kind of stuff myself, because the adjustment doesn't make sense without my physical input and the guitars tactile response.
I think the reality is that there are a whole lot more "touring pros" who play whatever part-o-caster their roadie hands them, but there are still some guys like me who "pack their own chute."

Thanks for taking the time to share all of that, Steve.
Your approach definitely makes sense, and I can definitely appreciate that the devil is in the details when it comes to squeezing that last few percent of personalization of your setup.
And even with my approach, I'd agree that kind of final work has to be done personally.

I've also got to admit that my approach is heavily affected by playing mostly Teles, which I find to have setup issues which (for me and what I'm trying to get out of them, at least) are pretty straightforward and don't offer an extraordinary amount of subtlety, e.g. no trem like on a Strat, no thumbwheel height adjustment on the bridge, etc. I know Strat players who like use every last possible ounce of subtlety of play (as well as very wide range) in their trem, and I can imagine communicating those subtleties could be extremely difficult.

I suspected as much, but my dumb ass wasn't sure. . .

Anyway, if you're cool with the results you get working with your tech, that's awesome. It's bonus time for that cat.
For me, there's still a bunch of stuff that if it doesn't happen with my hands on the guitar, it doesn't happen. . .

Makes complete sense.

Thanks for the opportunity for that clarification and keep up the good work!

peace sk

Thanks/peace to you as well.
Hope to catch you live/on the road someday!

[bluesjuke]

I think there are quite a few here that are misinterpreting the word "fight" used in this context.

To play it's not hard or difficult or has a bad set up.

It has resistance in the sense of not being mushy and putty like.
Maybe look at it as string tension and being tight.

Even a guitar with proper relief and low action can fit in this category.

[fizbin]

I like a medium guage .10 stringed guitar set up about as easy it will realistically play. If the strings are rubber bands (light guage) it feels like a toy and I tend to have intonation problems and bend strings that I don't intend to bend.

[DonM]

out of 100's that fight me
only one lets me fly............

And its just a $99.00 modified Tele year-2000, squire affinity, made in china
bought at Sam Ash for $99.00

nothing is perfect - but this guitar is - and I played every Tele I can wrap my hands on including Roy Buchanan's 1953 Nancy - and tons of Vintage and Custom shops and partsocasters..

[909one]

I don't like guitars that you have to fight to play. Fights are not fun and good for anyone, and don't want to play a guitar that way. I am constantly finding ways to remove any confrontations between my mind, my hands and my guitars. This however doesn't mean I am not intersted in writing or playing music that doesn't confront the listener. For me, overcoming mental blocks help to create fresh ideas, not pyhsical blocks.

However....
Is anyone is familiar with Marc Ribot? Played with Tom Waits, Elvis Costello, Lounge Lizards, etc etc... I have read that for some solo stuff he does, that he purposely plays thrift store guitars with bad intonation, high action and don't stay in tune. It really contributes to his sound, and think he enjoys the challenge for sure. I think there is something to be said for that... Its really part of his overall aesthetic though. Listen to one note of his playing and you'll know what I talking about.

[Metalheart]

I like to feel like the music is flowing and a guitar thats not feeling right it ain't working for me. Its should flow not be work. But to each his own :)

[VaughnC]

Depends on how you define "fight". I tend to like the action on my Strats on the high side of medium...lower or raise the action beyond that and there's a bit more fight than my personal action sweet spot. If the action is too low, I tend to loose the feel of what I'm trying to play. If the action is too high, there seems to be too much "feel" (if that makes any sense) ;). If the action is just right, I tend to forget about the hardware and my mind tends to drift to the musical message I'm trying to put across. If the hardware (any part of my rig) fights me too much I find it very distracting...like there's a stone in my shoe ;).