Are you guys Musician's Union members?

[stevel]

Yes or no.

If Yes, pros, cons?

If no, why not?


TIA,

Steve

[harvestmark]

Yes, not for live gigging, but for studio stuff I can get union scale & residuals for. Don't get too excited about that. AFM, (American Federation of Musicians), has a much lower pay scale than SAG/AFTRA, (Screen Actors Guild/American Federation of Television & Radio Actors, I believe). By that, I mean, the people playing the music will not be paid anywhere near as much as the people who's voices you hear. Keep in mind I do mainly commercial music you would hear on tv commercials. AFM seems to be strong in orchestral music gigs. Still, I appreciate all the union does for musicians, i.e. insurance, retirement, etc...

Mark Miller

[KRosser]

Yes. There really are no 'cons' to joining as I see it.

[guitarplayaman]

No...

Cons are they constantly hit you up for money. Here in Nashville they use to scour the local papers to bill you for club dates, hassle you if you used non member musicians etc etc...

Never joined probably never will......

[jads57]

Quit years ago, whenever I actually needed them they always failed! One time to go after a bar owner, and another to arange a meeting between a major sports team that had hired and fired us. All they ever do at least here in the twin cities is threaten their own members and collect $

[jtm622]

I belonged to the musician's union back in to 1970's... I found out that the reality was this "they can't help you, but they can hinder you." If one worked for union scale, one would soon die of starvation.

[Cap'n Fingers]

:munch

Interesting views on both sides. I'm a no because
I don't generate enough income from playing to
considered it. Good topic though. Hope to see more
responses.

[baranger1]

I have been a Union Musician since 1972.
The past 28 years I have done nothing but studio work.
The people that hired me including Ad agencies were charged a small amount to go into a pension fund for me.
I can now retire with a nice modest income for life at age 55.
I can even keep working and start a second pension!

The pension fund is not linked to a company like a 401 plan.
It is solid.

Also when I was not paid for sessions the union has always gone after the producer and made sure I was paid.

They have done a lot for me!

Sad thing is with the state of the economy union gigs are being taken over by the "Buy Out" where they play the musician as little as possible with no reuse, H/W or pension contributions.
Cheap is beast now and music is now cheap.
Quality means very little, its down to the bottom dollar.


Bill

[duffyguitarman]

A "pro" when doing sessions (mainly ad work), network tv, or
Broadway type shows. Regular gigs or tours, it is a non factor and actually could be a hinderence.





Yes, not for live gigging, but for studio stuff I can get union scale & residuals for. Don't get too excited about that. AFM, (American Federation of Musicians), has a much lower pay scale than SAG/AFTRA, (Screen Actors Guild/American Federation of Television & Radio Actors, I believe). By that, I mean, the people playing the music will not be paid anywhere near as much as the people who's voices you hear. Keep in mind I do mainly commercial music you would hear on tv commercials. AFM seems to be strong in orchestral music gigs. Still, I appreciate all the union does for musicians, i.e. insurance, retirement, etc...

Mark Miller


Yep, SAG scale and resids. are on a whole different level. (I belong to both, as I also sing on ads.) LLLLLLLLove those SAG scale and residual checks. Unfortunatly it has slowed down in my area alot, as pretty much all of it is auto related. Plus there have been a rash of ad agency's skirting the rules and pushing "buyouts".

[Dog Boy]

I have belonged (I don't now) and used the legal services once. Other than that they have not done anything for me. If you play for a National Artist or do high profile studio work they are nice to have in your corner...when you need them.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Yes.

[90wreck]

No...

Cons are they constantly hit you up for money. Here in Nashville they use to scour the local papers to bill you for club dates, hassle you if you used non member musicians etc etc...

Never joined probably never will......
Back in my Nashvegas days, I would get hassled every now and then by a union member.....They would always come across as pretty aggressive.

[cadduc]

locals 510 and then 6

and then resigned in good standing

i just came across one of the last union bulletins i received for 510 and a month before i resigned it lists and welcomes shiela e as one of the new members

i was never playing at a level in studio work that attracted anything other than the collection of my dues

i think that was a measure of my own immaturity, at the time my contemporaries thought that the union should help get you jobs, they dont do that

by the same nut the clubs i played in like frenchys and the casuals, routinely had sly and the family stone, and the tower of power playing, and i know we were always paid under scale and sure enuf, every gig bill the union business rep would be there to welcome us, asking where our paperwork and our union tithe was,

this did tend build up a bit of resentment against the union among players

[rwe333]

Yes. Local 180.

[BuddyGuit]

Yes ..... to do some work it's necessary.

[franksguitar]

I was many years ago and left, more restrictions than possibilities plus couldn't play with non-members or threatened with fines, had to pay other locals working out of area etc., was certainly not worth it. Cost more than you earned!

[FlyingVBlues]

I've been an AFM member since 1966. It has been helpful with session work, theater gigs and some of the film work I have done. It has not been very helpful in terms of gigs. I originally belonged to Local 802 in New York, and at the time I joined the union you basically had to have a union card and also a Cabaret License to work in New York City. However, that changed significantly in the early 80's. I now belong to Local 161-710 in the DC area because I occasionally do some work that requires union membership. If you're just gigging local clubs I wouldn't bother joining. If you're doing session work, theater gigs, or film and TV work it is beneficial to join, and sometimes a requirement to do certain types of work.


FVB

[splatt]

yes, absolutely.

on most of my playing-work,
the AFM protects me,
arranges for the proper collection of my residuals
(for re-use payments, on films & other recordings),
helps me build some kind of a pension-fund,
offers me (minimal, but helpful) insurance, etc.

as far as live-performance goes,
only my touring gigs are contracted AFM;
yes, the Locals can often be a hornswaggling,
whiney & crippling pain in the butt,
but..... imo:
the only way for any Union to develop more sway & influence
in protecting its membership is if & when:
1) more folks join, & attempt to abide by the "rules", and/or
2) more folks join, & actually help to change the rules
to reflect more accurately their actual needs, and/or
3) more folks join, & make their way to the "oversight" committees..... locally, or nationally.

dt / spltrcl

[stevel]

Thanks everyone. I don't think it's going to help me out very much in my current position.

Peace,
Steve

[henry_the_horse]

Sorry the bump.
What are these terms "scale", "residuals" and "reuses"?
Thanks.
Regards

[macheesmo3]

This is so weird , but I have never run across an AFM member in my life down here.
I hear all this talk about BMI, ASCAP and AFM and , though I know who they are , I have never run across them. I have played gigs from Jacksonville to Baltimore to New Orleans , but mostly here locally and in Mobile , Al, never seen them. Is this more common up north or something? I have asked friends who gig too and they have never spoken to any members or reps. of those orgs..... I played a little bit on some folks recordings too years ago... Oh well !
Can't say pro's or cons , cause honestly boys! I have no idea!!

[henry_the_horse]

In the Clint Eastwood movie Bird (1988) there is a part when Charlie Parker is not allowed to do session or club work in NY as he doesn't have his AFM member ID in rule (the police is pushing him to get to his dealer), so he plays Bar Mitzvah's and tours the Deep South. When I watched the movie I found it kind of stereotyped off-union musician's gigs, but now I consider there may be some truth to it.

Regards

[Ed DeGenaro]

Sorry the bump.
What are these terms "scale and residuals" and "reuses".
Thanks.
Regards

Scale...union negotiated pay rate
residual...movie version of royalty
re-use when a piece gets used again.

[jzilla]

This is so weird , but I have never run across an AFM member in my life down here.
I hear all this talk about BMI, ASCAP and AFM and , though I know who they are , I have never run across them. I have played gigs from Jacksonville to Baltimore to New Orleans , but mostly here locally and in Mobile , Al, never seen them. Is this more common up north or something? I have asked friends who gig too and they have never spoken to any members or reps. of those orgs..... I played a little bit on some folks recordings too years ago... Oh well !
Can't say pro's or cons , cause honestly boys! I have no idea!!

BMI/ASCAP is a completely different thing from AFM. BMI & ASCAP collects money for writers & performers. it is not a union and doesn't enforce work limitations on their members. if you've written music there is no reason not to have registered it with BMI or ASCAP as they can get you performance royalties.

the AFM (american federation of musicians) is the musicians' union. it makes the most sense to join if you are a professional musician and/or composer making your money from performing or composing for film/tv/theater, etc. this is who is responsible for collecting your residuals if you've played on music for commercials for example.

those are very broad explanations but hopefully give a little insight.

cheers!
-j

[splatt]

Special payments (residuals) work out to be around 30% of what you made that year (master sessions).

for clarity's sake, "special payments"
(ie, from secondary markets, and/or re-use)
are not calculated as a percentage of your personal yearly income,
exactly:
they're calculated as a percentage of secondary market profits
(as made by the employer),
which are somehow divided amongst the number of players involved.
but,
each player's share is weighted by the differences (if any) between the original individual pay-scales of each involved player:
so,
if you made more than jim-bob to begin with,
you'll get that much greater a percentage of the secondary markets' profits
on whichever individual project yer talkin' about.

just fwiw.
practically, i can say that i've earned much more money
from "special payments" on many, many projects
than i did from my original paychecks on those same projects.
again,
all this is just for clarity's sake.
G-d bless the AFM..... for its very few functional protections.

dt / spltrcl

[macheesmo3]

BMI/ASCAP is a completely different thing from AFM. BMI & ASCAP collects money for writers & performers. it is not a union and doesn't enforce work limitations on their members. if you've written music there is no reason not to have registered it with BMI or ASCAP as they can get you performance royalties.

the AFM (american federation of musicians) is the musicians' union. it makes the most sense to join if you are a professional musician and/or composer making your money from performing or composing for film/tv/theater, etc. this is who is responsible for collecting your residuals if you've played on music for commercials for example.

those are very broad explanations but hopefully give a little insight.

cheers!
-j

I know what they are , just threw the other two in with AFM as I have never run across any of them down here. Thought it might be a northern thing or something .

[stratman34]

Nope, never encountered them down here. Wouldn't join if I did. They are just not for me.

[henry_the_horse]

In my country musicians protection justice is just a decree, not a law, every goverment administration announces to make it a law but then backstep by pressure from the recording co.'s.
Performing royalty percentages in my country are 66% to the performer and 33% to the recording co.'s thanks to the work of the president of the APA (Argentinean Performers Association). Sony wanted to overthrow the president of the APA for this. Apparently usual performing royalties percentages in the US and worldwide are 50/50.
To replace the pres. the Sony pamphleted the APA street, proposing a comitee by 3 other local musicians loyal to the rec. co.'s. Mainly cumbia and carnival music musicians (considered similar to gansta rap and hip-hop here.). Leopoldo Federico, the president of the APA is 70 y.o. and doesn't want to retire because of what it may happen after the Sony takes over the APA. Bad times for musicians rights here.
Thanks everyone for the explanations.

Regards

[kldonegan]

Several friends and mentors advised me not to join until I had a gig come up that required it. Tomorrow I am doing that job; I got the call and marched right down to the union office and signed up.

Don't do it unless you have to. They aren't there to guarantee you work, or find you more work.... they're there to see that you get your money (and their money...).

[henry_the_horse]

It's not their money. It's ours, union protected musicians' retirement and health care money.

[splatt]

Nope, never encountered them down here. Wouldn't join if I did. They are just not for me.
well, hey.....
..... it's not a Social Club;
it's a Union --- affiliated with the AFL-CIO ---
established to protect
the rights of musicians, when others profit by our work.

it might, in fact, be "for you",
when you're doing sessions that
might see broad national & international release.
the more of these sessions one does,
the more one has to protect:
when one makes their living thusly, anyways.
dt / spltrcl

[kldonegan]

It's not their money. It's ours, union protected musicians' retirement and health care money.

You know what I'm saying...

[henry_the_horse]

Yes, I know. But somehow I think that the problem with the union not having enough power to protect all their affiliated members is because there is too much individualism among musicians. This is my money, this is theirs, this is yours. "I, Me, Mine".
Union and federations are based on a solidarity model. It's not a bank account, in that when you retire you get back exactly what you payed in. Your pay in now so that a current retired musician gets his/her pension. When you retire, some other working musicians are going to pay for your pension. This solidarity model works regardless of inflation or depression, because if you retired now your expenses wouldn't cost the same to what they would cost if you retired in 20 years. So, you always get more than what you payed in.
Besides it has been well established that poor or old people get more ill than adult and/or rich people. So the one that never gets ill and has youth by his/her side is paying for somebody who is always getting ill. It ultimately depends on your values as a person. Someday both of us will need medicines everyday.


Regards