Rays Fans = Biggest "Bandwagon" Fans in Sports!

[dave s]

Went to a Rays game in late April when I was in FL playing golf with my wife. Nice distraction. Liked the Trop for an indoor ball yard. Nice people ... the few of them that bought a ticket to that particular game.

Drive up to stadium, the first 8 entrances are barracaded. Finally find one that we can turn into the parking lot. Greeted by old guy. "How much to park?" I have a $20 in my hand hoping I have enough.

"Free parking today, sir!" Wow, nice!

Pull up to a parking spot as close to the walkup ticket sales window as possible. Inquire about tickets, saying up to $50 for a pair. Get seats hanging over the lower deck between home and first base. GREAT seats compared to what is available at home.

Chatting up two 20-something guys next to us after the game begins indicate that they should have a crowd of about 8-10 thousand on a weekday night. Good crowd for THIS place, they say. Wife and I wonder why people don't support their team.

Pass camera to guy next to us to snap a pic of wifey and me. He points camera at us in the direction of the right field line. Wife and I are the only two people in the picture ... along with thousands of EMPTY BLUE SEATS!!! Paid attendence was 8-something, probably 5k in the house that night.

Where the hell were all these so-called 'fans' and 'Rays supporters' earlier this year? Last year? The last TEN years?

Even though the Rays have mired in last place for a long time, all I could thought about during that Rays game in late April was that they won't be here long with this kind of 'non-support' from locals.

Heck, we go to games in SNOW to watch the Indians lose! And there's 20k PLUS at an outdoor game in April in 30 degree weather.

Bandwagoners. 95% of 'em. Love the way they come out of the woodwork as 'big supporters' when the team is winning.

dave

[mge80]

Well, I guess it just proves you are a better person than those "Bandwagoners".

Honestly, who the fark cares?

[macheesmo3]

From what I have heard from friends down in Tampa , is that folks in the city don't want to drive all the way out to St Pete to watch a team lose. ( I know cruddy attitude). If they put the stadium in dopwntown Tampa , they'd probably do much better .
But nothing draws fans like winning eh ?

[NewarkWilder]

this town has always loved its team, but they haven't exactly been tearing up the record books. I've got a ton of family in KC, they still love the Royals with all their hearts but its not like the Royals sell out every game.

Tampa/St. Pete is excited as hell to be going to the series and they deserve to be.

Rays fans = getting their first taste of glory. You = sore loser.

[dave s]

Well, I guess it just proves you are a better person than those "Bandwagoners".

Honestly, who the fark cares?

I care because I like MLB. Heck, I live in Cleveland and supported the Rays this year! My guess is that the MAJORITY of the people at the playoff games might be attending their FIRST Rays game ever!

dave

[dave s]

Rays fans = getting their first taste of glory. You = sore loser.

I'm not a sore loser. I relayed a story about actually ATTENDING a Rays game in a facility with 5,000 (maybe) other fans and wondering why nobody supports the Rays. Like anything else, it's an NFL deal (Not For Long) if people don't come out!

Oh, there out NOW, because the Rays are in the World Series. Were any of them buying tickets to the Twins or KC in April and May? No sir.

dave

[Smakutus]

They were having problems with fan support even into August. I was there for a game a few years back and the Trop was a terrible place to watch a baseball game. The carpet is a goofy colour. The concourse was not lit well. It felt like a minor league hockey arena. I'm sure it's better now with the new owners and if they keep winning they will build a fan base. Myself I'd rather go see spring training games then the Rays.

Jeff

[UndergroundVint]

There's no doubt that a Tampa location would bring more fans than the St. Pete stadium. Best location on the planet would be at I-4 and I-75 where the Hard Rock Hotel is and Ford Ampitheater. Then an orlando fanbase could be built and toursist at Disney would have a 50 minute drive to the game. Best of all, outbound traffic after the game would be spread out in four different directions.

Fan-wise, you have to remember that the deck is stacked against the Rays and will be for years to come. Floirda is full of northern transplants and I believe 10,000+ more move here every day. How would someone from another state love baseball and not already love another team? fans. I would say 99% of all Rays fans abandoned the Yankees, Red Sox, Orioles, Phillies, Indians, Reds, White Sox, and Cubs to support Tampa Bay. Either that or they moved here from another country or state that didnt have a team and picked the Rays as their first favorite team.

[recto-robbie]

I'd have to guess that if a WS is won then the attendance would rise. No?

[FlyingDutchman]

dave, I agree with ya..Im a boston die hard and Im always amazed when the sox play in Tampa it sounds like a home game. The Rays have no fans of their own. Well now they do while they are winning..

[Jahn]

My generation of Phils fans got their first taste of Baseball Superstardom in the era of Mike Schmidt and Pete Rose and Steve Carlton in the early 80's. And experienced our own "true fan" test when that damn Jay longball was hit off Wild Thing a decade later (i feel it's karma for raiding the great 80's Mets teams, but I keep that to myself). A decade later of seeing great players and managers leaving for bigger and better things and WS rings, and only the battle tested diehardcore Phillies fans are left. Hell, I even dreamt of driving the Phanatic off a cliff with his stupid ATV once, after a particularly painful series.

So to all you Rays fans - in my mind, even if you were with the team from day one, the kind of fan loyalty you have to build up is still a long row to hoe. But kudos for making it, and see you in the only Series that counts!

[pir8matt]

You're right! The Rays shouldn't let any locals into the series games, as punishment for being such terrible fans!

Give me a break.

[jimfog]

Total Frauds

[Greggy]

Baseball is a business. If return on investment is insufficient, owners get out. If salaries are insufficient, players sit out or go to arbitration. When fans are not paid a sufficient consideration (for me I demand any team that seeks my patronage to play at a playoff calibre level of play), they should sit it out and not attend. Pay me what I'm worth as a fan or don't expect me to be turining your turnstile, I'm worth a playoff calibre performance and that's what the market will bear else I'm not attending. It's a business.

A fair weather fan is a discriminating consumer who knows and enforces his/her worth.

[Lawn Jockey]

Go rays!!11!!2@@2@@11!1!!!@#

[NewarkWilder]

this thread =

http://www.swearing.org/misc/img/wambulance.gif

[PUCKBOY99]

Hey, they've finally got a team worth rooting for...leave 'em alone !

GO RAYS !!!!

:BEER

[orangewizard]

this thread =

http://www.swearing.org/misc/img/wambulance.gifShut up dude,the guy was just stating an opinion...one that I,for the most part happen to concur with.


'To thine own self be true'....if you are a true fan of this team,and have supported them through all the years of suckage,you know who you are and consequently have no reason to sweat what we believe to be most fans.Enjoy your moment in the sun!:)


If you are a 'bandwagon jumper' and you know it...well a nerve has been struck,hasn't it? :stir

[NewarkWilder]

Shut up dude

http://www.swearing.org/misc/img/wambulance.gif

x2


:p

[partytrain]

It's not the rays fans, it's tampa sports fans....Biggest bandwagon fans I've ever seen, and I live down here. Bucs win the superbowl, you can't go anywhere without seeing bucs flags on cars, fast forward a few years later, the Bucs almost have a home playoff game blacked out due to lack of ticket sales. The Lightening were the big ticket down here a few years back with the stanley cup win, they are giving away tickets now. Rays? How about a stadium that was 1/4th full about a month before this playoff run....I can't tell you how many Rays shirts/hats/car flags I've seen today....

[dave r.]

Fair weather fans come around for all winning markets. Not surprising. Their attendance will rise next year. And suppose they didn't get FW fans? The same people would be criticizing them for not selling out playoff games!

[Greggy]

Oh yeah, and I almost forgot to mention: I eat young children for breakfast. :eek:

[Jon Silberman]

I had no intention of jumping on this team's wagon anyway but I can tell you this, if I had, it would be gone from this asinine thread.

[Shine]

I live in FL and I hate the Rays. Bah.

[re-animator]

IDK dude... when I think of bandwagoners, they're usually not home fans.


its natural to dig on your city's team when it s doing well. What I can't stand is the bandwagoning cubs/steelers/red sox fans here on the west coast that claim to be "die hards."

[ScottB]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/rays3.shtml

[pir8matt]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/rays3.shtml

Hey now, don't to trying to introduce facts into this here thread. Only conjecture and ad hominem attacks are welcome here!

[dets1]

i don't think the rays fans are any more "jumpers" than the white sox fans of 3 years ago. crappy teams don't draw until they win.

[JohnK24]

I'd love to have some bandwagon jumpers on the Pirates someday...

Anyhow Dave...why pick on baseball fans period ? Where not in the majority anymore, let's just enjoy October baseball and pull for the Rays. They are a pretty exciting team of young guns and it would be great to see them dump Philly

[dave s]

There's no doubt that a Tampa location would bring more fans than the St. Pete stadium. Best location on the planet would be at I-4 and I-75 where the Hard Rock Hotel is and Ford Ampitheater. Then an orlando fanbase could be built and toursist at Disney would have a 50 minute drive to the game. Best of all, outbound traffic after the game would be spread out in four different directions.



Good idea! The new tampa area (I4 at I75) is exactly where my wife and I stay when we go to FL to play golf. Great area, lots to do nearby. We drove from that exact location to the Rays game in April. Not TOO awfully bad of a drive, but was about 45 minutes, IIRC.

dave

[dave s]

I'd have to guess that if a WS is won then the attendance would rise. No?

I would certainly hope so! From what I saw back in April, the Rays aren't going to be around if people don't support the team throughout the season.

dave

[dave s]

You're right! The Rays shouldn't let any locals into the series games, as punishment for being such terrible fans!

Give me a break.

Where were they in April? Certainly no trouble getting a ticket to a MLB ballgame with maybe 5,000 people there. That's my point. Not that they aren't welcome to support NOW, it's support throughout the season that is necessary to keep a ball team afloat.

dave

[dave s]

Hey, they've finally got a team worth rooting for...leave 'em alone !

GO RAYS !!!!

:BEER

They sure do! Not taking sides, but I am a 'merkin leaguer!

dave

[dave s]

It's not the rays fans, it's tampa sports fans....Biggest bandwagon fans I've ever seen, and I live down here. Bucs win the superbowl, you can't go anywhere without seeing bucs flags on cars, fast forward a few years later, the Bucs almost have a home playoff game blacked out due to lack of ticket sales. The Lightening were the big ticket down here a few years back with the stanley cup win, they are giving away tickets now. Rays? How about a stadium that was 1/4th full about a month before this playoff run....I can't tell you how many Rays shirts/hats/car flags I've seen today....

Thanks for sharing your local knowledge. Again, I couldn't believe how EASY the Rays made it for my wife and I to attend and enjoy a game. Hell, I live in Cleveland where nobody has two nickels to rub together, but the ballyard is full of fans watching a last place team.

To support your post: Tampa Bay home attendance ranked #26 out of the 30 MLB teams!

dave

[dave s]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/rays3.shtml

I just checked at ESPN.com. Rays home 2008 attendance ranked #26 out of 30 MLB teams.

dave

[pir8matt]

Where were they in April? Certainly no trouble getting a ticket to a MLB ballgame with maybe 5,000 people there. That's my point. Not that they aren't welcome to support NOW, it's support throughout the season that is necessary to keep a ball team afloat.

dave

There is no point to your statement, you're just pot stirring. Lets say what you're saying is true - That the fans in this area are the biggest bandwagon jumpers in sports. So then what is the consequence of that? Should the team not let people in? Should they only sell tickets to people who don't live here? Should they just bow out of the series entirely and not play?

You say "not that they aren't welcome to support NOW", but it kind of sounds like you're saying the exact opposite of that, like if people didn't support the team when they were losing, they shouldn't be allowed to support them when they're winning. Is that how professional sports work?

Theres no contract between fans and professional teams, last time I checked. Usually the way to get people to games is to start winning, and it looks like that formula is working this time around as well.

Going around name-calling an entire region of people doesn't seem like a real positive way to 'support' a team in their series effort.

[Joseph Hanna]

Went to a Rays game in late April when I was in FL playing golf with my wife. Nice distraction. Liked the Trop for an indoor ball yard. Nice people ... the few of them that bought a ticket to that particular game.

Drive up to stadium, the first 8 entrances are barracaded. Finally find one that we can turn into the parking lot. Greeted by old guy. "How much to park?" I have a $20 in my hand hoping I have enough.

"Free parking today, sir!" Wow, nice!

Pull up to a parking spot as close to the walkup ticket sales window as possible. Inquire about tickets, saying up to $50 for a pair. Get seats hanging over the lower deck between home and first base. GREAT seats compared to what is available at home.

Chatting up two 20-something guys next to us after the game begins indicate that they should have a crowd of about 8-10 thousand on a weekday night. Good crowd for THIS place, they say. Wife and I wonder why people don't support their team.

Pass camera to guy next to us to snap a pic of wifey and me. He points camera at us in the direction of the right field line. Wife and I are the only two people in the picture ... along with thousands of EMPTY BLUE SEATS!!! Paid attendence was 8-something, probably 5k in the house that night.

Where the hell were all these so-called 'fans' and 'Rays supporters' earlier this year? Last year? The last TEN years?

Even though the Rays have mired in last place for a long time, all I could thought about during that Rays game in late April was that they won't be here long with this kind of 'non-support' from locals.

Heck, we go to games in SNOW to watch the Indians lose! And there's 20k PLUS at an outdoor game in April in 30 degree weather.

Bandwagoners. 95% of 'em. Love the way they come out of the woodwork as 'big supporters' when the team is winning.

dave

Hold on there a minute Dave :)

I grew up in the mid-west and despite now being a diehard California baseball fan I am first and foremost a baseball fan and remember my childhood baseball like it was yesterday.

It NEVER ceases to amaze me that Cleveland fans in 1994 suddenly became the poster children for baseball. Out of the clear blue. Like they invented baseball.

The truth be told The Cleveland Indians were the attendance laughing stock of all major league sports franchises between 1960 and 1994. Often described as the "Grand Thirty Year Slump". There was NONE worse.

In fact depending on which record keeping system you trust the average attendance (keeping in mind the American League attendance at that time was turnstile) was just shy of 8900 per game. You drew less than 9000 people to any given Indians game for over 30 years consecutively. Let me assure you there was NO ONE in attendance when it snowed!

The kettle is calling the pot black :)

[blood5150]

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet.... but there are talks to build a new stadium in Tampa for the Rays.... which I think is just total BS if its true.

They cant get anyone to come to the games and now they may get a new stadium?

Seriously, you cant make this stuff up.

[dave s]

Hold on there a minute Dave :)


The kettle is calling the pot black :)

How do you figure I am (kettle) calling anybody (pot) black? I've been to MLB games all over the US. This year, I was able to add Tropicana Field to my list of MLB parks visited to see a ballgame. And I've been to hundreds of Indians games. And yeah, they play baseball in the snow in April here in Cleveland. I have season tickets which means I actually do show up with in a parka, hat and gloves.

HUGE baseball fan here. My whole point, which seems to be supported by local Tampa and FL people in this post, is that the Rays 2008 attendance figures ranked 26 out of 30 MLB teams and has been dismal the past 10 seasons. Up until about 3 weeks ago, the Rays had very limited support even though the team has been in first place much of the season.

If you can't agree that most fans have jumped on the Rays' bandwagon within the last 2-3 weeks, you don't follow baseball very closely.

That's all I'm saying. The fans weren't supporting the Rays a month ago, three months ago, last year or the past TEN years compared to what we're seeing today. They've all jumped on the 'We're in the world series, baby' bandwagon 3 weeks ago.

dave

[Greggy]

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet.... but there are talks to build a new stadium in Tampa for the Rays.... which I think is just total BS if its true.

They cant get anyone to come to the games and now they may get a new stadium?

Seriously, you cant make this stuff up.

Public financing makes perverse incentives. I assume the owners/developers are dipping their hands into the public trough.

[dave s]

Hold on there a minute Dave :)


In fact depending on which record keeping system you trust the average attendance (keeping in mind the American League attendance at that time was turnstile) was just shy of 8900 per game. You drew less than 9000 people to any given Indians game for over 30 years consecutively. Let me assure you there was NO ONE in attendance when it snowed!

The kettle is calling the pot black :)

Here are the numbers: Over the last thirty years, 1978-2008, The Indians have averaged 23,963 per game. Source: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/attend.shtml

To prove that I can actually see and read, in 1985, they averaged < 9000 per contest. But that's one year and certainly not 9k for the 30 years consecutively. Not sure where you got your numbers from.

dave

[geetarboy]

Well, yeah, this is how it works. When a team is new to a city, it takes years to build up the fan base and it takes winning. The Colts came to Indy in 84. It took a long time for this to become a football town. Kids had to grow up with the Colts as their team and they had to have some winning years. Ten years down the road and they are in the World Series and gaining lots of new fans - I would say they are ahead of schedule.

[Joseph Hanna]

How do you figure I am (kettle) calling anybody (pot) black?

Dave... it's all in fun :)

That said you were comparing The Rays and how poor their attendance was prior to their Phoenix-like rise to being a very strong baseball team and you set that comparison in motion by saying...

Heck, we go to games in SNOW to watch the Indians lose! And there's 20k PLUS at an outdoor game in April in 30 degree weather.

To which my response is, there is NO BIGGER example of fair weather fans in professional sports than the Cleveland Indian fans. You couldn't get ANYONE to attend a Cleveland game for 30 straight years prior to the 1994 season. An almost unfathomable average attendance over 30 years of 8900. It was then (1994) and suddenly that Cleveland fans felt they had become the spokesperson of all great fans everywhere. All this seemingly forgetting that they had failed, on every level, to support the Indians for an agonizing 3 decades.

Bandwagoners. 95% of 'em. Love the way they come out of the woodwork as 'big supporters' when the team is winning.

For the biggest, most dramatic example of fans suddenly coming out of the woodwork look at Cleveland's attendance records prior to and then after 1994.

[Joseph Hanna]

Here are the numbers: Over the last thirty years, 1978-2008, The Indians have averaged 23,963 per game. Source: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/attend.shtml

To prove that I can actually see and read, in 1985, they averaged < 9000 per contest. But that's one year and certainly not 9k for the 30 years consecutively. Not sure where you got your numbers from.

dave

Again I poke in fun Dave :)

The point of poor attendance and my point in general is the dismal support BEFORE the 1994 season and the miraculous rise post 1994. (fair weather fans) If you work into this average, post 1994 Jacob Field stats, you not only skew the numbers but you miss my point entirely.

No one doubts Cleveland's attendance rose dramatically with the advent of the Jake and winning baseball.

[bmorelli]

i've been going to watch the (devil) rays since the begining, does that make me more of a fan? who cares?!? people like supporting a winning team, period, end of sentence.

teams, in every city, need "bandwagon" fans. if i can't cite babe ruth's home run total am i not allowed to enter yankee stadium? or if i don't know ted williams' lifetime aveage am i put in fenway jail? how do you measure someone's "fandom?" either you're a fan or you're not, and sometimes it takes winning to get folks interested. as i said in another post, today's bandwagon rays fans are next year's season ticket holders - so i say hop on board!

and as far as tampa bay as a sports town i'd say with the super bowl champs in 2003, stanley cup champs in 2004, and world series appearance in 2008 our record in the last 6 years or so is pretty good (bandwagon or not).

*cleveland cavs stats just for dave...
ave cav attendance 2002-2003 - 11,496 (last) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2003
ave cav attendance 2004-2005 - 19,128 (6th) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2005
ave cav attendance 2007-2008 - 20,465 (3rd) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2008

gee, what happend in 2003??? oh yeah, lebron was drafted! the cavs started winning, and all those damned "bandwagoners" started going to games!! all in good fun dave, i couldn't resist :D

[Veritas]

Not to stir anything more up...I'm with Joseph Hanna on this one... My first memories of attending MLB games was in Cleveland (my dad has always been a diehard Cleveland fan). I went to quite a number of games in the mid-late '80's and it was the most brutal attendance you've ever seen. My dad still talks about it, and how "magically" in the mid-90's the Indians all of the sudden had fans. Either way, the Indians fans are faithful now, but it didn't happen until they became playoff mainstays during the 90's. The same could happen in Tampa. They have the players to be a contending team for quite a number of years. Time will tell.

[John Hurtt]

How can an Indian fan talk smack about anyone else? I remember the team stunk so bad there was no one at the games. The team had been losers for years. Then, when Rachel Phelps took over ownership of the team after her hubby died she wanted the team to move to Florida for a new stadium! How ironic....it's lucky for you guys that some Major League talent such as Ricky Vaughn, Willie Mays Hayes, and Pedro Cerrano came up big. Plus, the luck to have a couple of the vets like Roger Dorn and Eddie Harris play good ball.

Sometimes it just needs something to pull it all together....

[Smakutus]

Again I poke in fun Dave :)

The point of poor attendance and my point in general is the dismal support BEFORE the 1994 season and the miraculous rise post 1994. (fair weather fans) If you work into this average, post 1994 Jacob Field stats, you not only skew the numbers but you miss my point entirely.

No one doubts Cleveland's attendance rose dramatically with the advent of the Jake and winning baseball.

To be honest here the place the Indians played in prior to Jacobs Field was way worse than the Trop or any other place in the Majors.

Jeff

[Luke]

Small market teams have to win to attract 40,000+ people to a game. The simple facts are: they are drawing from a smaller pool of potential buyers and are often located in areas lower average annual incomes. The Yankees and Mets have 40,000,000 people within 100 miles, with many $100,000+ annual earners within 10 miles of their locations. But back in the 1980s even Yankees games had 18,000 nights.

[glahnb]

I think you can say this for any team. My wife's whole family is all Philly sports, and if the Phillies or Eagles are not doing well, they don't say a word.

My wife is the exception, I've never met a Phillies fan as rabid as her, she won't miss an inning, win or lose.

[Joseph Hanna]

To be honest here the place the Indians played in prior to Jacobs Field was way worse than the Trop or any other place in the Majors.

Jeff

Cleveland Municipal Stadium was not a good place to see a ballgame...period. If memory serves it was not even conceived as a baseball park and views were strained at best. The lake wind also was akin to the days of Candlestick Park.

That said the big push in 1969 and 1970 for new ballparks for small to medium market teams (Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Philadelphia, Minnesota) PASSED Cleveland as poor attendance didn't warrant the investment.

If the city was behind the team there most likely would have been a stadium between Municipal and The Jake. ie Cincinnati and Philadelphia.

I don't think Municipal helped Cleveland but Tiger Stadium was equally as bad yet they maintained great attendance levels.

[blood5150]

Small market teams have to win to attract 40,000+ people to a game. The simple facts are: they are drawing from a smaller pool of potential buyers and are often located in areas lower average annual incomes. The Yankees and Mets have 40,000,000 people within 100 miles, with many $100,000+ annual earners within 10 miles of their locations. But back in the 1980s even Yankees games had 18,000 nights.


So by your logic, why build a stadium for the Rays or the marlins for that matter, that holds 45-50 thousand people?

:huh:huh:huh

[Joseph Hanna]

Small market teams have to win to attract 40,000+ people to a game. The simple facts are: they are drawing from a smaller pool of potential buyers and are often located in areas lower average annual incomes. The Yankees and Mets have 40,000,000 people within 100 miles, with many $100,000+ annual earners within 10 miles of their locations. But back in the 1980s even Yankees games had 18,000 nights.

True. Now more than ever small market teams must win to maintain a good decade long average. I think perhaps St. Louis would be the only small market team that could lose consistently and still draw. The Cubs in a large market can lose and draw as well.

Any team, Yankees included, can have a run of lower than average nights.. still a quick look at the teams 1980's average appears to be nearing 30K.

[Smakutus]

I don't think Municipal helped Cleveland but Tiger Stadium was equally as bad yet they maintained great attendance levels.

Oh BS. Tiger Stadium was a cool place to watch a game. Municipal was a huge piece of sh*t.

Jeff

[bmorelli]

pittsburgh didn't. pnc park holds 38,496 and it's arguably one of the nicest stadiums in baseball (and beats the old three rivers by a MILE!).

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/nl/PNCPark.htm

So by your logic, why build a stadium for the Rays or the marlins for that matter, that holds 45-50 thousand people?

:huh:huh:huh

[blood5150]

pittsburgh didn't. pnc park holds 38,496 and it's arguably one of the nicest stadiums in baseball (and beats the old three rivers by a MILE!).

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/nl/PNCPark.htm

That makes sense.. I would consider Pittsburgh to be a much more urban area than Tampa, etc...

Tropicana Field - 45,000

[Joseph Hanna]

Oh BS. Tiger Stadium was a cool place to watch a game. Municipal was a huge piece of sh*t.

Jeff

Yes you know your right and I didn't mean to compare the fans love of Tigers Stadium to the fans hate of Municipal. And I certainly didn't mean to lump Tigers Stadium into the "dump" category.

It did however suffer from cramped seating and some highly unusual view challenges and that's what popped into my mind when comparing it to Municipal.

I spent a summer in Detroit as a kid and I should have known better than to talk disparaging about Tiger Stadium. Sorta like dissing Wrigley Filed.

My bad

[Smakutus]

pittsburgh didn't. pnc park holds 38,496 and it's arguably one of the nicest stadiums in baseball (and beats the old three rivers by a MILE!).

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/nl/PNCPark.htm

They have room to add seats there and will if they ever needs too.. They added a bunch of seats to Comerica in Deetroit after the 06 season.

Jeff

[pir8matt]

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet.... but there are talks to build a new stadium in Tampa for the Rays.... which I think is just total BS if its true.

They cant get anyone to come to the games and now they may get a new stadium?



They were trying to get that new stadium at the beginning of this season, right when the economy was starting to melt down. It went over like a lead balloon, trust me.

Of course, with a world series under their belts, that sentiment might change. It doesn't make sense on a lot of levels, though. I'd still be against it regardless.

[bmorelli]

for all those bandwagon fans, right?! ;)

They have room to add seats there and will if they ever needs too.. They added a bunch of seats to Comerica in Deetroit after the 06 season.

Jeff

[pir8matt]

So by your logic, why build a stadium for the Rays or the marlins for that matter, that holds 45-50 thousand people?

:huh:huh:huh

I can't speak for the Marlins, but the Trop was built without having a team lined up. It wasn't designed to be used exclusively for baseball. It's original design was multipurpose, and it has served as such. I've seen a bunch of great concerts there, and its where the Lightning played their games when they were an expansion team. It was called 'The Thunderdome' in those days, and I saw a few matches there.

At any rate, it was baseball that they wanted when it was built, but I think they were hedging their bets a little bit, and they built it with more seats than were needed for baseball exclusively.

[Smakutus]

Yes you know your right and I didn't mean to compare the fans love of Tigers Stadium to the fans hate of Municipal. And I certainly didn't mean to lump Tigers Stadium into the "dump" category.

It did however suffer from cramped seating and some highly unusual view challenges and that's what popped into my mind when comparing it to Municipal.

I spent a summer in Detroit as a kid and I should have known better than to talk disparaging about Tiger Stadium. Sorta like dissing Wrigley Filed.

My bad

That's cool..

I don't miss Tiger Stadium. It's time had come and gone years before they finally got out of there but I prefer the first 50 rows of seats between first and third there (both upper and lower deck) to Comerica anytime.

I sat in the original dog Pound for a game back in the early 90's and it was cool for that but the Brownies got whipped on by the Bills that game. (Bud Carsons last..)

Jeff

[Smakutus]

for all those bandwagon fans, right?! ;)

No doubt about it..

Jeff

[TubeeTuberton]

The only thing I am sure of is I know the Ray's owners/investors don't mind the "bandwagon" fans. Not only that but, what about the Bucs? Or the Lightning? I am from FL, born in Brandon and have watched the Bucs and the Lightning growing up with my dad. We would even go to the scrimmages for the Lightning after skating some at the same rink! I guess that is just it though. I do not feel that all of the "new" fans owe me anything. Or that they need some sort of hazing. It is just like the attitude of people today. They have to have everyone know that this was my idea! I supported it first! Me, mine, not you...MMMMEEEE!!! Get over it people. Who cares if they haven't paid their dues. If you ask me, which is why most people don't, we take sports way to seriously now-a-days. And pay the athletes WAY too much money for it. It is just entertainment. Nobody jumps on each other's cases for watching a new Spielberg film when they don't even know what the Sugerland Express was, right!? I mean, c'mon!

It's all just entertainment. Something to occupy the masses.

[jimfog]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/Less_demand_squeezing_Series_tix_prices_for_Tampa_ games.html

[pir8matt]

Get over it people. Who cares if they haven't paid their dues.

Exactly - the only 'dues' Stuart Sternberg and co. care about are the 'dues' you pay when you buy a ticket, a t-shirt, a 9 dollar beer from the concession stand, etc. They embrace all comers with dollars to spend. They don't care what their motivation is.

All this other 'paying dues' crap is just that, crap. Players go to the team in the city that will pay them the most, teams go to the cities that build them the best stadium, and so forth. They don't have any loyalty to the fans, why should it work the other way around?

Tubee nailed it. Its entertainment and thats it. Anything else and you're just kidding yourself.

[Greggy]

It's all just entertainment. Something to occupy the masses.

I prefer gladiatorial combats. So Billy, do you like gladiator movies?

[madsr]

I think the Rays needed desperately what they got this season to gain some loyal fans. With some luck all the fans who jumped on the wagon will stick around. They have been in the gutter since their existance and now it seems if they keep the core players on the team for a while they will contend for years to come. It's to be expected when you have 10 years of great high draft picks. Sox'll be back next year and hopefully the series will be just as good(except Sox win!). For me as a diehard Red Sox fan, anything is better than the Yankees in the World Series!

[tonedaddy]

Comparing attendance/fan base/fan support for a 10 yo old franchise with cities that have had MLB franchises for 50-100 years is insane.

Why isn't anyone arguing the Florida Marlins as the biggest bandwagon fans?

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/marlins3.shtml

How else could you interpret that attendance record?
They had far more to cheer for and had 2/3 of their fans leave in just a few short years from '97 (when they win a WS) to '02.
Comparing the team's lows (in '02), at their worst the Rays put 30% more fans in seats than the Marlins, and the Rays fans had absolutely nothing to cheer about.
Then the Marlins put together another WS win in '03 and attendance goes up 60%.
That's a far bigger bandwagon than the Rays attendance in the last few years (which has shown steady growth with no on field success).


Think there weren't bandwagon fans back in the early days of the older franchises?
Dream on.

The Red Sox have some of the most rabid fans in baseball today. Their team should be proud of them. I know I admire them for their love of their great team (even though I gave them a really hard time after the Rays victory Sunday night....Why? Because that's what great rivalries do, and the Rays-Red Sox rivalry has been one of the best over the last few years.)

Has it always been that way?
Of course not.

Need proof?

Red Sox attendance, records, and place finishes:

1961 - 10,437 - 76-86 - 6th (out of 10)
1962 - 9,164 - 76-84 - 8th
1963 - 11,710 - 76-85 - 7th
1964 - 10,905 - 72-90 - 8th
1965 - 8,052 - 62-100 - 9th
1966 - 10,014 - 72-90 - 9th
1967 - 21,331 - 92-70 - 1st


Rays attendance, records, and place finishes

2002 - 13,158 - 55-106 - 5th (out of 5)
2003 - 13,070 - 63-99 - 5th
2004 - 16,139 - 70-91 - 4th
2005 - 14,052 - 67-95 - 5th
2006 - 16,901 - 61-101 - 5th
2007 - 17,148 - 66-96 - 5th
2008 - 22,259 - 97-65 - 1st

In comparision, the Rays show a steady rise during years where there there was little if anything to cheer about.

Contrast the Red Sox from '65-'67 when the team already had 50+ years to build a fan base to the Rays from '06-'08 when the team isn't even 10 yo yet.

Doesn't that show the Red Sox history as a far, far bigger bandwagon?
Doubling attendance when the Red Sox finally put a winning team on the field?
By the standards of some in this thread, they'd have to call it the biggest fair weather parade in baseball.

But does that make Red Sox fans (then or now) bandwagon fans?
No, not for the true baseball fans.

Does any team get bandwagon fans?
Of course.
Look at any team in baseball or any other sport, for that matter.
Those fans are ones that get wrapped up in the excitement and the success.
Are they true baseball fans?
Who knows and who cares.

My blood runs St. Louis Cardinal red, and over the last few years the Cards have one of the highest attendance records in baseball, seemingly unrelated to their ballfield success. And they have a fantastic history of baseball in that town. But I could go back in their history, particularly their early history, and find bandwagon years/decades.

But their current fan support didn't come in the first 10 years of the franchise.
It's taken a century.


Remember, no one is from Florida.
Ok, Tubee Tuberton and maybe 200-300 other people.
Tops.
;)

The rest of us are transplants.

It takes generations to build a fan base, and the Rays have no grandparent to parent to child, "this family roots for the Rays" history. You can't create that in 10 years. In fact, considering that it's the grandparents that move here and leave the kids up north, the Rays may never have that. You don't even have the history of generations of kids growing up as team fans, and doing things like trading baseball cards to get absorbed into a Rays home team mentality. I grew up in the St. Louis area, and that's how all of us in my neighborhood became Cardinals fans. We were eating/breathing/sleeping those stats on the back, memorizing every detail of every player on the team. But we didn't do that spontaneously, we did it because our parents had done it, and our grandparents before them.

Oh, we have the multi-generation fans down here, but they're all Boston/New York/Pirates/etc fans. And your not going to get those fans to change allegiance quickly, and maybe never. And that's not a bad thing. I know if the Rays played in the National League, I'd be watching the Rays locally, but I'd still be rooting for the Cards all year long.


But Florida does have great baseball fans down here that absolutely love the game. Lots of retiree baseball fans locate down here because they love spring training and the minor league teams that often occupy those facilities during the summer. On any given week during the season, those fans may not be financially able to go to a Rays game, but they're filling up the minor league parks all over the state.

Just this week at Walgreens, an elderly woman (who had to be at least 80 yo) was checking out. Everyone around was talking about the Rays trip to the WS, and the clerk asked her, "Are you rooting for the Rays?" The elderly woman snarled, "I hate the Rays. I'm a Yankee fan, and I'll die a Yankee fan!!"
:D

The Rays can only hope they'll inspire that kind of fan base someday.

[tonedaddy]

So by your logic, why build a stadium for the Rays or the marlins for that matter, that holds 45-50 thousand people?

:huh:huh:huhI can't speak for the Marlins, but the Trop was built without having a team lined up. It wasn't designed to be used exclusively for baseball. It's original design was multipurpose, and it has served as such. I've seen a bunch of great concerts there, and its where the Lightning played their games when they were an expansion team. It was called 'The Thunderdome' in those days, and I saw a few matches there.

At any rate, it was baseball that they wanted when it was built, but I think they were hedging their bets a little bit, and they built it with more seats than were needed for baseball exclusively.

More importantly perhaps, the new owners of the Rays know that they don't want a large stadium. The new stadium they proposed this year (currently withdrawn) was for only ~34,000 seats.

But that stadium proposal didn't have enough public support because:

Although it was a scenic waterfront location in St. Pete there was a lack of nearby parking and access to major roads.
Lots of taxpayers don't want to pay for a new stadium when the old one isn't paid off yet, or the site can't be sold for a good price, or the site can't be redeveloped in a manner to substantially benefit the taxpayers....pretty typical politics of local sports stadium issues.
The Tropicana may not be the perfect baseball stadium, but it is perfectly air-conditioned to 72 degrees, and covered so games can be played regardless of rain. And if you know anything about Florida, you know that summer afternoon/nights are absurdly hot/humid, and prone to nightly rain showers. The initial proposed stadium was to be open air with a "sail-like" cover to help shield (but not completely protect from) rainfall. That site wasn't large enough to hold a retractable roof.

Any newer proposed stadium will likely have:

better parking
much better access to major interstates
a retractable roof to avoid rainouts