EBAY FEEDBACK system changing again

[Luke]

So now your buyer has ANOTHER chance to hold you hostage, as they can alter an already positive feedback they had previously left. I bet you didn't know you were providing a warranty with that item you sold 75 days ago.

Contents from an email I received regarding my current battle with them:

Thank you for writing eBay in regard to your concern about our Feedback system.

I understand your frustration regarding our Feedback system, the reason
why we have the feedback system is because we wanted our members to
articulate their experience for their transactions. Buyers have the
liberty of leaving a feedback whether positive or negative based on
their opinion on how the transaction went. And though it is not the same
as the buyer but we provide you the opportunity to create a reply for
the feedback that you received in order to rectify this issue to your
future buyers.

However, I would like to take this opportunity to inform you about an
upcoming change to our Feedback system. I would suggest that you try to
resolve any issues that you have with your trading partner, because come Mid-October we are going to allow buyers to revise the feedback that they have left you. We wanted our sellers to focus in satisfying their buyers, and we believe this feature will be of great help for sellers because if they are able to work things out with their buyer chances of negative feedback will be slim.

If you need further assistance, please don't hesitate to reply to this
email and let us know.

Sincerely,
Cecilia M.

eBay Customer Support

[ScottR]

Wonderful...just another reason to Buy and Sell Here instead of ebay

[Lawn Jockey]

How can that $h*# be right?

:messedup

[MuseCafeChris]

Obviously their spin is that dissatisfied buyers will be able to change negative feedback to positive when their issues with the sale have been resolved. Nope, I'm not buying it either.

Best thing to do is just avoid eBay entirely. At this point I think they're just creating these policies for their own amusement, to see exactly how much crap the lemmings will put up with and still do business with them.

[GuitarGuy510]

We wanted our sellers to focus on hoping their buyers don't try to screw them for the 2+ month period following the auction, and we believe this feature will be of great help for buyers because they now have yet another way to try to scam money out of the deal by holding threats of negative feedback over the seller's head.


Fixed. :D

Man the feedback system has become such a joke these days, all for the buyer and screw the seller. I'm about ready to retire my account and stick with Craigslist. Smaller audience but at least I know the dude I'm meeting on craigslist isn't going to come at me 2 months later demanding money back for something he decided wasn't working out for him. :puh Why does a buyer really need 2 months to make up their mind that something was wrong? I really don't get that part of the deal.

[Suproman77]

Obviously their spin is that dissatisfied buyers will be able to change negative feedback to positive when their issues with the sale have been resolved. Nope, I'm not buying it either.

That makes sense, but being able to do it the other way around shouldn't be allowed. That could result in shakedowns.

The way it is now, I believe you can update your feedback comments, but it still leaves the original rating and comments in place. What's wrong with that?

[drgonzoguitar]

You are going to see a lot of people with less than 10 feedbacks. People will get one negative, close their account, and reopen under a different email address.

[ReddRanger]

I'm confused, I thought they did away with negative feedback recently?

[Luke]

I'm confused, I thought they did away with negative feedback recently?

Sellers can no longer leave a negative, even if they never get paid, the buyer charges back on their credit card, etc...

Buyers can attempt to change the terms of the sale after they won and if you refuse, drop you a negative all within 3 minutes of the auction close. Wanna guess how I know? :FM:FM:FM:FM:FM:FM

[stratman34]

Their feedback system now is perfectly geared toward buyers. Unless you are a big business and using your feedback as a customer satisfaction index could you make that work. An average seller (translated individual human being), should not be forced to make amends on the sale of used gear when all tools are 100% leaned toward the buyer. With zero leverage comes zero protection. Congratulations you are now at the mercy of the 'ethics' of the buyer. We all know how good those can be!

There was a day when I wouldn't deal with anyone who wasn't 100% positive. Now I just won't deal at all! Bye, bye eBay, alas I knew you when....

[-Analog-]

The new feedback system is horrific. I ran an ebay store for 3 years at work and we just stopped because of the "Feedback Hijacking" that happens, we've literally had buyers threaten our spotless record with negative feedbacks over items that have a value less then the cost of a pack of smokes, in the long run now- the buyer can trample the seller, they have numerous methods of exploiting the seller, feedback,paypal complaints,mail order games, just keeps going on and on.

Ebay continues to Re-tool and drive in the wrong direction imho, at the moment their fee structure is so high, .35 to list a $200 item and they take $13 if you sell it - it feels wrong to me- The .35 cents covers the expense of listing, whats this $13.80?? - its just a matter of "WE TAKE IT BECAUSE WE CAN" and what cracks me up : ebay own's paypal!!! So ontop of the ebay fee's they wack you for- ebay make's additional money when you pay or receive moola..

I understand they need to make their slice of the pie but what their doing is border line on cruel and their slipping listing stats show this. If it cost $.99 to list any item up to $500 in value flat rate they would make MORE money just in sheer volume of sales vs the current slow sale pace.


Obviously nobody in their staff meetings has said "PIGS GET SLAUGHTERED" -

[hackenfort]

I really get the feeling e-bay doesn't want the small time sellers anymore. Use to be mostly used stuff at very reasonable prices on ebay (Garage Sale type stuff in every area) These days I see more new items and quite often the price with shipping is quite a bit higher than I can buy the same localy.

[Blue Fin]

Another good reason to stay away.

[AR-305]

And let's not forget our good buddy PayPal! I know now that they sell your info and buying/selling habits (as does Ebay) to spammers and probably anyone wishing to monitor your habits. I inherited a really nice old Mickey Mouse watch. So I checked the listings for a while to see what it was worth. Now I get 20 or 30 spams per day advertising fake rolex watches (and worse) on my verified email address. My pay pal account has since been closed and if a seller won't accept a USPS money order I don't need it that bad.

[DaveF]

I'll still buy on ebay, but I will never again sell.

[-Analog-]

what the world could benefit from is a Rival auction site without all the BS!!

just a flat rate-

[whitehall]

Ebay's overall marketing leaves a lot to be questioned. I get the part that they want to pretend they are a giant mail order place. They almost never use the word auction anymore. They want to sucker the public into believing that buying a used item at auction from a stranger is the exact same as walking into a store.... with the same return policy. But ,um buyers don't pay ebay or paypal fees. It seems ebay wants to force out all the little guy sellers and just have ebay stores.

[Luke]

I read somewhere that this is exactly what the new management wants to do. It seems Meg Whitman was pushed out to me, regardless of her claims to only want a 10 year run.


Ebay's overall marketing leaves a lot to be questioned. I get the part that they want to pretend they are a giant mail order place. They almost never use the word auction anymore. They want to sucker the public into believing that buying a used item at auction from a stranger is the exact same as walking into a store.... with the same return policy. But ,um buyers don't pay ebay or paypal fees. It seems ebay wants to force out all the little guy sellers and just have ebay stores.

[tonedaddy]

Ebay is the debil.

[fullerplast]

Why Ebay works for many of us:


I listed an expensive (and perfect) vintage guitar in the Emporium for two weeks. Got lots of thumbs ups but no takers. Put it on ebay, and within three days it sold for 50% more than my TGP asking price.

Be like Robert Johnson and deal with the debil.;)

[Guitar Josh]

Let me tell you guys something - your feedback score is artificial. People will buy REGARDLESS. Hell, people still buy from people with negative scores!!

eBay is fubared.

[Lawn Jockey]

Do the eBay minions realize that without SELLERS they have no BUYERS?

[gearitis]

what the world could benefit from is a Rival auction site without all the BS!!

just a flat rate-


I really hope that http://www.mygear.com/ takes off. It is a flat fee to list with no final value fees.

Also, on eBay you now have to look at a person's entire feedback history as their % rating is now based on just the past 12 months.

[DaveG]

And let's not forget our good buddy PayPal! I know now that they sell your info and buying/selling habits (as does Ebay) to spammers and probably anyone wishing to monitor your habits. I inherited a really nice old Mickey Mouse watch. So I checked the listings for a while to see what it was worth. Now I get 20 or 30 spams per day advertising fake rolex watches (and worse) on my verified email address. My pay pal account has since been closed and if a seller won't accept a USPS money order I don't need it that bad.

I don't think it has anything to do with Paypal... spam seems to go in cycles. For 3-4 weeks, my spam folder is loaded with nothing but stock scams, then it's a month of "enlargement" products, and lately, it's been fake watches.

[fullerplast]

I really hope that http://www.mygear.com/ takes off. It is a flat fee to list with no final value fees.

Also, on eBay you now have to look at a person's entire feedback history as their % rating is now based on just the past 12 months.

I looked at that site. There are a total of 6 telecasters listed.:joBut I know, they have to start somewhere.....

The fees are as follows: No listing fee, 1% reserve fee, $4.95 buy it now fee, 3% Final value fee.

Compared with ebay, for a $2500 guitar straight auction, Mygear total fee is $75. Ebay total fee is $62.81.

There is no feedback system, there is no real recourse in the event of fraud. It's pretty much "use at your own risk". There is a "short" (relative to Ebay) User Agreement as follows:

Welcome to mygear.com (the "Site"). The Site provides the ability for sellers and buyers of musical instruments and related equipment the opportunity to enter into transactions with one another. The procedures for the use of MYGEAR, Inc.'s services ("Services") are set forth in this User Agreement and on the Site. In order to use the Services offered by MYGEAR, Inc. on the Site, a user must agree to the terms and conditions set forth below. A user is required to register with MYGEAR, Inc. to use the Site and the Services offered. The user must consent to this User Agreement as a condition to accessing the Site and utilizing the Services.
This User Agreement may be modified from time to time by MYGEAR, Inc. ("MYGEAR"). In the event this User Agreement is modified, MYGEAR will notify the user, at which time the user will be asked to accept the changes. The user's continued use of the Site will be conditioned upon acceptance of the modifications to the User Agreement.
1. Eligible Users. To be a user of MYGEAR, a person must be 18 years of age or older, with the legal capacity to enter into contracts. MYGEAR reserves the right to prohibit any person from accessing the Site or using the Services for any or no reason.
2. Policies and Prohibited Conduct. The user agrees to follow the procedures of MYGEAR, which are set forth on the Site, all of which are incorporated into this User Agreement by reference. Furthermore, prohibited conduct includes, but is not limited to, the following: a. The posting of language or conduct which is offensive in any way, in MYGEAR's sole discretion; b. The posting of false, inaccurate or misleading information; c. Actions which are in violation of any applicable laws or for an unlawful purpose or infringe upon the rights of third parties; d. Taking any action to alter, distort or obscure the information posted by others; e. Taking any action to artificially to alter the price of any item offered for sale to the Site; f. The failure to pay any fees associated with use of the Site; and g. The failure to abide by agreements entered into by the user through the Site.
A user's breach of this Agreement in MYGEAR's sole discretion will result in termination of the user's privileges to use the Site and the Services. In addition, MYGEAR reserves the right to pursue all remedies in law and equity for the breach of this User Agreement. MYGEAR further reserves the right to suspend a user's access to the Site and utilization of the Services at any time if MYGEAR believes or suspects that the user is engaged in illegal or improper conduct, in MYGEAR's sole discretion.
3. Listing Services. MYGEAR is a listing service which allows users to sell items that the user owns and to purchase items posted by others. Potential sellers may post information on the site regarding items for sale. MYGEAR does not own any of the listed items and is not the seller of any listed item. MYGEAR makes no warranty or representation as to the ownership of any posted item, whether there are any liens or encumbrances on the posted item, the quality of the posted item, or any representation regarding the description of the posted item.
4. No Warranties. MYGEAR makes no representations or warranties about the Site, its Services or the listed item. All use of the Site is on a "AS IS" basis. MYGEAR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY, THE IMPLIED WARRANTY OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND WARRANTIES OF NON-INFRINGEMENT. MYGEAR DOES NOT MAKE REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES THAT THE USER WILL BE ABLE TO USE OR ACCESS THE SITE OR THE SERVICES AT ANY GIVEN TIME. If the user is a California resident, user expressly waives California's Civil Code Section1542, which states: "A general release does not extend to claims which the creditor does not know or suspect to exist in his or her favor at the time of executing the release, which if known by him or her must have materially affected his or her settlement with the debtor." The user agrees that the the waivers set forth in this provision are essential and material terms of this User Agreement and without such waivers, MYGEAR would not have entered into this User Agreement.
5. Releases. The user releases MYGEAR, its employees, officers, directors, employees, contractors, agents and assigns from any and all claims, damages (actual and consequential), liabilities and causes of action, known or unknown, relating to or arising out of transactions that originate from or are in any way connected to the Site or the Services.
6. Limitation of Liability. User agrees that MYGEAR is not liable for any damages of any kind including, but not limited to, direct, indirect, consequential, special, punitiveor exemplary damages arising out of or in any way relating to the Site, the use of the Services, the inability to use the Services or the items sold or acquired through the Site. In all events, MYGEAR's liability to user is limited to the amounts paid by user in fees to MYGEAR
7. Indemnity. User agrees to indemnify and hold harmless MYGEAR from any and all claims, actions or demands, including MYGEAR's reasonable attorney fees, resulting from any claims made by third parties due to user's use of the Site, utilization of the Services and/or breach of this User Agreement.
8. Limitations on Use. MYGEAR grants to the user a limited license to the use Site and Services as set forth in this User Agreement and as provided on the Site. This license specifically excludes the use of the Site, MYGEAR's software or MYGEAR's source code associated with the Site in any other way except as provided in this User Agreement and as permitted by MYGEAR on the Site. All trademark, copyright, trade name, trade dress and other intellectual property law rights associated with the Site and the Services are reserved solely with MYGEAR
9. Use by MYGEAR. The user grants to MYGEAR an irrevocable and perpetual license, without cost or fee to MYGEAR, to utilize any content provided by user in connection with the Site or the Services.
10. Arbitration. Except for matters involving trademarks, trade names, copyrights, trade dress and/or other intellectual property law matters, all disputes or controversies between MYGEAR and user shall be resolved by one arbitrator in arbitration conducted through the Commercial Dispute Rules of the American Arbitration Association. Any arbitration conducted pursuant to this section shall be held in Lansing, Michigan.
11. Miscellaneous. This User Agreement contains the entire agreement between the parties concerning the Site and the Services. This User Agreement can only be amended by a written instrument specifically referencing this User Agreement as authorized by MYGEAR. The unenforceability, invalidity, or illegality of any provision of this User Agreement will not render the other provisions unenforceable, invalid or illegal. No party may assign its rights and obligations under this User Agreement without prior written consent of the other party. This User Agreement shall be binding upon and inure to the benefit of the parties hereto, their officers, directors, agents, successors and assigns. In the interpretation of this User Agreement, it shall be construed as if it were written by both parties, with no inference or presumption claim either for or against either party by virtue of who might have prepared this User Agreement or any of its terms. This User Agreement shall be governed and controlled in all respects by the laws of the State of Michigan.

Based on the above, Mygear has an uphill battle, IMHO.

[MuseCafeChris]

Let me tell you guys something - your feedback score is artificial. People will buy REGARDLESS. Hell, people still buy from people with negative scores!!

eBay is fubared.

Yes. In fact, people's paralyzing fear of having their precious feedback ratings blemished by retaliatory negs is a huge reason why scumbags have been able to run roughshod over eBay and bring it to the condition it's in today.

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

Ebay is the debil.




+666 :messedup


I will sell until my perfect 10 year feedback gets trashed, then I will put a disclaimer in any auction. If ebay want's to banninnate me for it, then fine, screw em. :mad:

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

I looked at that site. There are a total of 6 telecasters listed.:joBut I know, they have to start somewhere.....

The fees are as follows: No listing fee, 1% reserve fee, $4.95 buy it now fee, 3% Final value fee.

Compared with ebay, for a $2500 guitar straight auction, Mygear total fee is $75. Ebay total fee is $62.81.

There is no feedback system, there is no real recourse in the event of fraud. It's pretty much "use at your own risk". There is a "short" (relative to Ebay) User Agreement as follows:


Based on the above, Mygear has an uphill battle, IMHO.



If it does take off, Ebay will just buy it. That's what they do with any threatening competition. :cry:

[fullerplast]

If it does take off, Ebay will just buy it. That's what they do with any threatening competition. :cry:

Not sure at this point why it would take off....but it is heavily skewed to the seller's advantage, even more than ebay is skewed to the buyer's advantage. For sellers, with no listing fee and no fear of buyer recourse, it's pretty much "throw it out there and see what sticks". Of course mygear makes no money out of that, but it's really the only way they can establish a base and get people to list.

What's the better business model.....do comfortable sellers with little risk draw more buyers or do comfortable buyers with little risk draw more sellers?

My money is on the comfortable buyer model. It actually encourages cleaner deals overall. It's far easier (and common) to have a bad seller than a bad buyer. That's why the ebay rules have evolved the way they have.

[mark norwine]

I'll still buy on ebay, but I will never again sell.

Me, too. That's the conclusion I've come to......

[MLT]

I won't sell on eBay. Period.

I can't wait until this insane behavior affects their bottom line.

Whoever is running eBay has lost his mind.

Their feedback system now is perfectly geared toward buyers. Unless you are a big business and using your feedback as a customer satisfaction index could you make that work. An average seller (translated individual human being), should not be forced to make amends on the sale of used gear when all tools are 100% leaned toward the buyer. With zero leverage comes zero protection. Congratulations you are now at the mercy of the 'ethics' of the buyer. We all know how good those can be!

There was a day when I wouldn't deal with anyone who wasn't 100% positive. Now I just won't deal at all! Bye, bye eBay, alas I knew you when....

[Guitar Josh]

Yes. In fact, people's paralyzing fear of having their precious feedback ratings blemished by retaliatory negs is a huge reason why scumbags have been able to run roughshod over eBay and bring it to the condition it's in today.

MCC preaches the good word. This the reason.

[s2amps]

"Mygear total fee is $75. Ebay total fee is $62.81"

I see that on MyGear's fee structure page too, there isn't actually any way to place a straight up auction as of right now. All it will let me do is place an ad for a flat fee.

[fullerplast]

"Mygear total fee is $75. Ebay total fee is $62.81"

I see that on MyGear's fee structure page too, there isn't actually any way to place a straight up auction as of right now. All it will let me do is place an ad for a flat fee.

Strange.....

Note also, that all auctions must be started at a flat $4.95 starting bid. That pretty much forces you into a reserve fee if you want any price protection at all....or I guess you can cancel an auction, but there is absolutely no mention of how that is handled or if it is allowed.

Wanna bet their User Agreement gets a whole lot bigger?:)

[FlyingDutchman]

Im done selling on ebay..I'll buy there though. Its too bad because Ive sold alot more than Ive purchased on ebay over the last eight years or so.

Ive had alot of good selling experiences recently on Craigslist. Im going that route till something better comes along.

[fugot]

ebay is on wack since this summer, that is why all these decisions have been made.

i wonder what their next quarterly's will look like? clowns...

[fullerplast]

i wonder what their next quarterly's will look like? clowns...

Gee.....think maybe they might be down because they changed those damn feedback rules again? Or maybe they'll be down just like every other business on the planet...... because nobody is spending money? :jo

[rewog]

what the world could benefit from is a Rival auction site without all the BS!!

just a flat rate-

Absolutely !!!!

[retrobob]

Soon ebay will be all buyers and no sellers. That should work well!

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

I guess if you are a seller you have to make clear all sales final !! No refunds or partial refunds.... and not responsible for any shipping damage. Only prob with that is you won't get crap $$$ for your gear. :messedup

[rewog]

It's pretty surprising that a viable alternative hasn't come about.
It would seem to be potentially a highly profitable business, and Ebay seems to be almost universally hated.

[Vintage]

I think Im done selling and buying on eBay. Got ripped of on an amp purchase two months ago and paypal only refunded $200 of the $900 I paid for it.

[whitehall]

I guess if you are a seller you have to make clear all sales final !! No refunds or partial refunds.... and not responsible for any shipping damage. Only prob with that is you won't get crap $$$ for your gear. :messedup

This is a large part of the problem. It doesn't matter what you say. The buyer can still dispute it and get his money back. PP will freeze the sellers funds, and ebay will urge the two parties to work it out among themselves. Buyers know this and will scam you for partial refunds all day long.

[rewog]

This is a large part of the problem. It doesn't matter what you say. The buyer can still dispute it and get his money back. PP will freeze the sellers funds, and ebay will urge the two parties to work it out among themselves. Buyers know this and will scam you for partial refunds all day long.

The second part of the problem is trying to communicate with Ebay and make someone understand your problem.
It seems they have canned responses to all complaints, you never deal with the same person twice, and they just run you in circles until you give up in frustration.
PayPal is the same.

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

The second part of the problem is trying to communicate with Ebay and make someone understand your problem.
It seems they have canned responses to all complaints, you never deal with the same person twice, and they just run you in circles until you give up in frustration.
PayPal is the same.


Oh well, it was good while it lasted. :bong

I wish there would be someone to get a powerful auction site up and established who refused to sell out to ebay ( ebay seems to buy up any real competition ).

[Tonefish]

I believe eBay has been moving in a positive direction except for one thing. I think it is important that the buyer is happy and it really forces complete disclosure about a product from the seller. Too often sellers try to gloss over imperfections which frankly make 10s of percentage differences in the value of a product. And since most buyers really want the product otherwise they wouldn't go to all the trouble or put out their hard-earned money, it is really the seller that must step up to be totally honest about what they are selling and truly be aiming to please the buyer...I know I always am.

So the one problem is protection for the seller against a buyer who is buying to cop parts or to try something out and then return it. I believe they should have a system where a buyer like that can be reported. Realizing there probably isn't much that can be done the first time they try this, if it becomes a pattern, they ought to come down hard on the buyer. With more than one seller reporting the same issue, they need to take that seriously and show sellers that they are valued and protected too.

[Smakutus]

PayPal is the same.

Paypal was very good to deal with via the phone for me last year.. They give you a claim number and anyone you talk to can go back and read what has happened so far via the phone so you don't need to talk to the same person each time.

Dealing with them via e-mail is a waste of time other than getting things going. All canned responses days later etc etc..

Jeff

[telecopter]

I'll still buy on ebay, but I will never again sell.

Dittos!!! :mob

[fullerplast]

I'll still buy on ebay, but I will never again sell.

Hmmm.....so if all the buyers flock to Ebay, while all the sellers flock to Mygear that should ironically mean that the sellers that remain on EBay will have much better returns (fewer sellers, more buyers), while the buyers that use Mygear (more sellers, few buyers) will find better bargains (albeit at virtually no protection).

IMHO, the rampant buyer scam aspect of Ebay has been a bit overplayed. I've personally never experienced it, nor has anybody I know experienced it over hundreds of sales, but I am aware that there are a few (generally very vocal and angry) folks here that have gotten burned, so I'm sure it does happen. I've found however that in some of these cases, if you can actually get the details and hear both sides of the story, it's not always as clear cut a story as the teller would like you to believe.

[GuitarGuy510]

This is a large part of the problem. It doesn't matter what you say. The buyer can still dispute it and get his money back. PP will freeze the sellers funds, and ebay will urge the two parties to work it out among themselves. Buyers know this and will scam you for partial refunds all day long.


Yep. :( I've had 100% positive with well over 200+ musical purchases and sales since like 2001 or so I believe. Recently it's just been getting worse and worse dealing with buyers on eBay! :rotflmao I sold a strat a month or so ago and I always test the guitar RIGHT before I pack it up to ensure everything is okay (setup, electronics etc.), put on a fresh set of strings and stretch them, wipe it down and polish it then pack it up. The guy gets the guitar and claims the switch is full of static and won't work in any of the positions and required money back to pay for a new switch, the install (and he even wanted some extra on top of that to have it setup for non-standard tuning with thicker strings :huh). He said if I didn't do it I was getting the negative because it wasn't listed in the auction, and if I didn't do it not only would I get dinged on feedback but he was going to file a claim to get his money back. Right, it wasn't mentioned because that issue WASN'T THERE! :mob

Very frustrating to say the least, I just paid him for the switch and install. I actually told him I needed a scan of the receipt before I'd send him anything, which he did but then complained about having to pay for the setup himself. :rotflmao Yeah... I don't remember that being listed in the auction... "Please note I will pay you back the money you gave me so you can have the guitar setup by your personal tech!" I prefer dealing with TGP (and other forum) guys and gals, for the most part people on here are much more professional and if they have an issue with something they're reasonable about it. :)

[Smakutus]

Yep. :( I've had 100% positive with well over 200+ musical purchases and sales since like 2001 or so I believe. Recently it's just been getting worse and worse dealing with buyers on eBay! :rotflmao I sold a strat a month or so ago and I always test the guitar RIGHT before I pack it up to ensure everything is okay (setup, electronics etc.), put on a fresh set of strings and stretch them, wipe it down and polish it then pack it up. The guy gets the guitar and claims the switch is full of static and won't work in any of the positions and required money back to pay for a new switch, the install (and he even wanted some extra on top of that to have it setup for non-standard tuning with thicker strings :huh). He said if I didn't do it I was getting the negative because it wasn't listed in the auction, and if I didn't do it not only would I get dinged on feedback but he was going to file a claim to get his money back. Right, it wasn't mentioned because that issue WASN'T THERE! :mob

Very frustrating to say the least, I just paid him for the switch and install. I actually told him I needed a scan of the receipt before I'd send him anything, which he did but then complained about having to pay for the setup himself. :rotflmao Yeah... I don't remember that being listed in the auction... "Please note I will pay you back the money you gave me so you can have the guitar setup by your personal tech!" I prefer dealing with TGP (and other forum) guys and gals, for the most part people on here are much more professional and if they have an issue with something they're reasonable about it. :)

Never give money back.. Tell these types to send the guitar back and you'll give them a refund. Most of the time you won't hear anything more from them. They just want to see if you'll give some back..

Jeff

[fugot]

just food for thought,


the only time i have had a problem on ebay was from a seller who i paid and then vanished (he had lots of feedback all good)...i filed a claim with paypal & ebay. paypal said sorry, i won the claim but all his bank and credit accounts were deleted, so they could not reimburse my payment. but they did send me a thankyou email for using paypal, which said to the effect thanks for using paypal..."the safe way to make payments".... hilarous, except i was out $200...

for what it is worth, i always put in my auctions...please ask questions before bidding, honestly described, but sold as is. because that is the truth ruth!! on the one occasion i screwed up and forgot to mention a wood chip in an ovation elite epaullette (which was shown in the pictures-i just spaced it), i gave some $ back and sent him a new epaullette that i got from the ovation factory.

there is something to be said for your local guitar store/ luthier. !!!!!!!!!!!!

[fullerplast]

i filed a claim with paypal & ebay. paypal said sorry, i won the claim but all his bank and credit accounts were deleted, so they could not reimburse my payment. but they did send me a thankyou email for using paypal, which said to the effect thanks for using paypal..."the safe way to make payments".... hilarous, except i was out $200...

There seems to be a very common misconception that Paypal is some sort of insurance company that pays out when deals go bad. All they ever promise to do is recoup whatever they can from the account of the other side. If that guy skips town, they don't foot the bill. Same as if you sent a money order and the guy skips out. If you paid by credit card however, you have the ability to do a charge back. Paypal does not have that ability.

[bocaboy]

There seems to be a very common misconception that Paypal is some sort of insurance company that pays out when deals go bad. All they ever promise to do is recoup whatever they can from the account of the other side. If that guy skips town, they don't foot the bill. Same as if you sent a money order and the guy skips out. If you paid by credit card however, you have the ability to do a charge back. Paypal does not have that ability.



So basically Paypal is worthless. I would imagine that a person that purposely sold you an item with the intent of ripping you off would immediatley pull the funds from Paypal before you found out it was a scam. It would have to be a pretty dumb crook to leave money in his Paypal account after he ripped you off.

I did a chargeback once through my credit card company on Paypal before, it was before ebay bought them so things may have changed. When I did the chargeback, ebay immediatley suspended my account, and made it negative the amount that was charged back. I bought a guitar for 2000.00, and when I received it the guitar had been refinned and had a couple other issues as well. I contacted the seller and told them I wanted to return the guitar, and my money back. The seller refused to take the guitar in return. After going back and forth for a week with the seller I finally called my CC company and told them I wanted to do a charge back. Since the seller was refusing to take my item back, and I had documented proof of that they allowed the chargeback. I still had the guitar, and was figuring that this would force the hand of the seller to accept the return. Well I never heard from the seller again, and then my Paypal account was locked up with my money in it. I still had money in that was mine. Paypal wanted the 2000.00 from me, since I assume the seller took the money on thier end. Well I finally decided that I had better just pay the money back to Paypal, since I do sell a lot on there, and a lot of people use it. So I sent the 2000.00 back into my account figuring that would solve everything. WRONG! My account was still frozen with my money still in it from before (around 500.00). I called them tried to talk it out, went round robin for about 2 months and I finally just gave up. This was before they ever had contact information on thier website. I had to go to www.paypalsucks.com (http://www.paypalsucks.com) to get it. I got in on one of the class action lawsuits, but never saw anything from it, then they were bought out by ebay.
I do have a Paypal account again. I really wish I did not have to have the account, but it is a neccassary evil when you buy and sell on ebay. I know the system has changed since then, but I am not sure about how a chargeback would be handled by them now. I would assume they still would want the money.

[rewog]

There seems to be a very common misconception that Paypal is some sort of insurance company that pays out when deals go bad. All they ever promise to do is recoup whatever they can from the account of the other side. If that guy skips town, they don't foot the bill. Same as if you sent a money order and the guy skips out. If you paid by credit card however, you have the ability to do a charge back. Paypal does not have that ability.

Not True:-

PayPal statement on Seller Protection:-

11.2 How much protection is provided by PayPal seller protection?

PayPal will protect you for the full amount of the eligible Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable. There is no annual limit on protection.

PayPal statement on Buyer Protection:-

How much coverage do I get with PayPal Buyer Protection?

If you see the eBay.com buyer protection message "Pay with PayPal and you’re covered", and if PayPal finds in your favor on your Claim, PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs – with no cap on coverage. If the buyer protection message includes a cap on coverage (such as the message on eBay.ca above), and if PayPal finds in your favor, then PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs, up to the coverage cap specified in the buyer protection message.

And then Ebay's statement on Buyer Safety - one of the reasons they keep trying to make Ebay users pay with PayPal:-

PayPal Buyer Protection (http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/tp/paypal-protection.html) is designed to protect you while shopping on eBay.com So if you pay for your item with PayPal and it's significantly different to its description or you don’t receive it at all, you may be eligible for up to $20,000 in free PayPal Buyer Protection*.

[Luke]

That reads great, but find people who have experienced Paypal digging into their own pocket to reimburse them under the scenario you are refuting.

I have read many times and personally experienced the following scenario:

Deal goes bad, other party keeps their Paypal account balance at $5 so recouping your money is impossible. Paypal will freeze the person's account, place them for collection with NCO, send them emails, letters and make a few phone calls, but I have NEVER heard of them actually taking the lose themselves unless the buyer did a chargeback via their credit card.

If you buy with your cc via Paypal you do not need their "protections", you have the chargeback ability. You'd be stupid to pay any other way quite frankly. A cc Paypal buyer holds all the chips.

Not True:-

PayPal statement on Seller Protection:-

11.2 How much protection is provided by PayPal seller protection?

PayPal will protect you for the full amount of the eligible Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable. There is no annual limit on protection.

PayPal statement on Buyer Protection:-

How much coverage do I get with PayPal Buyer Protection?

If you see the eBay.com buyer protection message "Pay with PayPal and you’re covered", and if PayPal finds in your favor on your Claim, PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs – with no cap on coverage. If the buyer protection message includes a cap on coverage (such as the message on eBay.ca above), and if PayPal finds in your favor, then PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs, up to the coverage cap specified in the buyer protection message.

And then Ebay's statement on Buyer Safety - one of the reasons they keep trying to make Ebay users pay with PayPal:-

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=%5BCacheBuster%5D&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=4&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.ebay.com.au%2Fhelp%2Ftp%2F paypal-protection.htmlPayPal Buyer Protection (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.ebay.com.au%2Fhelp%2Ftp%2F paypal-protection.html) is designed to protect you while shopping on eBay.com So if you pay for your item with PayPal and it's significantly different to its description or you don’t receive it at all, you may be eligible for up to $20,000 in free PayPal Buyer Protection*.

[rewog]

That reads great, but find people who have experienced Paypal digging into their own pocket to reimburse them under the scenario you are refuting.

I have read many times and personally experienced the following scenario:

Deal goes bad, other party keeps their Paypal account balance at $5 so recouping your money is impossible. Paypal will freeze the person's account, place them for collection with NCO, send them emails, letters and make a few phone calls, but I have NEVER heard of them actually taking the lose themselves unless the buyer did a chargeback via their credit card.

If you buy with your cc via Paypal you do not need their "protections", you have the chargeback ability. You'd be stupid to pay any other way quite frankly. A cc Paypal buyer holds all the chips.

I wasn't saying PayPal do it.. I was replying to Fullerplast's statement that they never claimed to guarantee anything... :YinYang
They clearly do claim that they guarantee your purchase if you meet their terms, and it is of course a legal contract at the end of the day.

I'm not sure what you meant by "the scenario you're refuting", but my person opinion of both Ebay and PayPal is that they suck... I certainly wasn't defending them.

[MetalGuitard]

Wonderful...just another reason to Buy and Sell Here instead of ebay

Word up.

The world...
:mob


eBay...
:Devil

[bocaboy]

I wasn't saying PayPal do it.. I was replying to bocaboy's statement that they never claimed to guarantee anything... :YinYang
They clearly do claim that they guarantee your purchase if you meet their terms, and it is of course a legal contract at the end of the day.

I'm not sure what you meant by "the scenario you're refuting", but my person opinion of both Ebay and PayPal is that they suck... I certainly wasn't defending them.


I never claimed that they did not guarantee anything. I was just stating my real life experience with them. Fullerpast was the one that claimed that they do not guarantee anything.

[rewog]

I never claimed that they did not guarantee anything. I was just stating my real life experience with them. Fullerpast was the one that claimed that they do not guarantee anything.

Oh yeah sorry... I looked at the wrong post when I grabbed the name... :)
changed

[bocaboy]

No Prob :)

[fullerplast]

Not True:-

PayPal statement on Seller Protection:-



This type of thing is exactly why people are mislead into thinking they are "insured" for bad deals.
First off, you are quoting from rules that have not even gone into effect:
The following terms are effective for transactions made on or after 10/31/08.

Second, it is out of context and only applies to a very, very limited circircumstances, under very, very specific conditions. For example, the paragraph before the one you posted reads;


11.1 What is PayPal seller protection?



Protection for Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals based on the following reasons:

Unauthorized Payment
Item Not Received
Seller protection is available for transactions with buyers everywhere PayPal is accepted. Seller protection does not provide protection for Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals or for items that you deliver in person.
Then, you have to read sections 11.4 and 11.5 to find out what constitutes Unauthorized payment and Item not Received to see if you've met the many conditions.

As Luke said, for most people, they will not qualify for any type of Paypal funded reimbursement for deals gone bad. It's best to assume that they will only try to recover funds from the other parties account. Per the very first paragraph that you skipped over; this sets the tone of the Paypal agreement:



1. Our Relationship With You.
1.1 PayPal is only a Payment Service Provider. PayPal helps you make payments to and accept payments from third parties. PayPal is an independent contractor for all purposes, except that PayPal acts as your agent only with respect to the custody of your funds. PayPal does not have control of or liability for the products or services that are paid for with our Service. We do not guarantee the identity of any User or ensure that a buyer or a seller will complete a transaction.
Read all the terms and conditions to understand what you signed up to: Paypal User Agreement (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_buyer_complaint-outside#pbp-policy)

[Luke]

I can go to Home Depot and purchase a tube of caulk that CLEARLY guarantees me 30 years, waterproof adhesion.

ALL I HAVE TO DO TO RECEIVE MY REIMBURSEMENT IS:

1. Have my receipt 29 years and 352 days from now.
2. Have the container from which the caulk came out of.
3. Provide proof, I suppose via photos, the product failed
4. Hope the company still exists
5. Send them all of the aforementioned items.

Once I can meet all of those terms, they MIGHT send me my $2.50, which 29 years from now have the purchasing power of $1 today.

I will probably incur $6 in mailing fees to send the tube to them at that time and use about 30 minutes of my time.

So yes there is a guarantee in place, thanks for nothing.



I wasn't saying PayPal do it.. I was replying to Fullerplast's statement that they never claimed to guarantee anything... :YinYang
They clearly do claim that they guarantee your purchase if you meet their terms, and it is of course a legal contract at the end of the day.

I'm not sure what you meant by "the scenario you're refuting", but my person opinion of both Ebay and PayPal is that they suck... I certainly wasn't defending them.

[rewog]

This type of thing is exactly why people are mislead into thinking they are "insured" for bad deals.
First off, you are quoting from rules that have not even gone into effect:

Quote:
The following terms are effective for transactions made on or after 10/31/08.

Second, it is out of context and only applies to a very, very limited circircumstances, under very, very specific conditions. For example, the paragraph before the one you posted reads;




If these rules will apply to all transactions that take place after the 31st of this month (in 1 week), then I think they're the most valid for a discussion on current Ebay policy - and the original topic of the thread is about the Ebay system changing again.

Of course they have a host of conditions and disclaimers (like most companies) - to try to avoid paying as much as possible, but the bottom line is that they do, under certain circumstances, offer a PayPal funded refund.
So, the statement: "There seems to be a very common misconception that Paypal is some sort of insurance company that pays out when deals go bad. All they ever promise to do is recoup whatever they can from the account of the other side. If that guy skips town, they don't foot the bill. " is incorrect.


Then, you have to read sections 11.4 and 11.5 to find out what constitutes Unauthorized payment and Item not Received to see if you've met the many conditions.


Paragraph 11.4 says that the Seller must be Verified - pretty basic.
Paragraph 11.5 - there is no paragraph 11.5 in the buyers protection section ?

BTW - The Buyer Protection offered by PayPal in Australia is up to $20,000.00... and it IS in effect now.

[MuseCafeChris]

I can go to Home Depot and purchase a tube of caulk that CLEARLY guarantees me 30 years, waterproof adhesion.

ALL I HAVE TO DO TO RECEIVE MY REIMBURSEMENT IS:

1. Have my receipt 29 years and 352 days from now.
2. Have the container from which the caulk came out of.
3. Provide proof, I suppose via photos, the product failed
4. Hope the company still exists
5. Send them all of the aforementioned items.

Once I can meet all of those terms, they MIGHT send me my $2.50, which 29 years from now have the purchasing power of $1 today.

I will probably incur $6 in mailing fees to send the tube to them at that time and use about 30 minutes of my time.

So yes there is a guarantee in place, thanks for nothing.

Guarantees are nothing more than marketing gimmicks to instill buyer confidence and hopefully hasten a sale. If said guarantees are even honored at all (meaning all the stipulations in the fine print haven't rendered it null and void) then the hoops you have to jump through to get satisfaction start cutting into the "what's my time worth?" end of things.

[axenelz]

The last time i sold something on ebay was the last time i'll use ebay. I listed an Amp 3 times, the first two buyers couldn't pay for it and the last buyer took 3 weeks to pay. Rediculous! Buyers have no motivation to do anything besides ignore the transaction if they don't want to complete it because there are no penalties for doing so.

[stratman34]

The most money I ever lost on eBay wasn't much compared to the amounts listed by some. I sold my 99 SS Camaro there by a BIN transaction. Got an email the next day saying his pre-k kid has messed with his computer and accidentially completed the auction.

Funny, about 6 hours after my auction and about 6 hours BEFORE the email, that same user ID also bought a used Vette. I lurked for a week or so and saw they actually completed that auction with mutual good feedback.

Guess the 4 year old meant to buy a Vette, but goofed on the Camaro. At least the kid had good taste in cars. eBay rejected my unpaying bidder claim, so I never saw a dime.

[shaneygoo]

+1 - screw ebay

[tubetone74]

I too have had it w/ eBay. I have over 200+ feedbacks (made many more + sales that people would not take the time to feedback). For a small time seller it sucks.

[Gear-Monkey]

what the world could benefit from is a Rival auction site without all the BS!!

just a flat rate-


Actually, it gets better. I've open to the public a free ebay alternative site exclusive for music gear. And free. No fees to list or sell. I made it free because something needs to be done about eBay. eBay use to be good back in the day, but they're getting out of line. It's time for us to step up and do our part.

Everyone is welcome to buy - sell - trade your music gear at http://gear-vault.com/classifieds - the home page is http://gear-vault.com

I don't mean to spam the forum. I just know how frustrating it is to watch ebay monopolize. Pass the word along about Gear-Vault and maybe we can help make an impact against eBay.

[nuthinew]

One thing I started doing last year to cover any headaches selling gear was to make a video of the gear I was selling being played so as to have proof that indeed it was in working order when I put it into the box. I emailed the video and put a disc in the box to go along with it. That way the buyer had no option to scam me as I had verifiable proof that said item was as dexcribed and worked.
just and idea to throw out there.....

[kingsxman]

I dont think its a bad thing to give the buyer a bit of upper hand on the seller. It does force the seller to be more honest in thier descriptions of the things they sell. When each side has the same rights to leave negative feedback....that helps even things out.

However, Ebay will only hurt themselves with this. I dont think people have to worry as it will change. If sellers get screwed...no one will sell. Last time I checked...I didnt pay an Ebay fee or a Paypal fee for buying. Ebay and Paypal make thier money on the sellers. If its not profitable to sell on ebay...people wont.

[phretbored]

Ebay might be hurting today (along with the rest of the economy) but they are not going to go out of business.
They are locked in as a key player in the global e-conomy.
It's not like the newspaper industry where they are literally losing the support of the reader base and advertiser base in droves because they are getting hit full force with a paradigm shift.
Ebay is nowhere near being a mature company yet...they will still have plenty of growth ahead.
In a couple years when the economy recovers I bet Ebay will come back strong on grow bigger than they are now.
If Ebay stock hits $10 or less I am buying some.
That way I can recoup all the Ebay fees and Paypal fees they charged me over the years. :)

All the people who have distaster experiences is a very small percentage of the total amount of positive transactions that happen.

For every person who refuses to use Ebay there is someone else either using it for the first time or coming back around and using it again after some downtime.

All that being said Ebay has changes a lot from the way it was.
I lliked Ebay much more years ago than the way things are now...but I still buy and sell there and will continue to do so.

[Tonefish]

One thing I started doing last year to cover any headaches selling gear was to make a video of the gear I was selling being played so as to have proof that indeed it was in working order when I put it into the box. I emailed the video and put a disc in the box to go along with it. That way the buyer had no option to scam me as I had verifiable proof that said item was as dexcribed and worked.
just and idea to throw out there.....

That's a great idea! I'd be curious if it could win a claim for you, but it should at least dissuade a shady buyer....cool!!!!!

[Peeb]

The most money I ever lost on eBay wasn't much compared to the amounts listed by some. I sold my 99 SS Camaro there by a BIN transaction. Got an email the next day saying his pre-k kid has messed with his computer and accidentially completed the auction.

Funny, about 6 hours after my auction and about 6 hours BEFORE the email, that same user ID also bought a used Vette. I lurked for a week or so and saw they actually completed that auction with mutual good feedback.

Guess the 4 year old meant to buy a Vette, but goofed on the Camaro. At least the kid had good taste in cars. eBay rejected my unpaying bidder claim, so I never saw a dime.
:rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmao