I'm noticing a huge shift in thinking around here...

[Jarrett]

I've been around TGP for a while now. Sometimes I leave for a while and then come back and its always kind of been the same. Really focused on getting boutique gear that sounds good to the player and sort of damn anything else. It didn't really seem to matter which amp or guitar or pedal of the month was in vogue at the time, the sentiment was always the same. "Will this gear sound and feel right to me when I play it" I'm 100% guilty of this myself in the past.

Now I'm seeing this slow undertone of a paradigm shift. I think it started as modeling became more and more accepted or at least that appears to be where it started and then the advent of the Axe-FX really propelled it forward. I think in larger part its also coupled with the explosion of P&W gigs and the different approach they require.

Less and less I'm seeing people say things like "this <gear> just didn't give me the mojo/vibe I was looking for when I played it" or "I need a 4x12 behind me pumping loud or the gig is no good" and now I'm starting to see more and more sentiments like "People really seem to like how this sounds in FOH" or "this FRFR monitor or IEM is giving me almost the same sound that's coming out of the mains"

I kind of see it as two things happening:

1. Players are becoming aware of the importance of how they are perceived in the FOH mix
2. Players are starting to think about the audience's enjoyment/participation of the performance

When you get to the root of the it sounds like the focus has started to shift from the thought paradigm of 100% "me" to now actually thinking about and including "them" in playing and gear choices.

I find this fairly remarkable. Thoughts?

[soulohio]

I loves me my VT40...damn the crowd and full speed ahead, you black emperor!

[Jahn]

One of the interesting things about the TGP is the makeup of the members. Unlike, say, an audiophile forum, the gear discussed here also serves the purpose of having to please in a performance for 3rd parties (the audience) if the TGPer plays out or posts on youtube or whatever. Yes, there's alot of back patting in the bedroom but there's also a practical crowd pleasing factor to consider, I agree.

[Big Tim]

I also see this trend in recent posts, but when going to shows things haven't changed much. Still too loud (and I'm young - 24) and still mixed pretty poorly. Haven't seen anyone playing low-wattage or modelers.

[Neill]

i haven't really seen it to be honest. seems like more of the same to me.

[MBreinin]

I play for myself at home. I need a 50 watt Plexi cranking in my living room...scaring the pets, sending my wife packing to the bedroom and the kids to the great outdoors to fully enjoy myself.

Or, I need to use my attenuator when they don't dig that idea. LOL.

Mike

[soulohio]

you mean that not everyone likes Ampeg? What is wrong with this world?

One of the interesting things about the TGP is the makeup of the members. Unlike, say, an audiophile forum, the gear discussed here also serves the purpose of having to please in a performance for 3rd parties (the audience) if the TGPer plays out or posts on youtube or whatever. Yes, there's alot of back patting in the bedroom but there's also a practical crowd pleasing factor to consider, I agree.

[shane88]

forums like this are mostly about gear but......as you say playing in a band isn't about individuals
and most of the audience most of the time couldn't care less what gear u r usin

[Peeb]

I also see this trend in recent posts, but when going to shows things haven't changed much. Still too loud (and I'm young - 24) and still mixed pretty poorly. Haven't seen anyone playing low-wattage or modelers.
Too-loud and poorly mixed is definitely the norm. Sad.

[Andrew D.]

Too-loud and poorly mixed is definitely the norm. Sad.

And each element can cause the other.

[BobbyFudge]

I loves me my VT40...damn the crowd and full speed ahead, you black emperor!
Word.

[Shiny McShine]

I've been around TGP for a while now. Sometimes I leave for a while and then come back and its always kind of been the same. Really focused on getting boutique gear that sounds good to the player and sort of damn anything else. It didn't really seem to matter which amp or guitar or pedal of the month was in vogue at the time, the sentiment was always the same. "Will this gear sound and feel right to me when I play it" I'm 100% guilty of this myself in the past.

Now I'm seeing this slow undertone of a paradigm shift. I think it started as modeling became more and more accepted or at least that appears to be where it started and then the advent of the Axe-FX really propelled it forward. I think in larger part its also coupled with the explosion of P&W gigs and the different approach they require.

Less and less I'm seeing people say things like "this <gear> just didn't give me the mojo/vibe I was looking for when I played it" or "I need a 4x12 behind me pumping loud or the gig is no good" and now I'm starting to see more and more sentiments like "People really seem to like how this sounds in FOH" or "this FRFR monitor or IEM is giving me almost the same sound that's coming out of the mains"

I kind of see it as two things happening:

1. Players are becoming aware of the importance of how they are perceived in the FOH mix
2. Players are starting to think about the audience's enjoyment/participation of the performance

When you get to the root of the it sounds like the focus has started to shift from the thought paradigm of 100% "me" to now actually thinking about and including "them" in playing and gear choices.

I find this fairly remarkable. Thoughts?

Not sure and I've been here a while (5 years or so). Certainly the acceptance of racks that the Axe-Fx has caused is new. Just the thought that a digital simulation is coming close enough to the real thing that it's creating controversy has softened the hard core boutique pedal mania that was present say 3 years ago. It seems like some are questioning the validity of getting the primary tone from a pedal also. I've noticed players saying that they aren't happy with pedal overdrive or that it's somehow disconnecting them from the amp.

[TieDyedDevil]

I kind of see it as two things happening:

1. Players are becoming aware of the importance of how they are perceived in the FOH mix
2. Players are starting to think about the audience's enjoyment/participation of the performance

and 3. Fewer venues are willing to acommodate or tolerate prima dona guitarists who want to get "their tone" at the expense of the overall musical experience for band and audience alike.


When you get to the root of the it sounds like the focus has started to shift from the thought paradigm of 100% "me" to now actually thinking about and including "them" in playing and gear choices.

I find this fairly remarkable. Thoughts?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Maybe we're (collectively) getting a clue...

[Tonefish]

Not seeing that...and I really don't want to :huh

[TommyMambo]

I'm totally old school but it's "whatever fits the song" that works best!

[Dog Boy]

I don't know about around here but a lot of pros have that mind set. Its all about the FOH.

When you take a Blackface Deluxe (cause that's all you will settle for) and pump it thru a 10k watt pa...it ain't a Deluxe anymore! So why bring your 2k (and appreciating) amp out on the road when a Blues Junior gets it done?

I have seen lots of touring boards and most of them have at least some Line 6 on them...Why? Cause in a FOH mix you can hardly tell the difference.

As to what inspires the player...totally different subject.

[whitehall]

I have more noticed the dearth of newbs more than anything else. Of course that is the lifeblood of any forum, but really kids, some of these posts -- what is crunch ? what is a Les Paul ? I mean really, do so many of them have no friends at all in real life ?

[clothwiring]

What is wood?

[guitarslinger21]

Problem:

Instead of "This $10,000 amp sounds perfect."

It's "This $4,000 modelling rig sounds pretty good, but the audience can't tell."

I'll give this paradigm shift 3 more months at most. TGP will revert back to the "me" attitude that has always made guitar the coolest instrument to play. I'm sure Hendrix would be rocking at least 8 Marshall stacks if he was still touring today.

[57special]

I loves me my VT40...damn the crowd and full speed ahead, you black emperor!

:D Don't have one any more, but I love them! Bastard child of a tweed Bassman.

[jzucker]

what is foh?

[andybaylor]

what is foh?
Front of House

[clothwiring]

what is foh?

I read it as "fool" and they people are always saying "I care about the fool".

:)

[Bulldog]

you mean that not everyone likes Ampeg? What is wrong with this world?


How can you not love them with amps like this?

http://www.buysellcommunity.com/uploads/011108/ww1/srtcflmyvbva.jpg

I could care less about your 10,000 boutique amp or your 4,000 modeling rig. Gimmie one of these little guys, and I'll show you how I roll.

[ChickenLover]

IMO, things usually 'evolve' and sometimes it takes repitition before things sink in.

So imagine some guy that must play his booteek 100W without an attenuator. They gig...they have problems. Hasn't sunk in yet. He takes some friends out to see another band. Friends complain that it's too loud and sounds like shit...dude is only using a 50W. So they leave that club and go to another because of all the friend's/girlfriend's complaints. Volume is good...dude is using a Deluxe Reverb...band sounds 100x better than the earbleed band from before and everyone is enjoying themselves (club is 3x as full too).

Unfortunately...the above has to happen several times before it FINALLY sinks in.

[guitarslinger21]

hmm.

in my experience:

guy with REALLY expensive 100 watt head = adjusted correctly, and sounds awesome b/c he knows what he's doing.

guy with modeller = I can't hear it b/c mids are totally scooped.




I can't speak for the Axe FX though, so whatever.

[TieDyedDevil]

I have more noticed the dearth of newbs more than anything else. Of course that is the lifeblood of any forum, but really kids, some of these posts -- what is crunch ? what is a Les Paul ? I mean really, do so many of them have no friends at all in real life ?

I don't think dearth means what you think it means, unless you're saying that all the old-timers are asking clueless questions and we need some newbies to raise the level of discourse... :dunno

[CarlosJesena]

hmm.

in my experience:

guy with REALLY expensive 100 watt head = adjusted correctly, and sounds awesome b/c he knows what he's doing.

guy with modeller = I can't hear it b/c mids are totally scooped.




I can't speak for the Axe FX though, so whatever.

My experience with a lot of guys on the scene over here:

Guy with really expensive guitar, peds and amp = many times is a rich noob who, on gear, spends money like water. Sounds awful cause he spends 99% of his time looking for gear and the remaining 1% learning intros

Guy with a workhorse guitar (ie. basic Strat, LP etc) a decent group of pedals and the house amp = a pro who sounds absolutely awesome because he knows what he's doing.

[fredgarvin]

...I originally joined TGP back in late 2004...and then I changed my name to protect the innocent.:roll I have always been fascinated with the way the membership and posting climate has changed over that time period...

...I don't like listening to loud bands crank their 100 watt amps at the expense of the sound of the band or the mix...it never sounds good to me...it's just loud...unless it is a huge venue...I don't like to play loud either...I gig at fairly low volume's so I don't need a tube amp...those were for back in the "olden-days" when Jim Marshall was building PA speaker cabinets>:JAM

...I haven't played through a tube amp in a year...I have an Axe-Fx Ultra...so Jarret is right...it's about the FOH...also, classic rock guitar tones don't really fit into my vision anymore...so...let's go digital, it's 2009!:D
As the median age on tgp lowers, this pov will become more prevalent. I prefer my tube amp, yes, but my modeler sounds pretty good too and who but me notices the differance? going digital is the path the world is taking, obviously.

[buddaman71]

If you are a pro/semi-pro player who uses a PA, the FOH sound is ALL that matters to the audience.
I have heard many rigs that sound good onstage and are thin/harsh/WAY too gained out in the FOH mix.

Players who don't care about the end product and only want to get off on their own on-stage sounds are the ones who perpetuate the arrogant, show-off guitarist stereotype.

[derekd]

I'll give this paradigm shift 3 more months at most. TGP will revert back to the "me" attitude that has always made guitar the coolest instrument to play. I'm sure Hendrix would be rocking at least 8 Marshall stacks if he was still touring today.

Not a chance. He would be 66 years old, bald, and playing jazz in small clubs in NYC.

[derekd]

I dont see a shift at all.

Obviously you've just bought yourself some kind of modeller, thus the thread...which one did you buy?

I've been using modellers for 10 years, all the Pods, the Pod XT, the Tonelab, Yamaha Magicstomp...didn't stop me from buying a boutique amp and some boutique pedals.

Modellers are cheap, except the Axe-Fx of course....the others cost the same as one "famous" boutique pedal, so they're worth buying, and they sound pretty cool.

Well, I see a shift everywhere of getting away from 100 watt heads and stacks. Small amp builders are ubiquitous. More and more amps seem to feature sound reinforcement/recording friendly features like power cut or soak switching and line out options.

The days of needing to get a _____(fill in the blank) head and dime it to paint peeling volumes to get a good tone, seem to be a thing of the past. If you are running off bar customers because you are too loud, that is just bad business.

Like mama, if FOH ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[whitehall]

I don't think dearth means what you think it means, unless you're saying that all the old-timers are asking clueless questions and we need some newbies to raise the level of discourse... :dunno.
That's too funny, I was having an AARP moment. I meant to say plethora. As a dearth would indicate a scarcity. :o

[Miles]

I've been around TGP for a while now. Sometimes I leave for a while and then come back and its always kind of been the same. Really focused on getting boutique gear that sounds good to the player and sort of damn anything else. It didn't really seem to matter which amp or guitar or pedal of the month was in vogue at the time, the sentiment was always the same. "Will this gear sound and feel right to me when I play it" I'm 100% guilty of this myself in the past.

Now I'm seeing this slow undertone of a paradigm shift. I think it started as modeling became more and more accepted or at least that appears to be where it started and then the advent of the Axe-FX really propelled it forward. I think in larger part its also coupled with the explosion of P&W gigs and the different approach they require.

Less and less I'm seeing people say things like "this <gear> just didn't give me the mojo/vibe I was looking for when I played it" or "I need a 4x12 behind me pumping loud or the gig is no good" and now I'm starting to see more and more sentiments like "People really seem to like how this sounds in FOH" or "this FRFR monitor or IEM is giving me almost the same sound that's coming out of the mains"

I kind of see it as two things happening:

1. Players are becoming aware of the importance of how they are perceived in the FOH mix
2. Players are starting to think about the audience's enjoyment/participation of the performance

When you get to the root of the it sounds like the focus has started to shift from the thought paradigm of 100% "me" to now actually thinking about and including "them" in playing and gear choices.

I find this fairly remarkable. Thoughts?


I agree 100% and I've experienced it as well. I have shifted to digital rigs for my live shows and I now FAR prefer it for live use. So much more consistent, easier to create demos with tones that I can easily re-create live, and running direct has this incredibly clean FOH mix that I really favor.

As far as the boutique stuff goes, I think they are great for what they do, but I have no real vested interest or anything to gain from owning a piece of that kind of equipment. I like to use a different kind of tool, that's all.

I just find having a library of great sounds so helpful and inspiring to the creative process. If I want something really raunchy for a given tune, I can find it, if I want something very prototypically huge sounding for another tune, I've got it. I can dial this sound in for demos and recording, and find it instantly and tweak it just right for live use.

I have also noticed the shift in thought and it actually re-attracted me to the gear page. Only focusing on boutique, handwired, or all valve gear really paints oneself into a corner. There are so many other great tools out there to be had

[Schafrocks]

I dunno. I play through a JCM800 2204 and some pedals. I always work with the soundman to get a good tone out front. The FOH is only as good as the guy running it. You can be getting stomping good tone or bad through the PA no matter what you play through if the guy doesn't know how to dial in a good guitar sound. Many people I've seen bury it in the mix. I still use the Marshall through a 4X12 or 2 depending on the venue, miced with and sm57 and can assure you I get good tone out front. I only turn up loud enough to hear over the drummer. BTW, I own a couple modelers too.

You never know though, one of these days I might change. However, right now, I like the tone I'm getting.

Schaf

[Jarrett]

and 3. Fewer venues are willing to acommodate or tolerate prima dona guitarists who want to get "their tone" at the expense of the overall musical experience for band and audience alike.

Maybe we're (collectively) getting a clue...

I think you are right. I bet venues calling for lower stage volume is also contributing to it as well. There are probably several factors all working together. Whatever it is, I'm glad to see it going that way.

[TieDyedDevil]

.
That's too funny, I was having an AARP moment. I meant to say plethora. As a dearth would indicate a scarcity. :o

:AOK

Believe me, I understand. I'm having one of those weeks... :(

[Lucidology]

A 100 watt amp is more about achieveing about a certain kind of clean tone
then playing super loud IMO ...
A kind of clean you can't get with less watts ...
There are those of us who use 100 watt amps for this purpose ...

(at least this has been my experience ...)

[Wagster]

A 100 watt amp is more about achieving about a certain kind of clean tone
then playing super loud IMO ...
A kind of clean you can't get with less watts ...
There are those of us who use 100 watt amps for this purpose ...

(at least this has been my experience ...)+1

Sometimes a 100watt amp is needed when you need a big and bold sound.Plus there usually is only a 3db difference between a 50 and 100watt amp.Although the perceived volume can sound a little louder.

[tonedaddy]

Well, I see a shift everywhere of getting away from 100 watt heads and stacks. Small amp builders are ubiquitous. More and more amps seem to feature sound reinforcement/recording friendly features like power cut or soak switching and line out options.

The days of needing to get a _____(fill in the blank) head and dime it to paint peeling volumes to get a good tone, seem to be a thing of the past. If you are running off bar customers because you are too loud, that is just bad business.

Like mama, if FOH ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

I agree, good points.

Stick around TGP long enough and you'll see tide shifts come and go. First time I lurked on TGP it was part of the PRS Forum, and there were many, many threads predicting the end of tube amps as Line 6 was supposed to lead a paradigm shift to modeling. I had printed some of them out back then to make it easier to read off-line, and just found them a few months ago. Had to laugh at how we all were floating with the winds of change.

So what happened next?
About every 2 years, a shift moving to something else:

A huge bunch of new tube amp offerings.
Then a bunch of solutions to drop the volumes of those tube amps.
Then a huge bunch of small tube amp offerings.
Now a huge bunch of folks using Axe-Fx solutions.

And all the while during those shifts there was a whole separate pedal/effects explosion building on the shifts above.

What will happen next?

Who knows?
It's been a decade or more since we drug rack systems around, right?
So we'll probably bring them back into style, and we'll do that whole thing again.
:D

Every shift builds on the previous ones as the knowledge gained gets incorporated into the next solutions.
I've seen too many "with this piece of kit, this is the only solution you'll need to"......come and go over the years.
Unfortunately, still have way too many of them boxed up waiting for them to come back into style.....
;)

The future hasn't been invented yet (and I mean that literally).
There's some guy tinkering away on a bench somewhere that will get many folks moving to something else within a few years.
And being the gear sluts we are, we'll buy it, of course.
:AOK

Meanwhile, there's a whole 'nuther universe of players that have never heard of TGP and never will, and they'll be out there practicing/gigging with who knows what....

[cswanston]

+1

Sometimes a 100watt amp is needed when you need a big and bold sound.Plus there usually is only a 3db difference between a 50 and 100watt amp.Although the perceived volume can sound a little louder.

I've heard that, but I wonder what the volume difference is between a 50 watt amp in its sweet spot and a 100 watt amp in its sweet spot? I think it's more than 3 db. I have a 65 Dual Showman with 4 6L6s. I also have a Mesa Boogie MkIIB that toggles between 100 and 60 watts. I also have a TOL 50, Peavey Classic 50, Traynor YCV 50, Rivera Chubster and Carvin Nomad. The Fender and the Mesa have to be a lot louder than these other amps before they start sounding good.

I know most guys with 100 watt amps go for them because of the clean headroom and the big, chimey cleans. Joe Bonamassa's rig includes a pile of Marshall Silver Jubilees.

But, Bonamassa's rig also includes a plexiglass shield.

Being the guy who collects the money at the end of the night, I know how pissed owners get about volume. It costs them money. When the chicks leave (with their hands over their ears), the guys leave, and the money leaves with them. It's a pretty simple formula. The owners know it, and they don't like paying guys who just cost them money.

Bartenders don't like it. They get hoarse from yelling all night, and it costs them money, too. When guys can't talk to chicks, they can't ply them with alcohol and try to sound real cool. If the guys don't think they're within striking distance of a score, they're not going to tip the bartender to flex their classy financial muscles, and they're not going to celebrate their big night when they leave with the chick by tipping the bartender big. When the bartenders don't like it, they complain to the owner, and now he has a headache to deal with. Or they simply tell the person who fills out the rotation to leave your band off of it.

Because I'm the guy who conveys the message from the owner, I've heard every argument in defense of volume. The ones I love are the guys who argue that they're not too loud. They don't understand that when the man with the checkbook says it's too loud, it's too loud. They are closely followed by the guys with the 60, 80 or 100 watt amps who refuse to adulterate the purity of their tone by doing any of the following: (1) using an attenuator, (2) using a pedal instead of the volume knob for overdrive, (3) turning their amp's volume knob below "7," or (4) bringing a smaller amp.

Some of them are very sincere and and truely tone hounds. They go to Allman Brothers, Government Mule and Derek Trucks concerts and rest their chins on the stage and meditate on every note all night long. I get it. But too loud is too loud, even if the tone is to die for. The chicks don't care, and they'll leave, and then so will the money--in the pockets of the guys who leave because there are no chicks there. Then we're kicked off the rotation. Again.

A few years ago, I opened for a band that was really, really good. My band played for close to an hour, and the house was rocking (mostly because we did good songs and didn't butcher them too badly). The house had a big stage, with bright stage lights so that you couldn't see past the second row of the audience. Though the headlining band had more accomplished musicians, when I doubled back after packing out, the place was almost empty. The band couldn't see it, though, because of the lights. The sound guy looked at me and laughed. He slid the knobs up and down, and there was no discernible effect on the volume because the amps were cranked way beyond the ability to bring them down with the pa. He told me (leaning in and screaming) that people started leaving three songs into the show.

I'll never forget the looks on those guys' faces when the lights went up, and they saw where there used to be more than 500 people, there were now less than 50--maybe less than 30. The next year, my band headlined, and the ther band didn't play at all.

Which begs the time-worn question, if pure tone is thrown down in the middle of a forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it still make a sound?

[cswanston]

When you get to the root of the it sounds like the focus has started to shift from the thought paradigm of 100% "me" to now actually thinking about and including "them" in playing and gear choices.

Amen, brotha!

In every argument I've heard from a player in defense of a volume complaint, "me," "my," "mine," or "I" appears every fourth or fifth word.

[tjmicsak]

These days it doesn't matter if you are running a modeler or using a tube amp and pedals. The cabs face towards the back of the stage if they are used. Everyone is using in-ear molds and can't hear any more than what frequency range they produce balanced with wing low frequency monitors crossed over at 80 Hz. EVERYTHING is FOH. Over time there is a development of a "reference" so they just get used to knowing what's out front is good based on that reference. But the sound is pretty much all out front. Concerts these days sound remarkably good. At least the headliners. Starter acts might do the same but often run direct amps and sometimes not more than two mics on the drums. Definately makes a huge difference in the sound quality when the stage becomes the studio so to speak.

[Lucidology]

I've heard that, but I wonder what the volume difference is between a 50 watt amp in its sweet spot and a 100 watt amp in its sweet spot? ...

Don't think you can actually pin-point a mutually agreed upon sweet spot ...
It would all depend upon one's taste in a clean tone ...

My tastes when it comes to cleans are anti-breakup at any cost ...
thus higher wattage amps .. thou there are some 50 watters I've played that have a lot of headroom ..

IN fact, I never look for any kind of sweet spot ...
just tone that doesn't break up even if I hit the strings hard ...

[VaughnC]

Don't think you can actually pin-point a mutually agreed upon sweet spot ...
It would all depend upon one's taste in a clean tone ...

My tastes when it comes to cleans are anti-breakup at any cost ...
thus higher wattage amps .. thou there are some 50 watters I've played that have a lot of headroom ..

IN fact, I never look for any kind of sweet spot ...
just tone that doesn't break up even if I hit the strings hard ...
:agreeunwanted breakup is just as bad as not having it when you need it. However, I like my gigging amp to give me what I call a "strained clean" sound without the amp actually breaking up...if that makes any sense? Without that bit of strain, a clean amp can sound sterile...and I have yet to play anything non-tube that does that non-distorted strain thing, the way I like to hear it, like the right tube amp.

To achieve that goal, I ended up designing and building a homebrew tube amp with that "strained clean" sound in mind, but at the right volume for my band...and I think I've achieved my goal with a pair of 6L6's running at about 45 watts into a 12/10 speaker arrangement. So, I now have my strained, non-distorted cleans gigging amp as a rig platform, add a homebrew OD pedal to take it over the top, a dab of delay pedal here & there, and it works for me.

The bottom line is though...a 50-100 watt amp turned down almost always sounded better to me than a 20-30 watt amp cranked. And speaker attenuators always sounded to me like they choked the life out of an amp. But, like they say, that's subjective, and your mileage may vary.

[shredtrash]

I think the bottom line is this: If you gig regularly, you need to be volume conscious, period. Not only do you need to do this for the establishment management, but you need to do this for the audience. However you get there, while still being able to produce the tone you want, is up to you. For me, amps under 20 watts work well but that's just me. Heck, the other night I played a medium-sized club with a 6 watt amp unmiced while the drummer played with brushes and the club loved us. They don't care what you play, as long as you don't drive customers out of the bar. I love rockin' out as much as the next guy but you can play with intensity at any volume if you know what you're doing.

[RocksOff]

Heh. There's nothing new about low wattages and modellers. A decade ago and since, bands I've been in have used low wattage amps when playing bigger tours. With pro sound reinforcement, larger amps are not required. However, modellers are often paired with valve amps... not used alone. It isn't a matter of FOH sound completely. Digital doesn't have the same feel as a valve amp. The give... the reponse... they simply aren't there with modellers. A good player requires a certain feel to perform their best. Now, what that feel may be is totally dependent on the player... but I would think that it is hard to disagree with the fact that immediate response is important. I think those who don't understand the the immediacy of a good valve amp just haven't experienced it. That being said, once that signal is routed to FOH it doesn't make all the difference in the world if it is run thru modelling gear to make it more manageable by the sound engineer. Oftentimes, the valve signal mixed well with the modelling signal is quite nice... though sometimes not preferred based on the style of music. As for me, there is just no substitute for the juicy semi cleans of the likes of a nicely levelled AC30, for example. But that's just me, though to be fair I have tried both.

[Tone_Terrific]

Heh. It isn't a matter of FOH sound completely. Digital doesn't have the same feel as a valve amp. .

This gets said repeatedly but I wonder if it is not overblown.

A responsive amp, at a preferred audio level is nice, but, after you spend some time playing on headphones, with all sorts of different modellers and preamps and/or direct, I think you can adapt quite easily to making the intended music without encountering limitations imposed by the type of gear in use, within reason, of course;).

This assumes that the basic tone is clean enough, or dirty, or effected, or whatevered, to give a ballpark response. For most applications, in a mix situation, your technique should be able to adapt to the slightly less than optimal conditions.

How often is anybody faced with a rig that they 'can't' play through, or that sounds horrible (not just less than ideal), becuse of the technology?

[wstsidela]

Must be a P&W thing.

[jumpnblues]

"[...2. Players are starting to think about the audience's enjoyment/participation of the performance...]"


What's that have to do with anything? ;)


Tom

[Julia343]

Okay let's talk about noise....

A band is playing in one part of the club. They're good, but to talk, people go to the other part of the bar. what's in the other part of the bar? a bunch of people talking and and eventually it gets so loud you can't hear yourself think.

So you pack it up and head to a dance club. They have DJ music that is 1) loud enough that you can't talk to anyone with out yelling and ending up with a hoarse voice for a couple days; 2) the more people yell over the music the louder it gets; 3) Then it gets hard to hear anything more than the beat; and finally you throw in the towel, head directly to the dance floor and forget about talking.

The reasons we girls leave is because: 1) there's a guy there who's being a creep, but if asked "so soon?" when we leave we'll say "it's too loud"; 2) the music selection isn't to our liking; 3) the drinks are lousy.

I know we've left a dance club, then another bar we went to for conversation with only background music -- it got real loud and a real drunk crowd, and we ended up at a loud biker bar because the music was great.

I've been to "blues bars" where the music was "too loud" because some dude was playing his strat through his Blues Jr. and had the presence turned way up to where it sounded like an ice pick in my skull. Only to go to a metal club where the SPL of the band was actually higher but the tonal balance was better.

It seems that it's rocket science to some people about getting a good tone out of a 100W tube amp and a 412 cab at less than jet aircraft engine levels. Answer: Hot Plate (or other attenuator) + EQ + Mitchell Donuts. Know your Fletcher-Munson curves so you can adjust your EQ accordingly. And if someone says "too loud" it may only be one frequency band that's too high and that's usually around 1.5 KHz. Cut that 3 db and you may be good.

Musicians need to understand sound. I've heard pianos, even my own, that were "too loud". Well that was remedied by fluffing the hammers (voicing) on like 5 keys between C and G above A = 440. End of being too loud.

[Brian D]

I've noticed a few threads on the topic recently, and maybe a few more people who are willing to speak out in defense of keeping amp volumes manageable, but I wouldn't say that I've seen a huge shift in thinking. It seems about the same to me.

[Tonefish]

Okay let's talk about noise....

A band is playing in one part of the club. They're good, but to talk, people go to the other part of the bar. what's in the other part of the bar? a bunch of people talking and and eventually it gets so loud you can't hear yourself think.

So you pack it up and head to a dance club. They have DJ music that is 1) loud enough that you can't talk to anyone with out yelling and ending up with a hoarse voice for a couple days; 2) the more people yell over the music the louder it gets; 3) Then it gets hard to hear anything more than the beat; and finally you throw in the towel, head directly to the dance floor and forget about talking.

The reasons we girls leave is because: 1) there's a guy there who's being a creep, but if asked "so soon?" when we leave we'll say "it's too loud"; 2) the music selection isn't to our liking; 3) the drinks are lousy.

I know we've left a dance club, then another bar we went to for conversation with only background music -- it got real loud and a real drunk crowd, and we ended up at a loud biker bar because the music was great.

I've been to "blues bars" where the music was "too loud" because some dude was playing his strat through his Blues Jr. and had the presence turned way up to where it sounded like an ice pick in my skull. Only to go to a metal club where the SPL of the band was actually higher but the tonal balance was better.

It seems that it's rocket science to some people about getting a good tone out of a 100W tube amp and a 412 cab at less than jet aircraft engine levels. Answer: Hot Plate (or other attenuator) + EQ + Mitchell Donuts. Know your Fletcher-Munson curves so you can adjust your EQ accordingly. And if someone says "too loud" it may only be one frequency band that's too high and that's usually around 1.5 KHz. Cut that 3 db and you may be good.

Musicians need to understand sound. I've heard pianos, even my own, that were "too loud". Well that was remedied by fluffing the hammers (voicing) on like 5 keys between C and G above A = 440. End of being too loud.

Wow...sombody's been doing their homework. Great Post!

[playon]

Players are starting to think about the audience's enjoyment/participation of the performance

:jo

[DC1]

I say turn the players loose. Get them to walk out into the front row (or as far as they have cable) so they can hear themselves. Dial in your tone there. not on stage, and match your levels to the unamplified drums. Then work on FOH and monitors.

These simple acts will make such a sound improvement, you will not believe it.


dc