Airline Rant (longish)

[Flyin' Brian]

No I don't work for an airline but know many guys who do, including TGP members, and as a fellow pilot I have the utmost respect for them. Management and customer "service" however....##!!**^$(!!!!

To our great misfortune we had to fly Northwest on this last trip. We got a killer price from Expedia, or so we thought. Unfortunately, the original price didn't quite stay the same. So unlike our usual ride, Southwest, we had surprises.

We couldn't get seat assignments on the 'net so we showed up plenty early for out 6:40 am flight. Lo and behold they had the two of us in middle seats 8 rows apart on both flights! I found 2 seats across the aisle from each other and when I clicked the airport computer to change them I was advised that it would be $15 per seat! Since we had a connection, this was $60, NOT to upgrade but just to change to another coach seat!!!! Then we got charged $25 for two checked bags. Bingo just like that we added $80 to our nice cheap Expedia price. The airlines are dying and what do they do? Everything in their capacity to drive customers away. WTF?? Bring back regulated airlines.

[cvansickle]

I got an e-mail yesterday from American Airlines, saying that effective January 1, there will no longer be a set minimum of frequent flyer miles awarded to short flights. Instead, they'll award actual miles. So, that short hop from Atlanta to Nashville will be only 250 miles...

I'm sure Delta and the other airlines will follow. I imagine that by 2010, the frequent flyer programs will be history.

[Bluedawg]

Yup ...

My last two trips I got hit with the $15 "excess baggage" charges just for checking a bag. :rolleyes: The bag wasn't overweight either. At least I wasn't paying for those trips.

It's not just Northwest, although they're one of my least favorite airlines.

I'm looking forward to the extra charges for my christmas trip. Those will come out of my own pocket.

From what I've heard US Airways is now charging for soft drinks even.

:BITCH

[mge80]

With fares finally approaching the cost of doing business and oil prices at a manageable level, I believe you will see something different in the coming year. While it won't be re-regulation, it will not be what it is today.

However, the dinosaurs of the past (of which Northwest...er...the "new" Delta...is one) will most likely change the least and/or go extinct. Honestly, United is my guess for the first of the dinosaurs to disappear. US Airways is going to implode over the merger that will never happen between the US Airways of old and America West. The company will not survive because of it. American is in a similar boat, although for a different reason. Besides, no one has flown more perfectly good airplanes into the ground than they have, and that never bodes well. Continental is in a pretty good position and should be ok.

Southwest will always be what they are...and will never be what they aren't. A ride from A to B. No expectations, so no disappointments. Alaska is one of the best quality carriers around, but only serve the West, with limited exceptions. Virgin America appeared at the wrong place at the wrong time. Allegiant is also pretty good at what they do, but what they do is different than what anyone else is doing, and so are a VERY niche outfit. However, their niche has made them profitable when even Southwest is not. JetBlue has fallen from their place as media darling and perhaps made a very bad decision to go with the EMB 190s and AirTran needs some big time help to make it back to profitability with their stock trading at around $2. Midwest, a once very good quality company, is also imploding, due in no small part to Northwest buying a large stake in the company, and then farming out the flying to Republic...one of the many contract and "fee for departure" airlines all trying to undercut each other. An ever changing group of which there will be very few survivors. Then there are the handful of carriers, some very good, some not so good, but all lacking the critical mass to make them significant enough to matter.

So...major changes are in the works. The survivors will be in a pretty good position by the end of next year. Unfortunately, the public only wants cheap. And when cheap is what they get, then they complain about it. So, it's a no win situation. In that case, you simply let the bus crowd fall out of the bottom and press on. Or spend 30 years conditioning the public to believe you are cheap (a la Southwest). Unfortunately, no one has that luxury today.

On the other side of the airport, corporate flight departments are scaling back or closing altogether at an unprecedented rate, and fractional/charter business is off in some cases 50% and more, due to the current global financial situation. Who knows what that future holds? All in all there will be a few winners, a few more losers, and a completely different landscape than what you see today. It will be better for those still in the game, both on the company and the customer side, but there will be many who will be forced out of the game for one reason or another. Those left will reap the benefits.

So...there you go. Maybe I should open an "aviation consultant" business...state the obvious...and charge handsome fees for doing so.

[Midnight Lady]

mge80, I like Southwest for the reasons you stated. There is a "rumor" in the biz that Southwest will hook up with a Canadian carrier called WestJet. They are very similar in their policies and prices and this would open up a lot of new business for Southwest. Personally, I hope this happens. It would make my life a lot easier (and my flights a lot cheaper).

FB forgot to mention that BOTH the Northwest flights we were on left late - the first one was 1 hour late, the second one 1 hour and ten minutes.

[mge80]

mge80, I like Southwest for the reasons you stated. There is a "rumor" in the biz that Southwest will hook up with a Canadian carrier called WestJet. They are very similar in their policies and prices and this would open up a lot of new business for Southwest. Personally, I hope this happens. It would make my life a lot easier (and my flights a lot cheaper).

FB forgot to mention that BOTH the Northwest flights we were on left late - the first one was 1 hour late, the second one 1 hour and ten minutes.


If Southwest and West Jet hook up, it will be an alliance of some sort, as opposed to a full fledged merger. I also know of a company that very likely will enter into a similar alliance with Southwest to provide service to Mexico and the Caribbean, which SWA has no interest in serving themselves.

It wasn't all that long ago that the traveling public decried Southwest's "cattle car", "no frills" service when compared to other companies. Now, since other companies have cut back on their services, suddenly SWA is the king of the mountain, for doing no more (or less) than they ever did. Providing a ride from A to B....and convincing the public that they do it for less. Maybe that's true...if you happen to be able to book one of the 5 seats they actually have for sale at that $69 fare.

Truly, if you want to see how it really should be done, fly Alaska. As much as I hate to say it, after my experiences working there, they do the best job of combing the best of both worlds.

But, no matter what the company, there will always be somebody with their tales of woe of a flight they had on a particular airline. Regardless of the actual reasons for the issues, most of which were totally out of their control. The system is completely broken and needs a major overhaul. But the FAA will not spend the money required to bring it into the last century...let alone the current one.

It's been a long night of dog training classes...so I'm out for tonight.:)

[Flyin' Brian]

I agree that the current business plan for airlines is a disaster and I didn't mean to imply that prices were high asd out of line. One of the reasons I like Southwest is because they provide exactly what I want...a ride from A to B...nothing more. What i was railing against was the way it's done...it's akin to retail "bait and switch" routines where you're given a price that's really practically non existent except to get you into the system so that they can upcharge you for everything else.
It's like buying an amp and then having the company say "Oh you wanted tubes and fuse it it too? Wellll that will be an extra charge."
Just give me a price to get me there and stick to it. And don't let me find out that the guy sitting next to me on the right paid 1/2 of what I paid while the guy on the left paid twice as much.

[phoenix 7]

Wow, guys, that's outrageous. Sorry to hear about the bumpy ride!

[macheesmo3]

That is why if at all possible I fly only Southwest or Air-Tran. They have reasonable rates and they both fly close enough to me to be worth it . ( my ex girlfriend is flying in at the end of Nov to Gulfport ,Ms her flight is only $148 round trip , no baggage charges and only like $21 for all the fees)

[mge80]

And don't let me find out that the guy sitting next to me on the right paid 1/2 of what I paid while the guy on the left paid twice as much.

That's the way it is, the way it always has been, and in all likelihood, the way it always will be.

Even on Southwest.

[ScottR]

Southwest is the only airline I fly...they are no frills but you get to pick your seat

[mge80]

And don't let me find out that the guy sitting next to me on the right paid 1/2 of what I paid while the guy on the left paid twice as much.

That's the way it is, the way it always has been, and in all likelihood, the way it always will be.

Even on Southwest.

Pricing and yield management really IS rocket surgery. Anyone who can figure it out and make it work is not mortal. Someone should show you a seat map someday with the actual cost paid for each seat on any given flight. It has far less to do with where the seat is than when, and in what order, it was purchased.

[stratman34]

Sorry about the trouble Brian, but the stories I head from my frequent business traveling friends make yours look pale in comparision.

If I'm paying its Southwest. If the company's paying its Delta. But I really hate to fly. I like planes/flying, I basically just don't like the hassle of an airport. Plus I'm almost 2 hours from DFW or Love Field, so it's a pain to catch an early flight.

[PinoyBoy]

What i was railing against was the way it's done...it's akin to retail "bait and switch" routines where you're given a price that's really practically non existent except to get you into the system so that they can upcharge you for everything else.

I don't follow why it was a bait-and-switch. When you paid for the tickets, didn't you know exactly what you were getting. I fly AA most of the time, and at least with them, I know exactly what I'm getting.


It's like buying an amp and then having the company say "Oh you wanted tubes and fuse it it too? Wellll that will be an extra charge."

The analogy is wrong. When you get an airline seat, you know what you're getting based on fare class (or whatever it's called). Just ask the agent what a YY or AA or F or J or whatever code your ticket carries. When you buy an amp, you also know what you're getting -- tube type, fuse type, etc. Unless of course they advertise the amp as being sold without tubes or fuses. If that is the case, for as long as they are clear about it and the price reflects the missing parts... what's wrong with that?


And don't let me find out that the guy sitting next to me on the right paid 1/2 of what I paid while the guy on the left paid twice as much.

Yield management can be a frustrating thing. Although if you're on the receiving end of a deal, it can be great! I've flown first class on AA many times on an "instant upgrade" fare that is sometimes cheaper than even their "super saver" economy fare.

[Jon C]

I've been a UAL regular for 20 yrs tho thankfully I fly infrequently now... did a round trip DC to Denver last week and to my shock, both flights were on time, service was good, etc. (though of course the conditions on board with cramped seats, etc., are worse than a bus trip in the 1950s, I just hate to fly at all now).

Fare is irrelevant because it was a govt. business fare with no minimums, guaranteed exchange at any time, etc. so not a bargain price given the flexibility.

But from what I'd heard I was prepared for a nightmare and didn't get it luckily (no checked bags, I refuse to do that unless forced at gunpoint).
jc

[clothwiring]

I took JetBlue last fall, no hassle and because the flight was delayed an hour or so they sent me a $25 voucher for my next flight. I lost the voucher when I moved into my house and when I called to book a flight they pulled the voucher up and applied it. I'm pretty easy going and light traveler so all I can say is they treated me well and I'm flying them again here in a few weeks.

[Luke]

Bring back regulated airlines.

In 1977 it cost $1200 p/p to fly NY to Hawaii round trip. In 2001 it cost $550 p/p. Adjusted for inflation, that second flight would have cost maybe $275 in 1977 dollars.

While agree the bait and switch is BS, regulated flights would mean the trip would cost $3000+ today.

[PinoyBoy]

FB -- Sorry to hear about your travel woes but...

What i was railing against was the way it's done...it's akin to retail "bait and switch" routines where you're given a price that's really practically non existent except to get you into the system so that they can upcharge you for everything else.

I don't follow why it was a bait-and-switch. When you paid for the tickets, didn't you know exactly what you were getting? I fly AA most of the time, and at least with them, I know exactly what I'm getting. I also know that if I suddenly wanted something else, it could cost me.


It's like buying an amp and then having the company say "Oh you wanted tubes and fuse it it too? Wellll that will be an extra charge."

I find that analogy to be wrong. When you get an airline seat, you know what you're getting based on fare type (or whatever it's called). Just ask the agent what a YY or AA or F or J or whatever code your ticket implies. When you buy an amp, you also know what you're getting -- tube type, fuse type, etc. Unless of course they advertise the amp as being sold without tubes or fuses. If that is the case, for as long as they are clear about it and the price reflects the missing parts... what's wrong with that?


And don't let me find out that the guy sitting next to me on the right paid 1/2 of what I paid while the guy on the left paid twice as much.

Yield management can be a frustrating thing. Although if you're on the receiving end of a good deal, it can be great! I've flown first class on AA many times on an "instant upgrade" fare that was cheaper than even their "super saver" economy fare.